Croke Park Agreement beyond 2014

murphaph

galway2007 wrote: »

But will people on the dole have to pay a property tax?

Good question. If someone has wealth in the form of property then they should not be exempt from a wealth tax. They probably will be though, which will lead to all sorts of ducking and diving (transfering sole ownership to spouse who is unemployed etc.) to avoid paying. It's Ireland after all-only certain people need to contribute! :mad:

creedp

murphaph wrote: »

Good question. If someone has wealth in the form of property then they should not be exempt from a wealth tax. They probably will be though, which will lead to all sorts of ducking and diving (transfering sole ownership to spouse who is unemployed etc.) to avoid paying. It's Ireland after all-only certain people need to contribute! :mad:

Why should someone be exempt simply because they are on the dole? Would it not be better to determine contributions based on an income threshold? We already have this problem with the medical card where low income workers are not qualifying for one while some social welfare recipients are because there sole income is from social welfare even though this income is above the medical card income thresholds.

Another issue here is the use of 'wealth'. Normally in economic/financial terms wealth is 'net wealth' not 'gross wealth'. If two people have a house of similar value but one is in negative equity and the other has no mortgage, which one has more 'wealth'? Is it fair that the person with negative 'asset wealth' should pay the same level of tax as someone with positive asset wealth? In any case we are not looking at a wealth tax as I could have a €100m in the bank and I wouldn't attact this 'wealth tax'. Again, go after the soft touch.

n97 mini

murphaph wrote: »

Good question. If someone has wealth in the form of property then they should not be exempt from a wealth tax.

In the UK everyone has to pay. In Ireland if you're a medical card holder you get all sorts of cash benefits and other exemptions, so it's unlikely medical card holders will have to pay property tax.

I sometimes think that we're gone so PC in this country that unless everyone is taking home the same, whether they're on the dole, in the public sector, or working their ass off creating wealth in the private sector (let's tax the "mega rich" some more, get them to pay their "fair share"), that some people won't be happy.

Good loser

creedp wrote: »

Why should someone be exempt simply because they are on the dole? Would it not be better to determine contributions based on an income threshold? We already have this problem with the medical card where low income workers are not qualifying for one while some social welfare recipients are because there sole income is from social welfare even though this income is above the medical card income thresholds.

Another issue here is the use of 'wealth'. Normally in economic/financial terms wealth is 'net wealth' not 'gross wealth'. If two people have a house of similar value but one is in negative equity and the other has no mortgage, which one has more 'wealth'? Is it fair that the person with negative 'asset wealth' should pay the same level of tax as someone with positive asset wealth? In any case we are not looking at a wealth tax as I could have a €100m in the bank and I wouldn't attact this 'wealth tax'. Again, go after the soft touch.

There should be very limited exemptions - in fact the same as in Britain - about 2/3% of the population such as the disabled. They have 25% rebate for single occupants - again that's fair enough.

Those with €100 m in the bank (me for instance) pay 27 or 30% DIRT on the interest and have to top up income tax if on the high rate of tax.

There are problems with every tax but a house property tax is basic common sense in operation. Call it a mini wealth tax. We had it here for 125 years until FF goons removed it to buy an election.

jased10s

Also why are corporation renters exempt for household charges. Mostly they work and have cheap rent with maintainance done for them at no extra charge.

Seems a fudge for letting off the corporation working out their charges.

Farmer Pudsey

Good loser wrote: »

There should be very limited exemptions - in fact the same as in Britain - about 2/3% of the population such as the disabled. They have 25% rebate for single occupants - again that's fair enough.

Those with €100 m in the bank (me for instance) pay 27 or 30% DIRT on the interest and have to top up income tax if on the high rate of tax.

There are problems with every tax but a house property tax is basic common sense in operation. Call it a mini wealth tax. We had it here for 125 years until FF goons removed it to buy an election.

jased10s wrote: »

Also why are corporation renters exempt for household charges. Mostly they work and have cheap rent with maintainance done for them at no extra charge.

Seems a fudge for letting off the corporation working out their charges.

