Croke Park Agreement beyond 2014

srsly78

Laminations wrote: »

They purchase things in Ireland thus paying VAT and that's just one tax they'd pay.

Best case scenario: this gains us NOTHING. Money goes out, money comes back = zero. Real case = net drain on economy because they spend money on imported stuff. See recent Irish Times article about how nothing is really "made in Ireland" anymore.

Similarly stupid argument: public sector employees raise lots of money by paying tax.

Pharaoh1

ncdadam wrote: »

Do you think they will allow this government preside over the level of waste, perks and allowances that your unions think are 'entitlements' while the country is running a €15 billion deficit?


Tomorrow will be fun when Howlin tries to tackle a few of the most ridiculous allowances there is.

All the evidence to date suggests that they are happy enough with all of that.
Welfare payments seem to be the only thing in their sights.

Looks like there will be no fun and no changes. We'll carry on for now. When in doubt - Do nothing

Head The Wall

Laminations wrote: »

They purchase things in Ireland thus paying VAT and that's just one tax they'd pay.

They purchase things with money given to them by the government that has been borrowed and then they give some of it back to them via VAT. Maths is obviously not your strong point

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

Being honest I think O'reilly has a thankless task..trying to make cuts when 80/90% of the money is off the table via the CPA.. There is going to be a major decision to be made in 2014 when the cpa runs out...O'Reilly is forced to make the cuts he made as he has 10% of what we pay on Health to play with. as for Varadkar he has said we should leave the CPA run its course..if they can get the other associated costs other than pay such as allowences down between here and 2014 it will be a job well done..Then 2014 all bets are off. The PS will have to take another a pay cut...I reckon the dole will be cut this year as taxes will increase...

You have been saying that the public service will have to take another pay-cut since the last one in January 2010. The country is still waiting for it to happen.

I will continue with my prediction that (other possibly than consultants and some other very highly-paid people - more than €130,000), there will not be another pay cut. Neither will there be a cut in social welfare rates or an increase in income tax rates.

What will happen in relation to public service pay is that increased attention will focus on work practices (how many nurses do you need in a ward? how much time should be spent in school by teachers? how many motor tax applications should be processed in an hour?) and on ancillary payments (what level of shift arrangement/payment is best for the fire service or the gardai?). Increments will be harder to get and numbers will be brought down further but there will be no general cut to public service pay. Sorry to disappoint the anti-public service jihad but I have been right for the last two years on this.

Similarly, eligibility rules will be tightened for social welfare, rent allowance will be cut further, it will be harder to get ancillary benefits as the rules are changed, medical card entitlement will be tightened, refusing work/training will see you thrown off the dole, child benefit will be cut but the basic €188 payment will remain unchanged.

In relation to tax, the septic tank charge, the property tax, water charges, second home charge, excise duties will all come in or increase. Tax credits will be reduced/eliminated and tax bands reduced, as well as more enforcement but the two basic rates will not be touched.

All of the above are tough measures and everyone will feel the pain from public servants to social welfare recipients and the so-far unaffected private sector jobs in multi-nationals. However, it will be enough if the external environment does not get worse, it is only in the event of a collapse in Europe will all bets be off and we do not know how likely that is. In fact, most of the commentators calling for public sector pay cuts thought that Greece would be well gone from the Euro over a year ago.

Godge

Head The Wall wrote: »

They purchase things with money given to them by the government that has been borrowed and then they give some of it back to them via VAT. Maths is obviously not your strong point

Have you heard of the multiplier effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_(economics)


It is not the straight-line equation you think it to be.

srsly78

Godge wrote: »

Have you heard of the multiplier effect?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplier_(economics)


It is not the straight-line equation you think it to be.

Wow... so we don't need jobs at all. Just give everyone the dole, noone has to work - and the multiplier effect will look after the rest right?

Similarly: Let's stimulate the economy by running around smashing all the windows. This will create lots of jobs for glaziers and carpenters right?

Godge

ncdadam wrote: »

Do you think they will allow this government preside over the level of waste, perks and allowances that your unions think are 'entitlements' while the country is running a €15 billion deficit?

Tomorrow will be fun when Howlin tries to tackle a few of the most ridiculous allowances there is.

"A few" is the operative word. He will probably tackle a few of them but will leave the vast majority of them alone as he would lose any case taken under the Croke Park Agreement.

Godge

srsly78 wrote: »

Wow... so we don't need jobs at all. Just give everyone the dole, noone has to work - and the multiplier effect will look after the rest right?

Similarly: Let's stimulate the economy by running around smashing all the windows. This will create lots of jobs for glaziers and carpenters right?

Nope, that is not the way it works but you would have to get a bit deeper into Keynes to find that out, that is if you believe his economic model (I would acknowledge that because of the small open economy we have, the current savings ratio among the general population and the debt overhang that it is possible that the multiplier effect of any fiscal spending is less than 1 in the current situation).

Point is that it is not as simple as some posters here make it out to be.

Tea drinker

srsly78 wrote: »

Wow... so we don't need jobs at all. Just give everyone the dole, noone has to work - and the multiplier effect will look after the rest right?

