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Croke Park Agreement beyond 2014
Comments
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Head The Wall wrote: »Here is a link to the UK where they also claim a higher number of third level qualifications in their PS, same as us here. Is anyone going to explain why there is a 7% difference there and 40% difference here other than the glaringly obvious fact that they are overpaid.
Are Irish PS more educated and experienced? I doubt it based on my own experiences
So in your experience, what percentage of the 300,000 workers would say you have dealt with?0 -
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MOD NOTE:
Can we get less of the "we pay your wages, pal" guff? This kind of posting doesn't really add to the discussion and only gets people's backs up.
In a somewhat related note, this is one of the nastiest threads I have had the misfortune to read through in this forum. If you can't post without sneering at other people, then you should re-think your 'contributions' here.0 -
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Retirement age is 66 and being increased to 68 over time.
Members of the garda can retire at 50 on full pension and indeed are forced to retire at 60 weather they want to or not.
As a percentage of the public service, what do the Gardai make up?
Each and every public servant has the exact same terms and conditions of employment, right?0 -
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Retirement age is 66 and being increased to 68 over time.
Members of the garda can retire at 50 on full pension and indeed are forced to retire at 60 weather they want to or not.
Ah yes An Garda Siochana the average public sector workers!
Although citing the Garda is useful as a method of pointing out how ridiculous this vague notion of an average PS worker is.0 -
Just refuting a couple of facts stated by another poster who was saying that I was 'deluded'.
You are deluded. You stated it as fact that all public servants retire at 60 which, like a lot of stuff stated as fact about the public service on this forum, is completely misleading.
Public servants in general dont retire at 60 unless they fall into one of a couple of categories.
The Gardai make up approximately 4.5% of all numbers in the public service.0 -
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RobbieTheRobber wrote: »Ah yes An Garda Siochana the average public sector workers!
Although citing the Garda is useful as a method of pointing out how ridiculous this vague notion of an average PS worker is.
You describe the 'average' PS worker then...0 -
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You are deluded. You stated it as fact that all public servants retire at 60 which, like a lot of stuff stated as fact about the public service on this forum, is completely misleading.
Public servants in general dont retire at 60 unless they fall into one of a couple of categories.
The Gardai make up approximately 4.5% of all numbers in the public service.
I stated no such thing.
Perhaps you should read that post again.
I'll accept your apology when you give it.0 -
Dannyboy83 wrote: »That is certainly one valid point, but uproar might be a minor concern.
An accountant I know who deals with a lot of public sector clients has said despite the fact that many of his clients haven't had much in the way of direct pay decreases, their net income has been reduced in other ways due to indirect factors such as reduced overtime etc.
Not something I've ever seen reported in the mainstream media.
We always see reports of how high the average ps wage is, but not reports on how much it may have fallen for specific individuals.
Despite their high pay, a lot of these people are actually already struggling, due to their commitments. The benchmarking process was a complete screw up because their pay was benchmarked against a wildly inflated Irish private sector instead of comparable European public sectors while their mortgage commitments were based on unsustainable circumstances in post-pyramid Ireland.
Anyway, the interesting point he made, was that a 20% type pay cut is a financial impossibility where his public sector clients are concerned, unless some type of debt relief mechanism has been put in place by the government; the reason being that his public sector clients have either significantly higher mortgage repayments or several different properties to pay for, as the case may be.
So according to him, if cuts are to be enforced, then only pensions can face a 20% type reduction. (From my understanding of Roddy Molly and so on, the government cannot cut pensions in this manner).
If salaries are cut, then we will see the type of mortgage tsunami that has been predicted since the beginning.
Since the beginning of this crisis, people have been scratching their heads at the way lower paid public servants have been hit equally as higher paid public servants.
Personally I've often heard public servants comment that they'd be happy to take a pay cut if their mortgage commitments are also reduced.
The point to all my waffle is that a 20% salary cut probably isn't feasible, since either way, the taxpayer will pay the difference - be it through higher rates of pay or through mortgage defaults.
In this case, the politically easier option is also the socially less destructive option.
I hadn't factored in mortgage defaults but there is no doubt that a 20% cut in pay would not deliver as much savings as people think for the following reasons.
