Croke Park Agreement beyond 2014

Rabidlamb

Many regard this FF death twitch lifebuoy as a noose upon the state while other see it as a major tool in PS reform.
If nothing else it's provided harmony during dark times.

A few questions if I may.
What month in 2014 does the CPA lapse ?.
Have the unions already begun discussions on it's replacement ?.
What shape would you like to see the new agreement take ?.
Is a new agreement actually needed ?.

femur61

You've started a very contntious issue, can see the thread being closed. Just heard on radio1 that we borrow 55million/day to fund public services so we do need an alternative - wage cuts - not cuts in services.

FANTAPANTS

wage cuts!!!!! If the ordinary PDF person takes another cut its dole time. Id say that 40/50% of us are already on FAMILY INCOME SUPPORT if we take any more hits i dont know what will happen :mad:

D1stant

Rabidlamb wrote: »

.
What shape would you like to see the new agreement take ?.

Oh perhaps something along the guidlines the rest of society operate under

- perform or get out
- accept market conditions
- accept risk in pensions
- say goodbye to automatic increments

- have the ability to advance much faster than is normal in PS if the performance warrants it

ParkRunner

As far as I know unions will start discussing their plans for post Croke Park in September. While the agreement has been heavily criticised some savings & reforms
,including two pay cuts, have been achieved & there has been industrial peace.

The public service will need a combination of new entrants and promotions to fill the many gaps that are starting to emerge as a result of the thousands of early retirements and ever increasing complex demands which are placed on the public service.

In the meantime i would like to see the agreement used to its full extent in terms of redeployment and performance management to make sure resources are used as best as possible.

I expect it will be some time before the exchequer deficit is closed so pay rises to match inflation is probably the most realistic way forward. As many civil/public servants now qualify for FIS any pay cuts would have minimal impact, especially with the raft of compulsory deductions at source.

I anticipate many will disagree with me but I expect that the public service will not be cut a whole lot further as long as there are politicians making economic decisions.

Sleepy

The first thing I'd like to see is the application of the new pay scales to existing workers. We're not about to get pay for performance/contribution across the PS so I'd like to see the ministers responsible turn on those who've screwed their junior colleagues.

A teacher who's been in service since the 80/90's is not automatically of such higher quality than a new entrant that they deserve a more generous salary scale on top of their higher position on that scale.

Stuff like this makes an utter farce of collectivised bargaining which is a flawed enough practice in the first instance.

Tea drinker

FANTAPANTS wrote: »

wage cuts!!!!! If the ordinary PDF person takes another cut its dole time. Id say that 40/50% of us are already on FAMILY INCOME SUPPORT if we take any more hits i dont know what will happen :mad:

Not knowing your particulr situation but isn't there many alternatives to hitting low income earners as you imply you are?
There are 100's of pseudo quango's with a multitude of the usual suspects floating between them in exceedingly well paid positions in these groups? I wonder how come I haven't held several of directorships but they seem to be given to people with no regard for experience. Where do I put my name down?
A quick google found this, serious diggin needed on many of these, and on adding to the list:
http://quangos-ireland.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Irish_Quangos


After that there are a lot of your colleagues quite well heeled, aren't there? So the only way you will get my support is if ye start shopping the quangoes and push for salary reform. My mood is such that I will go without public services rather than pay more for less. Early retirements for high earners ... on huge pensions is not an increase in efficiency. It means lower earners such as yourself get hit with more work.
We are truly madly deeply fvcked and externally it's getting worse.
If you guys do the heavy lifting we'll back you. If not the reform will come through collapse.

sarumite

EF wrote: »

The public service will need a combination of new entrants and promotions to fill the many gaps that are starting to emerge as a result of the thousands of early retirements and ever increasing complex demands which are placed on the public service.

In the meantime i would like to see the agreement used to its full extent in terms of redeployment and performance management to make sure resources are used as best as possible.

I expect it will be some time before the exchequer deficit is closed so pay rises to match inflation is probably the most realistic way forward. As many civil/public servants now qualify for FIS any pay cuts would have minimal impact, especially with the raft of compulsory deductions at source.