Similarly: Let's stimulate the economy by running around smashing all the windows. This will create lots of jobs for glaziers and carpenters right?

Nope, bottom line is taxpayers cannot be trusted with money, otherwise they would spend it unprductively, whears civil servants would spend it wisely. Basically we are so stoopid we would just burn it, or lose in the gap at the dart forget where we left it etc. There's literally no stimulus that we can do as the money would just dissappear.

Idbatterim

Nope, bottom line is taxpayers cannot be trusted with money, otherwise they would spend it unprductively, whears civil servants would spend it wisely. Basically we are so stoopid we would just burn it, or lose in the gap at the dart forget where we left it etc. There's literally no stimulus that we can do as the money would just dissappear.

dont forget that one of the unions main arguments against pay cuts is that their members wouldnt have it to spend and circulate around the domestic economy, their a very thoughtful bunch LOL

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

You have been saying that the public service will have to take another pay-cut since the last one in January 2010. The country is still waiting for it to happen.

I will continue with my prediction that (other possibly than consultants and some other very highly-paid people - more than €130,000), there will not be another pay cut. Neither will there be a cut in social welfare rates or an increase in income tax rates.

What will happen in relation to public service pay is that increased attention will focus on work practices (how many nurses do you need in a ward? how much time should be spent in school by teachers? how many motor tax applications should be processed in an hour?) and on ancillary payments (what level of shift arrangement/payment is best for the fire service or the gardai?). Increments will be harder to get and numbers will be brought down further but there will be no general cut to public service pay. Sorry to disappoint the anti-public service jihad but I have been right for the last two years on this.

Similarly, eligibility rules will be tightened for social welfare, rent allowance will be cut further, it will be harder to get ancillary benefits as the rules are changed, medical card entitlement will be tightened, refusing work/training will see you thrown off the dole, child benefit will be cut but the basic €188 payment will remain unchanged.

In relation to tax, the septic tank charge, the property tax, water charges, second home charge, excise duties will all come in or increase. Tax credits will be reduced/eliminated and tax bands reduced, as well as more enforcement but the two basic rates will not be touched.

All of the above are tough measures and everyone will feel the pain from public servants to social welfare recipients and the so-far unaffected private sector jobs in multi-nationals. However, it will be enough if the external environment does not get worse, it is only in the event of a collapse in Europe will all bets be off and we do not know how likely that is. In fact, most of the commentators calling for public sector pay cuts thought that Greece would be well gone from the Euro over a year ago.

Maybe your right but the mood of this small country is changing I can see their being all out war in December if they make an shambles of the budget. There will be a further cut to PS pay /pensions in 2014 when the CPA has completed..in the mean time their will be an all out attack on getting allowances that the PS take in cut to shreds. The dole will also have to be cut even if only by a small % ... What I see in December is the following

Small cut to social maybe somewhere in the region of 2/3% (troika already making noises that social welfare is too generous) in the base rate aswell as cuts to OAP and childrens allowence and other areas you outlined..
Increase in Paye/USC therefore the feckers in gov can say they did not touch income tax.
PS pay left alone but all allowances will be up for grabs which could save somewhere in the ball park of 1billion.

As you rightly said there will be more in the way of other (stealth) taxes..Which IMO will bring about a big problem for the gov nearly 700k did not pay the property tax...When they increase it there will be a massive 2 fingered salute to them by ordanary hard working people....There will possible be a split in labour/FG in 2014 as the CPA is something that both parties have very differing opinions on... Judging by O'Reilly elephant in the room comment the battle lines have been drawn..IMO I cant blame the man..How can you make cuts to about 10% of your spend when the other 90%(give or take 5%) is protected under the CPA ..You cant its like asking a boxer to go into the ring with both arms tied behind his back.

Vizzy

Head The Wall wrote: »

Boo hoo, cry me a river. You may not realise it but emigrants hold the right to vote for 18 months after leaving the country so I am entitled to think whatever I want. If you have an issue with your life and situation in Ireland do something about it instead of directing your resentment toward people that were able to make changes to theirs.

By your logic all the people who make no financial contribution (people on the dole) shouldn't have an opinion either.

I have no issues with my life in Ireland
Nor have I any issue with anybody's rigth to vote for 18 months after they leave the country.
As previously stated my issue is with people who are first in line to advocate cutting pay here,services there and introducing new taxes all over the place,doing so whilst in a foreign country and making no contribution to the Irish economy. Do you not think that people on the dole make a financial contribution by spending every penny they earn/receive in the Irish economy)

Godge

fliball123 wrote: »

Maybe your right but the mood of this small country is changing I can see their being all out war in December if they make an shambles of the budget. There will be a further cut to PS pay /pensions in 2014 when the CPA has completed..in the mean time their will be an all out attack on getting allowances that the PS take in cut to shreds. The dole will also have to be cut even if only by a small % ... What I see in December is the following

Small cut to social maybe somewhere in the region of 2/3% (troika already making noises that social welfare is too generous) in the base rate aswell as cuts to OAP and childrens allowence and other areas you outlined..
Increase in Paye/USC therefore the feckers in gov can say they did not touch income tax.
PS pay left alone but all allowances will be up for grabs which could save somewhere in the ball park of 1billion.