A 20% pay cut would come off the top of the earnings where people are paying the highest amount of tax and other deductions.
Therefore for every €100 saved, the government would lost €42 in income tax, €10 in pension levy, €5 in PRSI and €6.50 in superannuation contributions, meaning the net saving by cutting €100 would be €37.50. Out of that €37.50, the government would probably lose about another €5 in VAT and excise duty losses, leaving a net saving of €32.50 for every €100 cut in public service pay.
Public service pay in total has fallen to around €16 bn a year (excluding the lump sums paid last February as these will not feature should a cut be applied from 1 January next). A cut of 20% yields a notional saving of €3.2 bn, coincidentally just about what we need for next year. Unfortunately, for the cutters, that will only result in a net saving of €1.1 bn,
Probably severe industrial relations problems too. But you can all keep dreaming that there will be a pay cut to put manners on those lazy public servants.0 -
Seriously, how many times do ye have to be told, stop calling posts delusional or stupid, up the quality of debate or the thread will be closed and cards issued.
Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
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Retirement age is 66 and being increased to 68 over time.
Members of the garda can retire at 50 on full pension and indeed are forced to retire at 60 weather they want to or not.
And PS staff will not receive the Old age pension until 66 and 68 over time just like the rest of the poulation.
We have IPF in with us a few times and pushing us to take out AVC's as if and when we reach 65 years of age, we will have 3 years of no COAP.0 -
Retirement age is 66 and being increased to 68 over time.
Members of the garda can retire at 50 on full pension and indeed are forced to retire at 60 weather they want to or not.
I started this discussion off yesterday with a few facts about a few categories of public service workers. It has then descended into all sorts of misinformation.
Firstly, under Revenue rules, anyone can be paid a pension from the age of 50, you just have to retire and your pension scheme has to allow it. Exceptions are made for sportspeople to be paid from an earlier date.
Secondly, civil servants (and most public servants) recruited before 1995 are not entitled to the contributory old-age pension. Those recruited after 1995 are entitled to the COAP but their public service pension is reduced by this amount. Like everyone else, they do not qualify for the COAP until age 66, 67, 68 or whatever it is this year.
Thirdly, public servants recruited before 2004 must retire at 65 except for a few small categories such as gardai. Public servants recruited after 2004 do not have a mandatory retirement age unless it is in their contract. Those recruited once the new Public Service Pension Act is commenced will be obliged to retire at age 70.
Fourthly, it takes forty years to acquire a full pension in the public service (again except for the security services).
Therefore, as most public servants are recruited as graduates in their early to mid-20s, they are staying until their mid-60s before retiring.
The arrangements that see some people go earlier are mostly for reduced pensions. A few categories of them.
Firstly, there are those who were recruited at 17 - 20 who leave with a full pension at age 60. That number will decrease as the post-1995 generation feeds through and the gap of years from their small public service pension to getting the larger COAP increases.
Secondly, there are also special groups - Gardai, army, fire fighters who can get full pensions earlier but there are good reasons for that.
Thirdly, any public servant can retire at an earlier date but their pension is severely reduced by actuarial means and by having less years service. An ordinary civil servant taking this option at 55 would have less than the COAP.
Fourthly, there are a very small number in top jobs with really good deals.
The main point I would make is that the vast majority of public servants fall into the first set of categories - they work until close to 65 and then retire with their pension. The second set include a couple of groups with arguably good reasons for being able to retire early and a couple who don't deserve it. Painting all public servants as being able to go at 55 or 60 with a full pension is painting a very flawed inaccurate picture of the reality.
Last point is that pensions is a very complicated area. The above only touches on a few of the issues involved in public sector pensions. I am not enough of an expert to say it is completely 100% accurate but I do know enough to know that the debate over the last few pages is hugely uninformed and lacking in knowledge of the details.0 -
Retirement age is 66 and being increased to 68 over time.
Members of the garda can retire at 50 on full pension and indeed are forced to retire at 60 weather they want to or not.
State pensions ( OAP ) are paid to people who attain the age of 66 , increasing to 68 as you say.
This has got nothing to do with occupational pensions , the pension retirement date being written into contracts of employment - in my last place of employment the compulsory retirement age was 65 - you could retire on a full pension after 45 years service or a pro rata pension after 40 years.