I anticipate many will disagree with me but I expect that the public service will not be cut a whole lot further as long as there are politicians making economic decisions.

I would say the emboldened parts are going to be pretty much the arguments made by the unions in any future negotiations on a CPA-2. Although considering the pay cuts were not actually part of the CPA and the biggest savings came from early retirement, I am not sure how new entrants and promotions would work in terms of savings.

galway2007

D1stant wrote: »

Oh perhaps something along the guidlines the rest of society operate under

- perform or get out
- accept market conditions
- accept risk in pensions
- say goodbye to automatic increments

- have the ability to advance much faster than is normal in PS if the performance warrants it

God are you still living in a fools world
Labour are in government and both party will be facing 2014 local election
Now can you see any politician changing the croke park deal???
They will come up with some more so called reform but they will not risk strikes etc.
Where is Leo now???

galway2007

Sleepy wrote: »

The first thing I'd like to see is the application of the new pay scales to existing workers. We're not about to get pay for performance/contribution across the PS so I'd like to see the ministers responsible turn on those who've screwed their junior colleagues.

A teacher who's been in service since the 80/90's is not automatically of such higher quality than a new entrant that they deserve a more generous salary scale on top of their higher position on that scale.

Stuff like this makes an utter farce of collectivised bargaining which is a flawed enough practice in the first instance.

What I want to see is a reverse ofbenchmarking 1 and 2

So I would suggest that they would first ofall reverse the pay cut and at same time reverse benchmarking

Benchmarking was managers awarding managersmassive wage increases

Benchmarking1

Principal Officer 11.7%

Assistant principle officer 13.8%

Clerical officer (lowest paid) 8.5%

Lab technician 3%

Nurse manager 3 15%

Nurse 8%

Benchmarking2

Principle office 1.1% (none to any othergrade)

Executive officer local authority 5%

Nurse manager 3 6.8% (none to you frontline nurse)

Nurse 0%

n97 mini

What Leo Varadkar said:
Provision for pay cuts
Provision for involuntary redundancy

Head The Wall

galway2007 wrote: »

What I want to see is a reverse ofbenchmarking 1 and 2

So I would suggest that they would first ofall reverse the pay cut and at same time reverse benchmarking

Benchmarking was managers awarding managersmassive wage increases

Benchmarking1

Principal Officer 11.7%

Assistant principle officer 13.8%

Clerical officer (lowest paid) 8.5%

Lab technician 3%

Nurse manager 3 15%

Nurse 8%

Benchmarking2

Principle office 1.1% (none to any othergrade)

Executive officer local authority 5%

Nurse manager 3 6.8% (none to you frontline nurse)

Nurse 0%

Those at the top have had the biggest paycuts while those at the bottom get paid way above market value for what they do. Based on the ESRI report it's at the bottom we should start

ESRI - The Public-Private Sector Pay Gap in Ireland: What Lies Beneath?

Brussels Sprout

Sleepy wrote: »

The first thing I'd like to see is the application of the new pay scales to existing workers. We're not about to get pay for performance/contribution across the PS so I'd like to see the ministers responsible turn on those who've screwed their junior colleagues.

A teacher who's been in service since the 80/90's is not automatically of such higher quality than a new entrant that they deserve a more generous salary scale on top of their higher position on that scale.

Stuff like this makes an utter farce of collectivised bargaining which is a flawed enough practice in the first instance.

This will never happen for the simple reason that all of the union leaders are drawn from the more senior workers. Screw the newbies, I'm alright Jack.

Farmer Pudsey

Head The Wall wrote: »

Those at the top have had the biggest paycuts while those at the bottom get paid way above market value for what they do. Based on the ESRI report it's at the bottom we should start

ESRI - The Public-Private Sector Pay Gap in Ireland: What Lies Beneath?

I would take no notice of the ERSI all you have to do is see the difference in pay between judges, consultants and top CS and there counterparts in Germany, France etc.

Head The Wall

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I would take no notice of the ERSI all you have to do is see the difference in pay between judges, consultants and top CS and there counterparts in Germany, France etc.