As you rightly said there will be more in the way of other (stealth) taxes..Which IMO will bring about a big problem for the gov nearly 700k did not pay the property tax...When they increase it there will be a massive 2 fingered salute to them by ordanary hard working people....There will possible be a split in labour/FG in 2014 as the CPA is something that both parties have very differing opinions on... Judging by O'Reilly elephant in the room comment the battle lines have been drawn..IMO I cant blame the man..How can you make cuts to about 10% of your spend when the other 90%(give or take 5%) is protected under the CPA ..You cant its like asking a boxer to go into the ring with both arms tied behind his back.

All of that is not needed.

Look at the Exchequer returns.


http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2012/infonoteaug2012.pdf

At the moment we are ahead of target in meeting this year's deficit.

Next year, I think we have to find €3.1 bn.

Being ahead of target this year means that so long as it is not due to one-off factors, we could be €300m towards that already. On public service pay, there is an automatic saving of somewhere between €400 - €600m of a saving because we won't be paying out as many lump sums and we will see less numbers. The property tax is earmaked to bring in €500m.

Taking all of that into account, we are nearly halfway there, €300m on child benefit cut, €100m more on social welfare fraud, €200m on ancillary social welfare benefits, that first €2 bn should be achievable.

Granted, it will be hard to make up the next bit, that is where the hard decisions are made. But to ask a question, why would you cut public service pay of people less than say €80,000 when there are still over-70s who haven't handed back their medical card earning more than that? When money is wasted by the HSE on branded drugs? When health centres hand out Pampers nappies rather than Tesco brands? There are still lots of areas to make savings in without touching public service pay, just requires a few decisions.

itzme

fliball123 wrote: »

trying to make cuts when 80/90% of the money is off the table via the CPA..

fliball123 wrote: »

How can you make cuts to about 10% of your spend when the other 90%(give or take 5%) is protected under the CPA ..

Ok so 80/90% is protected by CPA, or 85-95% is protected by the CPA.
Can you clarify what you are saying is protected is it salaries and pensions that you are talking about?
Also a source showing the actual percentage of what you call "protected" would be handy?
There is a huge difference between 80% and 95%, in fact that difference would be enough to cover the deficit this year and next year. EDIT: and by this I mean deficit reduction targets, not the full deficit.

Welease

Godge wrote: »

Granted, it will be hard to make up the next bit, that is where the hard decisions are made. But to ask a question, why would you cut public service pay of people less than say €80,000 when there are still over-70s who haven't handed back their medical card earning more than that? When money is wasted by the HSE on branded drugs? When health centres hand out Pampers nappies rather than Tesco brands? There are still lots of areas to make savings in without touching public service pay, just requires a few decisions.

But isn't that part of the point (as per the HSE thread) and definately a major part of the annoyance... We wouldn't need to cut pay IF many of the obvious cost saving were implemented.. the branded drugs you mention, the waste of shipping single nappies to people via courier (although in fairness to the HSE I have never seen Pampers only Librero (sp?) brand nappies), departments burning up budgets with unnecessary work towards the end of the year etc etc etc..
But in the absense of common sense in those areas then those employees should feel the pain via the few remaining ways of saving costs (i.e. pay cuts).. but it is largely avoidable

Idbatterim

There will possible be a split in labour/FG in 2014 as the CPA is something that both parties have very differing opinions on... Judging by O'Reilly elephant in the room comment the battle lines have been drawn..IMO I cant blame the man..How can you make cuts to about 10% of your spend when the other 90%(give or take 5%) is protected under the CPA ..You cant its like asking a boxer to go into the ring with both arms tied behind his back.

lets hope it is billed as that (an election with the major point of debate the CPA), Labor will be done, get FG on on their own with a good majority and sort out the sham and waste once and for all... FG are IMO the best of a bad lot...

Head The Wall

Vizzy wrote: »

I have no issues with my life in Ireland
Nor have I any issue with anybody's rigth to vote for 18 months after they leave the country.
As previously stated my issue is with people who are first in line to advocate cutting pay here,services there and introducing new taxes all over the place,doing so whilst in a foreign country and making no contribution to the Irish economy. Do you not think that people on the dole make a financial contribution by spending every penny they earn/receive in the Irish economy)

Ah come on now, you are some spoofer. You don't have an issue with the fact that I still have a vote (you can't deny those facts) but you have an issue with me having an opinion on who or what to vote for. Maybe come vote time I should just go in and pin the tail on the donkey style, the whole problem with the electorate in Ireland is they don't give due and proper consideration when voting. This is how we end up with the likes of Lowry, Healy Rae's etc in the Dail and here you are then bemoaning the fact that Irish citizens and voters "form OPINIONS". My god what has the world come too.

How else is a voter supposed to decide who to vote on other than keeping themselves informed of whats happening in their home country which they hope to return to and which is still the home of their friends and family. I have contributed plenty to the Irish Economy and who is to say that the tax revenue I paid last year isn't being spent this year.


