D.N.A Database

Just Jack

I never could understand why we do not have a national D.N.A database.I also have problems understanding why some people object to same, so please agree with me, or not.

Procrastastudy

Primarily our DNA technology is on par with countries like Kenya. Anything complicated has to be sent to the UK of analysis - there are some fundamental concerns with this not least that commercial labs here could do the work but we won't let them - I'm not sure what the reasoning is.

Next there is some real issues with the emerging case law in both the UK and US - where the DNA databases where established and now there has been some pairing back of them on civil liberties grounds.

Perhaps the most shocking thing though is that there is no legislation dictating how long even non-DNA evidence must be kept. There are a number of cases where the Innocence project here has looked to get evidence and its gone. Yet another issue is how do you regulate access? Do we allow people to have their DNA retested every time there is a new technique available?

Lastly there is a fundamental lack of understanding amongst the public, mainly due to shows like Law and Order, that DNA evidence is irrefutable. The DNA profile that is generally tested is shared by every paternal parent in a man's family - e.g. you have the same profile as your father, grand father, great grand father etc. There was a recent case in the states where it was found that 1 in 1600 people shared the same DNA profile in a particular area. (Please keep the jokes about Cork to a minimum )

Its a much much more complicated subject than just having a database and solving lots of crime.

voter1983

Surely though it would be a start. I'm in favour of a well thought out system to be set up

Procrastastudy

Excellent - shut a couple of hospitals or 2% on income tax?

Maybe point me in the direction of all the unsolved murders currently reliant on DNA testing large swathes of people?

I'm being flippant but what would you be hoping to achieve with it exactly?

krd

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Primarily our DNA technology is on par with countries like Kenya. Anything complicated has to be sent to the UK of analysis - there are some fundamental concerns with this not least that commercial labs here could do the work but we won't let them - I'm not sure what the reasoning is.

Are you sure about that?........I had a friend doing forensic work in a lab in Ireland. I don't know if they were doing DNA testing, but I know it's something that she could have done. She did a lot of DNA work in her masters.

Next there is some real issues with the emerging case law in both the UK and US - where the DNA databases where established and now there has been some pairing back of them on civil liberties grounds.

As a civil liberties issue there are major problems. A DNA database could lead to people being made un-insurable on medical grounds - they may have employment problems etc.

There are similar arguments against things like sex offenders registers. In the wrong hands they become a social network for pedophiles.

Perhaps the most shocking thing though is that there is no legislation dictating how long even non-DNA evidence must be kept. There are a number of cases where the Innocence project here has looked to get evidence and its gone. Yet another issue is how do you regulate access? Do we allow people to have their DNA retested every time there is a new technique available?

DNA testing now is incredibly accurate. Older testing could give good probabilities. But I've seen a new device that can be plugged into the USB socket on a laptop and it can take a perfect sample, and store it digitally. It's very neat how it works, and it takes multiple samples, so it's a 100% accurate.

There was a recent case in the states where it was found that 1 in 1600 people shared the same DNA profile in a particular area. (Please keep the jokes about Cork to a minimum )

Yeah, there's been a few scandals in the states. There was a lab, where the lab owner wasn't even bothering to do tests, just sending results in. Thousands of people were convicted on the results.

Its a much much more complicated subject than just having a database and solving lots of crime.

There's a high-profile unsolved Irish murder. That I've heard a few times. Even heard a guard in a radio interview hinting the same thing. In this case. The guards believe they know who the murderer is. And they have DNA evidence but they can't compel the person to give a sample.

Procrastastudy

krd wrote: »

Are you sure about that?........I had a friend doing forensic work in a lab in Ireland. I don't know if they were doing DNA testing, but I know it's something that she could have done. She did a lot of DNA work in her masters.

Very sure - my Kenya comment is flippant but the state lab is using very outdated profiling - I'd have to dog out my notes to tell you exactly what state we're at. As you know I'm a student at GCD which Run the innocence project here so I've been lucky enough to sit in on some of the lectures.

krd wrote: »

As a civil liberties issue there are major problems. A DNA database could lead to people being made un-insurable on medical grounds - they may have employment problems etc.

There are similar arguments against things like sex offenders registers. In the wrong hands they become a social network for pedophiles.

A DNA database could be used to exonerate people so the innocence projects are generally in favour of them. My view id we would need to solve some pretty fundamental issues before we thought about going down this road. Putting cost aside - we need to address evidence storage in general.

krd wrote: »

DNA testing now is incredibly accurate. Older testing could give good probabilities. But I've seen a new device that can be plugged into the USB socket on a laptop and it can take a perfect sample, and store it digitally. It's very neat how it works, and it takes multiple samples, so it's a 100% accurate.