Whats your reason for ignoring that report? is it a case of cut everyone but me or someone close to me.

Anyone that's overpaid should be looked at, judges and top PS included. Cutting the few at the top who have had the largest cuts so far will only save so much, so yes we should cut them and all others who are overpaid.

femur61

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I would take no notice of the ERSI all you have to do is see the difference in pay between judges, consultants and top CS and there counterparts in Germany, France etc.

I have been saying this point for so long. How can we borrow 55 million a day - why are we still been lent this money?

RobbieTheRobber

femur61 wrote: »

I have been saying this point for so long. How can we borrow 55 million a day - why are we still been lent this money?

Can you provide some additional information about this borrowing €55 million please. The I heard it on the radio isnt the best source and I would like to see for myself how this figure is reached.

galway2007

Head The Wall wrote: »

Those at the top have had the biggest paycuts while those at the bottom get paid way above market value for what they do. Based on the ESRI report it's at the bottom we should start

ESRI - The Public-Private Sector Pay Gap in Ireland: What Lies Beneath?

I am proposing giving them back the pay cut first

Read the report and take a look at % increase

We have a crap public service and those running it rewarded themselves inbenchmarking one and two. Managers awarding managers pay increases.

Reverse benchmarking now and also remove about 50% of the managers as thereis no need for them.

Management / senior positions were created for no reason and once theybecame a manager they were over paid and sit behind desks.

RobbieTheRobber

galway2007 wrote: »

I am proposing giving them back the pay cut first

Read the report and take a look at % increase

We have a crap public service and those running it rewarded themselves inbenchmarking one and two. Managers awarding managers pay increases.

Reverse benchmarking now and also remove about 50% of the managers as thereis no need for them.

Management / senior positions were created for no reason and once theybecame a manager they were over paid and sit behind desks.

When you have no facts just generalise.

Brussels Sprout

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you provide some additional information about this borrowing €55 million please. The I heard it on the radio isnt the best source and I would like to see for myself how this figure is reached.

I think this figure is thrown around a lot as the budget deficit was 20 billion last year and 20 billion divided by 365 amounts to 55 million a day (which is borrowed from the Bailout fund). A more realistic figure would be 33 million a day since 8 billion of that deficit was bank-related. Also this 33 million a day is used to fund everything from social welfare to capital spending as well as public sector wages. Overpaid workers in the public sector are just part of the problem along with overly generous welfare and a low tax take.

deise blue

When it comes to negotiating terms & conditions the outcome is generally hugely influenced by the quality of the cards held by the negotiating parties.

PS employees via their unions would appear to have the better hand currently.

1. A hugely unionised workforce
2. The fact that the question of Public Sector reform has been handed to the Labour Party.
3. The fact that all reports to date have shown that the CPA is delivering , reports that the Government have been happy to accept.
4. The fact that Mr. Varadkar has effectively been gagged.

It would appear that the Government are the most anxious of the 2 parties to raise the question of a CPA 2 - perhaps the Unions are more than happy to keep their powder dry until closer to the end of the current agreement ?

sarumite

deise blue wrote: »

When it comes to negotiating terms & conditions the outcome is generally hugely influenced by the quality of the cards held by the negotiating parties.

PS employees via their unions would appear to have the better hand currently.

1. A hugely unionised workforce
2. The fact that the question of Public Sector reform has been handed to the Labour Party.
3. The fact that all reports to date have shown that the CPA is delivering , reports that the Government have been happy to accept.
4. The fact that Mr. Varadkar has effectively been gagged.

It would appear that the Government are the most anxious of the 2 parties to raise the question of a CPA 2 - perhaps the Unions are more than happy to keep their powder dry until closer to the end of the current agreement ?

PS employees always have the better hand (and not just currently). Their employer is the state, i.e. the government which is made up of elected politicians who are more concerned with getting re-elected. The fact that the government chose the economically unwise decision of gutting capital expenditure instead of the politically difficult decision of genuine reform of the PS or SW shows where there priorities lie imo.