You cannot have that most people in council houses are unemployed, all they have is welfare...........medical cards...........back to school allowances...........3rd level grants (super rate)...........fuel allowance.......supplementry welfare...............frees School exams......discount to GAA matches.............bin waivers in some counties..... we cannot charge them the householdcharge they are renting at a super high rate....................much better to hit a young working family..............paying cartax....creshe fees....morgtage..... take the CA off them.........after all the people on welfare need the money for there kids and (cigs and drink) cannot possibly suffer a reduction in lifestyle

creedp

Good loser wrote: »

Those with €100 m in the bank (me for instance) pay 27 or 30% DIRT on the interest and have to top up income tax if on the high rate of tax.

Any chance of a few bob? My point was that you're only paying tax on the income generated from the capital .. same as any other investment. However, I don't think you are paying anything on the actual capital? (However I do accept that your not liable for stamp duty on the sale of your home as you would be with a non principle private residence) This is why I referred to the easy touch .. its a lot easier to move financial capital to another jurisdiction to avoid taxes but your house is a different matter so lets fleece!

There are problems with every tax but a house property tax is basic common sense in operation. Call it a mini wealth tax. We had it here for 125 years until FF goons removed it to buy an election.

Then let's call a spade a spade - rates - and link it to service provision. Its not a wealth tax as its not based on asset value but some kind of proxy/poxy 'market value'.

barneystinson

Good loser wrote: »

Those with €100 m in the bank (me for instance) pay 27 or 30% DIRT on the interest and have to top up income tax if on the high rate of tax.

That's incorrect, DIRT is a final liability tax; if you're under 65 your tax liability on the interest will be the same regardless of whether your other taxable income is nil or 1million.

creedp

barneystinson wrote: »

That's incorrect, DIRT is a final liability tax; if you're under 65 your tax liability on the interest will be the same regardless of whether your other taxable income is nil or 1million.

I think the point being made was that if your marginal rate of tax is 42%, then you are liable to a top up tax of the difference between the DIRT tax rate and the marginal rate plus levies. The DIRT tax rate is the minimum you pay on earned interest irrespective of your tax liability on other income.

barneystinson

creedp wrote: »

I think the point being made was that if your marginal rate of tax is 42%, then you are liable to a top up tax of the difference between the DIRT tax rate and the marginal rate plus levies. The DIRT tax rate is the minimum you pay on earned interest irrespective of your tax liability on other income.

Yes, and the point being made was incorrect, and what you've stated above is also incorrect - you don't pay any top-up tax. If you have 100k of other income and 3k of deposit income, a total of 103k - you will pay tax @ 20% on 32,800, tax @ 27% on 3k, and tax @ 41% on the remainder. And below the line you get credit for the DIRT deducted from the 3k. No top up. The DIRT satisfies in full your liabilityto income tax on the interest.

Good loser

barneystinson wrote: »

Yes, and the point being made was incorrect, and what you've stated above is also incorrect - you don't pay any top-up tax. If you have 100k of other income and 3k of deposit income, a total of 103k - you will pay tax @ 20% on 32,800, tax @ 27% on 3k, and tax @ 41% on the remainder. And below the line you get credit for the DIRT deducted from the 3k. No top up. The DIRT satisfies in full your liabilityto income tax on the interest.

Didn't know this was the case. I'll up the deposit so to €200 m -from my offshore account! Thanks.

Good loser

creedp wrote: »

Any chance of a few bob? My point was that you're only paying tax on the income generated from the capital .. same as any other investment. However, I don't think you are paying anything on the actual capital? (However I do accept that your not liable for stamp duty on the sale of your home as you would be with a non principle private residence) This is why I referred to the easy touch .. its a lot easier to move financial capital to another jurisdiction to avoid taxes but your house is a different matter so lets fleece!


Then let's call a spade a spade - rates - and link it to service provision. Its not a wealth tax as its not based on asset value but some kind of proxy/poxy 'market value'.

It is a basic truism about taxes that the best ones are unavoidable or as difficult as possible to wriggle out of. Hence the fairness of a house property tax and why all (non micky mouse) countries have one.

ManMade

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Good loser wrote: »

There should be very limited exemptions - in fact the same as in Britain - about 2/3% of the population such as the disabled. They have 25% rebate for single occupants - again that's fair enough.

