Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest
Will Israel Vs Iran start world war 3?
Comments
-
Eggy Baby! wrote: »And where did I say that?
The policy of Western nations regarding Iran is like attempting to pacify a dog by poking it with a stick and pushing it into a corner. The point is they are trying to make Iran do something stupid, presumably related to the straits of Hormuz, in order to justify action against that state.
Tell me with a straight face that that is morally right. Because its not. On the internet we would call that "baiting".
I understand that forbidding Iran to have nuclear weapon might sound hypocrite when other countries like Israel allegedly have it.
The thing is that all the countries which have it except North Korea are stable countries and don't wish or declare on wiping out other countries. Also, they don't support terror organizations throughout the world, unlike what Iran does.
These reasons are enough for many people around the western world to act against the possibility of Iran having nuclear weapons, even if there is a cost to it.
Pushing Iran into the corner? the western allies have been having these negotiations with Iran since it has established its first reactor in 2005, and since then nothing is stopping it. The suctions are the last resort and they aren't working.0 -
-
Considering the number of Iranians who "somebody" has bumped off over the last while, its not hard to imagine how they might take a similarily dim view.
You mean Iranian nuclear scientists in attempt to avoid the forthcoming war (in this case they aren't very different from military personal in my view) as compared to dead Israeli tourists that have been killed for achieving mm.. what?0 -
The Israeli wrote: »You mean Iranian nuclear scientists in attempt to avoid the forthcoming war (in this case they aren't very different from military personal in my view) as compared to dead Israeli tourists that have been killed for achieving mm.. what?
There nuclear scientists working on a civilian program, and as such civilians no different than Israeli tourists. There is no evidence of a active WMD program. So they most certainly are not a military target. If you choose to define them as such, your are in effect making excuses for terrorism.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »You mean Iranian nuclear scientists in attempt to avoid the forthcoming war (in this case they aren't very different from military personal in my view) ....... what?
They aren't all military personnel. At least two were University lecturers.
It's "different" when one side do it, is it? Thats good to know. They retaliated to establish whats known as a "balance of terror". In order to dissuade attack, they show the consequence in the form of reprisal. Its a rather ugly but well established pattern - I shouldn't really have to explain the logic to an Israeli.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »
Now Iran is showing the middle finger to the world.. Well, to the western world at least, and you applause.
[/I]
So, when exactly will Israel be inviting the UN/IAEA to inspect its own undeclared nuclear weapons program ?0 -
The Israeli wrote: »If it wasn't about Iran, I might have agreed with you, but because Iran sponsors Hezbollah, Hamas and is probably the one who has ordered the terror act against tourists in Burgas, Bulgaria and tried to do the same in India and says all the time the Israel is cancer which is soon will be removed and stuff, it feels pretty dangerous just to accept their nuclear policy.
Just search on youtube something like "ahmadinejad israel speech" and similar combinations to see what is the worst case scenario if Iran has atomic weapon. It's their only way to fulfill it.
That's just sidestepping the issue given that your argument is predicated on Iran having a nuclear weapons capability. We have provided evidence that Iran does not have nuclear weapons. You have yet to provide any material to prove your assertions. A war against Iran is going to be messy in many ways, it will further destabilise the ME, it will likely cause an escalation in international tensions, it will result in nuclear pollution and then there are the ethical costs, which are often abstracted or simply ignored in the build up to war, the human suffering and loss of lives in the immediate present and future from the strikes and the resultant fallout. An internal destabilisation of the regime is cleaner and would achieve the same end.0 -
America's time as the world power is quickly coming to an end. Israel knows that. Their window of opportunity is quickly closing.0
-
They aren't all military personnel. At least two were University lecturers.
It's "different" when one side do it, is it? Thats good to know. They retaliated to establish whats known as a "balance of terror". In order to dissuade attack, they show the consequence in the form of reprisal. Its a rather ugly but well established pattern - I shouldn't really have to explain the logic to an Israeli.
When there is a nuclear threat and lives of a few citizens there is no balance of terror.
They were working on a project that will be likely used for military purposes. They knew what they were dealing with. Anyway, I explained in the previous message that the purpose (even if the way is disgusting) was to prevent a war.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
The Israeli wrote: »And Israel is threatening on the existence of what countries and supply what terror organizations?
Your country is threantening the Palestinian occupied territories, wiping it out day by day with settlements. I won't even bother with a link, as the existence of settlement expansion is well established.
Your country support settlers, who even the US state dept are now calling terrorists:
Jewish settler attacks on Palestinians listed as 'terrorist incidents' by US
The settlers are protected by the Israeli government are provided with services etc from the government.0 -
nyarlothothep wrote: »That's just sidestepping the issue given that your argument is predicated on Iran having a nuclear weapons capability. We have provided evidence that Iran does not have nuclear weapons. You have yet to provide any material to prove your assertions. A war against Iran is going to be messy in many ways, it will further destabilise the ME, it will likely cause an escalation in international tensions, it will result in nuclear pollution and then there are the ethical costs, which are often abstracted or simply ignored in the build up to war, the human suffering and loss of lives in the immediate present and future from the strikes and the resultant fallout. An internal destabilisation of the regime is cleaner and would achieve the same end.
Well, if there were evidences it would have been much easier, right..
The strongest clue that the world has is this:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9130082/Iran-trying-to-remove-evidence-that-it-tested-detonators-for-nuclear-weapons.html
It's not a proof, I know, but let's not forget that Iran is keeping many secrets. When and if there will be evidences it will be too late.
Iran is acting to move its nuclear production in deep underground protected bunkers. After that, an air assault wouldn't be effective.
As I wrote a few pages back it's more then enough to be assertive with Iran:
1) Iran isn't letting other nations to enrich Uranium for itself.
2) Iran is willing to destroy its economy and let their people suffer for it.
3) Iran is threatening unstoppably on Israel and supports terror.
4) Iran is increasing the enriching speed despite of having enough material for nuclear power stations and research.
Too many red lights. Luckily, just enough people see them.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »When there is a nuclear threat and lives of a few citizens there is no balance of terror.
So terrroism is ok, when you guy do it. Typical hypocrisy.The Israeli wrote: »They were working on a project that will be likely used for military purposes.
No they didn't. The Iranian leadership put a Fatwa against Nuclear Wepaons, which would lead anyone working on it to think otherwise.
Then there is the simple fact that no one has proof of a active WMD program.The Israeli wrote: »They knew what they were dealing with. Anyway, I explained in the previous message that the purpose (even if the way is disgusting) was to prevent a war.
Attacking civilians in foreign countries tend to cause wars..... Your logic is utterly twisted, and the same old apologetics for your countries terror.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »Well, if there were evidences it would have been much easier, right..
The strongest clue that the world has is this:
Parchin is a military site, the IAEA under the NPT do not have a right to access it. It being a miltary base, there could be any number of reason for what they were doing. For instance, senstive military secrets, that may be used by the US or Israel, who both seem to want to attack. That is a perfectly plausable reason.
Also, the IAEA were allowed to inspect that site before, and didn't find any evidence then. So the claims imho are farcical, and shows that the IAEA are either incompetent or liars.
If Iran was hiding something, then they could tell the IAEA to take a hike, as they don't have to let them on military site as per the NPT. The fact that they are allowing foreigners access to a military site at all, is an indication that they aren't up to no good imho. I doubt the US would allow the IAEA to inspect there military bases, nor would Israel.
Also, the accusations date back from 2003.... which is hardly evidence of an active WMD program if true.
Again, same old hyped up propoganda imho.The Israeli wrote: »1) Iran isn't letting other nations to enrich Uranium for itself.
They have a right to enrich under the NPT, and they were willing to do this under a deal with Brazil and Turkey, that the West messed up.The Israeli wrote: »2) Iran is willing to destroy its economy and let their people suffer for it.
Its the countries putting sanctions on Iran that are the cause of that. The Iranian government would see themselves as standing up to bullies. BTW, they have offered to compromise, most notable the Brazil and Turkey deal scuppered by the West. So they aren't quite as unreasonable as some make them out to be.The Israeli wrote: »3) Iran is threatening unstoppably on Israel and supports terror.
Iran is not threatening Israel "unstoppable", and you have been asked multiple times for proof of this, and only mentioned one instance, which was mis-translated. You are being untruthful, but repeating this lie over and over again.
As for Iran sponsoring terrorism. You will find that India, Pakstian, the US and Israel are all guilty of that as well. This is not to excuse Iran, but it can hardly be seen to disqualify them from nuclear energy, when other countries with actual weapons have sponsored terrorism as well.The Israeli wrote: »4) Iran is increasing the enriching speed despite of having enough material for nuclear power stations and research.
There still no where near enriching to levels needed for nuclear weapons.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »And Israel is threatening on the existence of what countries and supply what terror organizations?
Occassionally Lebanon. The creation of a Palestinian state.
The "south lebanese army" and the Christian falangists, when it suits.0 -
-
The Israeli wrote: »You mean the south Lebanese army that had kept southern Lebanon Christian and not under Hezbollah control?
No, this bunch. Big on terrorising civillians and shooting peacekeepers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lebanon_Army
But I suppose they're "different" again.0 -
And Israel is threatening on the existence of what countries and supply what terror organizations?
Israel doesn't need to fund foreign terrorist organisations. MOSSAD is a terror organisation in itself.
(Blowing up Iranian scientists in their cars in the middle of crowded streets and then releasing statements going "Oh well, we shan't say he didn't deserve it..." lol)0 -
Eggy Baby! wrote: »Israel doesn't need to fund foreign terrorist organisations. MOSSAD is a terror organisation in itself.