Farmer Pudsey

deise blue wrote: »

1. A hugely unionised workforce
2. The fact that the question of Public Sector reform has been handed to the Labour Party.
3. The fact that all reports to date have shown that the CPA is delivering , reports that the Government have been happy to accept.
4. The fact that Mr. Varadkar has effectively been gagged.
QUOTE]

It is veyr easy to blame the labour party however the CPA was put in place by FF. Look at present FG want to prevent the any wealth means testing of college grants as it effects there constituenty.

Accross europe all CS staff are heavily unionised, and in germany both PS workers and those in the private sector are all in Unions I believe. The IFA, IBEC and the group represint SME's are also unions. And a lot of the top officials in unions were of a FF background.

FG accept the CPA reports as well I did not see FG insist on taking Social Welfare and giving Joan Bruton finance.
If Mr Vradaker has an issue he should speak out like John Mcguniness did

Head The Wall wrote: »

Whats your reason for ignoring that report? is it a case of cut everyone but me or someone close to me.

Anyone that's overpaid should be looked at, judges and top PS included. Cutting the few at the top who have had the largest cuts so far will only save so much, so yes we should cut them and all others who are overpaid.

The reason I would ignore it is in your orginal post you stated that those at the top took the biggest pay cuts and those at the bottom got payed above market value and you used the ERSI report to back it up.

The impression I got was that you believed that senior CS are not over paid because they took larger pay cuts. The reality is that they took pay cuts of less than 5% more in real terms than lower paid staff when tax was taken into account and also I believe that they kept there bonus scheme.

Lower CS such as clerical officers and assistant CO got very little under bench marking I believe, It was Senior CS anf Guards and teachers that were the benficerys. Maybe not the guards as they got a sweetheart deal from FF in the early noughties after the blue Flu.

Also it is obsene to see the level of pensions that Senior CS's/politicains/Oqango executive's retire on the max pension that any PS should get should be 50K as if you are earning above 100K you should finance it your self

Geuze

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Can you provide some additional information about this borrowing €55 million please. The I heard it on the radio isnt the best source and I would like to see for myself how this figure is reached.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/meb%202012/August2012.pdf

See page 13 of this DoF monthly economic bulletin.

The forecast 2012 Gen Govt deficit is 13,117m.

That's 36m per day of a deficit in the public finances.

RobbieTheRobber

Geuze wrote: »

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/meb%202012/August2012.pdf

See page 13 of this DoF monthly economic bulletin.

The forecast 2012 Gen Govt deficit is 13,117m.

That's 36m per day of a deficit in the public finances.

So its not as the poster stated €55 million a day borrowed to fund public services.
Its €36m a day to fund the entire state, and there are many more issues related to that than just public sector pay.

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So its not as the poster stated €55 million a day borrowed to fund public services.
Its €36m a day to fund the entire state, and there are many more issues related to that than just public sector pay.

The 55 million included bank debt I believe. Also, the poster did imply that it was to fund the entire state, and not just public sector pay.

RobbieTheRobber

sarumite wrote: »

The 55 million included bank debt I believe. Also, the poster did imply that it was to fund the entire state, and not just public sector pay.

Perhaps when they are referring to public services and by that meaning public service pay, welfare, interest on the bank loans and other costs of state.
I dont think thats how I would use the term "public services" though especially not in a thread about the CPA.

femur61 wrote: »

You've started a very contntious issue, can see the thread being closed. Just heard on radio1 that we borrow 55million/day to fund public services so we do need an alternative - wage cuts - not cuts in services.

Sleepy

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

This will never happen for the simple reason that all of the union leaders are drawn from the more senior workers. Screw the newbies, I'm alright Jack.

Which is why, were I Ruari Quinn, I wouldn't include the unions in the conversation. I'd simply inform the teachers and announce it to the press.

The teachers unions actions in this are indefensible, they'd get next-to-no support from the public and should they strike, there's plenty of qualified teachers who would be only too happy to work at the new rates. A good case in point would be Evelyn O' Connor who was awarded the Secondary School Teacher of the Year this year link.

To be fair, I'd be more tactical about it than that: I'd slightly increase the rates for the new teachers and then move all the teachers onto that scale. Divide and conquer.