Most people joined from school & typically retired after 40 years at age 58 'ish0 -
Cleaners, hospital porters, security/watchmen would all be minimum wage jobs in the private sector.
A large number of public sector employers have contracted out cleaning and other services. I have been involved with a number of schools and they have all contracted out cleaning services, security services and low-level maintenance.
As a result the school has lots of highly-qualified highly-paid professional teachers. As the low-paid jobs have been contracted out to the private sector, there is an obvious reason in that comparison for higher public service pay rates. In fact, given the greater trends in outsourcing of such activity right across the public service, I would expect one of the statistical results to be a widening of the gap between public service pay and private sector pay because of the changing mix of employees in the public service i.e. less of the low-paid type work that you quote.0 -
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I started this discussion off yesterday with a few facts about a few categories of public service workers. It has then descended into all sorts of misinformation.
Firstly, under Revenue rules, anyone can be paid a pension from the age of 50, you just have to retire and your pension scheme has to allow it. Exceptions are made for sportspeople to be paid from an earlier date.
Secondly, civil servants (and most public servants) recruited before 1995 are not entitled to the contributory old-age pension. Those recruited after 1995 are entitled to the COAP but their public service pension is reduced by this amount. Like everyone else, they do not qualify for the COAP until age 66, 67, 68 or whatever it is this year.
Thirdly, public servants recruited before 2004 must retire at 65 except for a few small categories such as gardai. Public servants recruited after 2004 do not have a mandatory retirement age unless it is in their contract. Those recruited once the new Public Service Pension Act is commenced will be obliged to retire at age 70.
Fourthly, it takes forty years to acquire a full pension in the public service (again except for the security services).
Therefore, as most public servants are recruited as graduates in their early to mid-20s, they are staying until their mid-60s before retiring.
The arrangements that see some people go earlier are mostly for reduced pensions. A few categories of them.
Firstly, there are those who were recruited at 17 - 20 who leave with a full pension at age 60. That number will decrease as the post-1995 generation feeds through and the gap of years from their small public service pension to getting the larger COAP increases.
Secondly, there are also special groups - Gardai, army, fire fighters who can get full pensions earlier but there are good reasons for that.
Thirdly, any public servant can retire at an earlier date but their pension is severely reduced by actuarial means and by having less years service. An ordinary civil servant taking this option at 55 would have less than the COAP.
Fourthly, there are a very small number in top jobs with really good deals.
The main point I would make is that the vast majority of public servants fall into the first set of categories - they work until close to 65 and then retire with their pension. The second set include a couple of groups with arguably good reasons for being able to retire early and a couple who don't deserve it. Painting all public servants as being able to go at 55 or 60 with a full pension is painting a very flawed inaccurate picture of the reality.
Last point is that pensions is a very complicated area. The above only touches on a few of the issues involved in public sector pensions. I am not enough of an expert to say it is completely 100% accurate but I do know enough to know that the debate over the last few pages is hugely uninformed and lacking in knowledge of the details.
Glad you've cleared that up.
Why are you quoting me there though.
My post you've quoted is true and factual.0 -
A large number of public sector employers have contracted out cleaning and other services. I have been involved with a number of schools and they have all contracted out cleaning services, security services and low-level maintenance.
As a result the school has lots of highly-qualified highly-paid professional teachers. As the low-paid jobs have been contracted out to the private sector, there is an obvious reason in that comparison for higher public service pay rates. In fact, given the greater trends in outsourcing of such activity right across the public service, I would expect one of the statistical results to be a widening of the gap between public service pay and private sector pay because of the changing mix of employees in the public service i.e. less of the low-paid type work that you quote.
There's a lot of schools who are using jobsbridge to fill any vacancies they may have around cleaning, security and school maintenance.0 -
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Glad you've cleared that up.
Why are you quoting me there though.
My post you've quoted is true and factual.
Probably because of the lack of facts in most of your previous posts, for example :Why don't the PS workers on here just admit how blessed they are to have a state job, are pretty much unsackable, have a very light workload, excellent pay and conditions, great holidays and a gold plated and index linked pension when they retire (at a much younger age than the rest of normal society) and stop crying about pay cuts and pension levy's?Count Dooku wrote: »PS staff, who already retired or will retire next 20 years never paid PRSI in full in order to get contributory pension
Wasnt their wages adjust to take account of this?0 -
Glad you've cleared that up.
