Citizenship

retroactive

How would I go about finding out if a person is a citizen of a particular country?

For example, if I wanted to know if a person was an Irish Citizen or held duel citizenship.

(It's a service outside the jursdiction question rather than a racist one)

johnnyskeleton

You could ask them or someone who knows them or request a copy of the electoral register

McCrack

I dont think a defendants citizenship is relevant to issuing & serving proceedings, residence is important and depending on the nature of the proceedings where the tort/contract happened/executed.

ResearchWill

McCrack wrote: »

I dont think a defendants citizenship is relevant to issuing & serving proceedings, residence is important and depending on the nature of the proceedings where the tort/contract happened/executed.

In the back of my head I think if a person is a citizen of Ireland resident abroad then a copy of the summons is served under which ever rule, if person is a non citizen then only a notice of the summons is served.

Ya Order 11 rule 8


8. Where the defendant is not, or is not known or believed to be, a citizen of Ireland, notice of the summons, and not the summons itself, shall be served upon him.


May be different In orders 11a to e

retroactive

I need to determine whether the Hague Convention, Brussels Convention or 11a -e are appropriate. So is there anyway to determine the nationality of someone? be it Irish, English or American?

Indricotherium

retroactive wrote: »

I need to determine whether the Hague Convention, Brussels Convention or 11a -e are appropriate. So is there anyway to determine the nationality of someone? be it Irish, English or American?

Ask the person.

ResearchWill

retroactive wrote: »

I need to determine whether the Hague Convention, Brussels Convention or 11a -e are appropriate. So is there anyway to determine the nationality of someone? be it Irish, English or American?

Order 11 rule 8 says if in doubt treat the person as non Irish. It's just a matter of reading the other rules to see which applies in your case.

retroactive

I'd like to be sure though and it would mean circumventing the need for obtaining leave from the court.


Electorial register is a good idea.

ResearchWill

retroactive wrote: »

I'd like to be sure though and it would mean circumventing the need for obtaining leave from the court.


Electorial register is a good idea.

But the situation is either order 11 or one of the others, maybe I'm wrong but citizenship does not effect which rule you use, the case either falls under one or the other, once you know then the issue is the person a citizen or not and the rules say if in doubt serve notice. I can not really see how citizenship changes which rule but I may be wrong.

retroactive

ResearchWill wrote: »

But the situation is either order 11 or one of the others, maybe I'm wrong but citizenship does not effect which rule you use, the case either falls under one or the other, once you know then the issue is the person a citizen or not and the rules say if in doubt serve notice. I can not really see how citizenship changes which rule but I may be wrong.

"The courts of Ireland cannot summon a person resident outside the jurisdiction who is not an Irish citizen. This is because the State may exercise its sovereign power only within its own borders or in respect to its own citizens, wherever they may be. Accordingly, if the defendant is not an Irish citizen, the court will grant leave to serve (i) notice (i) of the summons on that person, rather than the summons itself. Such a notice is in identical terms to the summons, but is headed ‘Notice of a Plenary Summons’"



"Order 11A applies only where the following conditions are met

(1) The claim is one which Irish courts have the power to hear and determine by virtue of Rehgulation 44/2001
(2) No proceedings between the parties concerning the same cause of action are ppending between the parties in another Member State of the European Union.
(3) Either –
(i) the Defendant is domiciled in a contracting state
(ii) the proceedings are proceedings in respect of which the Irish Courts have exclusive jurisdiction under regulation or convention or
(iii) the Defendant is a party to an agreement conferring jurisdiction on the Irish Courts, to which effect is given by the terms of the regulation or convention.

Proceedings which meet the criteria listed above may be served on the Defendant without the leave of Court. The summons should contain an endorsement at the end of the indorsement of claim in relation to EC regulation 44/2001.

As with proceedings under Order 11, if the defendant is not an Irish Citizen, Notice of the summons only may be served on him. "



"Order 11E applies to the service of documents under the Hague convention on the service abroad of judicial and extra judicial documents in civil and commercial matters, 1965. (http://riga.usembassy.gov/hague_list.html) It applies to countries outside of the European Union, including the United States."