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Perhaps when they are referring to public services and by that meaning public service pay, welfare, interest on the bank loans and other costs of state.
I dont think thats how I would use the term "public services" though especially not in a thread about the CPA.

Fair enough. Outside of bank debt (which is why we are now referring to the corrected €36 million), it could be argued everything from SW to PS pay etc is a 'public service'. That was how I read it anyway. On boards.ie I tend to find people are far more specific and will state "PS pay" as opposed to "public services" when specifically referring to PS pay.

galway2007

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

When you have no facts just generalise.

Go read the benchmarking reports and you might be able to understand the facts

Jogathon

Well, I know that Ireland is in dire straits, but teachers, gardaí and nurses etc are not on fantastic money.

I am a teacher, have a huge mortgage (bought in 2006), have had my take-home pay cut dramatically with two paycuts and the pension levy (the pension levy alone means that I'm down €250 every month) and I seriously struggle to make ends meet. Any more cuts and I'll have to sell my house cos I won't be able to afford the mortgage.

RobbieTheRobber

sarumite wrote: »

Fair enough. Outside of bank debt (which is why we are now referring to the corrected €36 million), it could be argued everything from SW to PS pay etc is a 'public service'. That was how I read it anyway. On boards.ie I tend to find people are far more specific and will state "PS pay" as opposed to "public services" when specifically referring to PS pay.

Im really not trying to be smart or predantic but I would have taken this as the meaning of public service within this context.
1. Employment within a governmental system, especially within the civil service.
As the other two definitions dont really fit what we are talking about.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/public+service

RobbieTheRobber

galway2007 wrote: »

Go read the benchmarking reports and you might be able to understand the facts

This is the sort of argument that always makes me leave this forum. :rolleyes:

You didnt present one fact.
You made a generalisation about a body of workers near 300,000.
You have presented no evidence to say you know the workings of the entire public service, so when you say sack 50% of managers they do nothing.
I have to wonder how you know this!

Geuze

Jogathon wrote: »

I am a teacher, have a huge mortgage (bought in 2006), have had my take-home pay cut dramatically with two paycuts and the pension levy (the pension levy alone means that I'm down €250 every month) and I seriously struggle to make ends meet.

Just to be clear, there was one cut to gross pay, and the pension levy.

So two pay cuts in the PS in total.

Geuze

While the deficit will be 36m per day in 2012 according to that DoF monthly bulletin, it was more last year.

So the 55m may be correct for 2011..............

2011 Gen Govt deficit was 20bn, so 55m per day, yes, correct.

RobbieTheRobber

Geuze wrote: »

While the deficit will be 36m per day in 2012 according to that DoF monthly bulletin, it was more last year.

So the 55m may be correct for 2011..............

2011 Gen Govt deficit was 20bn, so 55m per day, yes, correct.

That is down to more than just the CPA, and while continued government borrowing will have implications in any new deal with the unions I think this talk of borrowing €55m a day is more suited to a general discussion of public finances.

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Im really not trying to be smart or predantic but I would have taken this as the meaning of public service within this context.
1. Employment within a governmental system, especially within the civil service.
As the other two definitions dont really fit what we are talking about.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/public+service

And yet when I look for the definition of public services it says it is "a service that is performed for the benefit of the public or its institutions."

https://www.google.com/search?q=dedfine+public+services#hl=en&pwst=1&sa=X&ei=r1YuUIrYOcLd4QTaiYGIAg&ved=0CGEQvwUoAQ&q=define+public+services&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=9f3de7f9ee57ed80&biw=1082&bih=663

Geuze

Just for clarity:

The banking crisis has cost the State 62.8bn, some of which was borrowed (I estimate about 40-45bn).

We did acquire some assets as part of the crisis (mainly banks).

Our gross Gen Govt public debt is as follows:

End-2010 = 148.3bn
End-2011 = 169.3bn

Geuze

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That is down to more than just the CPA, and while continued government borrowing will have implications in any new deal with the unions I think this talk of borrowing €55m a day is more suited to a general discussion of public finances.

Yes, of course, the borrowing was and is due to many reasons.