Why are you quoting me there though.
My post you've quoted is true and factual.
Sorry, I wasn't implying your post wasn't true and factual.
Like others though, it only told part of the story and I was trying to show how difficult it is to generalise about pensions.0 -
Kallie Numerous Rayon wrote: »There's a lot of schools who are using jobsbridge to fill any vacancies they may have around cleaning, security and school maintenance.
Jobsbridge placements don't feature in the CSO statistics on average wage rates. If schools are using jobsbridge to fill low-paid vacancies, that is another reason why their average pay will remain high.0 -
Kallie Numerous Rayon wrote: »There's a lot of schools who are using jobsbridge to fill any vacancies they may have around cleaning, security and school maintenance.
Please provide evidence of this?0 -
RobbieTheRobber wrote: »Please provide evidence of this?
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And I just picked those at random...have a look yourself on the jobsbridge website!0 -
Firstly, under Revenue rules, anyone can be paid a pension from the age of 50, you just have to retire and your pension scheme has to allow it.
Fourthly, it takes forty years to acquire a full pension in the public service (again except for the security services).
Therefore, as most public servants are recruited as graduates in their early to mid-20s, they are staying until their mid-60s before retiring.
The main point I would make is that the vast majority of public servants fall into the first set of categories - they work until close to 65 and then retire with their pension. The second set include a couple of groups with arguably good reasons for being able to retire early and a couple who don't deserve it. Painting all public servants as being able to go at 55 or 60 w.
Don't forget you can have notional years which are basically extra years added on for free. This way you get a pension based on more years than you have actually worked.
In addition to this you can buy extra years which basically is as it says you buy added years to bring your pension to the full 40 years even if you have worked substantially less than this.0 -
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Don't forget you can have notional years which are basically extra years added on for free. This way you get a pension based on more years than you have actually worked.
Just to make this clear, the average PS worker on the street does not get "Free" years added to their pension. Can you explain how or when a PS member can get this as i'd like to ask for some myselfIn addition to this you can buy extra years which basically is as it says you buy added years to bring your pension to the full 40 years even if you have worked substantially less than this.
The cost to buy one years service is not worth the payment you get. I looked into doing it when i entered the PS pension scheme in 2009 as i had a private PRSA (which has and still is yielding great results) and i was strongly advised by AIB, Pension Advisors in Cornmarket, and IPF not to buy the extra year or two.
It worked out in my case that i would have to pay 13k for one years pension entitlement. It is structured so not to make it appealing to buying years.0 -
Just to make this clear, the average PS worker on the street does not get "Free" years added to their pension. Can you explain how or when a PS member can get this as i'd like to ask for some myself
The cost to buy one years service is not worth the payment you get. I looked into doing it when i entered the PS pension scheme in 2009 as i had a private PRSA (which has and still is yielding great results) and i was strongly advised by AIB, Pension Advisors in Cornmarket, and IPF not to buy the extra year or two.
It worked out in my case that i would have to pay 13k for one years pension entitlement. It is structured so not to make it appealing to buying years.
Notional years are not available to all PS workers.0 -
Prime time did a show about cornmarket and the bad advice they gave PS workers. I think it was teachers in particular. Recheck the advise with an independent financial adviser. 13k for an extra year does not seem that bad. What is your final salary based on current salary scales
Notional years are not available to all PS workers.
Notional years are not available for free and if they are they are to a very very small group of PS workers, probably at the higher levels.0 -
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Notional years are not available for free and if they are they are to a very very small group of PS workers, probably at the higher levels.
To Kceire. Unless your final salary is tiny you were definitely mis advised. Look into it.0 -
Notional years are free and yes are not available to all as I have said.
To Kceire. Unless your final salary is tiny you were definitely mis advised. Look into it.
They are available to very few.
You're advice to kceire is most likely dead on by the way, from a purely financial point of view.
