Who cares about the Leaving Cert?

Blisterman

Well the difference is English students do three A Levels compared to our 6.
They're not really comparable. The percentage of As is much higher over there.

Gurgle

Quorum wrote: »

If an A-Level grade is required for a course at a UK university, an A1 at honours level in the relevant LC subject WON'T suffice. The standard just isn't higher enough.

A Levels is not the equivalent to Leaving Cert, you're comparing apples and oranges.

You do A Levels in 3 or 4 subjects (Usually 4 taken and 3 results counted for college entry)
You do LC in 6 or 7 subjects (Usually 7 taken, 6 counted for college entry)

If you're doing half the number of subjects, its easy to cover twice as much material.

Quorum

Blisterman wrote: »

Well the difference is English students do three A Levels compared to our 6.
They're not really comparable. The percentage of As is much higher over there.

Gurgle wrote: »

A Levels is not the equivalent to Leaving Cert, you're comparing apples and oranges.

You do A Levels in 3 or 4 subjects (Usually 4 taken and 3 results counted for college entry)
You do LC in 6 or 7 subjects (Usually 7 taken, 6 counted for college entry)

If you're doing half the number of subjects, its easy to cover twice as much material.

I know that, that's not my point.

My point is if you want to get into a college course in the UK that requires an A-level A-grade, and you get an A1 in the equivalent LC subject, it won't suffice. So, the difference in standards CAN affect you if you wish to study in another country. And if you look at the specific requirements for courses at decent UK universities, they tend to be much higher than for Irish universities.

Namlub

Gbear wrote: »

I just noticed it specifically from about 2 years ago because I knew a few people in that year and they had removed the teaching of calculus from the curriculum.

In 20 years time the entire exam will be reciting your times tables with the aid of your Log Book.:pac:

They haven't removed the teaching of calculus from the curriculum, get your facts straight.

Cool Mo D

Quorum wrote: »

I know that, that's not my point.

My point is if you want to get into a college course in the UK that requires an A-level A-grade, and you get an A1 in the equivalent LC subject, it won't suffice. So, the difference in standards CAN affect you if you wish to study in another country. And if you look at the specific requirements for courses at decent UK universities, they tend to be much higher than for Irish universities.

The leaving cert works perfectly well to get into UK colleges. It doesn't actually matter in practice if you know less going in, the important stuff will be covered again.

You do generally need very good results to get into a UK university, but it works vice versa as well - a UK student that could get into Oxford or Cambridge with 3 perfect A levels would find it very hard to get a place in a high demand course over here, since an A at A level is counted as 150 leaving cert points, which was apparently benchmarked by UCAS.

Generally 4 As in the leaving cert is enough to get you in anywhere, except Oxford or Cambridge.

Gbear

Namlub wrote: »

They haven't removed the teaching of calculus from the curriculum, get your facts straight.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/dumbed-down-curriculum-203892.html

Looks like I jumped the gun. I heard they were getting rid of it but I was mistaken as to when.

If they're not removing it they're certainly reducing it in scope. According to that article they're also reducing or removing vectors (Why? They're really easy.) and matrices.

Quorum

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The leaving cert works perfectly well to get into UK colleges. It doesn't actually matter in practice if you know less going in, the important stuff will be covered again.

You do generally need very good results to get into a UK university, but it works vice versa as well - a UK student that could get into Oxford or Cambridge with 3 perfect A levels would find it very hard to get a place in a high demand course over here, since an A at A level is counted as 150 leaving cert points, which was apparently benchmarked by UCAS.

Generally 4 As in the leaving cert is enough to get you in anywhere, except Oxford or Cambridge.

