Shay Given Retires From International Football

Father Damo

Helix wrote: »

had given gone to united or arsenal he'd have been shipped out very, very quickly

In his prime? Would he fcuk.


Before his football became less than regular at City he was considered amongst the top 3 to 5 in Europe, let alone England.

Felexicon

niallo27 wrote: »

Bonner was a much better keeper than Given ever was, his command of the area was important in his club career, his defence at newcastle, city and villa looked a shambles in front of him and he never really got any blame for this.

Have to disagree here. Shay Given was a genuine world class goalkeeper when he was at his peak.
If he was English, we would have seen the same kind of adoration that has been heaped upon Joe Hart.

the realpigiron

Helix wrote: »

given isn't even the best keeper villa have had in the last 2 years ffs

and friedel was slipping while he was at villa park too

had given gone to united or arsenal he'd have been shipped out very, very quickly

Nonsense, had Given got the opportunity to play at United or Arsenal in his prime he would have proved to be a great success I'm sure. Look at some of the keepers who have played for clubs like Arsenal or United during his prime, Given was every bit as good if not better than most of them. When he was at Newcastle he was one of the top keepers plying his trade in the EPL.

Pity to see him ending his career at an also ran club like Villa where the best he can hope for is mid table mediocrity or failing that a relegation battle. Still he's had a good career overall.

Al Capwned

niallo27 wrote: »

Bonner was a much better keeper than Given ever was, his command of the area was important in his club career, his defence at newcastle, city and villa looked a shambles in front of him and he never really got any blame for this.

Couldn't disagree more....

niallo27

Felexicon wrote: »

Have to disagree here. Shay Given was a genuine world class goalkeeper when he was at his peak.
If he was English, we would have seen the same kind of adoration that has been heaped upon Joe Hart.

He was good keeper, no where near world class imo, you have to ask yourself why didnt the likes of Utd and arsenal go for him if he was world class.

bullvine

Its difficult to call how he would have got on at United or Arsenal, its strange to think that neither seemed ever interested in buying him considering the problems they have had in recent years with their keepers.

KaiserGunner

the realpigiron wrote: »

Nonsense, had Given got the opportunity to play at United or Arsenal in his prime he would have proved to be a great success I'm sure. Look at some of the keepers who have played for clubs like Arsenal or United during his prime, Given was every bit as good if not better than most of them. When he was at Newcastle he was one of the top keepers plying his trade in the EPL.

Pity to see him ending his career at an also ran club like Villa where the best he can hope for mid table mediocrity or failing that a relegation battle. Still he's had a good career overall.

I disagree, im going to get slated for saying this but, Given wasnt better than David Seaman or Jens Lehmann when they were at Arsenal. Fair enough he was better than Almunia but Givens poor command of his area and general poor play under a high ball are reasons why he was never at Arsenal or Man Utd. Helix is correct in saying that he would have been shipped out if he joined either club.

Anyway Im not trying to bad mouth of Given, he was an excellent servant for Ireland and deserves all the praise he got. I did feel that he played too many friendlys and that the younger keepers should have got more of a run out though. Anyway he owes Ireland nothing and I wish him well in the rest of his club career. I just hope that Westwood can somehow manage to break into the Sunderland first team.

bullvine

niallo27 wrote: »

He was good keeper, no where near world class imo, you have to ask yourself why didnt the likes of Utd and arsenal go for him if he was world class.

Have to say I agree with this, very strange he was never picked up, never even interest from him with either of them or Spurs even.

But you can't overstate his brilliance for Ireland. Absolutely brilliant in so many games, especially Holland and Iran in 2001 and Moscow 2011.

the realpigiron

Felexicon wrote: »

Have to disagree here. Shay Given was a genuine world class goalkeeper when he was at his peak.
If he was English, we would have seen the same kind of adoration that has been heaped upon Joe Hart.

I agree with this. I'm not talking about Given being replaced with Hart specifically, by that stage Given was getting older and was more injury prone than the younger Hart. However I believe that if Shay was an English keeper he would've been offered an opportunity at one of the top 4 clubs a couple of years before he went to City.

I'm not being ant-English when I say that, it's understandable that English players would get a better than even break with opportunities in the English Premier League. That's just the way it is.

invinciblePRSTV

the realpigiron wrote: »

Helix wrote: »

good day for villa. given was becoming too injury prone to be having him risk picking up injuries on international dutyo

decent keeper, woefully overrated by many in ireland - great shot stopper but poor command of his area. hopefully this'll eek one last half decent season out of him for us

He wasn't overrated at all. He should've got a move to Arsenal or United when he was touted to go to those clubs, particularly when you think of the poor quality of keepers that have at times played for top clubs like that during his years at the top.