However, no more than anyone we often spend an awful long time worrying above and indeed paying into schemes that we may never see or see very little of.0 -
What is your final salary based on current salary scales
46k approx.Prime time did a show about cornmarket and the bad advice they gave PS workers. I think it was teachers in particular. Recheck the advise with an independent financial adviser.
+1
and that is why i spoke to AIB and Irish Pensions & Finance0 -
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Don't forget you can have notional years which are basically extra years added on for free. This way you get a pension based on more years than you have actually worked. .
Notional added years are very rare. They really only are seen in the higher education sector where you might need a PhD for a job or a Masters with three years experience. They were designed to compensate for the fact that this meant that you had to be older than 25 to get the job and would not qualify for a full pension if you worked to 65.
They also used to feature in the pension arrangements for secretary Generals which have now been changed.
I would say that only around 20-30 people qualify for them every year. Hardly a perk for the majority of public servants.
Since the abolition of the retirement age in 2004 for new entrants, anyone entering since then would not qualify.In addition to this you can buy extra years which basically is as it says you buy added years to bring your pension to the full 40 years even if you have worked substantially less than this.
Buying years arises in a number of situations. If you take a career break to mind your children, the opportunity to buy back those years has to be given to meet equality laws. Similarly, if you start in the public sector at an older age, you may wish to buy years to increase your pension.
However, it is not cheap. The rates have been revised upwards several times and unless you are certain that you will be healthy enough to live past 75, it may not be worth it.
The point I would make about both of those arrangements is that they only apply to a small number of public servants and have no relevance to the vast majority of public servants which is why I did not include a reference to them earlier today.
It would be like saying that private sector employees get cars, gym memberships, VHI fees, golf club memberships, etc and that these should be given to public sector employees.0 -
It would be like saying that private sector employees get cars, gym memberships, VHI fees, golf club memberships, etc and that these should be given to public sector employees.
Speeking of which, my mate in AIB still gets his Gym membership paid for and a 1500e per year well being payment.0 -
It really depends on where you see your career going but in my opinion buying added years is only worthwhile if it is early in your career and you see yourself moving up the ladder with promotions.
In your case you were told that to buy one added year was 13k. The top of your scale is 46k. At first glance this looks like an extremely bad option as the 13k would give you 1/80th of 46k meaning you would have to live 22 years after retirement to benefit.
However, take another scenario. You have twenty years to go in the public service. Inflation over that time totals 50% and your salary increases by that amount meaning your final salary is 69k. Each added year (1/80) is worth €862 per year, meaning you would have to live 15 years after retirement to benefit.
Now assume you are promoted twice and inflation and salary increases are greater so that you end up in 20 years on €130k equivalent to €80k today. You have still spent 13k on the added year but now that added year is worth €1,625 meaning you have to live for 8 years after retirement to benefit.
So you see the question about whether it is worth buying added years comes down to three factors:
(1) how many years you have to retirement as this will help increase
(2) the wage increase/promotions you will have before retirement and finally
(3) how long you expect to live after retirement
Regardless of what an accountant/insurance adviser/actuary tells you, there is an element of guesswork in all three of those as they can tell you what would happen to an average guy but you really need to know what will happen to you.0 -
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I personally think higher paid public servants probably earn on average less than they would in the private sector but I feel the level of accountability is much lower: when was the last time a senior public servant actually lost their job?
I do feel that on average "lower paid" public servants are actually proportionally much better paid than their private sector counterparts. A "low paid" PS admin worker on 30k is getting 50% more than a low paid admin worker in the private sector on 20k (of which there are very many!). There are also vastly more "lower paid" PS workers out there than higher paid ones, so tackling this end would undoubtedly yield a greater saving, but the govt has no stomach to tell these "lower paid" workers that they are in fact well paid for the job they do.
Murphaph you are playing the same game as the Sindo. Presenting figures to suit your arguement. Take a look at the likes of this job, http://irishjobs.ie/Jobs/Administrator-X-3-6884062.aspx or http://irishjobs.ie/Jobs/HR-Administrator-maternity-cover-6878347.aspx
The pay starts at 20K and rises to 30K, If you are going to use the starting salary for the private sector then use the starting salary for the public sector which is 22K and they have a pension levy. The private sector jobs above have pension contributions already. Both private and public sector examples here would have similar take home pay.