(Blowing up Iranian scientists in their cars in the middle of crowded streets and then releasing statements going "Oh well, we shan't say he didn't deserve it..." lol)
Yes, there is a genuine debate as to where the parameters should lie regarding activities of an intelligence service. However, they're in a state of war with Iran and a selection of other powerful proxy allies, so it wouldn't be surprising what they do. I remember the outrage when all clues pointed to a Mossad killing of a Hamas operative in Dubai. "False passports!". "Murderers!" etc etc. The 'victim', if he can be called that, was a multiple murderer himself who amongst other incidents mowed down passengers waiting at a bus stop, was himself travelling on false passports and a member of a fanatical unyielding anti-democratic terrorist organisation and sworn enemy of not only Israel but of Jews. Iran's Pasdaran run similar operations. As for the apparent scientists, was it not even suspicious that two of them were part of the opposition wave that was crushed and purged by Ahmadinijad's regime following the excuse for an election Iran had in 2009 (or 2010 - cant remember)?
I think the Iranian regime won't be provoked as Ahmadinijad is already on the way out. There will be a lot of poking and prodding by both anti and pro Iranian government proxy allies such as the US and Russia with China. When you have a threat nearby you don't sit and wait for it to become a bigger threat. There won't be a war. Neither govt has unification behind it to progress. The to-ing and fro-ing will remain and the press will eventually drop it as the readers and viewers get bored with the same old same old.
Conveniently selective paraphrasing by you, by the way.0 -
Advertisement
-
No, this bunch. Big on terrorising civillians and shooting peacekeepers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Lebanon_Army
But I suppose they're "different" again.
Better at least than your "beloved" Hezbollah, and at the time Israel and them had a mutual benefit of keeping radical Islamic fighters out of the southern Lebanese border. It's not a perfect world.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »Better at least than your "beloved" Hezbollah, and at the time Israel and them had a mutual benefit of keeping radical Islamic fighters out of the southern Lebanese border. It's not a perfect world.
Your country also supported (actually aided and abetted, considering the IDF prevented people from escaping and help light things up at night) the group responsible for the Sabra and Shatilla masscres.
So, trying to make out your allies to be better than Hezbollah is rather funny. At least Hezbollah didn't go on a genocidal rampage. Your excuse for your countries support of terror is really nothing short of desperate. One rule for your country and a different one for the other guy.0 -
Conveniently selective paraphrasing by you, by the way.
Well, they said something to that effect.
Also, I wasn't referring to the extrajudicial killing of the terrorist abroad, but rather, suspicious explosions in Iranian power plants (including one which I believe killed several workers) and assassinations. The intention of these bombings and killings is both-
-To overtly disrupt the Iranian nuclear program
-to disrupt any further progress in the program through terror (i.e if you are a scientist, you could die. If the Iranian government keeps building plants of this sort then we will hit them etc.)
Therefore, state sponsored terrorism.
And I'm not saying that Iran is innocent of state terrorism. Its pretty evident that they have been waging a war by proxy against Israel for ages.
But nuclear reactors + explosions do not mix.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »Better at least than your "beloved" Hezbollah, and at the time Israel and them had a mutual benefit of keeping radical Islamic fighters out of the southern Lebanese border. It's not a perfect world.
Not sure why you have "beloved" their in quotes as if its something I've said....
So they are a bunch of terrorists, but thats ok because they're your bunch of terrorists. Lovely.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »You are slightly underestimating the IAF.. All these missiles have to be dragged out of their bunkers. Some of them would have to be fueled. This makes them vulnerable + an accurate and massive attack done by the IAF can eliminate most of the threats. You are also forgetting that Israel has submarines, missiles and air force that can cause a grave damage to Iranian main cities, which is something they are taking into account too.
Many people have under estimated the Israeli capabilities starting from 1948, so you are not the first one.
I have read and heard about possible military developments if Israel attacks. All I can say that you shouldn't take your predictions too seriously.
There aren't other options but those 2:
Nuclear Iran or not nuclear Iran. There is no shame for you to say out loud that you prefer a nuclear Iran.
Iran arms Hezbollah and Hamas even today. People with logic wouldn't like to let people who speak all the time about the extinction of Israel the choice to decide what to do with nuclear bombs or dirty weapons.
Assad is far from a good partner but his rhetoric is pretty different than of Iran. At least because he fears of Israel. Something the Iranians are less concerned about.
I really dont want Iran to get a nuclear weapon thats if they want one - I dont think anyone should have them - assuming I do because I disagree with you or have a different opinion to yours is silly.
Of Israeli capabilities in the public domain I would know about most of them and I understand what your military can do from what I know of it. You have no strategic bombers, no stealth planes and not enough aircraft to confidently predict a successful outcome to the lunatic flight of fancy that is blowing up nuclear power plants and causing disaster of a magnitude that is frightening. And you have no fcking right to do such a thing.
You talk of submarines ( cruise missiles unless you gona launch nuclear tipped Jerichos) and land based missiles and thats all well and good. The first sign of any of that stuff and the Iranians will fire 11000 missiles at Tel Aviv. You still lose. They lose. We all lose.
Have often wondered about the Israeli mentality and some of you I dont know how many, not all as plenty of Israelis like everyone else dont agree with lunacy, though some of you strike me as one of three things - extremely brainwashed , extremely arrogant or extremely stupid. You live in the past fear the future and forget about the here and now, what a horrible way to live and it doesnt have to be that way.
Excuse me if I take offence to you using the word "logic" in your post in any way shape or form as clearly the meaning of the word alludes you and anyone who shares your point of view. From the Israeli top-rankins we here this and that about strategy, survival , action, constant chest beating and threats - mad dog bibi raves and rants, taunts and threatens and the indoctrinated lap it up. When did people stop thinking of the human cost on all sides of conflict and war? when did that happen? What about that?..
There was a paper commissioned by the Center for International & Strategic Studies called "Study on a possible Israeli Strike on Irans Nuclear Development" this small paragraph can be found between the pages 90 & 91..
“any strike on the Bushehr nuclear reactor will cause the immediate death of thousands of people living in or adjacent to the site, and thousands of subsequent cancer deaths or even up to hundreds of thousands depending on the population density along the contamination plume,” “Bahrain, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates will be heavily affected by the radionuclides. ”
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/090316_israelistrikeiran.pdf
Have we heard anything about this in the media? where is the reality of such action being reported? are people so desensitised to the realities of war that the human cost doesnt figure any more?..
Is your brain able to process what youve just read? you talk of "logic" do you understand what the above means? Do you understand this isnt just about Israel? Do you understand this , if it happens, affects all of us? Who gives Israel the right to take such incredible stupid action. My mind boggles as to anyone who even entertains the notion of doing this let alone following through. If your country does this you are finished as a nation. Regardless of the military response by Iran and war that follows, the sheer backlash and outright hatred of what you have done will be something you can never recover from. I just hope there are influential people within your country who are not as crazy as your leaders nor the people who support them. For all our sakes.0 -
If your country does this you are finished as a nation.
Incredibly sobering comment. As is the paragraph about the effects of Bushehr being hit.You are slightly underestimating the IAF.. All these missiles have to be dragged out of their bunkers. Some of them would have to be fueled. This makes them vulnerable + an accurate and massive attack done by the IAF can eliminate most of the threats. You are also forgetting that Israel has submarines, missiles and air force that can cause a grave damage to Iranian main cities, which is something they are taking into account too.
Do you honestly think the Iranian air forces will sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for the Israelis to blow up their missiles? Or do you think that their advanced AA systems would just..sit around? This isn't Top Gun, with jets flying around willy nilly destroying Migs without a care in the world, despite what you think...
There wouldn't be much of a conventional war, if I'm honest, taking into account the potential nuclear arsenals of both countries.0 -
Advertisement
-
I really dont want Iran to get a nuclear weapon thats if they want one - I dont think anyone should have them - assuming I do because I disagree with you or have a different opinion to yours is silly.
Of Israeli capabilities in the public domain I would know about most of them and I understand what your military can do from what I know of it. You have no strategic bombers, no stealth planes and not enough aircraft to confidently predict a successful outcome to the lunatic flight of fancy that is blowing up nuclear power plants and causing disaster of a magnitude that is frightening. And you have no fcking right to do such a thing.
You talk of submarines ( cruise missiles unless you gona launch nuclear tipped Jerichos) and land based missiles and thats all well and good. The first sign of any of that stuff and the Iranians will fire 11000 missiles at Tel Aviv. You still lose. They lose. We all lose.
Have often wondered about the Israeli mentality and some of you I dont know how many, not all as plenty of Israelis like everyone else dont agree with lunacy, though some of you strike me as one of three things - extremely brainwashed , extremely arrogant or extremely stupid. You live in the past fear the future and forget about the here and now, what a horrible way to live and it doesnt have to be that way.
Excuse me if I take offence to you using the word "logic" in your post in any way shape or form as clearly the meaning of the word alludes you and anyone who shares your point of view. From the Israeli top-rankins we here this and that about strategy, survival , action, constant chest beating and threats - mad dog bibi raves and rants, taunts and threatens and the indoctrinated lap it up. When did people stop thinking of the human cost on all sides of conflict and war? when did that happen? What about that?..
There was a paper commissioned by the Center for International & Strategic Studies called "Study on a possible Israeli Strike on Irans Nuclear Development" this small paragraph can be found between the pages 90 & 91..
“any strike on the Bushehr nuclear reactor will cause the immediate death of thousands of people living in or adjacent to the site, and thousands of subsequent cancer deaths or even up to hundreds of thousands depending on the population density along the contamination plume,” “Bahrain, Qatar and the United Arab Emirates will be heavily affected by the radionuclides. ”
http://csis.org/files/media/csis/pubs/090316_israelistrikeiran.pdf
Have we heard anything about this in the media? where is the reality of such action being reported? are people so desensitised to the realities of war that the human cost doesnt figure any more?..
