Who cares about the Leaving Cert?

blakfact

It's a joke of an exam. None of the material is audited by international standards, and the people who design and implement these exams, aka, overpaid work shy public sector workers, are unaccountable to the other citizens of this country. In short when you consider project maths, Union strikes, holidays and everything else associated to the Leaving Cert, the whole thing is a bloody joke.

People like to pretend it's important, but the moment you step outside of Ireland, it has little to no meaning. Good luck trying to get into a real University with a Leaving Cert. You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses? Think again. It's not worth the paper it's written on, and the Unions know this.

What Ireland needs to do, is abolish all state exams, and give the responsibility of exams at the end of school to an internationally recognised body capable of actually designing a proper system. The teachers then simply teach to that system. The public sector does not deserve the ability to actually create their own exams, because they aren't properly audited:mad:

Fukuyama

blakfact wrote: »

It's a joke of an exam. None of the material is audited by international standards, and the people who design and implement these exams, aka, overpaid work shy public sector workers, are unaccountable to the other citizens of this country. In short when you consider project maths, Union strikes, holidays and everything else associated to the Leaving Cert, the whole thing is a bloody joke.

People like to pretend it's important, but the moment you step outside of Ireland, it has little to no meaning. Good luck trying to get into a real University with a Leaving Cert. You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses? Think again. It's not worth the paper it's written on, and the Unions know this.

What Ireland needs to do, is abolish all state exams, and give the responsibility of exams at the end of school to an internationally recognised body capable of actually designing a proper system. The teachers then simply teach to that system. The public sector does not deserve the ability to actually create their own exams, because they aren't properly audited:mad:

I take it you're repeating then.

AeoNGriM

Worst 'I failed my Leaving Cert' thread ever

Fukuyama

In all seriousness everyone knows the LC isn't a measure of intelligence. It's a measure of how hard you can work and a test to see if you can apply yourself.

That, in my opinion, counts for a whole lot more in life.

blakfact

I got 450 actually 7 years ago. I consider it a waste of time now, not then.

davet82

Who cares about the Leaving Cert?

Teachers, parents, children yet to sit it, people getting results today, colleges, some jobs, the minister for education...

Casillas

I prefer to see continuous assessment over 5th/6th year. It would show the students were they stand, where they need to improve and actually give them a chance to learn something for real.

Trying to force students to cram everything into their heads for the sake of a few days exams is utter madness. It's outdated.

Tombi!

We get it, it's mostly a memory test with a "how fast can you write before you hand gives out" test. With a bit of maths.

Gee Bag

blakfact wrote: »

What Ireland needs to do, is abolish all state exams, and give the responsibility of exams at the end of school to an internationally recognised body capable of actually designing a proper system.

Would you care to identify such an internationally recognised body?

Father Damo

Dean0088 wrote: »

In all seriousness everyone knows the LC isn't a measure of intelligence..

Agreed.

That, in my opinion, counts for a whole lot more in life.

Could not disagree more. I fail to see why a complete idiot who manages to wing four years in college deserves a well paid management position that they are ill equipped for when a bloke who had better things to be doing in their teen years than cramming for exams but who has a vastly superior intellect in terms of literature, history, politics, general knowledge, common sense, organisational skills etc etc etc would not be considered because they do not have an irrelevant piece of paper stating that on a few particular days of their life one managed to memorise a certain amount of life- irrelevant information. I have met complete idiots with degrees who are thick as two planks and yet somehow wrangle a well paid job. Likewise I have met complete geniuses doing menial or low paid work. The UK in particular seems to be pretty bad for this. I have met some college graduates, some of whom were destined for the teaching profession, who knew absoloutely sh1te all about anything.

Nobody is saying Joe Public off the street should be allowed a crack at medicine, law or IT with no training whatsoever, but the Americanised shift in this country from the 80s on to demand a ualification for well paid but ultimately intelligent decision making work, the type of job that 50 years ago was given to the smartest school leaver rather than the luckiest 3rd level graduate, is frankly ridiculous. Here in Australia there is much less emphasis on 3rd level education and it is a better system IMO.

blakfact

Casillas wrote: »

I prefer to see continuous assessment over 5th/6th year. It would show the students were they stand,

Terrible idea. The public sector can't even run proper internationally recognised state exams, let alone ferret out cheating, which isn't easy when you are dealing with CA. It won't happen. The worlds most respected Education systems like Finland and South Korea, outlaw CA for good measure.

blakfact

Gee Bag wrote: »

Would you care to identify such an internationally recognised body?

