Shooting in Times Square

Scioch

You what bugs me ? I've used cameras before, I've filmed things on my phone. Its not that hard to hold the thing straight ffs.

hoochis

Can anyone on here honestly say that they would not empty a clip into someone lunging at them with a knife? These cops probably have families to go home to after their shifts finish.

Pappa Charlie

El Horseboxo wrote: »

You are actually wrong. I completed my firearms training program in the US recently and i'm not that long involved in law enforcement. You are trained to aim for the center mass. 2 successive shots, assess the threat and take appropriate action. There is no shoot to kill policy. There is a shoot to stop or eliminate the threat policy however. Which can result in the death of the perpetrator.

I haven't read about this incident but when any officer draws his gun it is not a decision taken lightly and is based on their training involving force continuum. At times what can seem like overkill is because you are trained to shoot until the threat is over. And very often people can be shot a few times before they realize they are shot. This ain't the movies. People don't fall over when shot. Especially people charged up on adrenaline or drugs. People tend to only react and fall down when they see blood. So when you shoot the center mass and the guy is still standing coming at you, you are trained to keep firing. I hope to never need my weapon and despite my training i can't comment on anything with real life experience. But from my training program i understand more why a person can often be shot 6 or 7 times.

Why not tazor him, surely there was a policeman or emergency services unit working around times square with a tazor. it went on for a good few minutes. Its extremely hard to justify 12 rounds. Justice Barr would love this one and might be right this time! First question - Did they offer him any Fags?

mikom

Dead Man Walking wrote: »

I dunno. they said he was smoking it, so was probably through a glass pipe bong which i think makes it 4 times stronger and could account for why they had to be sure he was down

Please....

Local-womanizer

IrishFeeney92 wrote: »

Your Completely wrong, your taught to aim low. shoot to kill is a last resort. Them cops only tried pepper-spray, could/should have shot him in the leg or arm

There not, a cop here is trained to shoot for the biggest target area, ie the torso. It is the same with any armed force in the world.

The only way to take him down without shooting would result in the cops getting hurt or passer-bys.

There would be up roar if the man was allowed to stab a civilian before being apprehended.

I urge anyone here who has never fired to weapon, to ask anyone with any experience with weapons, is it easy to take a shot at someones arm or leg when they are moving about, the answer will be the same.

sunflower27

Excessive.

elefant

A man lunges towards you with a knife in a place as hugely crowded as Times Square.

I'd have shot him until he definitely was no longer a danger, and in a way so as not to endanger any innocent civilians. I don't blame the police at all in this situation.

SamHarris

Important bit most seem to have missed -

According to the police, officers pepper-sprayed Kennedy six times but he held onto the knife throughout, wiping the spray off his face. Finally, he lunged at police and two officers shot him in the torso, police said.

Also, it went on for 7 blocks. It wasnt like he just whipped out a knife and two guys decided to shoot him.

syklops

CardBordWindow wrote: »

It would be one thing to fire several shots, if he had a gun. Not much he could do at distance with a knife!

He lunged at a cop. Also at distance he could have thrown it. An 11" knife could seriously injure someone.

Shryke

SamHarris wrote: »

Important bit most seem to have missed -

According to the police, officers pepper-sprayed Kennedy six times but he held onto the knife throughout, wiping the spray off his face. Finally, he lunged at police and two officers shot him in the torso, police said.

Also, it went on for 7 blocks. It wasnt like he just whipped out a knife and two guys decided to shoot him.

Hardcore wasn't he?

syklops

Local-womanizer wrote: »

I urge anyone here who has never fired to weapon, to ask anyone with any experience with weapons, is it easy to take a shot at someones arm or leg when they are moving about, the answer will be the same.

One of the upshots(no pun intended) of moving here, is I get to regularly shoot guns which are not just restricted in Ireland but impossible to get your hands on. My favourite so far is the Glock 17 9mm handgun. I have to say, I never would have guessed that hand gun shooting would be so hard. Having fired shotguns since I was about 15, moving onto assault rifles when I was 17, upto, ahem, larger calibres such as a 40mm a few times, I consider myself reasonably experienced. The first time I fired a hand gun my target looked like I had taken a shotgun to it. My rounds were scattered all over the target. That was in a quiet setting, against a static target, with all the time in the world. Admittedly I have gotten better.