Is your brain able to process what youve just read? you talk of "logic" do you understand what the above means? Do you understand this isnt just about Israel? Do you understand this , if it happens, affects all of us? Who gives Israel the right to take such incredible stupid action. My mind boggles as to anyone who even entertains the notion of doing this let alone following through. If your country does this you are finished as a nation. Regardless of the military response by Iran and war that follows, the sheer backlash and outright hatred of what you have done will be something you can never recover from. I just hope there are influential people within your country who are not as crazy as your leaders nor the people who support them. For all our sakes.
We have definitely moved up on the personal level, ah?
First of all, why would you know anything or even me, a regular foot soldier in reserves about top secret Israeli attack plans on Iran?
The only thing that we can be sure of, is that Israel can't destroy the nuclear industry completely from the air, unlike USA.
Israel can refuel in the air, maybe it can use bases in foreign countries as bases for planes. There have been at least too places which have been told about in the media in the recent months, and there may be some more that are kept in secret.
The 11000 missiles can be launched at once? In five minutes? In 1 hour? In a day? In a week? No, they can't.
The estimation of the suspected missiles hits on Israel is much lower. Don't forget that many of them and their launchers would be hit on the ground, maybe even in the first possible attack waves.
There's also the cycle of fear - if you continue launching, we continue launching. Don't forget that Hezbollah has had much more missiles in 2006 than it has fired, and even much more now, but yet, since 2006 it's pretty "quiet at the western front".
Mad dog Bibi- I'm not a great fan of the man, but here is a lesson in psychology -
The more he acts like "restrain me, or I'm going mad" the more diplomatically welcomed will be a diplomatic solution from Iran.
Common.. think a little - it's all strategies, though I think that Israel will act if things come to that.
About the research - yes, I seems pretty gloomy.
Actually, I talk to Iranians from time to time on the internet. They are so unprepared for any attack.
Hope they will be more prepared and move as further as possible from these areas. Hope that Iran will get off of its highway to the bomb, and agree to the international terms.
If the question is them or us, I choose us. I don't care if you call us paranoids. You are in Ireland. Not in our shoes.0 -
"Will US attack Iran"?
No
"Will Israel attack Iran"?
Probably.
Israel is peace loving democratic country.. I can't imagine why Iran would hate them so much.
So what if Israel are threatening Iran, that's no excuse!
Israel are clearly the victim here...there is no doubt.
I have never doubted that I live in my anus.
the last line made me laugh, well done0 -
MOD NOTE:
Just as a reminder to posters, please do not cut and paste entire articles from news sites. Not only does this raise copyright issues, but you are expected to offer your own thoughts on an issue, not just cut and paste what other people said.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »We have definitely moved up on the personal level, ah?
First of all, why would you know anything or even me, a regular foot soldier in reserves about top secret Israeli attack plans on Iran?
The only thing that we can be sure of, is that Israel can't destroy the nuclear industry completely from the air, unlike USA.
Israel can refuel in the air, maybe it can use bases in foreign countries as bases for planes. There have been at least too places which have been told about in the media in the recent months, and there may be some more that are kept in secret.
The 11000 missiles can be launched at once? In five minutes? In 1 hour? In a day? In a week? No, they can't.
The estimation of the suspected missiles hits on Israel is much lower. Don't forget that many of them and their launchers would be hit on the ground, maybe even in the first possible attack waves.
There's also the cycle of fear - if you continue launching, we continue launching. Don't forget that Hezbollah has had much more missiles in 2006 than it has fired, and even much more now, but yet, since 2006 it's pretty "quiet at the western front".
Mad dog Bibi- I'm not a great fan of the man, but here is a lesson in psychology -
The more he acts like "restrain me, or I'm going mad" the more diplomatically welcomed will be a diplomatic solution from Iran.
Common.. think a little - it's all strategies, though I think that Israel will act if things come to that.
About the research - yes, I seems pretty gloomy.
Actually, I talk to Iranians from time to time on the internet. They are so unprepared for any attack.
Hope they will be more prepared and move as further as possible from these areas. Hope that Iran will get off of its highway to the bomb, and agree to the international terms.
If the question is them or us, I choose us. I don't care if you call us paranoids. You are in Ireland. Not in our shoes.
My previous post was not a personal attack on you though it doesnt surprise me that you perceive it that way, you assumed I wanted Iran to have nuclear weapons as it suits your perceptions - persecution and everyone is against us seems to be a stable part of the Israeli psyche it doesnt surprise me that you feel under "attack". This is a general observation of mine you could call it my opinion of which Im entitled and Im stating. Your litany of responses on this thread only stands to reaffirm what Im thinking though I accept that not all Israelis are of this mindset. An Israeli person handing out a "lesson" in psychology is a bit rich dont you think I will refrain from going into detail, but please, spare me.
How you can state that this potential attack is somehow going to be secret is beyond me. The only thing secret about any attack will be the method by which its delivered and even then its hardly secret, your airforce will be involved maybe the flight paths will be a surprise but that is all. Hardly a secret.
The only thing we can be sure of is that Israel has no right to carry out such lunacy - legally or morally. The only thing we can be sure of is that blowing up nuclear plants is the actions of a crazy person. The only thing we can be sure of is thousands of people will die from war and nuclear fallout. The only thing we can be sure of is that Israeli civillians will die along with their Iranian counterparts so on so forth but its obvious all these things come a distant 15th position in your thoughts. When you talk to Iranians do you not think it would be a good idea to try avert what might happen??...instead of finding out if they prepared for the onslaught and slaughter?..Not only are you ok with a nuclear catastrophe in their country you hope they will leave their homes and move away? You have to be kidding me. Is nuclear fallout and death not enough for you - you want thousands of people to uproot and become refugees because your leaders are paranoid freaks?? unbelievable. I may well live in Ireland but this planet belongs to me too and not just Israel. You and people of your mindset would do well to remember this. Thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of people dieing a slow painful death as a result of cancer strikes you as "pretty gloomy"?? how about heartbreaking and wrong? I take it you have never seen someone close to you suffer upclose from such a thing as if you had, regardless of an attack that is unjust, you would not be so indifferent to potential suffering.
How do you know its a question of them or you??? How do you know this Im calling you on this Id like you to back that statement up and prove it please.
Lets say for the sake of argument that you are right and the Iranian military are wrong - they cant fire all them missiles in response - what do you believe the response will be? Do you think they are capable of launching a CBR ballistic missile at your city?? are you familiar with biological warfare?? have you any idea how lethal these virus have become nowadays? Do you know how easy it would be for an Iranian agent to release something into your population and you wouldnt have a clue until a few days later when people started falling. You dont need a missile for that. One agent in a cinema or shopping center somewhere populated in theory could wipe out your people. What about attacks against soft target Israelis all over the planet? have you thought about any of this?? In Israel are you questioning the consequence of doing something so crazy?? are any of you thinking??? or do you just believe you bomb them and its over?? Have you thought about the damage it will cause to our planet?? Or the likelyhood it would escalate far beyond your borders?? have you thought of anything other than yourselves?? I would like to hear your answer though I think I know what it is already...0 -
My previous post was not a personal attack on you though it doesnt surprise me that you perceive it that way, you assumed I wanted Iran to have nuclear weapons as it suits your perceptions - persecution and everyone is against us seems to be a stable part of the Israeli psyche it doesnt surprise me that you feel under "attack". This is a general observation of mine you could call it my opinion of which Im entitled and Im stating. Your litany of responses on this thread only stands to reaffirm what Im thinking though I accept that not all Israelis are of this mindset. An Israeli person handing out a "lesson" in psychology is a bit rich dont you think I will refrain from going into detail, but please, spare me.
How you can state that this potential attack is somehow going to be secret is beyond me. The only thing secret about any attack will be the method by which its delivered and even then its hardly secret, your airforce will be involved maybe the flight paths will be a surprise but that is all. Hardly a secret.
The only thing we can be sure of is that Israel has no right to carry out such lunacy - legally or morally. The only thing we can be sure of is that blowing up nuclear plants is the actions of a crazy person. The only thing we can be sure of is thousands of people will die from war and nuclear fallout. The only thing we can be sure of is that Israeli civillians will die along with their Iranian counterparts so on so forth but its obvious all these things come a distant 15th position in your thoughts. When you talk to Iranians do you not think it would be a good idea to try avert what might happen??...instead of finding out if they prepared for the onslaught and slaughter?..Not only are you ok with a nuclear catastrophe in their country you hope they will leave their homes and move away? You have to be kidding me. Is nuclear fallout and death not enough for you - you want thousands of people to uproot and become refugees because your leaders are paranoid freaks?? unbelievable. I may well live in Ireland but this planet belongs to me too and not just Israel. You and people of your mindset would do well to remember this. Thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of people dieing a slow painful death as a result of cancer strikes you as "pretty gloomy"?? how about heartbreaking and wrong? I take it you have never seen someone close to you suffer upclose from such a thing as if you had, regardless of an attack that is unjust, you would not be so indifferent to potential suffering.
How do you know its a question of them or you??? How do you know this Im calling you on this Id like you to back that statement up and prove it please.
Lets say for the sake of argument that you are right and the Iranian military are wrong - they cant fire all them missiles in response - what do you believe the response will be? Do you think they are capable of launching a CBR ballistic missile at your city?? are you familiar with biological warfare?? have you any idea how lethal these virus have become nowadays? Do you know how easy it would be for an Iranian agent to release something into your population and you wouldnt have a clue until a few days later when people started falling. You dont need a missile for that. One agent in a cinema or shopping center somewhere populated in theory could wipe out your people. What about attacks against soft target Israelis all over the planet? have you thought about any of this?? In Israel are you questioning the consequence of doing something so crazy?? are any of you thinking??? or do you just believe you bomb them and its over?? Have you thought about the damage it will cause to our planet?? Or the likelyhood it would escalate far beyond your borders?? have you thought of anything other than yourselves?? I would like to hear your answer though I think I know what it is already...