I am assuming that because you are posting this, you have access to a web browser, so go ahead and type it into google. I don't answer trivial queries without payment. You don't pay my wages.

Diapason

I cared back then, so did the CAO, so did my employers after college (in the UK). It's certainly true that it's not the be-all and end-all, but it can certainly help you get where you want to go.

Jester252

The LC only affect the length of time and amount of money needed to get the job you what. If you don't get what you what there is always a way around.

Gee Bag

blakfact wrote: »

I am assuming that because you are posting this, you have access to a web browser, so go ahead and type it into google. I don't answer trivial queries without payment. You don't pay my wages.

Your the one who has just signed up to boards to rant on two different forums about the same topic, you should at least be prepared to engage with others posters.

Bipolar Joe

I did all my schooling in the UK, and got my mind blown when I learned about the point system. It's dumb, especially when the points needed for a course in University are based on popularity, not how hard they are. That's the first thing that needs to be sorted, but it never will.

blakfact

Gee Bag wrote: »

Your the one who has just signed up to boards to rant on two different forums about the same topic, you should at least be prepared to engage with others posters.

Within reason.

Gee Bag

blakfact wrote: »

Within reason.

So I take it you can't name such a body?

Ah well, have fun with your ranting. I'll leave you to it.

It wasn't me!

So you're saying people with Irish leaving certs can't go to Oxford or Cambridge? You're going to want to rethink that...

Diapason

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

I did all my schooling in the UK, and got my mind blown when I learned about the point system. It's dumb...

Aspects of it are perhaps, but in an Ireland with a reputation of a "who you know" culture, it's at least transparent. When I was growing up and not part of the right set, that was important to me. I knew if I did well enough in the LC I'd get the college place I wanted, no if, ands or buts.

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

especially when the points needed for a course in University are based on popularity, not how hard they are. That's the first thing that needs to be sorted, but it never will.

I agree with you there, and I think the biggest failing of the CAO system is that there's very little regard paid to getting the "right" people on the "right" college courses. I don't have an answer to that, but I agree it should be addressed.

Biggins

At the end of the day, the leaving cert is used as a good starting gauge for employers, as to aspects and make-up of the potential employee in front of them at an interview or by postal submission alone.

Its a combination of the above and a rough indicator of how hard working a person can be and what knowledge they excel at and indeed, if they are educated in some areas at all.

Once you get your leaving cert, be it very good, bad or average - after that, its how you use it and yourself in further application that will decide your future.

What little (or large) qualifications and with history of trying to better one's self beyond the school gates (keep a record of all your efforts, even if they fail), it all adds up to giving you better chances of going through other doors of employment and/or opportunity.

The leaving Cert is NOT the end of all things.
* Its a tool for the now ex-student to use - and how they use it with further personal experience, will help decide direction and future.
* The leaving cert is just a tool for employers to start to measure up a potential employer that has entered through their doors as a stranger.

A tool is only as good as how its used and by whom.

full_irish

blakfact wrote: »

You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses? Think again. It's not worth the paper it's written on, and the Unions know this.

Cambridge Medicine Entry Requirements

^^^^ Hey look they do! And I have a friend studying there so now that we've shown that this point is bull****...

SocSocPol

Gee Bag wrote: »

Would you care to identify such an internationally recognised body?

International Baccalaureate, Some english private schools have switched to this.

http://www.ibo.org/

"The IB Diploma Programme is designed as an academically challenging and balanced programme of education with final examinations that prepares students, normally aged 16 to 19, for success at university and life beyond. The programme is normally taught over two years and has gained recognition and respect from the world's leading universities."

Fukuyama

Father Damo wrote: »

Agreed.




Could not disagree more. I fail to see why a complete idiot who manages to wing four years in college deserves a well paid management position that they are ill equipped for when a bloke who had better things to be doing in their teen years than cramming for exams but who has a vastly superior intellect in terms of literature, history, politics, general knowledge, common sense, organisational skills etc etc etc would not be considered because they do not have an irrelevant piece of paper stating that on a few particular days of their life one managed to memorise a certain amount of life- irrelevant information. I have met complete idiots with degrees who are thick as two planks and yet somehow wrangle a well paid job. Likewise I have met complete geniuses doing menial or low paid work. The UK in particular seems to be pretty bad for this. I have met some college graduates, some of whom were destined for the teaching profession, who knew absoloutely sh1te all about anything.

Nobody is saying Joe Public off the street should be allowed a crack at medicine, law or IT with no training whatsoever, but the Americanised shift in this country from the 80s on to demand a ualification for well paid but ultimately intelligent decision making work, the type of job that 50 years ago was given to the smartest school leaver rather than the luckiest 3rd level graduate, is frankly ridiculous. Here in Australia there is much less emphasis on 3rd level education and it is a better system IMO.