Villa are blessed to have a keeper of his quality, they are essentially an also ran club. Even at this twilight stage of his career his talents are wasted there.

Poor wummery. 2/10 for effort.

the realpigiron

KaiserGunner wrote: »

I disagree, im going to get slated for saying this but, Given wasnt better than David Seaman or Jens Lehmann when they were at Arsenal. Fair enough he was better than Almunia but Givens poor command of his area and general poor play under a high ball are reasons why he was never at Arsenal or Man Utd. Helix is correct in saying that he would have been shipped out if he joined either club.

Well you are admitting he was better than Almunia, so he could've been playing for Arsenal at the time he was getting regular games. Given was also better than some keepers who played for United during his prime years too.

Helix is incorrect in saying he would have been shipped out if he joined either club, there is no way for certain you can prove that either way, it's a purely hypothetical conversation. Therefore he is incorrect to make that claim so baldly.

the realpigiron

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Poor wummery. 2/10 for effort.

Not wummery, just my opinion. 1/10 for observation.

invinciblePRSTV

niallo27 wrote: »

Felexicon wrote: »

Have to disagree here. Shay Given was a genuine world class goalkeeper when he was at his peak.
If he was English, we would have seen the same kind of adoration that has been heaped upon Joe Hart.

He was good keeper, no where near world class imo, you have to ask yourself why didnt the likes of Utd and arsenal go for him if he was world class.

Why would he have went to either Man Utd or Arsenal when he was regularly finishing in or near the top 4 with Newcastle for many years, and getting wages to match, before they went kaput a few years back?

until Ashley took over and NU went into decline there was no chance they were going to sell him for anything less then funny money.

GavRedKing

the realpigiron wrote: »

I agree with this. I'm not talking about Given being replaced with Hart specifically, by that stage Given was getting older and was more injury prone than the younger Hart. However I believe that if Shay was an English keeper he would've been offered an opportunity at one of the top 4 clubs a couple of years before he went to City.

I'm not being ant-English when I say that, it's understandable that English players would get a better than even break with opportunities in the English Premier League. That's just the way it is.

I'm a big Given fan, but your last paragraph is silly. If a player is good enough he'll play regardless of if hes from London or Tokyo.

Given was an excellent shot stopper and performed heroics at times for all the clubs hes been at but hes just a level below some of the best ever in the EPL, the like of Reina, Cech, Schmeichel, Seaman, VDS, Lehmann.

As pointed out above, that was due to his command of his area and aerial ability and in a league that sees alot of lofted balls into the box.

Hart at the moment looks like he'll be a better keeper then Given if he stays fit but theres no doubting if Ireland didnt have Given we would have shipped many more goals, in his 125 caps he most have over 50 clean sheets.

LostBoy101

I thought Shay was an excellent servant for Ireland and he knew how to do the job. I thought his biggest mistake in his career was joining Man City when he was left to rot on the bench, thank god Villa took him up otherwise he wouldn't have been match sharp for Ireland in the qualifiers.

Some of you are saying he was "world class", he wasn't really just a brilliant shot stopper but not the best at high balls.

bullvine

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Why would he have went to either Man Utd or Arsenal when he was regularly finishing in or near the top 4 with Newcastle for many years, and getting wages to match, before they went kaput a few years back?

until Ashley took over and NU went into decline there was no chance they were going to sell him for anything less then funny money.

Newcastle were fairly poor from 2004 onwards, they had about 5 managers after Robson left, around about when he could have went to United or Arsenal in fairness if they wanted him.

Helix

the realpigiron wrote: »

Nonsense, had Given got the opportunity to play at United or Arsenal in his prime he would have proved to be a great success I'm sure. Look at some of the keepers who have played for clubs like Arsenal or United during his prime, Given was every bit as good if not better than most of them. When he was at Newcastle he was one of the top keepers plying his trade in the EPL.

you seem to be unable to tell the difference between being a top goalkeeper and being a top shot stopper

given is the latter, not the former

invinciblePRSTV

bullvine wrote: »

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Why would he have went to either Man Utd or Arsenal when he was regularly finishing in or near the top 4 with Newcastle for many years, and getting wages to match, before they went kaput a few years back?

until Ashley took over and NU went into decline there was no chance they were going to sell him for anything less then funny money.

Newcastle were fairly poor from 2004 onwards, they had about 5 managers after Robson left, around about when he could have went to United or Arsenal in fairness if they wanted him.

