Serbia v Republic of Ireland match thread.

Corholio

Amazing to think Trap, in his huge reluctance to try out new players, may actually have to as he's falling out with so many of the current ones.

noodler

Corholio wrote: »

Amazing to think Trap, in his huge reluctance to try out new players, may actually have to as he's falling out with so many of the current ones.

In fainess, Under Trap

Walters
Cox
McCarthy
Andrews
Whelan
Green...
Westwood (at leats in terms of gametime - maybe he was in some of the previous managers' squads).
Coleman
Best
Fahey

have all either been brought into squads by Trap or seen their gametime signifcantly increase from previous managers. Probably a few more there I am forgetting.

clubberlang12

noodler wrote: »

In fainess, Under Trap

Walters
Cox
McCarthy
Andrews
Whelan
Green...
Westwood (at leats in terms of gametime - maybe he was in some of the previous managers' squads).
Coleman
Best
Fahey

have all either been brought into squads by Trap or seen their gametime signifcantly increase from previous managers. Probably a few more there I am forgetting.

To presume that Trap, and only Trap, would have brought these player into or given them more game time than other managers is ridiculous. Most of those players mentioned would have being either too young or playing at a lower level of football previous to Trap's commencing his tenure. Coleman and McCarthy would have been, and more than likely seen more game time, in any Irish squad by any other manager. Nearly every other player you mentioned, bar Green and Best, were plying their trade in the Premiership when called up. Best himself had also played at uder-age level for Ireland and just finished a good season for Coventry when called up as cover. It is a more than logical assumption that every one of these players would have being called up(bar Paul Green), or given game time, within an Irish squad during this period. To be quite honest, your point is not valid at all in response to the previous poster comment.

noodler

clubberlang12 wrote: »

To presume that Trap, and only Trap, would have brought these player into or given them more game time than other managers is ridiculous.

Indeed, nor did I infer it - I merely made the point the Trap has had no problem blooding new players in general.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Most of those players mentioned would have being either too young or playing at a lower level of football previous to Trap's commencing his tenure. Coleman and McCarthy would have been, and more than likely seen more game time, in any Irish squad by any other manager.

Conjecture.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Nearly every other player you mentioned, bar Green and Best, were plying their trade in the Premiership when called up. Best himself had also played at uder-age level for Ireland and just finished a good season for Coventry when called up as cover. It is a more than logical assumption that every one of these players would have being called up(bar Paul Green), or given game time, within an Irish squad during this period.

Disagree there. The selection of Whelan and Andrews was kind of unexpected when the WC2010 campaign started.

Regarding your premiership point, most of our players play in the EPL traditionally so I do not understand your point there. Surely it is the selections made within this pool of players that is important.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

To be quite honest, your point is not valid at all in response to the previous poster comment.

To be frank, it completely is and to address specifically the point the previous pointer made about Trap having a

reluctance to try out new players

I made a list of the players who have been give their chance under Trap.

clubberlang12

Of course Trap has a problem blooding new players. It is quite obvious he has a set number of players in his mind-set and continues to use those players to suit his system. How long has it taken for McCarthy to get a run in the team? How long has it taken Coleman to get a run in the team? Would McClean have got the game time and Euro call-up if it weren't for the public outcry? How long would Kilbane have remained our first choice left back if he hadn't got injured? Everything Trap has done in his 4+ years of Irish management would indicate he does have a problem blooding new players. Who has being called up for an international cap in the intervening period that would not have done so under different management?

The original poster stated that for a manager who seems reluctant to change his personal, his on-going falling out with squad members may drive him to do just that. You replied with a list of players who 4 years ago were either A) too young to be considered or plying their trade in a lower level, or both in some cases. In those intervening 4 years the players you mentioned have seem themselves elevated to Premier League status.

have all either been brought into squads by Trap or seen their gametime signifcantly increase from previous managers.

It would have being likely that most of these would have being called up to previous squads for the points mentioned above. Of course Trap was going to have to blood some new player on his arrival, as any manager has to, the fact remains that the team has remained very much unchanged during his period and that is an undeniable fact.

noodler

Trap has blooded alot of new players in the last four years (either for first caps or extended playtime). Some might not have been who we initially wanted (Andrews, Whelan, Keogh) or even as fast as we wanted (Coleman, McCarhty etc).

As I said, Andews and Whelan have far surpassed any possible expectations I could have had when they were both drafted in at the expense of Andy Reid - to think we'd be be a handball away from a Peno shoot-out for the WC or to actually qualify with those guys in midfield shocked me.

McCarthy? Well, it didn't happen as soon as people would have liked perhaps but it was understandable in the sense he had the above two who were getting results and then McCarhty's sad personal factors in the summer.

I think Long was always going to get in due to his own performances in the last two years at club level but Walters, and particularly Cox, were good calls. Who would have seen the level of performance Cox showed in such a crucial game against Armenia coming after so much time on WBA's bench? I am quite pleased he resisted calls to call in Stokes now in hindsight (not that that is a critique of him rather an acknowlegement of the other options working well).