If you read the thread you will also notice that nowhere in this thread did I ask for pay or services to be cut or new taxes to be applied. More spoofing on your part

martian1980

Head The Wall wrote: »

If you read the thread you will also notice that nowhere in this thread did I ask for pay or services to be cut or new taxes to be applied. More spoofing on your part

a quick look at your post history shows you are looking for public pay to be cut all over the place. Trying to draw a line based on whether the comments are in in this thread or not is just spoofing

woodoo

fliball123 wrote: »

Being honest I think O'reilly has a thankless task..trying to make cuts when 80/90% of the money is off the table via the CPA..

So its 80/90% now? The tales are getting taller.

barneystinson

fliball123 wrote: »

Maybe your right but the mood of this small country is changing

In all fairness Australia is hardly a small country!

ncdadam

This is what happens when the tail starts wagging the dog.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/health-minister-reilly-shafted-cabinet-backs-croke-perks-3216960.html

Time for an election.

HellFireClub

ncdadam wrote: »

This is what happens when the tail starts wagging the dog.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/health-minister-reilly-shafted-cabinet-backs-croke-perks-3216960.html

Time for an election.

It's just unbelievable that a government minister can be paid a Christ only knows what salary to run a department, yet has no control over 80% of the budget of that same outfit.

No person with any self respect would allow themselves to remain in that position. This is the problem with our entire public sector, nobody is ultimately responsible for anything! What is Reilly ultimately responsible for, 20% of the budget allocated to his department???

If he had any self respect he'd put it back up to them and tell his boss to either let him run his department within budget using whatever means he deems appropriate in all of the circumstances, or else let someone else have a run at it and let them fail because it simply isn't possible.

There is no public support for a minority of public servants calling the shots on this, let them strike if they want, they will be admonished by the public who are suffering ten times more austerity than these parasites.

barneystinson

HellFireClub wrote: »

It's just unbelievable that a government minister can be paid a Christ only knows what salary to run a department, yet has no control over 80% of the budget of that same outfit.

Yawn. You should change your username to HyperboleClub... :rolleyes:
I'm not Christ, but about 30 seconds on Google tells me that the ministerial salary is €169,275. (http://www.thejournal.ie/no-pay-cut-taoiseach-tanaiste-brendan-howlin-francois-hollande-499140-Jun2012/) and yes I think that's too much, but I can say it nice and calmly without ranting and raving...

HellFireClub wrote: »

No person with any self respect would allow themselves to remain in that position. This is the problem with our entire public sector, nobody is ultimately responsible for anything! What is Reilly ultimately responsible for, 20% of the budget allocated to his department???
If he had any self respect he'd put it back up to them and tell his boss to either let him run his department within budget using whatever means he deems appropriate in all of the circumstances, or else let someone else have a run at it and let them fail because it simply isn't possible.

20% of the budget under the Health Minister's remit is still several billion...

HellFireClub wrote: »

There is no public support for a minority of public servants calling the shots on this, let them strike if they want, they will be admonished by the public who are suffering ten times more austerity than these parasites.

I don't see how you can say there is no public support (unless you have a link to something concrete?). And while your at it you might explain how you arrive at "the public" having suffered "ten times more austerity"? You do realise "the public" includes all public sector workers, and their families who depend on their incomes.

ardmacha

You might be able to say that one tenth of the public have suffered more than those working in the heaflth service. The rest have had a similar experience or a better experience in recent years.

Head The Wall

martian1980 wrote: »

a quick look at your post history shows you are looking for public pay to be cut all over the place. Trying to draw a line based on whether the comments are in in this thread or not is just spoofing

What are you, another member of the opinion police? Its about time you and some of the other posters got over their retarded idea that only people living in Ireland can have an opinion and say on it. To try and think otherwise which is what ye are claiming just makes ye look stupid, maybe we should tell all those guys in the EU and IMF to keep their noses out as they don't live in Ireland either.

nursextreme

barneystinson wrote: »

20% of the budget under the Health Minister's remit is still several billion...

Are you suggesting that Mr Reilly should focus on that 20% and that the unions will take care of the remainder. They seem to be taking pretty good care of the Billions so far :rolleyes: Or maybe we should assign another 4 Senior Ministers to the task to assist Dr Reilly with the wage budget.

barneystinson

nursextreme wrote: »

barneystinson wrote: »

20% of the budget under the Health Minister's remit is still several billion...

Are you suggesting that Mr Reilly should focus on that 20% and that the unions will take care of the remainder. They seem to be taking pretty good care of the Billions so far :rolleyes: Or maybe we should assign another 4 Senior Ministers to the task to assist Dr Reilly with the wage budget.

I'm not suggesting anything: If I was I'd have made it clear.
I'm pointing out a simple fact.

fliball123

Godge wrote: »

All of that is not needed.

Look at the Exchequer returns.


http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/exchequerstatements/2012/infonoteaug2012.pdf

At the moment we are ahead of target in meeting this year's deficit.

Next year, I think we have to find €3.1 bn.

Being ahead of target this year means that so long as it is not due to one-off factors, we could be €300m towards that already. On public service pay, there is an automatic saving of somewhere between €400 - €600m of a saving because we won't be paying out as many lump sums and we will see less numbers. The property tax is earmaked to bring in €500m.

Taking all of that into account, we are nearly halfway there, €300m on child benefit cut, €100m more on social welfare fraud, €200m on ancillary social welfare benefits, that first €2 bn should be achievable.