Those with €100 m in the bank (me for instance) pay 27 or 30% DIRT on the interest and have to top up income tax if on the high rate of tax.

There are problems with every tax but a house property tax is basic common sense in operation. Call it a mini wealth tax. We had it here for 125 years until FF goons removed it to buy an election.

jased10s wrote: »

Also why are corporation renters exempt for household charges. Mostly they work and have cheap rent with maintainance done for them at no extra charge.

Seems a fudge for letting off the corporation working out their charges.

You cannot have that most people in council houses are unemployed, all they have is welfare...........medical cards...........back to school allowances...........3rd level grants (super rate)...........fuel allowance.......supplementry welfare...............frees School exams......discount to GAA matches.............bin waivers in some counties..... we cannot charge them the householdcharge they are renting at a super high rate....................much better to hit a young working family..............paying cartax....creshe fees....morgtage..... take the CA off them.........after all the people on welfare need the money for there kids and (cigs and drink) cannot possibly suffer a reduction in lifestyle

I like the way you look at things. I hate how people trying to make a living are supposed to also support those who refuse to even try. Why do those with "nothing" get everything free while those with any money are taxed to oblivion and pay for everything and on top of that you have labour defending this current system while FG take aim at the middle class and will chip away at them yet again in this upcoming budget. What's also amazing is how the self employed the powerhouse of this economy who create wealth and jobs are deprived of any safety net. Well as long as those " do nothing complain about having nothing" can afford to run there cars, buy smokes and ladbrookes, let the state pay for there children's upbringing... Only fair.

road_high

ManMade wrote: »

I like the way you look at things. I hate how people trying to make a living are supposed to also support those who refuse to even try. Why do those with "nothing" get everything free while those with any money are taxed to oblivion and pay for everything and on top of that you have labour defending this current system while FG take aim at the middle class and will chip away at them yet again in this upcoming budget. What's also amazing is how the self employed the powerhouse of this economy who create wealth and jobs are deprived of any safety net. Well as long as those " do nothing complain about having nothing" can afford to run there cars, buy smokes and ladbrookes, let the state pay for there children's upbringing... Only fair.

The more you earn and "contribute", the less and less (usually nothing) you are entitled to. The system rewards unproductivity in the main.

Tea drinker

Health minister fires lonely cannon at Croke Park deal:

threw the Croke Park Agreement on to the negotiating table with a veiled threat that pay is "the elephant in the room".

...
...

Dr Reilly said in some areas of the health service pay accounted for 70% of the budget and in some NGO areas 90%.

The minister was forced on to the offensive after the Health Service Executive (HSE) yesterday revealed the extent of potentially debilitating budget cuts.

The biggest hits are to be taken in agency work, overtime, home help and home care, which hits older people and disabled particularly hard, and 50,000 fewer medical card holders.

The drastic action sparked accusations of attacks on the most vulnerable just days after the Government wished every success to the Paralympians in London 2012.

Dr Reilly said that savings could not be properly addressed without looking at Croke Park, the 2009 agreement which guaranteed public sector reform in return for core pay being protected.

Wasn't Varadakar out defending Croker today?

Pa Dee

The union scum need to be defeated

Brussels Sprout

Tea drinker wrote: »

Health minister fires lonely cannon at Croke Park deal:

Wasn't Varadakar out defending Croker today?

Yes he was! I heard the news bulletin on the radio talking about Reilly's comments and it mentioned that another cabinet minister had come out backing the CPA. I said to myself "Well that'll be Burton or Howlin anyway". Was shocked and a disappointed to hear it was Varadkar.

woodoo

Pa Dee wrote: »

The union scum need to be defeated

Quality post.


Unions are just doing their job. They are paid to represent the interests of their members.

doc_17

I suppose early next year will reveal whether the gov want to renegotiate the CPA or let it lapse.

As a union member I don't care one way or the other. There will be benefits to keeping it in and benefits to not having it.

The bigger imminent issue will the review of allowances. Croke Park might not last its full term

woodoo

doc_17 wrote: »

As a union member I don't care one way or the other. There will be benefits to keeping it in and benefits to not having it.

What do you see as the benefits to each?

femur61

woodoo wrote: »

Quality post.


