Secularism, Muhammed Cartoons and The Sikh Temple Shooting

Delirium

Nowhere in the article you linked to in the OP does it suggest that the racist in the story was a supporter of Draw Muhammed Day or secularism.

The guy is an angry disturbed young man. He's a former member of a band whose artwork included pictures of white men beating black men. He is affliated with a racist group that are anti-Jew/black/homosexual/immigrant and since 9/11 now also anti-Muslim.

I don't for one second believe that if secularism or Draw Muhammed day weren't happening in America that this nutcase wouldn't have gone out to hurt people.

Penn

I do feel guilty. I once made fun of America. The killing happened in America. Therefore, I'm partially responsible.

Do I hand myself in to the local authorities or do I have to go to America? I hate it in America, loads of people are fat.

OH NO, I DID IT AGAIN! NOW SOMEONE IN AMERICA IS GOING TO KILL FAT PEOPLE! WHAT HAVE I DONE?!

Dave!

Christian white supremacists were hating non-whites for a long time before Draw Muhammed Day. If you want to make a point about that protest leading to deaths, then use the violent protests and riots in Arab countries as the example, because we know that many Muslims in these countries were motivated by this to cause carnage and murder. Suggesting that this guy was involved with Draw Muhammed Day, or that he read Sam Harris or Chris Hitchens, is pure speculation.

pH

Brown Bomber wrote: »

In light of the hate crime committed against the Sikhs in the US I wanted to ask of the secularists on boards if they regret their "draw a Muhammed day campaigns"?

Artists/People in the secular west draw things - cartoons even. If Muslims feel their religion forbids them from drawing Mohammed then that's absolutely fair enough - but they've no more right to tell me what I can and cannot draw than say a Jewish person has to tell me what foods I can and cannot eat.

No one is forcing a Muslim to draw anything (and rightly so) - no one is forcing a Jewish or Muslim person to eat pork (and rightly so) - what this is about is the unthinking assumption many religious people have that their religious rules should apply to other people. We see a similar thing about gay rights at the moment - if you believe your religion proscribes homosexuality and you find yourself both gay and an adherent of that religion - then by all means live a celibate unhappy life to please the god you believe in; that's your right to practice your religion. However your religious rules do not and should not apply to other people - the very idea they do is ludicrously self centered.

Are you confusing Neo-Nazism with Christian Identity? There is no compulsion to be any specific religion to be a Neo-Nazi. Individual groups would have their individual membership requirements but I would expect their religious affiliations to be varied. Timothy McVeigh was agnostic for example.

Most of that is quite funny - although I agree with you on one thing - bloody murdering terrorist agnostics! I'm sick to death of all the evil atheist memes "Hitler .... Pol Pot ... Stalin ... Bundy" we certainly need to compile a list of sick and crazy agnostics - their hate filled agenda has been allowed fly under the radar far too long - well spotted BB!

Dades

As someone who sees "Draw Mohammed Day" as a net loss, in terms of what it *achieves*, I don't even think there's merit in your contention, BB.

I do believe the drawings bring out the stereotypes people have, but this is far cry from having any effect on an already extremist individual. A guy like this isn't going to be set off by drawings poking fun, he's going to be set off by reading hate forums or white propaganda, getting dumped or maybe losing his job to a non-"white".

What you're effectively suggesting is that people shouldn't be openly critical of Islam in case it pushes a switch in some nutbag on the other side of the world. Its a hell of an odd situation that you shouldn't criticise something for fear of the reaction from both those who disagree with you, and those that do.

Penn

In all seriousness, Brown Bomber, correlation does not imply causation. And in this case, there isn't even any tangible correlation.

People draw prophet Muslims worship as expression of freedom of speech and freedom from religion.

White supremacist kills Sikhs.


Now, maybe he thought they were Muslim. Okay. We don't know that, but let's accept the premise for now anyway. There is still no tangible correlation with Draw Muhammad Day, regardless of whether or not you agree with DMD.

Seriously, you're completely grasping at straws here.