Yes but my point was he was an excellent keeper in a very decent NU team for many years, played CL football and presumably was on CL wages. Were strapped for cash Arsenal really going to to pay funny money for Given when they could sign Lehmann for a modest fee? likewise were Man Utd going to spend big on him when they could get VDS for a lot cheaper?

the realpigiron

Helix wrote: »

you seem to be unable to tell the difference between being a top goalkeeper and being a top shot stopper

given is the latter, not the former

I disagree. He was a top goalkeeper in his prime, well up for the job of playing for a top 4 side, given the quality of some of the keepers that played at those clubs during his prime years.

bullvine

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Yes but my point was he was an excellent keeper in a very decent NU team for many years, played CL football and presumably was on CL wages. Were strapped for cash Arsenal really going to to pay funny money for Given when they could sign Lehmann for a modest fee? likewise were Man Utd going to spend big on him when they could get VDS for a lot cheaper?

You make a good point, he was a much more expensive option than VDS or Lehmann at the time but in saying that I'm sure Newcastle wouldnt have turned down a resonable offer at the time if he wanted to leave. They had no problem selling the rest of their good players at the time such as Parker, Bellamy, Jenas, etc.

I just feel if he was that highly rated in the league, he would have moved on. Somebody would have made a big offer for him if they really wanted him.

Augmerson

niallo27 wrote: »

He was good keeper, no where near world class imo, you have to ask yourself why didnt the likes of Utd and arsenal go for him if he was world class.

Well Almunia at Arsenal was obviously a much better GK than Given..

Helix

the realpigiron wrote: »

I disagree. He was a top goalkeeper in his prime, well up for the job of playing for a top 4 side, given the quality of some of the keepers that played at those clubs during his prime years.

he was not a top goalkeeper. he has never had the command of his area or aerial ability that being a top goalkeeper necessitates. he's always been in that second tier, prone to more errors than the top keepers, but errors that go unnoticed by many due to the fact that he manages to pull off some great reaction saves

you cannot, absolutely can not, be a top goalkeeper without owning your area. given doesn't come close

bullvine

Helix wrote: »

he was not a top goalkeeper. he has never had the command of his area or aerial ability that being a top goalkeeper necessitates. he's always been in that second tier, prone to more errors than the top keepers, but errors that go unnoticed by many due to the fact that he manages to pull off some great reaction saves

you cannot, absolutely can not, be a top goalkeeper without owning your area. given doesn't come close

I was never convinced by his kicking either, when you compare it to how good VDS was with the ball at his feet. Also, Reina is almost like a sweeper sometimes when you watch Liverpool.

HalloweenJack

Given was quite simply our best keeper ever, just unlucky he doesn't have any moment which is as identifiable as Packie's save in 1990.

As for his status on the world stage, he was definitely in the second tier of goalkeepers. Because the best goalkeepers don't seem to play in England, I think he was up there among the top tier of Premier League goalkeepers.

However, the likes of Buffon and Casillas are another level above.

the realpigiron

Helix wrote: »

he was not a top goalkeeper. he has never had the command of his area or aerial ability that being a top goalkeeper necessitates. he's always been in that second tier, prone to more errors than the top keepers, but errors that go unnoticed by many due to the fact that he manages to pull off some great reaction saves

you cannot, absolutely can not, be a top goalkeeper without owning your area. given doesn't come close

As another poster said in his prime he was in the top 3 to 5 keepers in the EPL. Yes, he had his limitations but that's where I would've put him. Your assertion that Given "doesn't come close" to have been a top keeper, is simply wrong.

If the price was right he would've been signed by Man U or Arsenal, but they got Van Der Sar and Lehman respectively, for less than Given would've cost at the time as another poster here commented.

noodler

Helix wrote: »

you seem to be unable to tell the difference between being a top goalkeeper and being a top shot stopper

given is the latter, not the former

Aren't you trendy!

Nah, he was a top goalkeeper for a couple of years there in the Prem.

the realpigiron

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Given was quite simply our best keeper ever, just unlucky he doesn't have any moment which is as identifiable as Packie's save in 1990.

As for his status on the world stage, he was definitely in the second tier of goalkeepers. Because the best goalkeepers don't seem to play in England, I think he was up there among the top tier of Premier League goalkeepers.

However, the likes of Buffon and Casillas are another level above.

I'd tend to go along with this assertion. Given was definitely in the top tier of keepers playing in England in his prime.