All connected to Govt Revenue < Govt expenditures.

Direct taxes on many people too low.
DSP exp too high
PS pensions too generous
Huge costs of banking crisis.

Godge

If this was a genuine debate about the arrangements to follow Croke Park it would cover the following options:

(1) A further pay freeze
(2) Pensions reform for existing public servants
(3) Further significant changes in working arrangements to include allowances, working day etc.
(4) A small reversal of the pension levy/pay cuts.

Those are the type of things and the options that will realistically be on the table (unless something dramatic such as the break-up of the euro occurs). obviously (4) doesn't come into play until the economy picks up but with an inflation rate of 2%, the 10% cut for new entrants, the cuts in numbers, the cost of public service pay as a % of GDP will naturally decrease over the next few years. The talk of pay cuts, sacking 50% of the managers, reversing benchmarking and no increments are the fantastic delusions of those who don't understand the real world.

With even Tesco increasing the pay of its Irish staff (and they even have incremental scales! the horror of it!!!)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0630/1224319037274.html

isn't time we looked to tax increases - household charges, property taxes etc - so that everyone is paying their fair share.

Sleepy

Most taxes are already approaching the point of diminishing returns imo. Increase Income tax much further and you'll force more people onto welfare, risk a "brain drain" problem (which I'm already seeing early signs of amongst friends and here on boards.ie) and disincentivise employment during a period of high unemployment.

A property tax is something I'm in favour of due to it's stability as a revenue source for government. Ramping up taxes to pay for welfare and a public service we can't afford however, I'm against.

All evidence points to many of our public sector workers being overpaid for the work they do (realistic comparisons to similar roles in private sector, comparisons to salaries of those performing the roles in other countries). I'm not by any means saying *all* PS workers are over-paid but an awful lot of them are: many seem to think they're entitled to the same take-home pay as someone with a similar job title in the private sector that doesn't enjoy their family friendly working hours, job stability, pension and other perks.

That's simply delusion imo. Mary PAYE getting 45k a year for an administrative role where she works 9 to 6 with a half hour lunch, gets 20 days annual leave with no employer pension contributions or sick-pay doesn't mean that Joe Council Worker should be paid 45k for his "similar" administrative role that's a 9 - 5:30 with an hour for lunch and two 15 minute tea breaks, no chance of has 22 days annual leave with pension and sick pay. I won't even get into the "term-timers" or job sharers who think they're worth that kind of money :rolleyes:

sarumite

Some of the options mentioned are unlikely to happen. We are unlikely to see a pay freeze in the PS now or in the future and anyway it would be unfair to newer recruits who would miss out on incremental payrises. With pay in SME's remaining flat (http://www.businesswings.co.uk/articles/Irish-SME-pay-rates-stagnating), increasing PS pay (whether it is called a pay rise or reversal of the pay cut) would seem unjustified and unnecessary.

If we wanted a genuine discussion, then why we are not talking about Benchmarking (including productivity) in the PS is beyond me. It would appear to be a far more ideal solution. It avoids the moral quagmire of the CPA and has already been approved by the unions and the previous government.

creedp

Sleepy wrote: »

That's simply delusion imo. Mary PAYE getting 45k a year for an administrative role where she works 9 to 6 with a half hour lunch, gets 20 days annual leave with no employer pension contributions or sick-pay doesn't mean that Joe Council Worker should be paid 45k for his "similar" administrative role that's a 9 - 5:30 with an hour for lunch and two 15 minute tea breaks, no chance of has 22 days annual leave with pension and sick pay. I won't even get into the "term-timers" or job sharers who think they're worth that kind of money :rolleyes:

So no employer pension contribution, no sick leave, 1/2 hour lunchtime and the legal min of 20 days leave is the norm in all private sector jobs now is it. Is funny how all 300k plus PS workers are treated as one homogonous group of high paid, gold plated pensions, fantastic leave and with every kind of fantastic terms and conditions one could imagine while all private sector workers are poorly paid with no benefits for the purposes of comparison .. its all very simple out there isn't?

creedp

sarumite wrote: »

Some of the options mentioned are unlikely to happen. We are unlikely to see a pay freeze in the PS now or in the future and anyway it would be unfair to newer recruits who would miss out on incremental payrises. With pay in SME's remaining flat (http://www.businesswings.co.uk/articles/Irish-SME-pay-rates-stagnating), increasing PS pay (whether it is called a pay rise or reversal of the pay cut) would seem unjustified and unnecessary.