What sample; Y-STR, mitochondrial? I've made no comment on the accuracy - people just think a DNA profile is unique. DNA profiling is only taken on the male side (excuse my lack of technical clarity) so its very easy for an 'accurate' profile to point to a number of different people. The other issue is how the comparison sample is taken.

krd wrote: »

Yeah, there's been a few scandals in the states. There was a lab, where the lab owner wasn't even bothering to do tests, just sending results in. Thousands of people were convicted on the results.

These weren't scandals just flaws in believing that DNA evidence is the silver bullet.

krd wrote: »

There's a high-profile unsolved Irish murder. That I've heard a few times. Even heard a guard in a radio interview hinting the same thing. In this case. The guards believe they know who the murderer is. And they have DNA evidence but they can't compel the person to give a sample.

As harsh as it sounds - objectively, an entire database for the odd murder here and there seems an over reaction. Bear in mind people can't be compelled to give samples even where there a database - people on it have a reason to give a sample in the first place - such as convicted criminals.

krd

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Very sure - my Kenya comment is flippant but the state lab is using very outdated profiling - I'd have to dog out my notes to tell you exactly what state we're at. As you know I'm a student at GCD which Run the innocence project here so I've been lucky enough to sit in on some of the lectures.

My friend was working for a private lab who were receiving materials for test from the state.

They were unhappy with the set up. It looked like an Irish croney contract operation. My friend was getting paid very little, and under a lot of pressure. And they eventually walked. But they were unhappy - doing forensic work that could have huge implications for peoples lives is a high stress job.

A DNA database could be used to exonerate people so the innocence projects are generally in favour of them. My view id we would need to solve some pretty fundamental issues before we thought about going down this road. Putting cost aside - we need to address evidence storage in general.

But DNA could also be used to fit someone up. Take someone in for questioning. Give them a glass of water - then pop the glass in an evidence bag...you've got DNA and finger prints.

"Judge...the accused, in a heated frenzy, slaughtered the entire family...then poured themselves a cool and refreshing glass of water...and sat down to survey their handy work......the perfection in its' execution...the fearful symmetries we cannot even imagine.... but the accused made one fatal flaw....in their excitement they left behind the one vital clue that could tie them to the scene of the crime.........Judge....the glass.....the glass.... and we have that glass. DNA, lip and finger prints."

What sample; Y-STR, mitochondrial? I've made no comment on the accuracy - people just think a DNA profile is unique. DNA profiling is only taken on the male side (excuse my lack of technical clarity) so its very easy for an 'accurate' profile to point to a number of different people. The other issue is how the comparison sample is taken.

No. A new box I've seen reported in the papers. It pulls individual DNA strands through a sensor. It does it on several strands, through different sensors, so any errors can be corrected.

As harsh as it sounds - objectively, an entire database for the odd murder here and there seems an over reaction. Bear in mind people can't be compelled to give samples even where there a database - people on it have a reason to give a sample in the first place - such as convicted criminals.

No. But I also don't like the idea that convicted criminals should automatically lose all rights.

The case, I'm not going to mention the name of. The victim was a young middle-class woman. And the person the guards suspect is an upstanding middle-class man. Someone who let passion and anger get the better of them. Not a kid from Coolock - from a dysfunctional family who would crack under questioning - who would be relieved to admit their guilt - who would be relieved to admit guilt for crimes they'd never even committed.

Someone who could afford the flouncing lawyers to flounce in, and say "how dare you......how dare you could even think my client could have anything to do with such a thing.......how dare you...and if you want your careers to go anywhere you better think about how you're conducting this investigation.......you're barking up the wrong tree...and you know what happens to dogs....yes...dogs... who keep barking..up. the. wrong. tree. " .....snort and a flounce out the door.

Procrastastudy

KRD you keep underestimating the complexities of DNA testing. We don't get a complete profile of someone by testing their DNA - we get a number or markers from half a DNA profile. We then have all the issues of the collected sample.

You cant just take a sample and go bing - thats KRD's sample or Procrast sample.

Victor

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Lastly there is a fundamental lack of understanding amongst the public, mainly due to shows like Law and Order, that DNA evidence is irrefutable. The DNA profile that is generally tested is shared by every paternal parent in a man's family - e.g. you have the same profile as your father, grand father, great grand father etc. There was a recent case in the states where it was found that 1 in 1600 people shared the same DNA profile in a particular area. (Please keep the jokes about Cork to a minimum )

I think that is down to the number of genes checked. Any positive result should have additional genes checked to ensue, to a reasonable level, that it is a proper match.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/216632.PNG

In the above, if we only tested 1-10, the evidence would point towards the blue suspect, as there is a slight difference in number 5. However, if we add number 11, the difference is much greater and the evidence points to the red suspect. Some minor variations will occur (a) between generations and (b) between the evidence and the offender.