Granted, it will be hard to make up the next bit, that is where the hard decisions are made. But to ask a question, why would you cut public service pay of people less than say €80,000 when there are still over-70s who haven't handed back their medical card earning more than that? When money is wasted by the HSE on branded drugs? When health centres hand out Pampers nappies rather than Tesco brands? There are still lots of areas to make savings in without touching public service pay, just requires a few decisions.

But the public sector in the majority of areas are over paid..I am not saying hit the ps on the lower scale but anyone in the ps earning over 50k can do with a cut ...I agree with the medical card issue..but to think that we can keep taxing and cutting social welfare and leave PS Pay and perks at the high rate it is at is not exactly fair either.

fliball123

itzme wrote: »

Ok so 80/90% is protected by CPA, or 85-95% is protected by the CPA.
Can you clarify what you are saying is protected is it salaries and pensions that you are talking about?
Also a source showing the actual percentage of what you call "protected" would be handy?
There is a huge difference between 80% and 95%, in fact that difference would be enough to cover the deficit this year and next year. EDIT: and by this I mean deficit reduction targets, not the full deficit.

Well it differs and is ever changing the % goes up when increments come into play. It also goes up when services are being cut and it comes down when staff are cut in OT , there are other factors at play aswell... but the various differing ministers are saying between 80/90% of the money in health is spent on wages and pensions. and under the CPA until 2014 this is protected.... I dont think I can be any clearer than that

fliball123

Idbatterim wrote: »

lets hope it is billed as that (an election with the major point of debate the CPA), Labor will be done, get FG on on their own with a good majority and sort out the sham and waste once and for all... FG are IMO the best of a bad lot...

I agree not saying they are good but at least ministers like O'reilly and otheres are calling the CPA for what it is and the Labour lads have no where to run when asked the question..we need to make savings, you dont want pay cut thats 80/90% of the money the other 10 is on the service itself and you dont want that cut either...What to we do so?

fliball123

woodoo wrote: »

So its 80/90% now? The tales are getting taller.

its a fact that between 80/90% of money spent in health is for pay and pensions..If you have a different figure please present it. I think Reilly even said 70% but was unsure of the % after cuts to services and the increments

fliball123

barneystinson wrote: »

In all fairness Australia is hardly a small country!

Eh sorry but I am back in Ireland contract finished in oz last month...so back working here is that alright with you?

HellFireClub

barneystinson wrote: »

Yawn. You should change your username to HyperboleClub... :rolleyes:
I'm not Christ, but about 30 seconds on Google tells me that the ministerial salary is €169,275. (http://www.thejournal.ie/no-pay-cut-taoiseach-tanaiste-brendan-howlin-francois-hollande-499140-Jun2012/) and yes I think that's too much, but I can say it nice and calmly without ranting and raving...

20% of the budget under the Health Minister's remit is still several billion...


I don't see how you can say there is no public support (unless you have a link to something concrete?). And while your at it you might explain how you arrive at "the public" having suffered "ten times more austerity"? You do realise "the public" includes all public sector workers, and their families who depend on their incomes.

No, the private sector worker doesn't have a Croke Park Agreement to protect their income you see. The private sector worker isn't typically getting AUTOMATIC pay increments. The private sector worker has to worry about ending up on the dole, because the private sector worker doesn't have an arrangement with his employer where he can never be made redundant against his will. Based on all of the above facts, the vast majority of the public, who are not protected by the CPA, are rapidly running out of patience with the sheer greed of public sector workers who would rather see people in wheelchairs outside the Dail protesting against cuts to their support, than open their minds up to the possibility that they themselves are actually being paid too much!

It is outside the realms of possibility that any private sector business would be let approach a reform agenda, while stating openly and brazenly that they will not be touching pay, if you tried to even say that in the boardroom of a private sector firm that had to reform, you would be sent straight to the company psychiatrist.

The private sector worker is a complete stranger to the kind of insane arrangements that are still being accepted as normal industrial employment practices in the Irish public sector, such as:

(1) Automatic yearly pay increments, not tied to any personal performance analysis whatsoever.

(2) A set up where compulsory redundancy is simply not a phrase that exists in the vocabulary of the Irish public sector worker.

(3) The same point that has been made at (2) above, can be made in relation to dismissal for non ability to perform a role, meaning sheer incompetence or lack of interest in a job, even to a basic level, as in, dismissal from a position is not possible.

(4) A raft of absolutely ridiculous allowances, now considered to be "core pay". We have the extraordinary set up where teachers are paid twice in the summer, once as part of their contract and again for marking exam papers.

It is not hyperbole to call these things what they are, which is an insane set of arrangements that is bleeding taxpayers dry. We are borrowing 55 million Euro A DAY to pay for this sheer insanity.

If cutting PS pay is the right thing to do in a years time when the CPA expires, then it is the right thing to do now. We elected these bunch of plebs on a platform of reform where we were told there would be no more pandering to sacred cows and pandering to greed, while what we are now seeing is the maintaining of inefficient and useless systems of work.