Brown Bomber

pH wrote: »

Artists/People in the secular west draw things - cartoons even. If Muslims feel their religion forbids them from drawing Mohammed then that's absolutely fair enough - but they've no more right to tell me what I can and cannot draw than say a Jewish person has to tell me what foods I can and cannot eat.

No one is forcing a Muslim to draw anything (and rightly so) - no one is forcing a Jewish or Muslim person to eat pork (and rightly so) - what this is about is the unthinking assumption many religious people have that their religious rules should apply to other people. We see a similar thing about gay rights at the moment - if you believe your religion proscribes homosexuality and you find yourself both gay and an adherent of that religion - then by all means live a celibate unhappy life to please the god you believe in; that's your right to practice your religion. However your religious rules do not and should not apply to other people - the very idea they do is ludicrously self centered.

I agree with you. However, I think you missed the point. The issue in this case is not merely drawing Muhammed it is drawing Muhammed, for example with a bomb in his turban. This expands on the stereotype of Terrorism = Muhammed = Islam = Muslims in general.

Muslims are being the victims of hate crimes in Western societies because of this stereotype.

The cartoons are just a component of this. They fan the flames of anti-Muslim hatred, intentionally or not - and some is undoubtedly intentional. And for what benefit? Freedom of speech? Freedom of speech can exist regardless if people draw Muhammed or not.

Brown Bomber

Penn wrote: »

In all seriousness, Brown Bomber, correlation does not imply causation. And in this case, there isn't even any tangible correlation.

People draw prophet Muslims worship as expression of freedom of speech and freedom from religion.

White supremacist kills Sikhs.


Now, maybe he thought they were Muslim. Okay. We don't know that, but let's accept the premise for now anyway. There is still no tangible correlation with Draw Muhammad Day, regardless of whether or not you agree with DMD.

Seriously, you're completely grasping at straws here.

Did the white supremacists at Stormfront who are pushing this draw Muhammed "as expression of freedom of speech and freedom from religion."

robindch

Brown Bomber wrote: »

[...] surely it's time to think twice if you become idelogical bedfellows with extremists?

Are you drunk?

Sonics2k

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I agree with you. However, I think you missed the point. The issue in this case is not merely drawing Muhammed it is drawing Muhammed, for example with a bomb in his turban. This expands on the stereotype of Terrorism = Muhammed = Islam = Muslims in general.

Absolutely no more than Terrorism = IRA = Catholic = Irish in general.
I agree the bigotry exists, but don't try blaming the DMD for it. It's just down to simple ignorance and pointless hate. It happens in Islam too.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Muslims are being the victims of hate crimes in Western societies because of this stereotype.

From a minority of people, yes.
There are still people in Britain who associate all the Irish with terrorism.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The cartoons are just a component of this. They fan the fan flames of anti-Muslim hatred. And for what benefit? Freedom of speech? Freedom of speech can exist regardless if people draw Muhammed or not.

Your Religion states you cannot draw Muhammed. We are not Muslim. Therefore we don't need to follow your rules while we don't live in a Muslim society.

People started to do the DMD because of psychopathic, bigoted, hate filled, extremists who threatened innocent lives for simply being different and not following their rules.

If you want to try and make a connection that DMD and Secularists are responsible for the actions of a racist Christian Neo-Nazi, then I'm just going to go ahead and blame you for 9/11. You are Muslim after all.

Brown Bomber

Dades wrote: »

As someone who sees "Draw Mohammed Day" as a net loss, in terms of what it *achieves*, I don't even think there's merit in your contention, BB.

I do believe the drawings bring out the stereotypes people have, but this is far cry from having any effect on an already extremist individual. A guy like this isn't going to be set off by drawings poking fun, he's going to be set off by reading hate forums or white propaganda, getting dumped or maybe losing his job to a non-"white".

What you're effectively suggesting is that people shouldn't be openly critical of Islam in case it pushes a switch in some nutbag on the other side of the world. Its a hell of an odd situation that you shouldn't criticise something for fear of the reaction from both those who disagree with you, and those that do.