We are remarkably well served by wingers so I don't personally give the McClean story much. He only rose to fame in January onwards when we had already qualified and a place on the plane to Poland was about as much as he could have expected. It is a new campaign now and it rightfully looks like he will get gametime.

Trap has also shown extensive faith in St Ledger and O'Dea and both of them, as far as I am concerned, have been nothing but impressive when called upon.



10 or so players I initially listed may not seem like alot over a 3/4 year period. However, in a team with such automatic fixtures like Keane, Given, Dunne, Duff and O'Shea there was only ever going to be so much room for experementation in the big games.


Personally? I never wanted Andy Reid gone (he may have fallen from grace since but that does not justify anything imo).

I also thought Kilbane should have gone a little sooner but I reconsidered that stance after watching Ward.

I also wanted O'Shea in the middle but St Ledger has turned me around.

clubberlang12

In fairness Noodler, i like the majority of your posts on here as you articulate them well, and everyone will have their own opinion. My opinion is that, nearly all the names you mentioned, would have being drafted into the Irish squad over the last 4 years regardless of who was in charge because of our limited player pool. The natural evolution of any team requires some amount of change and with previous ageing squads Trap was always going to have a certain amount of new players drafted in. This doesn't necessarily mean he is one that bloods new players. In fact he has probably given more game time to certain players in the last 4 years than he probably should have. This again would indicate either a supreme belief in said players or an un-willingness to change. I believe it is probably a case of both, which in my opinion is harming the natural progress of the team.

noodler

clubberlang12 wrote: »

In fairness Noodler, i like the majority of your posts on here as you articulate them well, and everyone will have their own opinion.

Appreciated.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

My opinion is that, nearly all the names you mentioned, would have being drafted into the Irish squad over the last 4 years regardless of who was in charge because of our limited player pool. The natural evolution of any team requires some amount of change and with previous ageing squads Trap was always going to have a certain amount of new players drafted in.

Well, it seems harsh to criticise him for the players he didn't bring in but then give him no credit for the ones he did. I really don't think another manager would have brought in Whelan, Andrews, Cox and possibly O'Dea / St Ledger and used them as much as Trap has.

clubberlang12 wrote: »

This doesn't necessarily mean he is one that bloods new players. In fact he has probably given more game time to certain players in the last 4 years than he probably should have. This again would indicate either a supreme belief in said players or an un-willingness to change. I believe it is probably a case of both, which in my opinion is harming the natural progress of the team.

Again, some credit has to be acknowledged for the players he has brought in if we really want to be apply criticism for those left out.

He may have persisted with Kilbane too long (even though the replacements aren't all that obvious given Ward's form). He also may have persisted with Doyle (as an automatic starter) for too long.

The majority of his team selections seem necessary though: (Given, Dunne, St Legder, O'Shea, Duff, McGeady, Keane. If you allow for the limited role they are given then I even go as far as to say Whelan and Andrews were the most viable pre-McCarthy options over the last four years).

We probably won't square this circle but looking at players who could have been brought in earlier, there seems to be a good case for not bringing them in at the time.

Hoolahan (I think we all agree would be wasted in a 4-4-2)
Pilkington (question marks about his allegiance at the time?)
McClean (we;d already qualified and it makes more sense now given Hunt has dropped a division and Duff might retire).
McCarthy (age and issues over his allegiance dogged him for a while. 21 now but at the starr of the last qualfying campaign?)
Ireland (Okay, Trap doesn't have to defend himself here in my opinion).


Coleman and Foley are two players I have to admit I would have liked to see more gametime but even then it has to be said Coleman never plays RB for Everton and Duff/McGeady was already working well.

clubberlang12

As you said, i don't think we will square this circle and have different opinions on it, but i respect yours. With respect the Whelan/Andrews partnership, Andrews had just been bought by Blackburn and Whelan had just secured Premier League promotion when they were called up. I don't think this would have been lost on any other manager at the time. Both fitted Traps system of play and at the time looked the most likely midfield players for that system. Had Hoolahan being around then i don't think he would have made the starting 11 either, much like Reid. But the fact he couldn't make the squad pre Euro's shows the rigidity of Traps system. The fact that Whelan and Andrews have retained that partnership despite poor performances and the development of players such as Gibson and McCarthy i think reinforces Trap's unwillingness for change.

As you mentioned, the core of the team existed pre-Trap and many of the other roles have being the same since day 1. I was always in fear that we would be going into a WCQ campaign with an ageing team, that may have been reduced by retirements, and the fringe players that would be expected to step up not having the essential experience or game time. I would have liked to have seen the likes of Coleman and McCarthy going into these with double figure caps to their names. What we have instead, is Paul Green going in with more than both of their caps combined.