Or this one: http://irishjobs.ie/Jobs/Administrator-Secretary-6870268.aspx - nice little earner. 30K to 40K and no pension levy.0 -
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fliball123 wrote: »while the rest of us mere mortals have to wait till 68
I have to wait till 68 too i think, i worked for 5 years in the private sector before taking up my PS job. I wonder will that count towards my 40 years service?0 -
Count Dooku wrote: »he doesn't have job for life
In fairness, you and I are paying that gym membership for him.
Great little country!0 -
Retirement age is 66 and being increased to 68 over time.
Members of the garda can retire at 50 on full pension and indeed are forced to retire at 60 weather they want to or not.Speeking of which, my mate in AIB still gets his Gym membership paid for and a 1500e per year well being payment.
AIB terminated the club subscription scheme on the 1st July last , no fees paid subsequent to that date will be refunded.
It should also be pointed out that AIB in the past paid a portion of membership fees & not the entirety , such portion was also taxed at the highest applicable rate.
AIB's well being scheme exists to promote health awareness for staff & is not some sort of bonus scheme.0 -
Kallie Numerous Rayon wrote: »http://intern.jobbridge.ie/Default.aspx?q=B+fomdowzS8kaDnSlUDk1zaMUPiFEeNrNWjviinu490thmC2C0u+DMDOxV0c8CGMSKSrw4K2Sr2Hq35333jfBQWjjJBPnW55xk1B5hzC/HwA0/UYNXhjmowP6OeyrLvX5TFn9Lv/rscHnOpzlh9DEgv5F1I199r91EZ/aoDNIDJIdRyoOnsENCLAUTP6MkswpeJVtQnIT3yB41mFaN0t8BzOZozd/xpz5LXjCr3OzvPoE7UqRhUTaXxjSRCISqMxnUEjz+8+DJMYWT6SoQ5zt0ruDkdSEwPVad4VP0u1DaY3RQCvVwhstF0b8r9isVvmXMHIC1E+zp5ZQxdxsOq65E1HX7CgM/9sOHQTLgqzSHpOxxB2l+sPqxEF7cy6/Ry0ObHPfNvd0J+X4ZO3TxZcIkbmsEAAgJ8PxuRFB3PLO6X242SjHaYUHLgPsDnrA82hHe+k5TkuIvVJH+80viY5C5kLt2X7JJ+jFtpEYplFR/s=
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And I just picked those at random...have a look yourself on the jobsbridge website!
Im not looking through all those, i picked 3 at random all classroom assistants
Not as you said in your comment quoted below, cleaning security and maintenance.
Please provide some supporting evidence for your comment, I did not ask about classroom assistants!Kallie Numerous Rayon wrote: »There's a lot of schools who are using jobsbridge to fill any vacancies they may have around cleaning, security and school maintenance.0 -
It really depends on where you see your career going but in my opinion buying added years is only worthwhile if it is early in your career and you see yourself moving up the ladder with promotions.
In your case you were told that to buy one added year was 13k. The top of your scale is 46k. At first glance this looks like an extremely bad option as the 13k would give you 1/80th of 46k meaning you would have to live 22 years after retirement to benefit.
However, take another scenario. You have twenty years to go in the public service. Inflation over that time totals 50% and your salary increases by that amount meaning your final salary is 69k. Each added year (1/80) is worth €862 per year, meaning you would have to live 15 years after retirement to benefit.
Now assume you are promoted twice and inflation and salary increases are greater so that you end up in 20 years on €130k equivalent to €80k today. You have still spent 13k on the added year but now that added year is worth €1,625 meaning you have to live for 8 years after retirement to benefit.
So you see the question about whether it is worth buying added years comes down to three factors:
(1) how many years you have to retirement as this will help increase
(2) the wage increase/promotions you will have before retirement and finally
(3) how long you expect to live after retirement
Regardless of what an accountant/insurance adviser/actuary tells you, there is an element of guesswork in all three of those as they can tell you what would happen to an average guy but you really need to know what will happen to you.0 -
It really depends on where you see your career going but in my opinion buying added years is only worthwhile if it is early in your career and you see yourself moving up the ladder with promotions.