There is no public support for this crap any longer, the man on the dole, the woman on the 3 day week, the vast majority of people in this country who do not have a seat at the "partnership" table, who work in the private sector, where everything has been cut down to the bare bone and they are still struggling to keep the door open, there is no toleration for this crap anymore, the stupid working arrangements, the ridiculous hierarchy of allowances and gravy, on top of what is already excess core pay, the failure, 3 years into a recession, to have any accountability in terms of pay increments, in relation to personal performance in the role, people are SICK SICK SICK of listening to the same mantra from the unions and the government, that none of this can be addressed, because some lad up in Liberty Hall says it can't be discussed, let alone touched.

fliball123

HellFireClub wrote: »

No, the private sector worker doesn't have a Croke Park Agreement to protect their income you see. The private sector worker isn't typically getting AUTOMATIC pay increments. The private sector worker has to worry about ending up on the dole, because the private sector worker doesn't have an arrangement with his employer where he can never be made redundant against his will. Based on all of the above facts, the vast majority of the public, who are not protected by the CPA, are rapidly running out of patience with the sheer greed of public sector workers who would rather see people in wheelchairs outside the Dail protesting against cuts to their support, than open their minds up to the possibility that they themselves are actually being paid too much!

It is outside the realms of possibility that any private sector business would be let approach a reform agenda, while stating openly and brazenly that they will not be touching pay, if you tried to even say that in the boardroom of a private sector firm that had to reform, you would be sent straight to the company psychiatrist.

The private sector worker is a complete stranger to the kind of insane arrangements that are still being accepted as normal industrial employment practices in the Irish public sector, such as:

(1) Automatic yearly pay increments, not tied to any personal performance analysis whatsoever.

(2) A set up where compulsory redundancy is simply not a phrase that exists in the vocabulary of the Irish public sector worker.

(3) The same point that has been made at (2) above, can be made in relation to dismissal for non ability to perform a role, meaning sheer incompetence or lack of interest in a job, even to a basic level, as in, dismissal from a position is not possible.

(4) A raft of absolutely ridiculous allowances, now considered to be "core pay". We have the extraordinary set up where teachers are paid twice in the summer, once as part of their contract and again for marking exam papers.

It is not hyperbole to call these things what they are, which is an insane set of arrangements that is bleeding taxpayers dry. We are borrowing 55 million Euro A DAY to pay for this sheer insanity.

If cutting PS pay is the right thing to do in a years time when the CPA expires, then it is the right thing to do now. We elected these bunch of plebs on a platform of reform where we were told there would be no more pandering to sacred cows and pandering to greed, while what we are now seeing is the maintaining of inefficient and useless systems of work.

There is no public support for this crap any longer, the man on the dole, the woman on the 3 day week, the vast majority of people in this country who do not have a seat at the "partnership" table, who work in the private sector, where everything has been cut down to the bare bone and they are still struggling to keep the door open, there is no toleration for this crap anymore, the stupid working arrangements, the ridiculous hierarchy of allowances and gravy, on top of what is already excess core pay, the failure, 3 years into a recession, to have any accountability in terms of pay increments, in relation to personal performance in the role, people are SICK SICK SICK of listening to the same mantra from the unions and the government, that none of this can be addressed, because some lad up in Liberty Hall says it can't be discussed, let alone touched.

While I agree with what you are saying..I think the CPA has to be let run its course...I think that allowances will be targeted in the next budget..Then in 2014 there will be a pay cut to PS pay and pensions..even a blind man can see this will happen..I would give you 100/1 odds that come the start of 2014 there will be a story floated that the PS pay and penisons are to high in this country just as they have for the dole here....If they stop the CPA the unions will bring the country to a standstill

ardmacha

the vast majority of the public, who are not protected by the CPA, are rapidly running out of patience with the sheer greed of public sector workers who would rather see people in wheelchairs outside the Dail protesting against cuts to their support, than open their minds up to the possibility that they themselves are actually being paid too much!

Odd then that the same set of people are not open to the possibility that they do not pay enough tax.

(1) Automatic yearly pay increments, not tied to any personal performance analysis whatsoever.

Performance analysis is (rightly) now almost universal

(2) A set up where compulsory redundancy is simply not a phrase that exists in the vocabulary of the Irish public sector worker.

Most of the public sector is education, health, Gardai etc do not have enough staff. So protection against redundancy costs nothing to provide as these people would not be redundant anyhow owing the stable and continuing demand for these services.

fliball123

ardmacha wrote: »

Odd then that the same set of people are not open to the possibility that they do not pay enough tax.




Performance analysis is (rightly) now almost universal



Most of the public sector is education, health, Gardai etc do not have enough staff. So protection against redundancy costs nothing to provide as these people would not be redundant anyhow owing the stable and continuing demand for these services.

We pay more than enough tax when stealth taxes and other non income related taxes are brought in ..this idea that we are a low tax country is incorrect and has been taken to task by various economists and proven we are in the higher bracket of countries within the OCED when all forms of taxation are taken into account.

McTigs

ardmacha wrote: »

Most of the public sector is education, health, Gardai etc do not have enough staff.

The HSE doesn't have enough staff? Please! I'm not saying the frontline aren't stretched but don't tell me there aren't enough staff employed in the health service.