But if a genius is lazy then he's useless to an employer.

Hard workers with smarts don't need formal education. Look at Richard Branson. He left school at 15.

Richard Hillman

It aint worth much in fairness. Its worth as much as the Junior/inter cert used to be back in the day. What the Leaving Cert is though is your 1st gateway to college.

It meant feck all to me when i passed it. I didnt try a bone in school, put very little effort into doing well in it but still did ok and felt a bit anti climatic because i wondered how well i would have actually done had i tried.

I think it means more to the Parents than the students. A friend of my family's daughter passed today, her mother is beaming with pride and she is the 1st of the family to do so. My cousin also did well today but its par for the course on that side of my family. College graduation is deemed the true success in terms of academics because the standard has been set high. The family has turned from a normal working class family that did well with their children and it led to a high standard being set and will now become a family of high achievers.

On my other side of the family, i dont actually think anyone has completed the leaving cert or gone to college and in general its a fairly unambitious family. Passing a leaving cert would be a big deal.


In conclusion. It means a lot to people some people but its par for the course with others.

Diapason

Pedantic note: there is no "passing" or "failing" the LC any more. You just get marks.

Knifey Spoony

blakfact wrote: »

Good luck trying to get into a real University with a Leaving Cert. You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses?

So, all Universities in Ireland aren't real Universities?

Father Damo

Dean0088 wrote: »

But if a genius is lazy then he's useless to an employer. [/quotes]

Alot of graduates are criminally lazy.

Hard workers with smarts don't need formal education. Look at Richard Branson. He left school at 15.

Exactly. The amount of self made millionaires/ billionaires of working class background who have any type of business, managing or marketing qualification is near zero. Mainly because successfully identifying an untapped market niche, acquiring capital, and putting your business brand out there requires intellect, not a piece of paper saying you read a few irrelevant books on the subject.

steddyeddy

Bsically its sending the wrong person into the wrong course. Its not for purpose.

Diapason

Father Damo wrote: »

Exactly. The amount of self made millionaires/ billionaires of working class background who have any type of business, managing or marketing qualification is near zero.

That's fair enough, but I don't know many self-made millionaires. I know lots of people who didn't give a sh*t about the Leaving Cert, who performed below their ability, and who now feel trapped in dead-end jobs, though. There are always outliers in the tails of the distribution, but they're not so meaningful to the rest of the population.

It's obviously true to say that if you work hard you might be able to attain success no matter what your educational background. Of course that's true, but that's not the same as saying the Leaving Cert doesn't matter. The sorry truth is that for lots of people it really *does* matter.

Carson10

Personally i think the Leaving Cert really does shape your future, but its hard to see that when your 17/18.

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it. These are the people that are posting up on FB things such as "doesnt matter if you failed or passed, just enjoy your night, and stupid pictures like, Bill Gates failed his exams now hes the owner of microsoft.

These were the people who caused havoc at school disrupted class, were bad mannered towards teachers, never done their homework and went out of their way to make other students lifes misery. And before you ask, no i wasnt bullied at school, but saw it all happen.

Anyways all i know is that iam happy i worked hard at school and got a good leaving cert/University education and now have the job i want. Puts a smile on my face every time i drive through town and see 'the trouble makers/failers from my school days" in their tracksuits pushing prams heading for the dole.

Ficheall

Diapason wrote: »

I know lots of people who didn't give a sh*t about the Leaving Cert, who performed below their ability, and who now feel trapped in dead-end jobs, though.

I know lots of people who did well in their Leaving Cert, got a degree, and now can't get any jobs at all - do those two groups cancel each other out?


I learned more (academically) in my 5 years of Leaving Cert preparation than I did in my eight years of college.

Ficheall

Carson10 wrote: »

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it. These are the people that are posting up on FB things such as "doesnt matter if you failed or passed, just enjoy your night, and stupid pictures like, Bill Gates failed his exams now hes the owner of microsoft.

These were the people who caused havoc at school disrupted class, were bad mannered towards teachers, never done their homework and went out of their way to make other students lifes misery.

That's quite the bull**** generalisation you have there.

Carson10

has any1 ever repeated the leaving when they got to say 27/28 that wants to be a Vet or DR.?

Remember writing a foolscaped page for a leaving cert answer seemed like climing a mountain.

steddyeddy

Carson10 wrote: »

Personally i think the Leaving Cert really does shape your future, but its hard to see that when your 17/18.