Unions are just doing their job. They are paid to represent the interests of their members.

And what the interests of the people, who incidently pay their wages. In order to keep teachers on their inflated wages we are loosing SNAs, lack of resorces in the classroom. Beds in hospitals are being closed, home help and home care is affected. the careers allownaceis decimated - all to keep the upper echoleons of the PS with an inflated wage.

Head The Wall

Union members are obviously too short sighted to see the damage being done to the state they themselves have to live in. I believe that no PS union member has the right to complain about any issues with services while they themselves have their noses in the trough.

Bits_n_Bobs

O'Reilly is clearly looking to create headlines about the CPA and divert attention from his own failure to keep his own dept spending to the budget. Before the summer break he fired the CEO of the HSE for similar reasons. Looking forward to next months excuses from this blustering idiot.

Anthony16

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Yes he was! I heard the news bulletin on the radio talking about Reilly's comments and it mentioned that another cabinet minister had come out backing the CPA. I said to myself "Well that'll be Burton or Howlin anyway". Was shocked and a disappointed to hear it was Varadkar.

Clearly he has been gagged.What politician has the bottle to go up against the unions and go against his own party colleagues. Everybody can see the public sector is holding the country down.Its sickening to think disabled and elderly are being hit while the fat cats at the top of the public service are not touched.Some librarians are on 100k a year,its incredible!:eek:
By right the average private sector worker should be paid more than their public sector counterpart due to the latter receiving a guaranteed pension,lump sum and 35 hour week plus 2 weeks compulsory sick leave a year.Government jobs used to have bad pay and good benefits.now they have good pay and great benefits

doc_17

woodoo wrote: »

What do you see as the benefits to each?

Benefits for keping it would be obvious - protection of pay.

Benefits of getting rid of it? For my job (teacher) we would no longer be required to engage in the extra "hours". These hours are an insult to most teachers and are doing more harm than good. They are eroding goodwill and as a result many are no longer engaging in extra-curricular activities which isn't good for anybody.

Einhard

Head The Wall wrote: »

Union members are obviously too short sighted to see the damage being done to the state they themselves have to live in. I believe that no PS union member has the right to complain about any issues with services while they themselves have their noses in the trough.

Does every member of the PS have their noses in a trough? Or just some? And should it be up to individuals to decide if they're at the trough, or will a committee be set up to advise on this? I'm asking because we'll need to identify those who are slopping at the trough so we can tell them their views are unimportant.

padser12345

.....now there's a word! A word that drives a stake, into the heart of every blood sucking Public Sector worker!

Why not?

Do we not crave efficiency?

Are we not tired of the delinquent minded sucklers of an apparently broke nation?

I am!

Are you?

woodoo

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

O'Reilly is clearly looking to create headlines about the CPA and divert attention from his own failure to keep his own dept spending to the budget. Before the summer break he fired the CEO of the HSE for similar reasons. Looking forward to next months excuses from this blustering idiot.

Its as clear as day that is what the government are at. Varadkar was sent out to throw a spanner in the works about 2 months ago now he is out defending Croke Park?? O'Reilly is up s**t creek, all attention should be on him but he comes out and throws the peasants a scrap of meat to squabble over and surprise surprise off they go. Everyone will be talking about croke park again.

Croke Park is not going to be broken with just over a year to go. Neither the Troika or the Government are interested in breaking it. Its only the Sunday Independent and a few other media outlets that are going hell for leather to get it scrapped but they are just using the furore to sell papers.

sarumite

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

O'Reilly is clearly looking to create headlines about the CPA and divert attention from his own failure to keep his own dept spending to the budget. Before the summer break he fired the CEO of the HSE for similar reasons. Looking forward to next months excuses from this blustering idiot.

It is a little bit unfair to say it is his own failure considering the shackles placed on him by government policy. It is not as if he has free reign to do what is necessary to control the budget. He doesn't have any control over a major portion of his department spending, thus he cannot be held fully accountable for the problems with the budget overrun.

ardmacha

sarumite wrote:

It is a little bit unfair to say it is his own failure considering the shackles placed on him by government policy. It is not as if he has free reign to do what is necessary to control the budget. He doesn't have any control over a major portion of his department spending, thus he cannot be held fully accountable for the problems with the budget overrun.