Sin City

From Twitter:

Packie Bonner suggesting Shay Given retirement may have been forced on him due to lack of communication from the Ireland management team

Sin City

Helix wrote: »

he was not a top goalkeeper. he has never had the command of his area or aerial ability that being a top goalkeeper necessitates. he's always been in that second tier, prone to more errors than the top keepers, but errors that go unnoticed by many due to the fact that he manages to pull off some great reaction saves

you cannot, absolutely can not, be a top goalkeeper without owning your area. given doesn't come close

That was Almunia to a tee alright

Helix

Sin City wrote: »

That was Almunia to a tee alright

sorry, what have i missed? where does almunia come into my posts?

bullvine

We'll never know but I think if a top club wanted him in the noughties they would have just forked out the cash for him, if they really really wanted him that is. Arsenal spent 6m on Richard Wright and Liverpool spent around 11m on Kirkland/Dudek at the same time.

Even Sunderland spent around 9m on Gordon.

Sin City

Helix wrote: »

sorry, what have i missed? where does almunia come into my posts?

Your quote was the perfect description of Almuinia

Cruel Sun

World Class Keeper, not a hope of qualification without him imo.

Ken.

Thanks for all the memories Shay.

Banjaxed82

Cruel Sun wrote: »

World Class Keeper, not a hope of qualification without him imo.

It's all pie in the sky talk. Sure if given had missed the euros through injury and we got the same results, people would be spouting "...if only for given's injury. You never know."

Nobody could have predicted given's shocker tournament.

His influence will be missed, but i don't think it's the worst thing that could have happened going into these qualifiers. Trap's refusal to budge from his style of play will cost us more over the next year than losing our number 1.

aidan24326

Helix wrote: »

had given gone to united or arsenal he'd have been shipped out very, very quickly

That's nonsense. In his prime he was most certainly in the top 2 or 3 keepers in the Prem League over a period of 5 or 6 seasons.
Were he English he'd more than likely have been their first choice keeper for the past decade until Hart came along. He had his weaknesses but then not many keepers don't.

The likes of United and Arsenal definitely flirted with the idea of bidding for him but it never happened for whatever reason. Maybe he was happy in Newcastle and didn't want to leave.

Helix

aidan24326 wrote: »

That's nonsense. In his prime he was most certainly in the top 2 or 3 keepers in the Prem League over a period of 5 or 6 seasons.

no. he wasn't.

he's a highlights keeper. does the snazzy stuff really, really well, but struggles with the bread and butter stuff. that's why he never played for a big club

the realpigiron

Helix wrote: »

no. he wasn't.

he's a highlights keeper. does the snazzy stuff really, really well, but struggles with the bread and butter stuff. that's why he never played for a big club

Nonsense, he was a hard working dedicated professional, who could be relied on to do the bread and butter stuff well, he still is.

The reasons why he didn't get a move to big club in his prime have been referred to here by other posters on this thread; he came with a big price tag back then and clubs like Man U and Arsenal had more inexpensive options with keepers like Van Der Sar and Lehman. The move didn't happen for him at the right time.

Odd to see an Aston Villa fan disparaging one of their better players on here, even if he is in his twilight years now.

He was one of the top keepers in the EPL in his prime, that much is beyond dispute. He was named in the EPL Team of the Season as best goalkeeper in that league twice in 01/02 and 05/06.

Kiwi_knock

Bread and butter stuff, like commanding his box? Which he has never done, he is a great shot stopper but he lacks the other qualities that would have made him a top class keeper.

He has been a credit to Ireland, and will go down as one of our greatest players but I think it is time to look at alternatives. The fact Westwood is Number 2 at Sunderland should not be held against him if you are judging him on skill. He was by far the best keeper in the Championship with Coventry, and he played behind an atrocious defence so he should have no problems playing behind this Irish defence. I have faith that Westwood can be an able replacement for Ireland, and that he will not let us down.

Helix

the realpigiron wrote: »

Nonsense, he was a hard working dedicated professional, who could be relied on to do the bread and butter stuff well, he still is.

he's poor in the air and can't command his box

it doesn't get more bread and butter than that

Mr.Nice Guy

Helix wrote: »

no. he wasn't.

he's a highlights keeper. does the snazzy stuff really, really well, but struggles with the bread and butter stuff. that's why he never played for a big club

Worth pointing out that Liam Miller played for a big club. The idea that because United and Arsenal didn't go for him means something I don't go along with. United and Arsenal have gone for some real duds over the years, especially in the goalkeeping department. Taibi, Bosnich, Barthez, Almunia, Fabianski etc.

Shay Given imo was a world class keeper when he was in his prime. If he'd been playing in an international team that had outfield players of his calibre, he would have been acclaimed with other nation's keepers for he would have been at big international tournaments when he was at his peak.