Actually, lots of non-Oxbridge courses have SPECIFIC requirements that are quite high. A level As and whatnot. I recall when I was doing my LC reading about the UCAS system and it being pointed out many time that an LC A wasn't equivalent. This was for places like Queens in Belfast.

paperclip2

Quorum wrote: »

Actually, lots of non-Oxbridge courses have SPECIFIC requirements that are quite high. A level As and whatnot. I recall when I was doing my LC reading about the UCAS system and it being pointed out many time that an LC A wasn't equivalent. This was for places like Queens in Belfast.

That's why UK colleges often ask that a LC applicant have a minimum of 5-6 subjects with a specified number of A's or B''s etc at Hons level.
A-level applicants, as has been said, only do 3-4 subjects with the best three being used for applications. LC applicants do more subjects and this compensates for the less specialised knowledge they have.
Irish students will also be expected to have specific subjects covered in the LC curriculum.
My daughter is applying to a UK university for language courses. The specified grades she will need is a minimum of B grades in 5 hons LC subjects including one in a European language. The same course looks for a minimum of B's in three A level subjects including the relevant language.

Anita Blow

Quorum wrote: »

If an A-Level A grade is required for a course at a UK university, an A1 at honours level in the relevant LC subject WON'T suffice. The standard just isn't higher enough, an A-Level A grade is more advanced. I can vouch this, having studied biology in college. All the English students had already learned all the first year material for their A-Levels, while the LC students had a lot of new material to learn.

As has been said, A Levels are studied to nearly a 1st year college level, but students only take 3 or 4 subjects. UK Colleges do take this into account when deciding on Irish entry requirements.

The Leaving Cert isn't trying to be like the A-Levels and to be honest I don't think it ever should. It provides a broad-based education, exposing students to many different subjects/areas which leads to students having a better idea of what they want to do in college.
With the A-Levels, once you pick your 3 subjects, you're basically locked in to a career based on those subjects. What if I wanted to do Physics in 5th year, and chose my 3 A-Level subjects based on that, and then in 6th year decide I want to do Psychology instead?

The points system, while not perfect, is non-specific, so a student has right up until a month and a half before the CAO Offers to change what course they want to do, which I think is a necessary trade-off for having students pick their career so young.

I think that while the LC has it's flaws, it's a decent system which educates people in at least 6 different subjects so they have a better education overall. It is not based on regurgitation of memorised answers to the extent that some posters make it out to be and it does reward those who can apply themselves.
The point was made that people who aren't book smart, but might be practical and creative are at a disadvantage which I really don't agree with. The person who chooses Art, Music, Engineering, Construction, DCG, Construction, LCVP etc. (all of which are practical, creative) has just as much a chance of getting 600 as the person who chooses physics, chemistry, applied maths. The points system provides a common way of expressing how good a person is at their chosen subjects.
The CAO System also offers probably one of the most transparent access systems to college. There is absolutely no room from discrimination or bias as the only details a college gets about you is a CAO Number. In the UK, colleges even have access to the other colleges you put down on your UCAS form.

Quorum

paperclip2 wrote: »

That's why UK colleges often ask that a LC applicant have a minimum of 5-6 subjects with a specified number of A's or B''s etc at Hons level.
A-level applicants, as has been said, only do 3-4 subjects with the best three being used for applications. LC applicants do more subjects and this compensates for the less specialised knowledge they have.
Irish students will also be expected to have specific subjects covered in the LC curriculum.
My daughter is applying to a UK university for language courses. The specified grades she will need is a minimum of B grades in 5 hons LC subjects including one in a European language. The same course looks for a minimum of B's in three A level subjects including the relevant language.

In some cases, it doesn't compensate. Like you may need a general, say, AAB for a course, but one of those would need to be an A-Level A in a specific subject. And in such cases, I know that when I was checking out courses, it was pointed out that an LC A was not sufficient. It depends.

Anita Blow wrote: »

The Leaving Cert isn't trying to be like the A-Levels and to be honest I don't think it ever should.

I never said it was or should be. Just pointing out that in some cases, it does matter that the LC isn't as advanced.