I think that you are personal because you direct so many emotions to me, and use lot's of question marks. Personal.
About the environmental damage - there is a new statement of this man. It's short:
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=142716
It has been published on several news sites.
I have a little flaw in your thinking - for a person who doesn't know any secret detail above the obvious you presume to know everything.
Israel hasn't launched wars in its history without being the stronger side.
I'm sure that if there will be a descition to attack, it would be based on deep thinking and planning taking everything into account. This situation has been going for several years by now, and Israel has had enough time to prepare for it. There are no "mad actions" as you prefer to draw it.
You are a very pessimistic man in what involves opening wars by Israel, but very optimistic in what involves believing and relying on nations that threaten to wipe out other nations and support terror organizations.
Suit yourself.
I think we have said it all.0 -
Advertisement
-
The Israeli wrote: »You are a very pessimistic man in what involves opening wars by Israel, but very optimistic in what involves believing and relying on nations that threaten to wipe out other nations
Iran didn't say that, and it has been debunked several times already on this thread.The Israeli wrote: »and support terror organizations.
Suit yourself.
Iran are hardly the only ones who do this, which is of course no excuse, but it is rather hypocritical, when such criticism comes from Israel, as Israel is actively supporting terror in the West Bank as we speak.0 -
You are a very pessimistic man in what involves opening wars by Israel, but very optimistic in what involves believing and relying on nations that threaten to wipe out other nations and support terror organizations.
Why are you attacking him for something he didn't say?Israel hasn't launched wars in its history without being the stronger side.
Israel has launched massive pre-emptive strikes before in the past against a large coalition of Arab nations which (under ordinary circumstances) could have easily beaten Israel.0 -
The Israeli wrote: »I think that you are personal because you direct so many emotions to me, and use lot's of question marks. Personal.
About the environmental damage - there is a new statement of this man. It's short:
http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=142716
It has been published on several news sites.
I have a little flaw in your thinking - for a person who doesn't know any secret detail above the obvious you presume to know everything.
Israel hasn't launched wars in its history without being the stronger side.
I'm sure that if there will be a descition to attack, it would be based on deep thinking and planning taking everything into account. This situation has been going for several years by now, and Israel has had enough time to prepare for it. There are no "mad actions" as you prefer to draw it.
You are a very pessimistic man in what involves opening wars by Israel, but very optimistic in what involves believing and relying on nations that threaten to wipe out other nations and support terror organizations.
Suit yourself.
I think we have said it all.
Ok I think you are confusing emotions with emotional maturity are you aware of the difference between the two? Empathy is the trait that makes us what we are Id like to see if you possess and are capable of showing it. You are well able to give me a "lesson" in psychology yet you seem unable to debate or deal with discussion and questions a level above the preconceived perceptions and thoughts that you have. Since when did asking you questions automatically mean I am having a go at you personally. That would be rubbish my friend. Youre making excuses there and you havent answered my questions. When you have asked me certain things I have answered them as best I can it would nice if you could do the same in return. You havent said much at all just the same thing over and over phrased differently - that isnt debate nor discussion. I have lots more to say question is are you capable of rational discussion?..
Hans Blix and whatever other so called expert who have come out and plugged the party line that blowing up Nuclear plants wont cause a catasrophe should hang their heads in shame. Shame on them. Did you even read the link you posted?? Would you like me to explain it to you or show you were it says, that actually yes, it will kill people cause misery and cause a catasrophe. But you dont want to see or hear that do you? Can you imagine the outcry in Israel or the US, Britain, France if the shoe was on the other foot and it was yours or their plants that might be blown up? can you imagine the uproar if it was them and not Iran in the cross-hairs. Double standards and hypocrisy do not do that justice its something so much more than that.
I dont presume to know everything about your military or the attack as Ive said on a previous post, from what I know of your military, Im aware of what you can do. That isnt presuming to know everything its an educated opinion of what you can and cant do from what I know. Clearly even contemplating doing this is crazy in the extreme and madness - the actions of lunatics - to say otherwise or believe otherwise to me is also crazy, thats my opinion and Im entitled to it.
This isnt a point scoring exercise for me I want to engage you in a discussion and people of your mindset as this is so serious and has repercussions and consequence, if it happens, for everyone who lives on this planet not just Israel and Iran. As Wes has pointed out to you the fallacy that Iran wants to wipe your nation out has been debunked many times yet you continue to perpetrate that lie through ignorance or on purpose. I would like to ask you some questions I really do want to hear your opinion on them and would appreciate if if you could reply to me..
Can you show me please and back up with factual evidence that Iran wants to wipe your nation of the map? State your case lets put this bed once and for all...
If the shoe was on the other foot and it was Israeli power plants under threat how would you feel about that?? would you be posting ridiculous nonsense stating blowing such plants up wont cause human or environmental catastrophe??..
I brought up Iranian biological capabilities in my previous post for a reason. I wonder do you know why I did. Have a think to yourself before you reply and see if it dawns on you. You ignored that question completely last time maybe you could respond this time. Are you aware of how lethal these virus have become nowadays?? Do you believe Iran is capable of firing a CBR tipped missile at your cities??..
Lets talk about things Im not attacking you personally. This potential madness needs to be averted and cant happen. Dialogue, comprise and diplomacy is the way forward. The alternative can never be allowed happen.0 -
-
-
In 2004 the legality of sanctions against Iraq were due to expire. This meant that within a decade, i.e. now, Iraq would've been well on the rebound path. Saddam made no secret of his intention to help Palestinians and have Iraq grow as a regional power. That was unacceptable for Israel. We all witnessed what happened to Iraq.
With Iran, the problem is tenfold. Iran is and always will be the powerhouse influence of the Middle East. And she is nowhere near full potential. This is not about WMD (Who would be stupid enough to buy that lie twice?). This is about hegemony. When Iran hits fifth gear it'll dwarf Saudi Arabia and Israel both in terms of economic prowess and regional influence. By extension, naturally, this means militarily as well. And with power comes powerful friends. Eventually Iran will be a fully fledged member of the SCO. And all of this will be peaceful.
Israel can't destroy Iran, but what it can hope for is periodical attacks on its growth. In their eyes, a 2-month aerial bombardment and subsequent sanctions will delay the above by maybe a couple of decades. But its already too late. The time to do this was the 1990's. Iran now projects too much military power. So Israel is in a real bind here. They don't have the capacity to even delay Iranian growth. All they can do is talk crap, threaten and lie.
Saudi oil is almost dry, despite how much they deny it. Iraq has been turned into a Shi'ite outpost for Iran. Iran is taking over the Middle East. Israel is now only a strip of coastal land and its sperm-count has been devastated by the effects of DU making its way back from Palestinian bombardment (Maybe God does act) and the stupidity of development nuclear and other WMD weapons on such a small area of real estate.
Its over for them. The Iranians have to do nothing but wait.0 -
Ok I think you are confusing emotions with emotional maturity are you aware of the difference between the two? Empathy is the trait that makes us what we are Id like to see if you possess and are capable of showing it. You are well able to give me a "lesson" in psychology yet you seem unable to debate or deal with discussion and questions a level above the preconceived perceptions and thoughts that you have. Since when did asking you questions automatically mean I am having a go at you personally. That would be rubbish my friend. Youre making excuses there and you havent answered my questions. When you have asked me certain things I have answered them as best I can it would nice if you could do the same in return. You havent said much at all just the same thing over and over phrased differently - that isnt debate nor discussion. I have lots more to say question is are you capable of rational discussion?..
Hans Blix and whatever other so called expert who have come out and plugged the party line that blowing up Nuclear plants wont cause a catasrophe should hang their heads in shame. Shame on them. Did you even read the link you posted?? Would you like me to explain it to you or show you were it says, that actually yes, it will kill people cause misery and cause a catasrophe. But you dont want to see or hear that do you? Can you imagine the outcry in Israel or the US, Britain, France if the shoe was on the other foot and it was yours or their plants that might be blown up? can you imagine the uproar if it was them and not Iran in the cross-hairs. Double standards and hypocrisy do not do that justice its something so much more than that.
I dont presume to know everything about your military or the attack as Ive said on a previous post, from what I know of your military, Im aware of what you can do. That isnt presuming to know everything its an educated opinion of what you can and cant do from what I know. Clearly even contemplating doing this is crazy in the extreme and madness - the actions of lunatics - to say otherwise or believe otherwise to me is also crazy, thats my opinion and Im entitled to it.
This isnt a point scoring exercise for me I want to engage you in a discussion and people of your mindset as this is so serious and has repercussions and consequence, if it happens, for everyone who lives on this planet not just Israel and Iran. As Wes has pointed out to you the fallacy that Iran wants to wipe your nation out has been debunked many times yet you continue to perpetrate that lie through ignorance or on purpose. I would like to ask you some questions I really do want to hear your opinion on them and would appreciate if if you could reply to me..
Can you show me please and back up with factual evidence that Iran wants to wipe your nation of the map? State your case lets put this bed once and for all...
If the shoe was on the other foot and it was Israeli power plants under threat how would you feel about that?? would you be posting ridiculous nonsense stating blowing such plants up wont cause human or environmental catastrophe??..
I brought up Iranian biological capabilities in my previous post for a reason. I wonder do you know why I did. Have a think to yourself before you reply and see if it dawns on you. You ignored that question completely last time maybe you could respond this time. Are you aware of how lethal these virus have become nowadays?? Do you believe Iran is capable of firing a CBR tipped missile at your cities??..
Lets talk about things Im not attacking you personally. This potential madness needs to be averted and cant happen. Dialogue, comprise and diplomacy is the way forward. The alternative can never be allowed happen.
Hey,
I'll cut to the point - your questions.
- Is Israel capable of this attack?
It is. It can't stop the Iranian nuclear program but it can damage it and give Israel and other nations that oppose Iran more time for further actions.