There are more than enough Gardai, just too many behind desks doing jobs clerical officers could do for half the salary of a career cop in the Autumn of his service..... and not enough Gardai on the street being actual Gardai.

HellFireClub

ardmacha wrote: »

Performance analysis is (rightly) now almost universal

That actually means something in the private sector, where performance analysis is tied to a yearly pay increment, if you perform, you get the increment, if you don't perform, the pay increment is withheld, until you can get your act together, so don't letting on that the same is going on in the public sector when you know as well as I do, that the pay increment just comes automatically, regardless of what comes back by way of a performance review, making the whole analysis a completely pointless "for the file" type exercise!

This is just another example of file stuffing and a "for the file" type mentality within the PS, where there is no follow through and no ultimate pressure on people to perform and exceed the expectations that are placed on them within their role.

Dannyboy83

fliball123 wrote: »

We pay more than enough tax when stealth taxes and other non income related taxes are brought in ..this idea that we are a low tax country is incorrect and has been taken to task by various economists and proven we are in the higher bracket of countries within the OCED when all forms of taxation are taken into account.

Interesting comments on Coleman last night, when he spoke to Ronan Lyons.
Other countries have property taxes, as we will have, but they then scrapped their VRT/Stamp Duty etc.

We are going to end up with both!

Goodbye domestic economy/spending!

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

Performance analysis is (rightly) now almost universal

Although in some sections of the PS, the performance analysis is ineffective.

I remember this article form april

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0411/review-civil-service-performance-ratings-inflated.html

"The experts who drew up the scheme forecast that statistically around 10% would get the lowest rating and would thus not be entitled to an increment.

However, in 2010, less than half of 1% of civil servants were deemed unacceptable with the lowest rating."

HellFireClub

fliball123 wrote: »

While I agree with what you are saying..I think the CPA has to be let run its course...I think that allowances will be targeted in the next budget..Then in 2014 there will be a pay cut to PS pay and pensions..even a blind man can see this will happen..I would give you 100/1 odds that come the start of 2014 there will be a story floated that the PS pay and penisons are to high in this country just as they have for the dole here....If they stop the CPA the unions will bring the country to a standstill

Well here's how I see it. We are out of road now (certainly in relation to the Dept of Health) on what to cut, so the choice is simple:

(1) Either we stand by the CPA and we accept that it is fair and right that we continue protecting the pay of what are the highest paid public servants on earth, but that in order to maintain that policy position, we are prepared to take supports off disabled people and other vulnerable people such as the sick and the elderly, to support our policy position, OR...

(2) We decide to preserve the benefits and supports that we have given to vulnerable people such as disabled people, the sick and the elderly, we decide that we will not take any more off these people, and we tell the highest paid public servants on earth, that in order to continue preserving the supports that we give our vulnerable that we have to cut our PS pay bill immediately.

It appears to me that right now, before we even look at Budget 2013, that right now, it can be about (1) or (2), but it can't be about both...

Welease

HellFireClub wrote: »

Well here's how I see it. We are out of road now on what to cut, so the choice is simple:

(1) Either we stand by the CPA and we accept that it is fair and right that we continue protecting the pay of what are the highest paid public servants on earth, but that in order to maintain that policy position, we are prepared to take supports off disabled people and other vulnerable people such as the sick and the elderly, to support our policy position, OR...

(2) We decide to preserve the benefits and supports that we have given to vulnerable people such as disabled people, the sick and the elderly, we decide that we will not take any more off these people, and we tell the highest paid public servants on earth, that in order to continue preserving their pay, that we have to take supports off disabled, elderly and sick people.

It appears to me that right now, before we even look at Budget 2013, that right now, it can be about (1) or (2), but it can't be about both...

or (3) Identify and Cut Waste

Farmer Pudsey

ardmacha wrote: »

Odd then that the same set of people are not open to the possibility that they do not pay enough tax.




Performance analysis is (rightly) now almost universal



Most of the public sector is education, health, Gardai etc do not have enough staff. So protection against redundancy costs nothing to provide as these people would not be redundant anyhow owing the stable and continuing demand for these services.

Ardmacha the average wage in the Irish PS is about 930 euro's and a top notch pension. The average wage in the private sector is around 630 euros and about half have no pension except the state pension as they cannot afford it.

Most public servants are on about high paid private sectors in banks etc and there are and some of there wages are obscene however the level of wages accross the Irish PS is also obscene when you consider the cuts taking pace in the health Service etc.
Even if we raise taxes to the highest level in Europe this will not close the gap needed for next december Budget. Top level wages ( those earning over 50K) in the PS have to be seriously looked at and cut back. It is very unfair to see the government now recruiting young teachers that will be on about 60% of there peers if all the load was shared evenly we might get out of this but PS workers have been protected from wage/job cuts that been right accross the private sector.
When you see the plans to cut Homehelp/PA hours as these were one of the few areas available then you have to wonder about the two faces of the union leaders. Yes there is waste in the HSE however HSE employees and union should be highlighting it and insisting that it is abolished but it is too easy for these same managers to send nappies by courier to a client rather that finding a more efficient wad of doing things.