Blisterman

Anita Blow wrote: »

The point was made that people who aren't book smart, but might be practical and creative are at a disadvantage which I really don't agree with. The person who chooses Art, Music, Engineering, Construction, DCG, Construction, LCVP etc. (all of which are practical, creative) has just as much a chance of getting 600 as the person who chooses physics, chemistry, applied maths. The points system provides a common way of expressing how good a person is at their chosen subjects.

I suppose that's true. The problem is that that's not often an option. Out of the list you've given, my school only offered art, and to do that I would have had to drop a language.

I know in the A levels, there seem to be thousands of subjects available to take, from graphic design to law. Everyone I speak to has taken different subjects.

Maybe the solution is to have a reasonably high number of subjects to choose from which suit different skills and abilities, while still having a points system based on your top six subjects.

To ensure parity, and prevent certain subjects being percieved as "easy", they could be graded across the country on a percentile system. Top 10% A, next 20% B, etc. I honestly don't know why they're not already done like that.

Ray Palmer

It is weird that some of the most respected colleges being US colleges don't need an international monitored exam.
Some subjects are just memory based but others aren't. Try doing tech drawing or engineering based on memory.

I must say I use a lot of stuff I learned in secondary. More importantly the discipline learned then has been valuable. Interactions with peers and authority was needed too.
Learning about stupid rules applied badly is a good lesson. No I didn't need to cut my hair to work.

Eurovisionmad

blakfact wrote: »

You think Cambridge and Oxford let people with 600 Irish points into their courses? Think again.

But they do! They gave your man who got 9 As an offer of Medicine in Cambridge if he got 6 A's which he got safely.

When I thought you were going to say that all state exams across the world were pointless then there might've been merit to your argument but in general the Leaving Cert is no better nor worse than most school exams across the world. This is just another badly thought out rant!

Anita Blow

Blisterman wrote: »

I suppose that's true. The problem is that that's not often an option. Out of the list you've given, my school only offered art, and to do that I would have had to drop a language.

That's a really annoying problem in this country and it's down to the fact that we have too many little schools instead of having less schools overall, but amalgamating the smaller schools into bigger ones. I was lucky enough to go to a big school so we had plenty of subjects to choose from.
There really should be a system in place where if there's enough relative demand for a subject, it should be offered. I say relative because subjects like chemistry and physics will never have as much of a demand as Business lets say, but I'd say a class of around at least 11 (which was the size of my chem class) is enough demand to justify a class for niche subjects like that.

I know in the A levels, there seem to be thousands of subjects available to take, from graphic design to law. Everyone I speak to has taken different subjects.

Maybe the solution is to have a reasonably high number of subjects to choose from which suit different skills and abilities, while still having a points system based on your top six subjects.

From what I've heard of the A-Levels though, one of the biggest criticisms is that the subject choice is too broad, so you have situations where Universities won't accept some of the subjects.
I don't think it'd work here due to our small school problem, where we can barely provide the subjects we have at the moment.

I think the LC at the moment provides the best attempt at offering a wide subject choice in the arts, science and practical subjects, with limited resources, while not offering subjects just for the sake of it, and which wouldn't appear to hold as much value as other established subjects. I mean looking at the list of A Levels, there's no way an A in a subject like Food Studies or Travel&Tourism, or Leisure&Tourism could hold as much value as an A in Chemistry or Physics in my opinion.

Daveysil15

Carson10 wrote: »

These were the people who caused havoc at school disrupted class, were bad mannered towards teachers, never done their homework and went out of their way to make other students lifes misery. And before you ask, no i wasnt bullied at school, but saw it all happen.

in their tracksuits pushing prams heading for the dole.

I know people like the ones you just described who were troublesome, but they matured a lot and managed to get decent jobs later in life. There are also people who were good in school, worked hard and still did badly in their LC. It's not as black and white as you make it out.

What's wrong with tracksuits? Should people be wearing suits to the dole office?