So i'm trying to decide which order and which convention to serve under. I would rather not serve 'notice' (Mainly because i'm not sure of the differences in notice of a summons and an actual summons)

The above represents a quick copy and paste from my notes on the matter and may not be entirely accurate or the best for illustrating my point

ResearchWill

retroactive wrote: »

"The courts of Ireland cannot summon a person resident outside the jurisdiction who is not an Irish citizen. This is because the State may exercise its sovereign power only within its own borders or in respect to its own citizens, wherever they may be. Accordingly, if the defendant is not an Irish citizen, the court will grant leave to serve (i) notice (i) of the summons on that person, rather than the summons itself. Such a notice is in identical terms to the summons, but is headed ‘Notice of a Plenary Summons’"



"Order 11A applies only where the following conditions are met

(1) The claim is one which Irish courts have the power to hear and determine by virtue of Rehgulation 44/2001
(2) No proceedings between the parties concerning the same cause of action are ppending between the parties in another Member State of the European Union.
(3) Either –
(i) the Defendant is domiciled in a contracting state
(ii) the proceedings are proceedings in respect of which the Irish Courts have exclusive jurisdiction under regulation or convention or
(iii) the Defendant is a party to an agreement conferring jurisdiction on the Irish Courts, to which effect is given by the terms of the regulation or convention.

Proceedings which meet the criteria listed above may be served on the Defendant without the leave of Court. The summons should contain an endorsement at the end of the indorsement of claim in relation to EC regulation 44/2001.

As with proceedings under Order 11, if the defendant is not an Irish Citizen, Notice of the summons only may be served on him. "



"Order 11E applies to the service of documents under the Hague convention on the service abroad of judicial and extra judicial documents in civil and commercial matters, 1965. (http://riga.usembassy.gov/hague_list.html) It applies to countries outside of the European Union, including the United States."



So i'm trying to decide which order and which convention to serve under. I would rather not serve 'notice' (Mainly because i'm not sure of the differences in notice of a summons and an actual summons)

The above represents a quick copy and paste from my notes on the matter and may not be entirely accurate or the best for illustrating my point

You are correct our court can not summon a non citizen, that is why each of the rules have the rule relating to the notice. Notice of a summons is exactly that just informing a person that a summons exists.

If say you are covered under 11A then Order 11A rule 6 kicks in

6. Where the defendant is not, or is not known or believed to be, a citizen of Ireland, notice of summons and not the summons itself shall be served upon him.

In my reading citizenship only becomes an issue once you know are you serving under Order 11 or one of the others.

retroactive

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202012/May2012.pdf

...Page 5

ResearchWill

retroactive wrote: »

http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202012/May2012.pdf

...Page 5

The face book service, while that is very interesting, of I remember there was already a thread on that. But it's not your situation, alternative means of service are constantly used.

retroactive

After a quick bit of research, I found the UK and the Australian decisions that the ruling stemmed from are almost analogues to the situation i'm toying with.

So substituted service via facebook pursuant to Order 11A of RSC? Seriously, someone tell me i'm right so I can finally click send and go to bed. I cant read Reg 44/2001 again and no one can make me.

ResearchWill

retroactive wrote: »

After a quick bit of research, I found the UK and the Australian decisions that the ruling stemmed from are almost analogues to the situation i'm toying with.

So substituted service via facebook pursuant to Order 11A of RSC? Seriously, someone tell me i'm right so I can finally click send and go to bed. I cant read Reg 44/2001 again and no one can make me.

Substituted service is under Order 10 and you have to show you cannot personally serve for what ever reason. You said in your OP that you just don't know the persons nationality, and the live abroad. If you don't know where the person is and you have made efforts to find out, and you can show that they monitor a certain email address, Facebook or twitter account then under order 10 you can seek to serve by that method.