Procrastastudy

Victor wrote: »

I think that is down to the number of genes checked. Any positive result should have additional genes checked to ensue, to a reasonable level, that it is a proper match.

https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/attachments/2160/216632.PNG

In the above, if we only tested 1-10, the evidence would point towards the blue suspect, as there is a slight difference in number 5. However, if we add number 11, the difference is much greater and the evidence points to the red suspect. Some minor variations will occur (a) between generations and (b) between the evidence and the offender.

It doesn't work like that. If I recall correctly its 11 pairs tested on a Y-STR profile - I don't believe the test is set up to check additional pairs. The issues generally centre around the collected sample though. There is no way* to convert between samples so thats the first issue for a database - what sampling method do you use?

The other issue is if you have someone with the sam Y-STR profile it doesn't matter how many pairs you check - the profiles are identical. I'll have to dig the case name out for you but the facts were as follows. (Not reading for the faint hearted so be warned).

A house was broken in to and a woman and her daughter raped. The mother was killed and the daughter left for dead. The daughter (8 - 10 years old) was an eyewitness to the fact that it was her uncle. Semen tested from the woman and child gave a Y-STR profile match for the uncle and he was convicted. The local innocence project (I'll have to dig out the state) exonerated him and produced evidence to show that 1 in 1600 (not exact figure) people in that town had the same Y-STR profile (it wouldn't have mattered how many pairs they checked they were identical profiles). They did catch the guy in the end - again though a different sampling method but I can't remember which. Sorry for the lack of details.

*this year there has been some movement on this but its at the very early stages.

Procrastastudy

Right - going though my notes and found the lecture notes so I can correct myself a bit.

STR testing is the testing done in Ireland and the profile is indeed unique to an individual. The issue is it can't be used for hair unless there is the fleshy root and can be difficult to use in cases where there is a mixture of male and female DNA (rape cases).

YSTR - Tests only male DNA - issues as highlighted in my previous posts in that there can be people with the same Y-STR profiles.

Mitochondrial - used for Bones, hair and teeth. Males and females have the same MtDNA profile as their mother.

The case was that of Clarence Elkins and it was 1 in 570 people shared the same YSTR profile.

The majority of databases are STR so in cold cases where MtDNA would be used the database isn't much use and in rape cases its of limited use depending on the sample.

If you google Mark Godsey you should find the Ihio Innocence Project Blog and some very accessible info.

Just Jack

Thanks to all. I am still of the opinion that it would be a good thing to have.
However, I can see that it is not as easy as I had imagined. While I do not watch the tv shows mentioned, I will admit that my understanding was flawed.

amen

I am still of the opinion that it would be a good thing to have

Based on that should a DNA sample of every person the country be obtained at birth and stored? That way we could identify the person who committed a crime later in life.

Just Jack

amen wrote: »

Based on that should a DNA sample of every person the country be obtained at birth and stored? That way we could identify the person who committed a crime later in life.

Yes I believe so, but that is only an opinion,fell free to disagree.

Procrastastudy

I suggest you watch Gattaca

Pkiernan

Just Jack wrote: »

I never could understand why we do not have a national D.N.A database we do not allow the police to regularly search our homes for evidence of crimes we might have committed or might be likely to commit. I also have problems understanding why some people object to same, so please agree with me, or not.

Now how do you feel.

juan.kerr

amen wrote: »

Based on that should a DNA sample of every person the country be obtained at birth and stored? That way we could identify the person who committed a crime later in life.

Why should we discriminate against people born in Ireland? What about foreign nationals, illegal immigrants etc - why do they get a free pass?

Procrastastudy

To be fair the Constitution provides for inviolability of the dwelling. Interesting to ponder if this would violate our right to the Person or the unenumerated right to bodily integrity.

Just Jack

Pkiernan wrote: »

Now how do you feel.

I am sorry.I genuinely do not understand you.Are you asking do I agree that the Garda should be allowed to search my home? Yes I do. I know that I have not, nor do I intend to commit crime.Also I believe that they do have that right presently with court approval. While I know that I am not a criminal, the Garda do not, and may need to check. As a law abiding citizen, and I like to think, a reasonable man.I believe that full cooperation with Garda is the best and quickest way to free them up to catch the real criminals. Are you suggesting that an honest man has reason to fear the Garda?