- Environmental damage
I don't understand why you so easily wave out the experts opinion who was the former head of U.N. nuclear watchdog the International Atomic Energy Agency.
"So called expert". Maybe you know better..
- Civilian casualties
Well, believe it or not, my heart isn't made of stone. I don't know with how many Iranians you have spoken personally, but I have and still do.
Everyday normal people who live there. Believe me, I care for them a lot, and I wouldn't want in the world anything to happen to them. I know that the regular folks are just people like you and me, and I wish them happy and good lives.
After that being said, I don't bury my head in sand and say: Let them have nuclear weapon. It won't change anything. No one will be killed in the future and we'll live happily ever after.
Iran having nuclear weapon will have less of what to fear from Israel. It's appetite and terror support may grow dramatically and it will be immune to any future big attack. It will drastically change power proportions in the region. It may start a new nuclear race in the middle east, and also, if piss gets into their fanatically religious head - there is a chance, even though a little one, that they will use it.
No I think, what is hundreds of lives or a few thousands now (I don't believe in your numbers), compared to a potential of dozens thousands and more in future wars?
I have feelings, but I have reasons too. You can not to agree, but you can't cancel it logically.
- Iran says that the days of Israel are few and threatens all the time that it will come to an extinction. You want proves? There are evidences that Iran tries to hide the development of nuclear weapons.
You can have a look at this new report:
http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/Iran_report_--_August_30_2012.pdf
It is not there yet, but it is on its way, and people like you that sit in higher places not only don't move a finger to stop it, but fail attempts to enforce tougher and earlier sanctions and military backup to them for showing Iran that the western world isn't playing with them.
- Iranian chemical weapons
They have chemical weapons, and Israel presumably has nuclear weapons.
Iran has chemical and nuclear weapons and a dangerous stand, Israel has.. hmm
Got the equation?0 -
- Iranian chemical weapons
They have chemical weapons, and Israel presumably has nuclear weapons.
Iran has chemical and nuclear weapons and a dangerous stand, Israel has.. hmm
Got the equation?
What?0 -
The Israeli wrote: »Hey,
I'll cut to the point - your questions.
- Is Israel capable of this attack?
It is. It can't stop the Iranian nuclear program but it can damage it and give Israel and other nations that oppose Iran more time for further actions.
Thank you for replying..
What would be these further actions in your opinion and what do you think the Iranians would do, should you attack, if they are not attempting to construct a nuclear weapon? If you attack Iran it will be all out war maybe even total war. Do you think it would discourage or encourage them to try obtain such a weapon? By your own logic does this not make an attack on those facilities pointless?...- Environmental damage
I don't understand why you so easily wave out the experts opinion who was the former head of U.N. nuclear watchdog the International Atomic Energy Agency.
"So called expert". Maybe you know better..
Only three possible reasons for a reply like the above a) willfully ignoring the obvious b) blatantly being obtuse c) you cant read and struggle with the English language.
Let me help clear this up for you..from the link you posted I will bold the important information as it appears to have escaped your keen eye for detail..
An Israeli strike on Iran's nuclear facilities is unlikely to bring about a Fukushima- scale nuclear disaster unless a Russian-built reactor is destroyed, according to experts.
"I doubt that the radiation effects would be great," said Hans Blix, a former head of U.N. nuclear watchdog the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), as cited by international media.
However, a potential Israeli attack would cause the Iranian nuclear facilities to release toxic chemicals that will lead to local contamination affecting health and the environment.
"There could be some chemical hazard (from an Israeli attack on Iran's uranium refining plants) but I'd think it would be limited to any nearby communities," said Edwin Lyman, a nuclear expert at the Union of Concerned Scientists in Washington.
On Friday, IAEA and Iran failed to strike a deal aimed at allaying concerns about Tehran's nuclear program, Ynetnews has reminded, citing Reuters. Diplomatic sources say Iran has installed many more uranium enrichment centrifuges at Fordow, a fortified underground site and a likely target in any attack.
Shame on these nuclear experts who try put a "positive" spin on the insanity of blowing up nuclear plants. Anybody who believes blowing up such plants wont cause a frighteningly horrible catastrophe is a complete idiot, in my opinion of course. I asked you this question in my previous post will ask it again in hope that you reply..How would you feel if it was your nuclear plants under threat? Would you be defending and trumpeting an attack?...
_________________________________________________________________- Civilian casualties
Well, believe it or not, my heart isn't made of stone. I don't know with how many Iranians you have spoken personally, but I have and still do.
Everyday normal people who live there. Believe me, I care for them a lot, and I wouldn't want in the world anything to happen to them. I know that the regular folks are just people like you and me, and I wish them happy and good lives.
After that being said, I don't bury my head in sand and say: Let them have nuclear weapon. It won't change anything. No one will be killed in the future and we'll live happily ever after.
Iran having nuclear weapon will have less of what to fear from Israel. It's appetite and terror support may grow dramatically and it will be immune to any future big attack. It will drastically change power proportions in the region. It may start a new nuclear race in the middle east, and also, if piss gets into their fanatically religious head - there is a chance, even though a little one, that they will use it.
No I think, what is hundreds of lives or a few thousands now (I don't believe in your numbers), compared to a potential of dozens thousands and more in future wars?
I have feelings, but I have reasons too. You can not to agree, but you can't cancel it logically.
Your logic is hairbrained, in my opinion, and it doesnt stand up to scrutiny which I will address further when I get to the rest of your post. If you genuinely cared about people as you claim then you wouldnt be indifferent indeed agreeing with the idea of lunatics and trumpeting the blowing up of nuclear plants. I dont doubt that you dont have a heart of stone however I doubt your ability for rational thinking and I cant come to much other of a conclusion from speaking to you so far. Perhaps you will change my mind the more we talk but as things stand thats how I feel. You talk of future wars?? what if your nation isnt around to fight these future wars after launching an outrageously crazy attack against Iran? Have you thought about that...Is there not a little chance that all nations who possess these horrible weapons, including your nation, that they might use them? assuming the Iranians want one that is..- Iran says that the days of Israel are few and threatens all the time that it will come to an extinction. You want proves? There are evidences that Iran tries to hide the development of nuclear weapons.
You can have a look at this new report:
http://isis-online.org/uploads/isis-reports/documents/Iran_report_--_August_30_2012.pdf
How is that proof that Iran wants to destroy Israel? Explain to me your thinking behind that? Id like you to back that statement up with factual verifiable evidence please. Not the usual paranoid hyperbole that is usually presented as a casus beli for an unjustified illegal morally wrong attack. Please prove that Iran wants to destroy Israel an NPT report , of which Israel is a non-signatory continuing to stick two fingers up to the International community whilst using said report as an excuse to beat Iran, is not proof. Are you serious?..It is not there yet, but it is on its way, and people like you that sit in higher places not only don't move a finger to stop it, but fail attempts to enforce tougher and earlier sanctions and military backup to them for showing Iran that the western world isn't playing with them.
Can you please elaborate on your higher places comment. Why should I support an unjust attack because of your leaders paranoia? explain to me why..- Iranian chemical weapons
They have chemical weapons, and Israel presumably has nuclear weapons.
Iran has chemical and nuclear weapons and a dangerous stand, Israel has.. hmm
Got the equation?
Actually no I dont get the equation, honestly havent a clue what you are getting at here but I do know you missed the point of my original comment and even though I asked you to have a think about what I was getting at before you replied, it still went way over your head. This is where your logic - that Iran wants to wipe Israel off the map - does not stand up to scrutiny. The Iranians have one of the most sophisticated and deadly bioweapon programs on the planet. The effectiveness of these virus to mutate and kill human beings has developed to such a stage that its beyond scary. They have had this ability for many many years. Israel and Iran have been living side by side in a defacto non-nuclear state of MAD for a number of years and you and people of your mindset/argument dont even know it. The Iranians if they really wanted to, that is "wipe" Israel out , could launch a biological attack against your nation and you would be nearly powerless to stop it. Yet they havent. So what does this tell you?...before I answer that question Id like to know what you think...0 -
Border-Rat wrote: »In 2004 the legality of sanctions against Iraq were due to expire. This meant that within a decade, i.e. now, Iraq would've been well on the rebound path. Saddam made no secret of his intention to help Palestinians and have Iraq grow as a regional power. That was unacceptable for Israel. We all witnessed what happened to Iraq.
With Iran, the problem is tenfold. Iran is and always will be the powerhouse influence of the Middle East. And she is nowhere near full potential. This is not about WMD (Who would be stupid enough to buy that lie twice?). This is about hegemony. When Iran hits fifth gear it'll dwarf Saudi Arabia and Israel both in terms of economic prowess and regional influence. By extension, naturally, this means militarily as well. And with power comes powerful friends. Eventually Iran will be a fully fledged member of the SCO. And all of this will be peaceful.
Israel can't destroy Iran, but what it can hope for is periodical attacks on its growth. In their eyes, a 2-month aerial bombardment and subsequent sanctions will delay the above by maybe a couple of decades. But its already too late. The time to do this was the 1990's. Iran now projects too much military power. So Israel is in a real bind here. They don't have the capacity to even delay Iranian growth. All they can do is talk crap, threaten and lie.
Saudi oil is almost dry, despite how much they deny it. Iraq has been turned into a Shi'ite outpost for Iran. Iran is taking over the Middle East. Israel is now only a strip of coastal land and its sperm-count has been devastated by the effects of DU making its way back from Palestinian bombardment (Maybe God does act) and the stupidity of development nuclear and other WMD weapons on such a small area of real estate.
Its over for them. The Iranians have to do nothing but wait.
Leaving aside your assessment of the Middle East and where its moving - if your idea of it all merely being frabication to stifle Iranian growth then why would the Iranian authorities not remove completly the casus beli for sanctions and allow the IAEA full access? With a report saying their nuclear program is purely peaceful and completly above board, the cover for sanctions would no longer exist, in your estimation.