My point is, if people knew how tough hitting a moving target was, when that target is weilding a knife, they wouldnt be so quick to shout "excessive!". We have become a bit too used to seeing the likes of Bond and Bourne, and John McClean making impossible shots to take out the bad guy. Real life is quite different.

Hazys

What has to be taken into account is that this happened to be in a very crowded place.

Aiming for a small target like a leg or arm to disarm him, could have disastrous consequences if they missed.

I rather they take the more likely shot on this scumbag than taking a risk, miss and shoot an innocent bystander.

peasant

Dead Man Walking wrote: »

I thought they were trained to shot the torso, aiming for a leg in a crowded street might miss and rickoshea into a civilian

What's Rick O'Shea got to do with it?

Is there an Irish connection?

MadsL

syklops wrote: »

One of the upshots(no pun intended) of moving here, is I get to regularly shoot guns which are not just restricted in Ireland but impossible to get your hands on. My favourite so far is the Glock 17 9mm handgun. I have to say, I never would have guessed that hand gun shooting would be so hard. Having fired shotguns since I was about 15, moving onto assault rifles when I was 17, upto, ahem, larger calibres such as a 40mm a few times, I consider myself reasonably experienced. The first time I fired a hand gun my target looked like I had taken a shotgun to it. My rounds were scattered all over the target. That was in a quiet setting, against a static target, with all the time in the world. Admittedly I have gotten better.

My point is, if people knew how tough hitting a moving target was, when that target is weilding a knife, they wouldnt be so quick to shout "excessive!". We have become a bit too used to seeing the likes of Bond and Bourne, and John McClean making impossible shots to take out the bad guy. Real life is quite different.

Agreed, I've just recently starting shooting at a local range after moving to the US. Hitting a target with a decent grouping with even something as small as Glock 17 9mm is suprisingly difficult. I'm delighted if I can put my hand over the grouping with no flyers at 7 yards. Now up that caliber to something like a .40 or .45 ACP that cops use and it gets much harder. Add in stress and pressure and that 5 inch grouping that looks good in the range is almost impossible to achieve.

El Horseboxo, thank you for your service - be safe.

LoYL

Dead Man Walking wrote: »

That wasn't a justified kill at all

I think you have an axe to grind.

Jester252

They are trained to remove the threat not disable it. If they shot him in the arm or leg he would still be a threat and could lead to an officer getting injured. As for the number of shots, panic maybe, but from all account it was a good shot

LoYL

Shryke wrote: »

Hardcore wasn't he?

Allegedly. Ex hardcore now.

homerjay2005

Dead Man Walking wrote: »

That wasn't a justified kill at all

you threaten the lives of other people, you run the risk to be killed to be honest.

ive no sympathy for anybody who breaks the law and gets killed no matter what the circumstances around it are.

Local-womanizer

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ive no sympathy for anybody who breaks the law and gets killed no matter what the circumstances around it are.

Better tax the car quick so!

Son Of A Vidic

I'm actually surprised he was allowed to travel so far. If he was pepper sprayed as reports suggest, then I'm surprised he wasn't also tasered. But at the end of the day, none of us are in a position to pass judgement, until we find ourselves in a similar situation. It did look like he was getting very near to a large crowd of people who weren't moving away fast enough and something had to give.

ruthloss

Seaneh wrote: »

Why not one shot to disable him rather that what sounded like 8-9 shots and killing him?

I guess because dead men can't sue for damages.

MadsL

ruthloss wrote: »

I guess because dead men can't sue for damages.

Dead men also don't kill or injure other people.

m.j.w

Higher wrote: »

I love the keyboard warriors here.

The man lunged at them with a 12inch blade. In that situation, no matter how trained you are, you would shoot and not stop shooting until the knife wielding maniac was on the ground.