RobbieTheRobber

HellFireClub wrote: »

(1)the highest paid public servants on earth,
(2) the highest paid public servants on earth

Back up your stupid claims, there is no point in me making any comment on the rest of your stupid post when you so clearly begin with a fallacy and later continue the lies.

itzme

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Ardmacha the average wage in the Irish PS is about 930 euro's and a top notch pension. The average wage in the private sector is around 630 euros and about half have no pension except the state pension as they cannot afford it.

Most public servants are on about high paid private sectors in banks etc and there are and some of there wages are obscene however the level of wages accross the Irish PS is also obscene when you consider the cuts taking pace in the health Service etc.
Even if we raise taxes to the highest level in Europe this will not close the gap needed for next december Budget. Top level wages ( those earning over 50K) in the PS have to be seriously looked at and cut back. It is very unfair to see the government now recruiting young teachers that will be on about 60% of there peers if all the load was shared evenly we might get out of this but PS workers have been protected from wage/job cuts that been right accross the private sector.
When you see the plans to cut Homehelp/PA hours as these were one of the few areas available then you have to wonder about the two faces of the union leaders. Yes there is waste in the HSE however HSE employees and union should be highlighting it and insisting that it is abolished but it is too easy for these same managers to send nappies by courier to a client rather that finding a more efficient wad of doing things.

I am in favour of reviewing and where appropriate cutting wages in the public sector. I would be interested to see how much money you think can be saved in this way though. Since you say taxing won't close the deficit do you believe PS pay alone can? How many billion do you see being saved and what percentage wage cut would be required to save that?

RobbieTheRobber

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Ardmacha the average wage in the Irish PS is about 930 euro's and a top notch pension. The average wage in the private sector is around 630 euros and about half have no pension except the state pension as they cannot afford it.

Most public servants are on about high paid private sectors in banks etc and there are and some of there wages are obscene however the level of wages accross the Irish PS is also obscene when you consider the cuts taking pace in the health Service etc.
Even if we raise taxes to the highest level in Europe this will not close the gap needed for next december Budget. Top level wages ( those earning over 50K) in the PS have to be seriously looked at and cut back. It is very unfair to see the government now recruiting young teachers that will be on about 60% of there peers if all the load was shared evenly we might get out of this but PS workers have been protected from wage/job cuts that been right accross the private sector.
When you see the plans to cut Homehelp/PA hours as these were one of the few areas available then you have to wonder about the two faces of the union leaders. Yes there is waste in the HSE however HSE employees and union should be highlighting it and insisting that it is abolished but it is too easy for these same managers to send nappies by courier to a client rather that finding a more efficient wad of doing things.

Care to deal with the fact that on average the Public sector are better educated and have more experience at their jobs than the average private sector worker?

Does education and experience count for nothing?

itzme

fliball123 wrote: »

Well it differs and is ever changing the % goes up when increments come into play. It also goes up when services are being cut and it comes down when staff are cut in OT , there are other factors at play aswell... but the various differing ministers are saying between 80/90% of the money in health is spent on wages and pensions. and under the CPA until 2014 this is protected.... I dont think I can be any clearer than that

Eh.. I think it is quite easy to be clearer then that. Budget 2012
Please take a look at figure 1.b, now I could be wrong (someone please correct me if I am) but this seems to imply that 36% of the governments expenditure is on pay and pensions, that is quite a way from 80/90/95%.
Could you please point me in the direction of where you got this 80/90/95.... figure? Could you be taking the figure from the HSE and assuming that it translates across the whole PS?
EDIT:
Maybe I am misinterpreting you and you are only talking about health. Either way, could you provide a source showing even in 2012 or any year the relation between health spending and pay/pensions please.

Idbatterim

Back up your stupid claims, there is no point in me making any comment on the rest of your stupid post when you so clearly begin with a fallacy and later continue the lies.

who cares whether they are the highest or second highest etc, they are outrageous at the higher levels! I agree with protecting the most vulnerable, and as a section of society, the PS and CS are by far the least vulnerable, cuts from the top down to circa 35 or 40k!

fliball123

itzme wrote: »

Eh.. I think it is quite easy to be clearer then that. Budget 2012
Please take a look at figure 1.b, now I could be wrong (someone please correct me if I am) but this seems to imply that 36% of the governments expenditure is on pay and pensions, that is quite a way from 80/90/95%.
Could you please point me in the direction of where you got this 80/90/95.... figure? Could you be taking the figure from the HSE and assuming that it translates across the whole PS?
EDIT:
Maybe I am misinterpreting you and you are only talking about health. Either way, could you provide a source showing even in 2012 or any year the relation between health spending and pay/pensions please.

Sorry lets make it clear I said Health that also includes the dept of Health, It also includes a fair few quangos and it also includes pensions..but it is all paid for out of the health budget along with the HSE..The 80/90% is specifically for health I am sure I outlined this

alastair

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Interesting comments on Coleman last night, when he spoke to Ronan Lyons.
Other countries have property taxes, as we will have, but they then scrapped their VRT/Stamp Duty etc.

We are going to end up with both!

Goodbye domestic economy/spending!

There's lots of states that apply property taxation alongside VRT and stamp duty (Spain for one) - we'll not be alone!