If the HSE budget was a valid exercise in budgeting it did not envisage pay changes. If the HSE cannot keep to its budget then something else is off course and this talk of the CPA is just an attempt at distraction.

Tea drinker

Bits_n_Bobs wrote: »

O'Reilly is clearly looking to create headlines about the CPA and divert attention from his own failure to keep his own dept spending to the budget. Before the summer break he fired the CEO of the HSE for similar reasons. Looking forward to next months excuses from this blustering idiot.

Some lad got fired in Ireland, clearly this is not on as accountability is illegal here.

If pay is up to 90% of the cost, if some departments didn't treat a single
patient it still wouldn't produce much saving would it?

Asked whether he believed the agreement should be renegotiated, Dr Reilly
said he wanted to see all elements outside of core pay explored first.


He cited overtime rates and agency staff, both of which related to
absenteeism, he said.


“If 70 per cent of budget is pay, and up to 90 per cent in some areas, then
you can’t make savings without addressing that issue. It just has to be
addressed. But that is a broader issue than health.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0901/1224323462605.html

ParkRunner

woodoo wrote: »

Its as clear as day that is what the government are at. Varadkar was sent out to throw a spanner in the works about 2 months ago now he is out defending Croke Park?? O'Reilly is up s**t creek, all attention should be on him but he comes out and throws the peasants a scrap of meat to squabble over and surprise surprise off they go. Everyone will be talking about croke park again.

Croke Park is not going to be broken with just over a year to go. Neither the Troika or the Government are interested in breaking it. Its only the Sunday Independent and a few other media outlets that are going hell for leather to get it scrapped but they are just using the furore to sell papers.

True to form the SIndo has dedicated 7 pages of 'analysis' to the Croke Park deal. I haven't seen (nor will I see) the analysis as I'll be buying a different paper to get less biased information on current affairs.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/reilly-shafted-cabinet-backs-croke-perks-3216960.html

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

If the HSE budget was a valid exercise in budgeting it did not envisage pay changes. If the HSE cannot keep to its budget then something else is off course and this talk of the CPA is just an attempt at distraction.

It apparently didn't envisage needing additional agency staff and some of the overtime payments either. While I am not at all suggesting that the HSE staff are unproductive, there is clearly a problem of overall productivity within the HSE if additional resources are required. I don't see how one can discuss productivity within the HSE without mentioning the CPA.

n97 mini

EF wrote: »

True to form the SIndo has dedicated 7 pages of 'analysis' to the Croke Park deal. I haven't seen (nor will I see) the analysis as I'll be buying a different paper to get less biased information on current affairs.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/reilly-shafted-cabinet-backs-croke-perks-3216960.html

Trying to figure out which is the most ridiculous allowance:
Department of Social Welfare: forklift allowance of €34.49 a week, or
Department of Agriculture: an allowance of €3,087 a year to meat inspectors to compensate for the smell in meat factories and bone meal plants, or
Department of the Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht: a 'tool' allowance of €844 a year

gazzer

Anthony16 wrote: »

Clearly he has been gagged.What politician has the bottle to go up against the unions and go against his own party colleagues. Everybody can see the public sector is holding the country down.Its sickening to think disabled and elderly are being hit while the fat cats at the top of the public service are not touched.Some librarians are on 100k a year,its incredible!:eek:
By right the average private sector worker should be paid more than their public sector counterpart due to the latter receiving a guaranteed pension,lump sum and 35 hour week plus 2 weeks compulsory sick leave a year.Government jobs used to have bad pay and good benefits.now they have good pay and great benefits

Where the hell did you pull that one out of Public sector does not get 2 weeks compulsory sick leave a year.

doc_17

I didn't know it was compulsory for me to be sick two weeks each year! Think I'll be sick the Monday and Tuesday after Donegal play in the all irelnd final.

Vizzy

doc_17 wrote: »

I didn't know it was compulsory for me to be sick two weeks each year! Think I'll be sick the Monday and Tuesday after Donegal play in the all irelnd final.