I'm not suggesting that the cartoons are a direct cause but that they a component of something larger that does cause hatred against Muslims which leads to hate crimes and therefore their merits are questionable.

dlofnep

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Freedom of speech can exist regardless if people draw Muhammed or not.

No, it cannot.

King Mob

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Did the white supremacists at Stormfront who are pushing this draw Muhammed "as expression of freedom of speech and freedom from religion."

Brown Bomber wrote: »

... though surely it's time to think twice if you become idelogical bedfellows with extremists?

Lol, again made hilarious given your theories on who controls the media...

Penn

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Did the white supremacists at Stormfront who are pushing this draw Muhammed "as expression of freedom of speech and freedom from religion."

Did they draw Muhammad?
Only thing I could find about Draw Muhammad Day on their website

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that the cartoons are a direct cause but that they a component of something larger that does cause hatred against Muslims which leads to hate crimes and therefore their merits are questionable.

The koran is a compononent of Jihadi ideology. Lets ban the Koran.

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

The koran is a compononent of Jihadi ideology. Lets ban the Koran.

Iron is used in guns. Let's ban it too, lest we be seen as "idelogical (sic) bedfellows" with the turrists.

Penn

Corkfeen

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that the cartoons are a direct cause but that they a component of something larger that does cause hatred against Muslims which leads to hate crimes and therefore their merits are questionable.

If we're really going to start blaming the cartoons which I don't think are responsible, i'd have assumed that it was the extremists of the religion who threaten people that draw Mohammed are the real issue. There'd be no big deal about it if the event wasn't surrounded by so much controversy as a result of death threats. I do not hate muslims however no religion will impeach upon my rights because of threats against the lives of people who draw him. I didn't actually draw him but i'm fascinated by blaming the event for a psychopath.

We are not guilty by association, it's like people who play Grand Theft Auto are responsible for actual car robberies. Or Catcher in The Rye being responsible for assassinations, nobody should read it!

Penn

Corkfeen wrote: »

If we're really going to start blaming the cartoons which I don't think are responsible, i'd have assumed that it was the extremists of the religion who threaten people that draw Mohammed are the real issue. There'd be no big deal about it if the event wasn't surrounded by so much controversy as a result of death threats. I do not hate muslims however no religion will impeach upon my rights because of threats against the lives of people who draw him. I didn't actually draw him but i'm fascinated by blaming the event for a psychopath.

We are not guilty by association, it's like people who play Grand Theft Auto are responsible for actual car robberies. Or Catcher in The Rye being responsible for assassinations, nobody should read it!

Or The Matrix, where someone watched it, thought he was being kept in the Matrix by his parents and killed them.

Again, BAN ALL THE THINGS!

robindch

Penn wrote: »

Again, BAN ALL THE THINGS!

It gets worse!! Since the turrists ban things and since we don't want to be seen as "idelogical (sic) bedfellows", should we... ban bans too?

Answers on a postcard please.

Galvasean

I can think of something that could be banned to help keep the peace...

:pac:

robindch

Coffee and elevators?

Galvasean

robindch wrote: »

Coffee and elevators?

That's two things! :mad:

fitz0

They're ok seperately but together?

BAN THEM!!11!

Ellis Dee

Cartoons and the satire that they often involve are part and parcel of the, mainly Western, cultures in which they are published. It can almost be guaranteed that they will offend someone, in addition to amusing and entertaining others.:rolleyes:

However, when people get worked up and threaten or commit violence because something or other in a legally published work offends them, they are the problem, not those who exercise a constitutionally guaranteed fundamental right, freedom of expression.:cool:

The kind of fanatics who burn and pillage and kill because someone makes fun of a 7th-century figure, religious leader and warlord, will find some other excuse even if no one ever published a cartoon or critical article.

Thus it is utterly silly to say that people who exercise the freedom that their society guarantees are helping incite criminals.

As for that shooter in Milwaukee, it is quite possible that he never even heard about the Danish cartoons or the furore that followed them. The fact that he doesn't know the difference between Islam and Sikhism demonstrates that his general education has at least one major gap in it.*

Not, of course, that attacking a mosque and killing people there would have been any more justifiable than making a gurdwara his target.