If we wanted a genuine discussion, then why we are not talking about Benchmarking (including productivity) in the PS is beyond me. It would appear to be a far more ideal solution. It avoids the moral quagmire of the CPA and has already been approved by the unions and the previous government.

Yes there will be pay freezes and some pay cuts but also as per link

"While there is little or no wage growth in the Irish economy, moving forward it is imperative that if any pay increases are implemented that they’re clearly linked to productivity gains, if competitiveness is to be restored.......Although basic pay was down overall by 0.25%, 13% of those polled said they have raised pay by 2.5% in the most recent quarter. A fifth of these expect to increase pay by 3% next year.



So even though there will be little pay increases overall, 20% of SME's will actually implement a 3% pay increase in 2013. That's good news isn't or maybe not in tis country? Its what realy annoys me about the way things are reported in this country .. the headline will always be that there are no pay increases only pay cuts .. I mean in some cases it will be up to 50% pay cuts! Why not report facts rather than sweping generalisations.

Godge

sarumite wrote: »

Some of the options mentioned are unlikely to happen. We are unlikely to see a pay freeze in the PS now or in the future and anyway it would be unfair to newer recruits who would miss out on incremental payrises. With pay in SME's remaining flat (http://www.businesswings.co.uk/articles/Irish-SME-pay-rates-stagnating), increasing PS pay (whether it is called a pay rise or reversal of the pay cut) would seem unjustified and unnecessary.

If we wanted a genuine discussion, then why we are not talking about Benchmarking (including productivity) in the PS is beyond me. It would appear to be a far more ideal solution. It avoids the moral quagmire of the CPA and has already been approved by the unions and the previous government.

Eh, in case you missed it, there is a pay-freeze in the public sector. A continuation of the current pay-freeze is an option after Croke Park. That is what I was referring to as a realistic option.

If you want to argue about what is and isn't a pay-freeze, start another thread.

If you want to argue about whether the public sector with thousands of employees is like an SME or a large company, start another thread.

Godge

Sleepy wrote: »

Most taxes are already approaching the point of diminishing returns imo. Increase Income tax much further and you'll force more people onto welfare, risk a "brain drain" problem (which I'm already seeing early signs of amongst friends and here on boards.ie) and disincentivise employment during a period of high unemployment.

A property tax is something I'm in favour of due to it's stability as a revenue source for government. Ramping up taxes to pay for welfare and a public service we can't afford however, I'm against.

For those earning less than €40,000 we have one of the most generous income tax regimes in the developed world thanks to Charlie McCreevy.

Sleepy wrote: »

All evidence points to many of our public sector workers being overpaid for the work they do (realistic comparisons to similar roles in private sector, comparisons to salaries of those performing the roles in other countries). I'm not by any means saying *all* PS workers are over-paid but an awful lot of them are: many seem to think they're entitled to the same take-home pay as someone with a similar job title in the private sector that doesn't enjoy their family friendly working hours, job stability, pension and other perks.

That's simply delusion imo. Mary PAYE getting 45k a year for an administrative role where she works 9 to 6 with a half hour lunch, gets 20 days annual leave with no employer pension contributions or sick-pay doesn't mean that Joe Council Worker should be paid 45k for his "similar" administrative role that's a 9 - 5:30 with an hour for lunch and two 15 minute tea breaks, no chance of has 22 days annual leave with pension and sick pay. I won't even get into the "term-timers" or job sharers who think they're worth that kind of money :rolleyes:

Any evidence about how well-paid our public sector workers are pre-dates the pension levy and pay-cuts. With Tesco, Dunnes, insurance companies and other companies with more than 100 employees giving pay rises this year, the gap is also closing from the other side.