Given also didn't have, as Hart does, a major sporting media machine behind him. (e.g. 'Hey Iker Casillas, SSN here, what do you think of Joe Hart? Hey Jose, SSN here, rate Hart for us will you?' and so forth). We're even seeing Jack Butland being built up as a superstar at the moment.

the realpigiron

Helix wrote: »

he's poor in the air and can't command his box

it doesn't get more bread and butter than that

I see you ignored the rest of the post where I said he was named keeper of the year in the EPL twice, but sure you would ignore that. No-one is saying Given was the perfect keeper but your negative assessment of him is wrong.

If your assessment of him is anything to go by, then when it comes to football, I'd safely say you haven't a balls notion what you're talking about.

McGrath5

aidan24326 wrote: »

Maybe he was happy in Newcastle and didn't want to leave.

AFAIK Given and his family where very settled in the North East, indicating why he was happy to stay with Newcastle for as long as he did.

Kirby

Helix wrote: »

he's poor in the air and can't command his box

it doesn't get more bread and butter than that

You mean like Lloris? Or Casillas? Or Reina? Or De Gea? Or Hart? Or Buffon? Or Valdes?

All of which are terrible under crosses and rarely come through a crowd of players because of it. Doesn't stop them being good Keepers.

Honestly, if you are saying Given wasn't World Class in his prime because he had a few weaknesses, you are an idiot. Ronaldo has weaknesses. Messi has weaknesses. Everyone does.

Given had a nightmare euro's. He's allowed an off period. He was brilliant in his prime.

Helix

the realpigiron wrote: »

I see you ignored the rest of the post where I said he was named keeper of the year in the EPL twice, but sure you would ignore that. No-one is saying Given was the perfect keeper but your negative assessment of him is wrong.

If your assessment of him is anything to go by, then when it comes to football, I'd safely say you haven't a balls notion what you're talking about.

Will we make a list of former team if the year players for the fun of it?

Helix

Kirby wrote: »

You mean like Lloris? Or Casillas? Or Reina? Or De Gea? Or Hart? Or Buffon? Or Valdes?

All of which are terrible under crosses and rarely come through a crowd of players because of it. Doesn't stop them being good Keepers.

Honestly, if you are saying Given wasn't World Class in his prime because he had a few weaknesses, you are an idiot. Ronaldo has weaknesses. Messi has weaknesses. Everyone does.

Given had a nightmare euro's. He's allowed an off period. He was brilliant in his prime.

Ah here, a keeper having no command of his area and being bad in the air is a fairly major thing. It's like being a defender who can't tackle ffs

Kirby

Helix wrote: »

Kirby wrote: »

You mean like Lloris? Or Casillas? Or Reina? Or De Gea? Or Hart? Or Buffon? Or Valdes?

All of which are terrible under crosses and rarely come through a crowd of players because of it. Doesn't stop them being good Keepers.

Honestly, if you are saying Given wasn't World Class in his prime because he had a few weaknesses, you are an idiot. Ronaldo has weaknesses. Messi has weaknesses. Everyone does.

Given had a nightmare euro's. He's allowed an off period. He was brilliant in his prime.

Ah here, a keeper having no command of his area and being bad in the air is a fairly major thing. It's like being a defender who can't tackle ffs

So does that make all of those keepers rubbish? Who is a good keeper in your opinion than.? I know my keepers, I'm sure I could pick huge holes in their game.

Everyone has weaknesses.

purpleblaa

Why are there people here slagging off Given?

The man has given over 15 years of his life playing for Ireland and has played 125 games for us. He's an absolute LEGEND imo.

So what about the Euros! Who cares. We played the two final teams and a good Croatia. Were we really in with a chance of qualifying from the group?
Was it his finest moment? No. But who played well out there? Maybe Andrews, that's all.

People should be glad that they've been privileged enough to see an Irish legend play for this country for so long.

Shay Given = LEGEND. End of story.

the realpigiron

Helix wrote: »

Ah here, a keeper having no command of his area and being bad in the air is a fairly major thing. It's like being a defender who can't tackle ffs

Go ahead, you don't appear to have much better to be doing. You are spending a lot of your time making disparaging comments about a keeper who was in the top tier of his position in the EPL in his prime - that is undisputed - and now happens to be playing for the club you say you support now. Weird.

aidan24326

Helix wrote: »

Ah here, a keeper having no command of his area and being bad in the air is a fairly major thing. It's like being a defender who can't tackle ffs

You're exaggerating his weaknesses. He may not have been Schmeichel-esque at commanding his area (who is?) but he was by no means as bad as you're making out.