Did people just thank this because he used the term keyboards warriors. How can firing 12 shots in streets packed with civilians be anything but a bad idea. If 10 of the cops all unloaded a full magazine into them firing 60 bullets would that have been justified going on what your saying. Off course not!

washman3

Hats off to those cops.
can we get them on our streets over here..??

minidazzler

m.j.w wrote: »

Did people just thank this because he used the term keyboards warriors. How can firing 12 shots in streets packed with civilians be anything but a bad idea. If 10 of the cops all unloaded a full magazine into them firing 60 bullets would that have been justified going on what your saying. Off course not!

Wait? 10 cops, full magazines, 60 bullets. Very fcuked up math there.

Bad idea, maybe, necessary, definitely.

m.j.w

minidazzler wrote: »

Wait? 10 cops, full magazines, 60 bullets. Very fcuked up math there.

Bad idea, maybe, necessary, definitely.

Sorry for getting the maths wrong but you know what i mean.There is no way they should have fired what they did. It is a bad idea to do it but it was far from necessary.

minidazzler

m.j.w wrote: »

Sorry for getting the maths wrong but you know what i mean.There is no way they should have fired what they did. It is a bad idea to do it but it was far from necessary.

I'm sorry now, but you weren't there, you can't call what is necessary and not, you didn't see the threats that the cops saw. Saying it's "never" necessary just doesn't cut it. 12 rounds is not that much.

darced

This post has been deleted.

vicwatson

CatFromHue wrote: »

They only fired when he lunged at them i.e. when they had no other option as they were in danger.

Don't they have batons?

Jimoslimos

Dead Man Walking wrote: »

Suicide by cop i reckon. lunging at a cop with a knife in america is asking for it

Not sure if it's an urban myth but I've heard that this is sadly a common tactic used those who are suicidal and have family debt but are worried that life insurance won't pay out for conventional suicide attempts

MadsL

darced wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Typical Anti-American post on AH, kneejerk in my book.

How can firing 12 shots in streets packed with civilians be anything but a bad idea

When you prevent an innocent person getting hurt. Is that hard to understand.
Hollowpoints are designed to stay inside what you are shooting at.

m.j.w

minidazzler wrote: »

I'm sorry now, but you weren't there, you can't call what is necessary and not, you didn't see the threats that the cops saw. Saying it's "never" necessary just doesn't cut it. 12 rounds is not that much.

12 rounds to take down one man. I think thats a but much to be fair. Im sure there would be alot of different opinions if one of those 12 rounds hit a civilian. By all means take him down and if he dies he dies but it would not take 12 rounds to do it. They could have fired half that!

MadsL

vicwatson wrote: »

Don't they have batons?

I've just peppersprayed this dude 6 times and he's still walking around with a knife. Here's a stick, off you go.

MadsL

m.j.w wrote: »

12 rounds to take down one man. I think thats a but much to be fair. Im sure there would be alot of different opinions if one of those 12 rounds hit a civilian. By all means take him down and if he dies he dies but it would not take 12 rounds to do it. They could have fired half that!

One officer draws and fires, the others around him would have fired in support. 6 officers, two shots each. Not unusual. Cops would have only fired once there was no risk of casualties behind the target.

Astonishing amount of 'movie firearms' experts here.

edit: I take that back, m.j.w I see you are ex military, would it be policy to 'ration' rounds, or put the threat on the ground?

m.j.w

MadsL wrote: »

One officer draws and fires, the others around him would have fired in support. 6 officers, two shots each. Not unusual. Cops would have only fired once there was no risk of casualties behind the target.

Astonishing amount of 'movie firearms' experts here.

its been said that 2 of the officers fired 6 shots each. thats what i am saying is excessive

MadsL

m.j.w wrote: »

its been said that 2 of the officers fired 6 shots each. thats what i am saying is excessive

What were you trained to do?

Witcher

Lol all the marksmen showing up now 'Why didn't they shoot him in the leg?' What bs:pac:

m.j.w

MadsL wrote: »

What were you trained to do?

I was in the irish army for 5 years so I was trained to do a bit! We were taught that every bullet you fire has to be justified in a court of law and its my opinion that firing 6 rounds each is not justified.