I have no doubt that some public sector workers are still overpaid, but there are also some who are underpaid or correctly paid. Nobody knows which because there is no recent credible evidence looking at the type of jobs and the type of persons required.

For example, a civil servant working in social welfare or revenue is required to be impartial in their dealings with the public, this is not required in the private sector - a salesman can treat every customer differently looking to get the best deal for his bonus and for his company. A security man can chase an intruder off the premises but doesn't have to worry what happens next - a garda does. I could give millions of examples of these subtle differences to show jobs are not the same.

Sleepy

Employer pension contributions [i[are[/i] very rare in the (non formerly public company) private sector in my experience.

Did you miss where I wrote:

m not by any means saying *all* PS workers are over-paid

The comparison I was making in my post would be an example of our office administrator in the company I work in (a software based SME) and some of the clients I've worked with in Local Authorities around the country. Both are nominally administrators but the positions couldn't be more different in reality.

Collective bargaining prevents PS workers from being paid correctly. Unfortunately for the better workers in any particular grade, they have to be paid less than they're worth because the poorer workers at the same point on the the scale aren't worth what they are.

sarumite

Godge wrote: »

Eh, in case you missed it, there is a pay-freeze in the public sector. A continuation of the current pay-freeze is an option after Croke Park. That is what I was referring to as a realistic option.


If you want to argue about what is and isn't a pay-freeze, start another thread.
No thanks, not necessary

If you want to argue about whether the public sector with thousands of employees is like an SME or a large company, start another thread.

You're not a mod, so stop please back-seat modding. If you don't want to reply to my post, don't reply. If a mod says I cannot post about how there are still ongoing incremental payrises in the PS or post an article that show how SME's are not giving pay rises in this thread then I will gladly remove it.

Sleepy

Godge wrote: »

Any evidence about how well-paid our public sector workers are pre-dates the pension levy and pay-cuts. With Tesco, Dunnes, insurance companies and other companies with more than 100 employees giving pay rises this year, the gap is also closing from the other side.

I have no doubt that some public sector workers are still overpaid, but there are also some who are underpaid or correctly paid. Nobody knows which because there is no recent credible evidence looking at the type of jobs and the type of persons required.

For example, a civil servant working in social welfare or revenue is required to be impartial in their dealings with the public, this is not required in the private sector - a salesman can treat every customer differently looking to get the best deal for his bonus and for his company. A security man can chase an intruder off the premises but doesn't have to worry what happens next - a garda does. I could give millions of examples of these subtle differences to show jobs are not the same.

Yes, but raises are only being given by profitable businesses. Any company that's in trouble is reducing hours, making redundancies and/or cutting salaries and that's been the case for the past 4 years now.

The state is haemoraging money. There simply isn't the tax base to support the current level of spending and since we can't realistically increase that much further without damaging the potential for the economic growth we so badly need in order to create employment, we have to focus on cuts. Since the vast majority of government spending goes on welfare and wages, cutting those needs to form the foundation of any sensible strategy to get rid of the deficit.

Godge

Sleepy wrote: »

Yes, but raises are only being given by profitable businesses. Any company that's in trouble is reducing hours, making redundancies and/or cutting salaries and that's been the case for the past 4 years now.

The state is haemoraging money. There simply isn't the tax base to support the current level of spending and since we can't realistically increase that much further without damaging the potential for the economic growth we so badly need in order to create employment, we have to focus on cuts. Since the vast majority of government spending goes on welfare and wages, cutting those needs to form the foundation of any sensible strategy to get rid of the deficit.

Yes, and a business can look at other areas, not just at pay, in addressing profit issues. Grow revenue, change suppliers etc.

In the same way, government can look at other options - cutting child benefit, cutting social welfare, raising existing taxes, introducing new taxes.

Godge

sarumite wrote: »

You're not a mod, so stop please back-seat modding. If you don't want to reply to my post, don't reply. If a mod says I cannot post about how there are still ongoing incremental payrises in the PS or post an article that show how SME's are not giving pay rises in this thread then I will gladly remove it.

I only replied to your post to help you understand the real position.

There is a pay freeze in the public sector.

And the public sector is not some mom and pop SME.