Thats the problem with CTs on this issue, its entirelly within Irans power to blow it out of the water, with little to no repurcussions against itself - were its intentions purely peacful.0 -
Advertisement
-
How is that proof that Iran wants to destroy Israel? Explain to me your thinking behind that? Id like you to back that statement up with factual verifiable evidence please. Not the usual paranoid hyperbole that is usually presented as a casus beli for an unjustified illegal morally wrong attack. Please prove that Iran wants to destroy Israel an NPT report , of which Israel is a non-signatory continuing to stick two fingers up to the International community whilst using said report as an excuse to beat Iran, is not proof. Are you serious?..
.
"The nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land.... A new Middle East will definitely be formed. With the grace of God and help of the nations, in the new Middle East there will be no trace of the Americans and Zionists,"
Its easy to argue that sanctions or an attack is a bad, counter productive idea without trying to argue that Iran and its leadership do not have an aggressive policy visa vis Israel and the US. It is all very well documented - repeatedly calling another state "the great Satan" (or a cancerous tumour) and holding a conference to reassess the Holocaust under the auspices of the Foreign Ministry are two pretty obvious examples.
It does not require "paranoid hyperbole" for Israel or the US to legitamitly view Iran as an enemy, Iran's leadership seek to portray themselves as little else.
Thats not an argument that they are ready to drop nukes, but a little honesty with regard to Iranian policy is required.
Just a quick google http://news.yahoo.com/tumour-israel-soon-destroyed-ahmadinejad-091548418.html
http://news.yahoo.com/irans-ahmadinejad-says-no-place-israel-middle-east-110501279.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/18/world/middleeast/in-iran-ahmadinejad-calls-israel-insult-to-humankind.html
Its attitude really couldnt be clearer, anyone who seeks to downplay their rhetoric, or claim its all lies to make them seem more dangerous or aggressive, is either lying or ill informed.
Why do people on this thing never google when making a point that has a legitamite right or wrong answer?0 -
"The nations of the region will soon finish off the usurper Zionists in the Palestinian land.... A new Middle East will definitely be formed. With the grace of God and help of the nations, in the new Middle East there will be no trace of the Americans and Zionists,"
Its easy to argue that sanctions or an attack is a bad, counter productive idea without trying to argue that Iran and its leadership do not have an aggressive policy visa vis Israel and the US. It is all very well documented - repeatedly calling another state "the great Satan" (or a cancerous tumour) and holding a conference to reassess the Holocaust under the auspices of the Foreign Ministry are two pretty obvious examples.
It does not require "paranoid hyperbole" for Israel or the US to legitamitly view Iran as an enemy, Iran's leadership seek to portray themselves as little else.
Thats not an argument that they are ready to drop nukes, but a little honesty with regard to Iranian policy is required.
Just a quick google http://news.yahoo.com/tumour-israel-soon-destroyed-ahmadinejad-091548418.html
http://news.yahoo.com/irans-ahmadinejad-says-no-place-israel-middle-east-110501279.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/18/world/middleeast/in-iran-ahmadinejad-calls-israel-insult-to-humankind.html
Its attitude really couldnt be clearer, anyone who seeks to downplay their rhetoric, or claim its all lies to make them seem more dangerous or aggressive, is either lying or ill informed.
Why do people on this thing never google when making a point that has a legitamite right or wrong answer?
Where am I arguing that Iran doesnt have an aggressive stand toward Israel of the US. And how do you think they should react in the face of constant threats from Israel in particular and in a more tacit way , sanctions need time, from the US. Or the fact that Iran is surrounded by US military bases and forces. Or that somebody has been killing civilian scientists. Do you expect them to be meek and placid about such things?
What is very well documented?? Where exactly is this evidence and documentation that people like yourself claim exist showing that the Iranians want to level every building in Israel and kill every man and woman and child? because thats the weak mythical argument that defenders of such action trumpet and stand behind. Calling a nation/regime the great Satan or a cancerous tumor is not evidence of anything, obviously. Take that to a court of law and try prove guilt on that basis you would be laughed out of the place quicker than you can say, that was silly. If youre going to continue to peddle that nonsense then prove it. Show me the money, please.
"The Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumour," he
said.
"If they make a mistake, our nation's reaction will lead to the end of the Zionist regime," he said.
Those quotes are from the first link you posted. You need to prove if you are going to claim that Iran wants to wipe the entire Israeli nation out, that infact thats what they want to do.
What do you expect the Iranian stance toward the current rulers of Israel should be??..do you expect them to be ok in the face of a nuclear catastrophe in their country caused by an unjust and wrong and ludicrous attack by the Israelis?...what do you expect them to say??..
"Downplay their rhetoric" which country is threatening to blow up nuclear plants?..
So which am I then a liar or ill informed?? or is that a general comment and not directed at me? look forward to hearing what you have to say about that...
Clearly the Israeli leaders are paranoid and the claim that Iran wants to kill every single person in the land of Israel parabole of the highest standard.Why do people on this thing never google when making a point that has a legitamite right or wrong answer?
Elaborate on that for me please.0 -
Where am I arguing that Iran doesnt have an aggressive stand toward Israel of the US. And how do you think they should react in the face of constant threats from Israel in particular and in a more tacit way , sanctions need time, from the US. Or the fact that Iran is surrounded by US military bases and forces. Or that somebody has been killing civilian scientists. Do you expect them to be meek and placid about such things?
Its really irrelevant if you believe Iran's stance is justified. The fact of their position and rehtoric remains.What is very well documented?? Where exactly is this evidence and documentation that people like yourself claim exist showing that the Iranians want to level every building in Israel and kill every man and woman and child? because thats the weak mythical argument that defenders of such action trumpet and stand behind. Calling a nation/regime the great Satan or a cancerous tumor is not evidence of anything, obviously. Take that to a court of law and try prove guilt on that basis you would be laughed out of the place quicker than you can say, that was silly. If youre going to continue to peddle that nonsense then prove it. Show me the money, please.
"The Zionist regime and the Zionists are a cancerous tumour," he
said.
"If they make a mistake, our nation's reaction will lead to the end of the Zionist regime," he said.
Those quotes are from the first link you posted. You need to prove if you are going to claim that Iran wants to wipe the entire Israeli nation out, that infact thats what they want to do.
Wow, you know what? I never thought about it like that before... Israel threatening to blow up the reactors isnt really a threat against Iran too, right? Its more of a threat againts reactors. This is really grassping at straws here...
It really is equivocation plain and simple. It really doesnt get much clearer than this in international affairs. An attempt to completly seperate a "regime" and a country is laughable. Even more so when the term "Zionist" is used.
Ahmadinejad, in his speech, claimed that "Zionists" triggered World Wars I and II, and had "taken control over world affairs since the moment they became dominant over the US government."
What is thie "Zionism" that caused the first and second world war? If you dont think this has extreme echo's of anti-semitism you dont know enough about the subject. Very clearly its not the "government of Israel" or whatever it is you are trying to pretend the threats apply to. Its BS like this that makes it so hard to take your position serious.
Why do I have the distinct feeling that if the US said exactly the same thing towards Iran, you would see it as a direct threat?
Its hardly the only example, they are near constant if you could be bothered to listen.What do you expect the Iranian stance toward the current rulers of Israel should be??..do you expect them to be ok in the face of a nuclear catastrophe in their country caused by an unjust and wrong and ludicrous attack by the Israelis?...what do you expect them to say??..
Its irrelevant if you think Iran's language and threats are completly justified, the US and Israel similarly, by your logic, have a right and responsibility to react.
Just FYI it has been going on much longer than the nuclear issue. I know what you are going to say, obviously they had other excellent reasons to threaten etc, but then they always will, wont they?
What I expect is Iran to allow the IAEA full access, thereby proving that it is all just a big lie. Shouldnt be a big issue if they are telling the truth, frankly."Downplay their rhetoric" which country is threatening to blow up nuclear plants?..
So which am I then a liar or ill informed?? or is that a general comment and not directed at me? look forward to hearing what you have to say about that...
Clearly the Israeli leaders are paranoid and the claim that Iran wants to kill every single person in the land of Israel parabole of the highest standard.
Elaborate on that for me please.
Ah so one coutnry is completly out of line threatening to attack the reactors, whilst the other is merely reacting fairly when threatening to remove the "cancerous tumour" that is the other state? The moral and logical loops that must be jumped through to try and keep the blame in the right place must be tiring...
I think you see and dont see whatever you want to see and not see. Its remarkable.
If you believe it requires Israelis to be paranoid to see enemies in the region you know little to nothing of the history, politics and sheer rascism of the wider region.
My point is that what IRanian officials say is widely documented, and can be read by anyone that wants to at least attempt a balanced position. The catch, of course, is how few people want to know about ills from the side they wish to pitty.0 -
Its really irrelevant if you believe Iran's stance is justified. The fact of their position and rehtoric remains.
Wow, you know what? I never thought about it like that before... Israel threatening to blow up the reactors isnt really a threat against Iran too, right? Its more of a threat againts reactors. This is really grassping at straws here...
It really is equivocation plain and simple. It really doesnt get much clearer than this in international affairs. An attempt to completly seperate a "regime" and a country is laughable. Even more so when the term "Zionist" is used.
What are you wowing for where is your evidence that they want to kill every man woman and child in Israel?? where is it. This is your position. Are you trying to be funny or something or just being silly on purpose. Israel is threatening to attack Iran, blow up their nuclear plants and cause a catastrophe in that country. Show me where the Iranians are threatening to blow up Israeli plants. Do you need me to explain the difference to you between the words regime and nation? no problem if you are having difficulty differentiating between the two of them let me know.Ahmadinejad, in his speech, claimed that "Zionists" triggered World Wars I and II, and had "taken control over world affairs since the moment they became dominant over the US government."