Theres no "think" about it.
It's compulsory ( as is the Monday and Tuesday after the hurling final).
Did you not get the memo ?:)

grover_green

n97 mini wrote: »

Trying to figure out which is the most ridiculous allowance:
Department of Social Welfare: forklift allowance of €34.49 a week, or
Department of Agriculture: an allowance of €3,087 a year to meat inspectors to compensate for the smell in meat factories and bone meal plants, or
Department of the Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht: a 'tool' allowance of €844 a year

the rank odour ( compensation allowance ) from slaughtered bullocks takes the cake for me

woodoo

grover_green wrote: »

the rank odour ( compensation allowance ) from slaughtered bullocks takes the cake for me

Is i true though? Just because the Sunday Independent prints something doesn't mean its true... far from it.

Count Dooku

woodoo wrote: »

Is i true though? Just because the Sunday Independent prints something doesn't mean its true... far from it.

Do you mean that it 16 cents less?
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2012/07/03/00365.asp

grover_green

woodoo wrote: »

Is i true though? Just because the Sunday Independent prints something doesn't mean its true... far from it.

yeah , demonise the sindo instead

woodoo

grover_green wrote: »

yeah , demonise the sindo instead

I have read quite a bit on that paper down the years relating to the PS that i knew was complete bull. I don't trust them.

d9oiu2wk07blr5

The minister for health stated that 70% of health expenditure went on salaries....well, here's a report on government expenditure in 2011 that shows that 56% of health spending went on salaries in 2009. It also details the amount of expenditure that is taken up by salaries in education.

http://www.finfacts.ie/biz10/Ireland_Spending_beyond_our_Means_2011.pdf

n97 mini

Kallie Numerous Rayon wrote: »

56% of health spending went on salaries in 2009.

All cuts have been to areas other than salaries, so it's only natural that salaries will make up a greater portion of expenditure. Not possible in health, but probably possible in education that 100% of expenditure, or very close to it, is possible.

ardmacha

All cuts have not been in areas other than salaries, as you very well know that salaries have been cut and numbers have been cut.

Why post nonsense?

Head The Wall

Einhard wrote: »

Does every member of the PS have their noses in a trough? Or just some? And should it be up to individuals to decide if they're at the trough, or will a committee be set up to advise on this? I'm asking because we'll need to identify those who are slopping at the trough so we can tell them their views are unimportant.

The unions voted in the CPA so yes every union member currently has their nose in the trough.

martingriff

Head The Wall wrote: »

The unions voted in the CPA so yes every union member currently has their nose in the trough.

Not every union voted for the CPA but as the unions are together in a Union (for want of a better word) they all follow it.

Some unions like the CPSU had reservations like the one's that we are seeing with all wages been protected where were saving coming from and also by the way people are leaving it can leave a overstock of people is certain jobs and grades and a strech in others. In relation to this CPA I see it been scrapped by the end of the year as the only way to correct the overspend on the HSE is to tackle wages.

Head The Wall

That's what they have to accept with collective bargaining. The CPSU may have voted against it but they are the ones benefiting from it, if they feel that strongly about it then they should try and do something about it.

donalg1

Its a bit rich that Reilly is there telling people that they will have to take pay cuts when he is on €92k a year plus another €50k in expenses, and he is telling people on a fraction of that they will have to take a pay cut. Someone needs to shut up and lead by example I think, especially when the HSE are the biggest offenders for being over budget.

A friend of mine told me at the weekend that their sister signed up for RAS a couple of weeks ago and that the Council pay the deposit to the landlord of one months rent, or they hold it anyway. Now previously she had got a deposit from the HSE for private rented place as she couldnt afford it, the landlord gave this back to her as the Council were going to cover the deposit now. So she went to the HSE with the money to give it back to them and they told her they couldnt receipt it as they werent set up for this so she should just keep it. Now that is hundreds of euro they should have taken but didnt bother, so makes me wonder how many times each week or this year this has happened across the country what a waste of money throughout the HSE.

ncdadam

donalg1 wrote: »

A friend of mine told me at the weekend that their sister signed up for RAS a couple of weeks ago and that the Council pay the deposit to the landlord of one months rent, or they hold it anyway.

Local Authorities do not pay deposits to or hold a deposit for landlords for RAS properties.