*For one thing, Sikhs won't attack Boards.ie for publishing a "graven image" of their prophet:

Zombrex

Brown Bomber wrote: »

And for what benefit? Freedom of speech? Freedom of speech can exist regardless if people draw Muhammed or not.

It cannot exist if people are so scared of violence against them that they do not exercise it.

I agree that the stereotyping of Muslims as violent is anti-Muslim and contributes to hatred against Muslims. But then the people who try and execute those who draw Mohammad are not all that concerned with looking violent.

Freedom of speech is non-negotiable. You do not support freedom of speech only for speech you agree with.

The purpose of the draw Mohammad day was to make this point. You have the right to be offended but that is where your rights end. You do not have the right to be violent, you do not have the right to have speech suppressed. People will not be scared into being silent.

SeanW

Hey Brown Bomber, the Koran calls for the execution of homosexuals right? AFAIK it also calls for punishment of some sort for leaving the Islamic faith.

So next time a Muslim kills a homosexual or harms an apostate, you can surely agree that we can all blame the Koran, and by extension you for believing/promoting it? Right? (Just using your logic here).

I'm agnostic btw but don't worry, you can make fun of my religious position all you like, pretty sure noone's going to try to kill you for it!

SeanW

Oh and that the nutcase in Wisconsin believed that the Sikhs were Muslims is wild speculation.

This evil SOB may have been bat**** crazy, but he probably wasn't THAT stupid.

He murdered those people because he's a racist. Beginning, Middle, End of story.

Bloodwing

BB, surely the main reason that people draw the link between muhammad and terrorism is the fact that most if not all of these terrorists sit down in front of cameras before carrying out their attack and declare that it is part of a holy war and in the name of muhammed. The fact that that I might decide to draw a pic of a bloke with a bomb and a funny hat kinda pales into insignificance?

Brown Bomber

Sonics2k wrote: »

Absolutely no more than Terrorism = IRA = Catholic = Irish in general.
I agree the bigotry exists, but don't try blaming the DMD for it. It's just down to simple ignorance and pointless hate. It happens in Islam too.

You agree that bigotry exists. Good. How could you not? "Pointless hate" is obviosly not organic. So what feeds it? How does person A possess "pointless hate" and then burn a Mosque to the ground?

Sonics2k wrote: »

From a minority of people, yes.
There are still people in Britain who associate all the Irish with terrorism.

So if a minority of people are victims of hate crimes that is okay for you?

Sonics2k wrote: »

Your Religion states you cannot draw Muhammed. We are not Muslim. Therefore we don't need to follow your rules while we don't live in a Muslim society.

Sonics2k wrote: »

People started to do the DMD because of psychopathic, bigoted, hate filled, extremists who threatened innocent lives for simply being different and not following their rules.

Nope.

She went on to "apologize to people of Muslim faith and ask that this 'day' be called off" and she thanked "those who are turning this crazy thing into an opportunity for dialogue".


Norris told Comic Riffs: "My cartoon was the beginning and end of expressing my personal views about Comedy Central's South Park censorship. If I had wanted my one-off cartoon to be the basis for a worldwide movement to draw Mohammed, then at this moment I should be thrilled."


"But instead I am horrified!...The results have shown to be vitriolic and worse, offensive to Muslims who had nothing to do with the censorship issue I was inspired to draw about in the first place."


Her initiative had turned into an online movement within days, as dozens of Facebook users started their own pages. The original group attracted tens of thousands of fans, according to a report by the US newspaper Seattle Times.

Sonics2k wrote: »

If you want to try and make a connection that DMD and Secularists are responsible for the actions of a racist Christian Neo-Nazi, then I'm just going to go ahead and blame you for 9/11. You are Muslim after all.

:pac: News to me...

What your false assumption based on who knows what does do is highlight your prejudices however. Something that is probably clouding your senses to see the visual rhetoric for what it is.