In your case you were told that to buy one added year was 13k. The top of your scale is 46k. At first glance this looks like an extremely bad option as the 13k would give you 1/80th of 46k meaning you would have to live 22 years after retirement to benefit.
However, take another scenario. You have twenty years to go in the public service. Inflation over that time totals 50% and your salary increases by that amount meaning your final salary is 69k. Each added year (1/80) is worth €862 per year, meaning you would have to live 15 years after retirement to benefit.
Now assume you are promoted twice and inflation and salary increases are greater so that you end up in 20 years on €130k equivalent to €80k today. You have still spent 13k on the added year but now that added year is worth €1,625 meaning you have to live for 8 years after retirement to benefit.
So you see the question about whether it is worth buying added years comes down to three factors:
(1) how many years you have to retirement as this will help increase
(2) the wage increase/promotions you will have before retirement and finally
(3) how long you expect to live after retirement
Regardless of what an accountant/insurance adviser/actuary tells you, there is an element of guesswork in all three of those as they can tell you what would happen to an average guy but you really need to know what will happen to you.
Thanks for the detailed response. Some good reading in there.
I'm early in my PS career and it may be short lived due to contract cutting etc but I would have 34 years till retirement if I was to stay as a PS worker.
My position is in a sept of only 9 people. We have one boss. I'm the last in. I can never see myself being promotors as there is only one position I can be promoted to unless I change career paths. My managers final salary is 55k so in theory I suppose this is the maximum I could ever finish up assuming promotion to manager at some stage but very doubtful if I'm honest.
I would never reach the salary figures you have quoted in your post though Ai the figures would be scaled down a good bit.Count Dooku wrote: »he doesn't have job for life
Either do I.0 -
Thanks for the detailed response. Some good reading in there.
I'm eat in my PS career and it may be short lives due to contract cutting etc but I would have 34 years till retirement if I was to stay as a PS worker.
My position is in a sept of only 9 people. We have one boss. I'm the last in. I can never see myself being promotors as there is only one position I can be promoted to unless I change career paths. My managers final salary is 55k so in theory I suppose this is the maximum I could ever finish up assuming promotion to manager at some stage but very doubtful if I'm honest.
I would never reach the salary figures you have quoted in your post though Ai the figures would be scaled down a good bit.
34 years ago was 1978, your 46k job was probably only 9k. The added year would have cost 2.5k meaning that if you were retiring today, between the lump sum and the pension, after one or two years you would have your money back. unfortunately, that probably wouldn't happen again as that included the high inflation of the 1980s. just goes to show that you never know. Even in that case that looks good, you could die after six months0 -
Here we go, apples and oranges again.
How much does it cost to visit a doctor/dentist there?
What does the average solicitor earn?
What has the cost of living got to do with it, the costs in the UK are the same for people whether they are private or public. I am not highlighting the costs but the fact that public in the UK can seemingly get paid 7% more than private but in Ireland for some reason they are worth over 40% more. I can also point to a report where they acknowledge the extra qualified and professionals staff members in public over private.
I still don't have any other reason than they are overpaid and no one else can rebut it.0 -
Head The Wall wrote: »What has the cost of living got to do with it, the costs in the UK are the same for people whether they are private or public. I am not highlighting the costs but the fact that public in the UK can seemingly get paid 7% more than private but in Ireland for some reason they are worth over 40% more. I can also point to a report where they acknowledge the extra qualified and professionals staff members in public over private.
I still don't have any other reason than they are overpaid and no one else can rebut it.
On the face of it you make a valid point. However, there are a number of other points to consider. The mix of employment in the English private sector is different to the mix of employment in the Irish private sector. For example, when it comes to lawyers, there are a greater number of Irish lawyers in partnerships rather than in employment relationships. In the UK, it is the opposite.
Then there is the London financial sector which pushes up the average private sector wage in the UK but is not replicated in Ireland.
You would have to take these and other factors into account (including historical developments such as the privatisation agenda in the UK) before being able to say you are comparing like with like. I am not saying you are wrong, just saying that a flat comparison is wrong.0 -
I will agree with you that it is never going to be a straightforward flat comparison but the % difference still seems to be to large in my eyes.0
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