What is thie "Zionism" that caused the first and second world war? If you dont think this has extreme echo's of anti-semitism you dont know enough about the subject. Very clearly its not the "government of Israel" or whatever it is you are trying to pretend the threats apply to. Its BS like this that makes it so hard to take your position serious.
Irrelevant. Its BS like this that takes away from the matter at hand. That being the Israelis are threatening a military strike that has consequence far beyond their borders. And the lunatic idea of blowing up nuclear plants.Why do I have the distinct feeling that if the US said exactly the same thing towards Iran, you would see it as a direct threat?
Its hardly the only example, they are near constant if you could be bothered to listen.
Because it is a direct threat - when you threaten to blow things up - its direct. So yes I would see it as a direct threat. ( Israels threats to blow up nuclear plants ) what exactly are you asking me here? said what?..Its irrelevant if you think Iran's language and threats are completly justified, the US and Israel similarly, by your logic, have a right and responsibility to react.
Just FYI it has been going on much longer than the nuclear issue. I know what you are going to say, obviously they had other excellent reasons to threaten etc, but then they always will, wont they?
What I expect is Iran to allow the IAEA full access, thereby proving that it is all just a big lie. Shouldnt be a big issue if they are telling the truth, frankly.
Youre talking nonsense here and nowhere have I said that the Iranian language or threats are justified. Go show me where Ive stated that , justified , and when you cant find it I want you to retract that comment. Show me that statement please. There are two of them at it both of them are talking language but its Israel threatening war. If the Israelis want the IAEA in their corner do you not think it would be easier for them to disclose their own weapons therefore taking the moral high ground?..why are the Israelis allowed constantly get away with double standards. There is another issue at hand other than just Israeli paranoia. If they disclose their own weapons it would be a game changer in the region.Ah so one coutnry is completly out of line threatening to attack the reactors, whilst the other is merely reacting fairly when threatening to remove the "cancerous tumour" that is the other state? The moral and logical loops that must be jumped through to try and keep the blame in the right place must be tiring...
I think you see and dont see whatever you want to see and not see. Its remarkable.
If you believe it requires Israelis to be paranoid to see enemies in the region you know little to nothing of the history, politics and sheer rascism of the wider region.
My point is that what IRanian officials say is widely documented, and can be read by anyone that wants to at least attempt a balanced position. The catch, of course, is how few people want to know about ills from the side they wish to pitty.
Your point is watery and its the same line hashed over and over again its tiring at this stage. The Israeli position is this and by default the people who support their current leaders mindsight - Iran wants to wipe us all out and kill every man woman and child, we must attack before this happens - thats their position. If they and the people who support them truly believe that then they are paraniod and know nothing about history,geopolitics and reality. Your post is sanctimonious in the extreme. You need to back up what youre saying Sam so make your case. Where is the evidence that Iran is going to launch an attack against Iran and kill every man woman and child and destroy the nation of Israel?? where is it?? and if you post the litany of non-evidence you did in your last post as a response I will ask the same thing again. So show us the evidence, please..0 -
What are you wowing for where is your evidence that they want to kill every man woman and child in Israel?? where is it. This is your position. Are you trying to be funny or something or just being silly on purpose. Israel is threatening to attack Iran, blow up their nuclear plants and cause a catastrophe in that country. Show me where the Iranians are threatening to blow up Israeli plants. Do you need me to explain the difference to you between the words regime and nation? no problem if you are having difficulty differentiating between the two of them let me know.
It is my position? How nice of you to tell me my own position! Please tell me where I said anything like that. Im not stupid enough to think that Iran is only really threatening if they go through a list of the people they will kill in Israel :rolleyes: Really the position that what Iran says and does is all perfectly in line with that of a normal state that should be treated as such has no basis in reality.
If you cannot see the enormous threat in the links I posted, which btw are merely a drop in the ocean of the vitriol that is the Iranian leadership, you really lack basic reading comprehension skills, much less any nuanced view of international affairs.Irrelevant. Its BS like this that takes away from the matter at hand. That being the Israelis are threatening a military strike that has consequence far beyond their borders. And the lunatic idea of blowing up nuclear plants.
Nope, the BS that stops me having even the beginings of an intelectual debate with you is your total dismisal of enormous evidence that Iran is both threatening and dangerous, purely on the basis that it would force some complexity into your own opinion.
Please, if its such BS, tell me who these Zionists are that you believe are so seperate from the citizens of Israel? This is extremly important, and not to be blown off. If you are so comfortable with these people being killed (for, amoungst other things starting both world wars) who are they? And, perhaps more importantly, please explain to us who the president of Iran believes they are and why this mean that really threatening to wipe them out is not big deal?
I havent even given my position on whether or not Israel should attack yet, your vision of the entire situation is so warped I cant even get to that. Really its fascinating how enormously simplistic peoples views are on this and other topics. Either Iran is a victim and is only gently chiding when calling Israel a tumour or they are the devil incarnate and Israel can do no wrong. You people are completly incapable of analysing evidence in a fair fashion.
To help try this - If tomorrow Israel and US release a statement saying they will wipe the regime in Iran away, would you view it in the same way you now view Iran's threat? I remind you its far from the only one.Because it is a direct threat - when you threaten to blow things up - its direct. So yes I would see it as a direct threat. ( Israels threats to blow up nuclear plants ) what exactly are you asking me here? said what?..
:rolleyes: so it has everything to do with it not being as general as them threatening destroying the tumour that is Iran and wiping out its supporters and nothing to do with your politics? Please, its a very blatant attempt to vilify one party for threatening an attack and shrugging off the other, far more vitriolic, threat. Its completly transparent to be honest.Youre talking nonsense here and nowhere have I said that the Iranian language or threats are justified. Go show me where Ive stated that , justified , and when you cant find it I want you to retract that comment. Show me that statement please.
"What do you expect the Iranian stance toward the current rulers of Israel should be??..do you expect them to be ok in the face of a nuclear catastrophe in their country caused by an unjust and wrong and ludicrous attack by the Israelis?...what do you expect them to say??.." That is text book apologism, really if that wasnt your intention you should work on your communication skills.There are two of them at it both of them are talking language but its Israel threatening war. If the Israelis want the IAEA in their corner do you not think it would be easier for them to disclose their own weapons therefore taking the moral high ground?..why are the Israelis allowed constantly get away with double standards. There is another issue at hand other than just Israeli paranoia. If they disclose their own weapons it would be a game changer in the region.
Hardly, the enormous rascism and hate does not stem from Israels nuclear weapons program.
Why should they give a crap if you believe they would gain the moral high ground? I have the distinct feeling you, and people like you, and more importantly Iran would then change your position to "they must destroy the weapons to have the moral high ground".
They are treated in the same fashion as Pakistan and India, actually. They get away with double standards because
1./ the international system requires states to sign up to the NPT
2./ every state is not going to react in the exact same way when another state oversteps its bounds. The very idea is ludicorous. The last line of argument from apologists of various regimes is often "The West did nothing when x y or z did a similar thing" as though this somehow sinks the legality or morality of an action. It doesnt, to put it simply - who the **** cares? Governments certainly shouldnt - they should be concerned with defending their citizens and their interests, not running around being a world policeman.
If Iran wished leway to the same extent India, Pakistan or Israel enjoy a good start would be not chanting "death to America" whenever they got a crowd together. Or not declaring how much they believe the hidden Imam is soon to reveal himself.
Countries are free to form a policy based on what country they are dealing with. That you would even imply thats not the case is an indication of, at least, extreme childishness.Your point is watery and its the same line hashed over and over again its tiring at this stage. The Israeli position is this and by default the people who support their current leaders mindsight - Iran wants to wipe us all out and kill every man woman and child, we must attack before this happens - thats their position. If they and the people who support them truly believe that then they are paraniod and know nothing about history,geopolitics and reality. Your post is sanctimonious in the extreme. You need to back up what youre saying Sam so make your case. Where is the evidence that Iran is going to launch an attack against Iran and kill every man woman and child and destroy the nation of Israel?? where is it?? and if you post the litany of non-evidence you did in your last post as a response I will ask the same thing again. So show us the evidence, please..
So, your position is Israel should only be worried if Iran releases a statement saying how they wish to kill every man woman and child in Israel? :rolleyes: Powerful argument, you must work for the CFR.
There is more than enough evidence that Iran considers Israel an enemy, really I couldnt be bothered to google it again, everyone is more than aware that Iran has basiccally defined itself as an enemy of the US and Israel since the revolution. But no point in me wasting my time googling - Ill just grab a quote from about 2 weeks ago.
The head of Iran's powerful Revolutionary Guards, General Mohammad Ali Jafari, told the Fars news agency as he attended the Tehran rally that "the Iranian nation has always been at the forefront of the (regional anti-Israeli) resistance in showing its animosity with Israel."
You really dont get anymore unambiguos than that.
Just drop the point that Iran means no harm and never said anything to indicate it ment it - very very clearly its a non starter.
The General was even nice enough to basically directly contradict you.0 -
Wish everyone with any interest in this issue would watch these two pieces through carefully. Please give them a look/listen with as open a mind as possible and if you think there's bullsh1t in the Amonpour piece then please support your argument rather just tell me it's a load of sh1te etc
.. I've read and watched so much in this space for quite some time now and the Amonpour piece is easily the most factual down to earth and comprehensive 25 min explanation of the whole 'Nuclear' Iran thing produced by anyone so far.
I would say that the most important quote is from General Martin Dempsey when he says,
"We do think that Iran is a rational actor"
I should state my position: I think Iran is not currently actively chasing a nuclear weapon nor has any chance in hell of developing any sort of usable nuclear arsenal (i.e. at least half a dozen ready-to-rock nuclear weapons) in the next decade under any circumstances.