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it. These are the people that are posting up on FB things such as "doesnt matter if you failed or passed, just enjoy your night, and stupid pictures like, Bill Gates failed his exams now hes the owner of microsoft.

These were the people who caused havoc at school disrupted class, were bad mannered towards teachers, never done their homework and went out of their way to make other students lifes misery. And before you ask, no i wasnt bullied at school, but saw it all happen.

Anyways all i know is that iam happy i worked hard at school and got a good leaving cert/University education and now have the job i want. Puts a smile on my face every time i drive through town and see 'the trouble makers/failers from my school days" in their tracksuits pushing prams heading for the dole.

Thats a black and white opinion shaped by a black and white exam. Many people academics didnt do great in the leaving cert. They did acccess courses and went in as a mature student.

The syllabuses for the science students are crazy and dumbed down to a large level. They in know way indicate who will make the best scientist. Also while you may have had good teachers many people do not.

Its definatly not down to trouble makers. I was a natural scientist and do extremely well in college. Nothing in the leaving cert good test that.

Carson10

Ficheall wrote: »

That's quite the bull**** generalisation you have there.

maybe bull for you but its not for me. suppose the TRUTH hurts

Gee Bag

SocSocPol wrote: »

International Baccalaureate, Some english private schools have switched to this.

http://www.ibo.org/

"The IB Diploma Programme is designed as an academically challenging and balanced programme of education with final examinations that prepares students, normally aged 16 to 19, for success at university and life beyond. The programme is normally taught over two years and has gained recognition and respect from the world's leading universities."

Thanks SocSocPol,

I had heard of the I.B. before. I kind of assumed it was meant for the children of diplomats or business people who were spending a relativley short period of time in a foreign country. I was specifically interested in the history curriculum, some of which appears to be quite good. However, I think there's a lot to be said for students learning the history, civics and language of the country they live in.

The IBO don't really do what the OP was suggesting i.e. administer the entire education system of a country.

Thats my two cents anyway.........

Ficheall

Carson10 wrote: »

maybe bull for you but its not for me. suppose the TRUTH hurts

Is this bit supposed to suggest that I fit your earlier description, and that I must therefore be bitter about how enlightened and successful you are? Is that really where you're going with that?

Gurgle

Ficheall wrote: »

I know lots of people who did well in their Leaving Cert, got a degree, and now can't get any jobs at all - do those two groups cancel each other out?

I learned more (academically) in my 5 years of Leaving Cert preparation than I did in my eight years of college.

Did you spend those 8 years in the same college as your unemployed graduate friends?

This says more about the college/course than the Leaving Cert.
I learned more in first year engineering than in secondary school.

As for what the leaving cert is worth:
With it you can get into entry level jobs in a wide variety of employment, from factory worker to retail to office admin.
You can get into college / university / PLC courses.

Without it you are limited to the dole, unskilled labour or nepotism to make a living.

stevenmu

Father Damo wrote: »

Could not disagree more. I fail to see why a complete idiot who manages to wing four years in college deserves a well paid management position that they are ill equipped for when a bloke who had better things to be doing in their teen years than cramming for exams but who has a vastly superior intellect in terms of literature, history, politics, general knowledge, common sense, organisational skills

"Oh hi, I'm a genius. I can't prove it because I have better things to do, mostly drinking I presume, but really I am great. I'd like to be CEO please".

At least the "complete idiot" who manages to "wing their way" through college, has demonstrated a level of competency, and demonstrated that they can actually accomplish and deliver on something.

That's the whole point of the leaving cert, and other exams. They're not there to prove how intelligent you are, they are to prove that you have learned and can put that knowledge into practice. If you can't prove that because you have "better things to be doing", then why should anybody think you will be capable of doing anything?

Carson10

steddyeddy wrote: »

Thats a black and white opinion shaped by a black and white exam. Many people academics didnt do great in the leaving cert. They did acccess courses and went in as a mature student.

The syllabuses for the science students are crazy and dumbed down to a large level. They in know way indicate who will make the best scientist. Also while you may have had good teachers many people do not.

Its definatly not down to trouble makers. I was a natural scientist and do extremely well in college. Nothing in the leaving cert good test that.

Well the school i went to was a VEC in the Northwest. The students were either from nearby rural areas or extreme town. The teachers were rubbish tbh and spent most of their time disciplining students from town who were out of control. Believe me, ive seen everything. Nowadays i dont see how fellow students from my year are doing on FB, i check the local paper for them in court appearance and jail sentences.