BrokenArrows

Tourists should undergoe a mandatory lessons on how to hold a camera steady!

fasttalkerchat

Man Murdered in Time Square.

Jimoslimos

m.j.w wrote: »

I was in the irish army for 5 years so I was trained to do a bit! We were taught that every bullet you fire has to be justified in a court of law to an accountant and its my opinion that firing 6 rounds each is not justified.

FYP

Local-womanizer

m.j.w wrote: »

I was in the irish army for 5 years so I was trained to do a bit! We were taught that every bullet you fire has to be justified in a court of law and its my opinion that firing 6 rounds each is not justified.

So that's in your opinion, lets see what the Police commissioner and the other relevant authorities have to say on the matter of justification in this case before saying its too excessive shall we.....

Yakult

So cops kill some lunatic who was dangerous and a risk to public safety, yet people are juat given out about the cops? How bad is it really? This fool knew what the consequences would be and I dont think its any harm with one less psycho off the streets.

The same people would give out that the cops didnt kill this man before he stabbed some body, but when they do you still give out.

later12

MadsL wrote: »

Typical Anti-American post on AH, kneejerk in my book.



When you prevent an innocent person getting hurt. Is that hard to understand.
Hollowpoints are designed to stay inside what you are shooting at.

MadsL wrote: »

I've just peppersprayed this dude 6 times and he's still walking around with a knife. Here's a stick, off you go.

MadsL wrote: »

One officer draws and fires, the others around him would have fired in support. 6 officers, two shots each. Not unusual. Cops would have only fired once there was no risk of casualties behind the target.

Astonishing amount of 'movie firearms' experts here.

edit: I take that back, m.j.w I see you are ex military, would it be policy to 'ration' rounds, or put the threat on the ground?

MadsL wrote: »

What were you trained to do?

Oh MadsL is here. No more criticisms of an American. What happened was perfectly legit.

St.Spodo

Apparently there is a shooter on the loose in Texas as well.

MadsL

Blay wrote: »

Lol all the marksmen showing up now 'Why didn't they shoot him in the leg?' What bs:pac:

Wounds to his chest, groin, left arm, and left calf

m.j.w wrote: »

I was in the irish army for 5 years so I was trained to do a bit! We were taught that every bullet you fire has to be justified in a court of law and its my opinion that firing 6 rounds each is not justified.

Were you taught to eliminate the threat? Your first two rounds hit his arm and leg, pause, assess. He is still standing, fire two, chest groin hit. Pause assess. Still standing, two more drop him. Justifiable homicide in the line of duty, your honor.

Mayor Bloomberg added that the officers, “probably acted in responsible ways” when trying to stop “somebody who must have been mentally deranged.” Kennedy had been arrested several times for marijuana possession and was taken to Bellevue for a psychiatric evaluation after he was found knocking over garbage cans in Times Square. A month later he was arrested for threatening police officers with a screwdriver near Lincoln Center.

MadsL

later12 wrote: »

Oh MadsL is here. No more criticisms of an American. What happened was perfectly legit.

Oh, later12 is here, forget having a sensible discussion.

mikom

Stop talking about American things...and let's watch the greatest film ever made.

m.j.w

MadsL wrote: »

Wounds to his chest, groin, left arm, and left calf



Were you taught to eliminate the threat? Your first two rounds hit his arm and leg, pause, assess. He is still standing, fire two, chest groin hit. Pause assess. Still standing, two more drop him. Justifiable homicide in the line of duty, your honor.

If you have shot someone in the leg, arm, chest and groin even if they are still standing it would be very unlikely they were still a threat

MadsL

m.j.w wrote: »

If you have shot someone in the leg, arm, chest and groin even if they are still standing it would be very unlikely they were still a threat

So you would stop shooting? After you have taken the decision to drop him by firing in the first place, why would you change that decision after you hit him four times? Is that really what you were trained to do by the IDF?

Bear in mind these cops have to deal with guys on PCP, meth, crack etc which have a somewhat 'dulling' effect on pain.