I also don't think the general feeling in Washington supports striking Iran at all.
I don't think Israel has the physical capability to do enough damage to Iran's alleged nuclear weapon program in the scenario that it does exist to even bother trying or even threatening to try and would at best only encourage an all-out effort for the bomb by Iran (although the world would turn so very quickly on Israel if they even tried that I think Iran would restrain itself from foolishness and just watch as every ounce of any credibility Israel has left with the international community (about a teaspoon; and I'm not an Israel-hater) disappears forever.
I think there are hawkish/far right/Israeli lobby/whatever you want to call them individuals who have/are/and will continue to try and raise the heat on this thing because of fairly extreme world views and that these people have a lot in common with the folks who beat the drums for Iraq/WMD's BUT thankfully the world learns sometimes and in this case the entire American population and its media are not taking the entire bait and running with it.. and have been and are offering some intelligent and balanced push-back... and this is encouraging to me and my faith in mankind : )... which doesn't happen too often.
Finally I think that the whole issue ideally actually requires a decent understanding of appropriate history and International Relations in order to form a supportable opinion because there is so much more at play here than nuclear weapons and rhetoric and war-mongering... this whole thing seems to be more about a complex US/Israel/MIddle East/Iran influence chess game and all those playing it right now know in detail all the actual facts over which we skim ignorantly in my view... so from Netanyahu to the Ayatollah to General Martin Dempsey to Dr Larijani to Pres Obama... all involved know well-enough where Iran is, as far as Nuclear weapons go and know that Iran poses no threat to anyone whatsoever.. There are some genuinely extreme and committed voices in Israel and in Washington and in the American Media sphere who believe in the 'great evil Iranian threat' but most respected intellectuals simply believe these peoples views can be accurately summed up as 'Wrong-Sizing Risk'
(nor do I believe that Iran is poised to become, as somebody said, some kind of super powerhouse of oil and business etc... they are not... they will grow their economy nicely but the prediction of massive quick growth outpacing Saudi Arabian wealth etc does not compute on any level and correlates to scare-mongering in a way.. kinda like the foolish China is taking over the world in the next 10 years stuff you read... )
so,- Not currently actively chasing a nuclear weapon
- Don't think the general feeling in Washington supports striking Iran at all.
- Israel hasn't the physical capability to do enough damage to Iran's alleged nuclear weapon program to even bother
Hawkish lobby have tried to raise the heat on this thing because of fairly extreme world views a la 'America as the absolute leader, the influencer, fate-maker, judge and jury etc etc..
Media are not taking the entire bait and running with it, thank god, it was touch and go there for a while.
Complex influence chess game and all those playing it right now know, in detail, all the actual facts a lot of the rest of us tend to overlook.
Extreme and committed voices in Israel and in Washington and in the American Media sphere who believe in the 'great evil Iranian threat' - can be summed up as 'Wrong-Sizing Risk'0 -
Might as well put this one in too... love or hate him he makes a case here...
0 -
Be like Nutella wrote: »
- Not currently actively chasing a nuclear weapon
- Don't think the general feeling in Washington supports striking Iran at all.
- Israel hasn't the physical capability to do enough damage to Iran's alleged nuclear weapon program to even bother
I agree to an extent with these points - however the indication is that Iran is seeking to have the capacity to be on the cusp on nuclear weapons - in conjunction with their rocket program this is very indicative.
On the last point this seems to be the general concensus - that Israel could feasibly knock back the time required for a nuclear weapon by a few years but not destroy it completly.
The question of whether it should bother is based on many different considerations - what may happen in the intervening years after a strike, what they believe Iran will or would do with the weapons if they aquired them and how other nations would react. The idea that they "wouldnt bother" is too broad a judgment and a little flippant - they are certainly taking it very seriously despite others estimation that they shouldnt take what Iran says literaly or to heart.0 -
agree with the flippancy.
but I didn't want to do all this again: a re-post
From what I've read, at this point I don't think any air strike campaign 'alone' by either the US or Israel or both combined could end Irans Nuclear Weapons program IF they actually have one in full fling at present.
The main issues are:
The number of targets previously thought necessary to destroy were maybe achievable – something like 50-100 targets… that’s what was being bandied about originally… before Iran had got to 20% enrichment and started moving sht all over the place and building all sorts of undergournd stuff etc..
However over the last few years that estimate has (publicly) multiplied to the point where the number of aircraft required, ordnance necessary and the scale of support of such an operation has knocked the idea right out of reality.
Blatant Problems include:
· The route planes would take i.e. big air space permission issues... even/especially over Iraq.
· Carrier vs Land Base support? The distances involved include major refueling issues and a very drawn out complicated and very complex schedule of sorties... prob all from carrier groups in the gulf.
· The scale of the potential operation is now considered outside of any level which could be SOLD to any of the relevent parties involved... EU /UN /US Public etc etc
· And would by the mere fact it would be a drawn out affair and include A LOT of planes etc would GUARANTEE 'unacceptable' losses, downed planes etc
And finally when all is said and done - the whole thing WOULD NOT BE WORTH doing....because all the experts agree... and I'm not just bandying that about... read the white papers theyre all saying the same thing...even the feckin AEI is in agreement here... it (a massive drawn out fantastical air-strike campaign) would just push the date of Iran becoming a Bona Fide Nuclear Power down the road, maybe, at a push, 6 years... which doesn't sound too bad in a way but alas... the concensus is: It just wouldn't be worth it.
FECK THE AIR-STRIKE OPTION - WHY DON'T THEY JUST INVADE IRAN?
Well the BROOKINGS INSTITUTE did a report on all that.. if anyone's interested it's pretty much THE REPORT on all this stuff... and it breaks down Military options for the US and then does the Pro's and Con's... fairly well written easy to understand white paper.
http://www.brookings.edu/papers/2009/06_iran_strategy.aspx
Here's some quotes to give ya feel for their opinions (these lads are not just some profs or thinks tank republicans or democrats we're talking ex admin guys, ex military, ex cia mid east analysts, game theorists etc etc)
"
Disadvantages:
......costly in a whole variety of ways. Iran is
arguably a more complex, convoluted, and
conflict-ridden society than either Iraq or
Afghanistan. But like Iraq, it would be too
important to be cast aside after deposing
the regime and razing all its nuclear and
terrorist-support facilities. The invasion itself
would be large and costly, but the effort
needed to occupy, secure, and then build a
new Iranian state—one capable of governing
the country effectively without falling
into chaos or inciting new anti-Americanism—
would be far more so. Even if Washington
has learned all of the lessons of Iraq
and Afghanistan and handles an invasion
of Iran in a much better fashion, this option
would cost tens—if not hundreds—of billions
of dollars a year for five to ten years.....................
and it goes on from there to say things like....
"
It would require the commitment of the
better part of U.S. ground forces for several
years, and could necessitate a much greater
commitment and expansion of American
ground forces than at any time since the
Second World War. It might even require
the institution of partial conscription for
some period of time and would divert badly
needed assets away from both Iraq and
Afghanistan.Hundreds or possibly thousands
of American military personnel
would die in the invasion itself.....
"
Moreover, an invasion of Iran has the potential
to damage the longer-term strategic
interests of the United States. Such an invasion
could well redefine America’s position
in the international order in a particularly
deleterious manner. Especially given that
such a war would probably have less support
than the invasion of Iraq, and would be
undertaken by an administration other than
that of George W. Bush, it would likely loom
far larger than the Iraq War in the thinking
of other people and governments. It could
well settle the debate over whether the United
States is an aggressive, unilateralist imperial
power or a mostly benign and uniquely
unselfish hegemon. Americans have always
seen themselves as the latter, and there are
many people around the world who still
view the United States that way despite the
events of 2001-2008—in large part because
some agree that there were justifications for
the war in Iraq, and others simply blame
American actions on an aberrant administration.
An invasion of Iran could eliminate
the lingering basis for that support and
profoundly alter global perspectives on the
United States, which over time would inevitably
translate into commensurate shifts in
policy against this country.
___________________________________
I haven't made my mind up whether Iran is really out to become a nuclear power or not yet... but then again I only know as much as the US and the IAEA and that's fcuk all... there is absolutely no CIA intelligence network in Iran... they burned the whole thing by mistake some years ago when a laptop was found with all kinds of sht on it and that was that... and that's been publicly admitted to. So most of what we've been hearing is based on conjecture not too disimilar to the crap before Iraq but anyway all that's neither here nor there the question is COULD THE US OR ISRAEL OR BOTH - KNOCK OUT IRANS NUCLEAR CAPABILITY/DEVELOPMENT?
NO THEY COULD NOT AND WILL NOT... at least not in the air-strike-only scenario...
· too large,
· too difficult,
· too much collateral damage,
· too expensive,
· too many planes,
· too many logistical challenges,
· no international support,
· unassailable legal barriers,
HUGE poorly understood risks to the stability of the general region including the possibility of beginning massive region wide war and unacceptable loss of US planes over a very drawn out period of sorties all of which could force a full scale invasion option anyway... which I'm not saying I want... but if we're being logical here then... it is in fact the only option available even theoretically which could actually prevent Iran from getting to the Bomb IF thats what Iran wants.... which it may do I don't know...and neither does anyone... either way they are certainly being successful in making fukin eejits out of the Americans in all this crap...0 -
Advertisement
-
I agree completly - the options are limited and none are good. What do you believe SHOULD be done?
My personal opinion, on a wider scale, is that every country that illegaly gets nuclear weapons should have targeted sanctions placed on them untill the nuclear arsenal is confirmed to be destroyed (or they all IAEA inspectors to prove the peaceful nature of their program). If it is not applied all the time, and it should, I do not hold the view that it therefore should never be applied - the stakes are far far too high for something as pithy as that to allow full scale proliferation.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TtIpiXle98Advertisement