I do agree though that the leaving Cert in no way reflects or shapes you for your chosen career, but it does separate the good from the bad. My initial comment was directed at those moaning about doing good in the leaving, because they know they done **** because they didnt do an ounce of work and mainly caused trouble..Look ive seen it first hand.

Martyn1989

blakfact wrote: »

People like to pretend it's important, but the moment you step outside of Ireland, it has little to no meaning. Good luck trying to get into a real University with a Leaving Cert. You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses? Think again. It's not worth the paper it's written on, and the Unions know this.

I know 2 people who got into Cambridge with the Irish leaving cert

ViveLaVie

Carson10 wrote: »

Personally i think the Leaving Cert really does shape your future, but its hard to see that when your 17/18.

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it. These are the people that are posting up on FB things such as "doesnt matter if you failed or passed, just enjoy your night, and stupid pictures like, Bill Gates failed his exams now hes the owner of microsoft.

These were the people who caused havoc at school disrupted class, were bad mannered towards teachers, never done their homework and went out of their way to make other students lifes misery. And before you ask, no i wasnt bullied at school, but saw it all happen.

Anyways all i know is that iam happy i worked hard at school and got a good leaving cert/University education and now have the job i want. Puts a smile on my face every time i drive through town and see 'the trouble makers/failers from my school days" in their tracksuits pushing prams heading for the dole.

Er no...not true. A lot of people just see it for what it is, a test of memory and diligence and not an accurate measure of intelligence. And before you ask, I did very well in my LC.

It's good that you're happy about your achievements but I think looking down on others who didn't achieve the same is quite horrible. Just remember it could be you queuing for the dole one day. I know too many people to count who have excellent degrees and even Ph.Ds who can't get jobs.

Gurgle

ViveLaVie wrote: »

looking down on others who didn't achieve the same is quite horrible. Just remember it could be you queuing for the dole one day.

Looking down on people who tried and failed is horrible. Looking down on people who have never done an hours work in their life is perfectly appropriate.

It could be you.
For the people Carson10 is referring to, it was never could.

Damn right look down on them, and point them out to your kids.
"I went to school with him, he was nothing but a nuisance and a messer. Now look at him."

SocSocPol

Martyn1989 wrote: »

I know 2 people who got into Cambridge with the Irish leaving cert

Professor(Emeritus) PJ Drudy not only got into it, but he became a Fellow of Cambridge. I know a few people who have studied there.
That said I do not believe the LC is fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

Ficheall

Gurgle wrote: »

For the people Carson10 is referring to...

...everyone who complains about the Leaving Cert, oui?

Feisar

Who cares? my Mother cares, my little brother is after doing another disastrous leaving and she is really upset. Like the lad failed Ag Science. I wouldn't mind if he wasn't the brightest but he just has no interest in applying himself at all.

Diapason

SocSocPol wrote: »

That said I do not believe the LC is fit for purpose in the 21st Century.

I think the problem is that the LC has more than one "purpose", and it's going to be next to impossible to make one set of exams fit for all of them.

Gurgle

Ficheall wrote: »

...everyone who complains about the Leaving Cert, oui?

Carson10 wrote:

disciplining students from town who were out of control
Nowadays i dont see how fellow students from my year are doing on FB, i check the local paper for them in court appearance and jail sentences.
they know they done **** because they didnt do an ounce of work and mainly caused trouble

Tip:
After you've skimmed over or skipped a page of comments, it's possible to go back and read the details. This saves on guessing what was said.

I have plenty of complaints about the leaving cert and how its run, but I have seen nothing constructive on this thread on how to improve it. Just the usual keyboard warrior 'blame someone' whinefest.

Ficheall

Gurgle wrote: »

Ficheall wrote: »

...everyone who complains about the Leaving Cert, oui?

Tip:
After you've skimmed over or skipped a page of comments, it's possible to go back and read the details.

Carson10 wrote: »

The only people today who are moaning about the leaving cert are the people who failed it.

To quote a great man:

Gurgle wrote: »

Tip:
After you've skimmed over or skipped a page of comments, it's possible to go back and read the details.

1ZRed

I'm not the Leaving Cert's biggest fan but I honestly don't know how to improve it because it's never going to suit everyone whatever way they do it.

What I don't like though is how last year, before the syllabus was changed for a lot of subjects, the exams were marked harder and this year, with a much more revised and slimmed down curriculum, it had been marked less intensively.
I did my leaving last year and I felt a bit cheated because in a lot of regards, the biology, Maths and Irish were less difficult than what they were just a year ago.

That's my only complaint, and I know it has no real relevance in the thread, but I suppose I'm highlighting the inconsistencies of the exams more than anything.