Croke Park Agreement beyond 2014

itzme

Head The Wall wrote: »

Taking the so called qualifications and experience in the PS why in the UK do they pay their staff around 5% more than the average private sector worker but Ireland deems it necessary to pay public around 40% more here.

It would also be interesting to know what percentage of people in the PS actually need or use their qualifications for their jobs. Personally I know people with programming and software development qualifications who are now clerical officers. I expect that these type of qualifications would be included in the PS stats

The level of pay is a separate point to whether the PS have more qualifications and in jobs requiring more experience. The report linked to is quite clear on this, in particular

a higher proportion of public service workers have third-level qualifications (55 per cent compared to 32 per cent of private sector employees), are employed in Professional and Associate Professional occupations (51 per cent compared to 19 per cent of private sector workers) and have higher levels of experience.

So its not just that they have more qualifications but the jobs themselves require belong to the grouping which requires more qualifications.
There will be of course cases of people with qualifications not relevant to the job but I doubt you can disagree with the above.

Theboinkmaster

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Please please point out to me where I made such a claim?

When you cant I Suggest you do not attribute positions to me that I have not attached myself too.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

What is your position then?

HellFireClub

itzme wrote: »

I'm sorry to say HellFireClub but I don't really see a coherent point from you at the minute. You are jumping from one "fact" to another making it impossible to discuss things with you, it comes across to me that you are ranting.

Your original point was the PS here are the highest on earth.
You backed this up with (out of date) teacher salaries (without any link to other countries, to back up the "highest on earth" comment)
Then you said the teachers are highly overpaid.......
onto comments about the "general consensus" in the PS??

I would be happy to contribute to a discussion of a single point with you but this jumping around makes it impossible.

Oh it's a very simple point I'm making really, Irish PS salaries are obscene and the allowances are obscene, for a country that is in an IMF bailout program and for a country that is borrowing 55 million Euro a day just to keep the lights turned on.

I know of no other country where such a lack of accountability exists, in relation to the performance of individuals, I know of no other country where jobs like teaching, are remunerated as they are in this country. You obviously know of none either, otherwise you would be throwing up internet links here.

This is the whole problem with our public sector, we need a consultants report costing hundreds of thousands of Euro to gather reams and reams of data spanning across continents, for what most people know to be basic common sense.

We know that during the boom, we allowed benchmarking to bring PS salaries up to levels that were simply unsustainable, because our boom wasn't sustainable, as we now know, and as many of us knew back then.

How do we know? Because we now have teachers and public servants who are now up on 50K & 60K a year salaries, while someone with a comparable position in the private sector, is seriously struggling to get a 35K a year job. The market has looked after the private sector worker in terms of what he/she can now earn as a maximum, yet our PS is completely insulated from all of this?!? Yeah right I say...

fliball123

HellFireClub wrote: »

Oh it's a very simple point I'm making really, Irish PS salaries are obscene and the allowances are obscene, for a country that is in an IMF bailout program and for a country that is borrowing 55 million Euro a day just to keep the lights turned on.

I know of no other country where such a lack of accountability exists, in relation to the performance of individuals, I know of no other country where jobs like teaching, are remunerated as they are in this country. You obviously know of none either, otherwise you would be throwing up internet links here.

This is the whole problem with our public sector, we need a consultants report costing hundreds of thousands of Euro to gather reams and reams of data spanning across continents, for what most people know to be basic common sense.

We know that during the boom, we allowed benchmarking to bring PS salaries up to levels that were simply unsustainable, because our boom wasn't sustainable, as we now know, and as many of us knew back then.

How do we know? Because we now have teachers and public servants who are now up on 50K & 60K a year salaries, while someone with a comparable position in the private sector, is seriously struggling to get a 35K a year job. The market has looked after the private sector worker in terms of what he/she can now earn as a maximum, yet our PS is completely insulated from all of this?!? Yeah right I say...

You remind me of myself this time last year...Look there is pain coming down the line for all including PS workers...they have 18 months for their pay not being touched.T he gov reckon in that time they will be able to claw back about 1 billion on allowance and other perks...Let them do this...let the agreement run its course and then cut core pay and pensions......I mean the unions have shot themselves in the foot...How they can say its fair for new entrants to be on a lower rate than existing ones is crazy....They really dropped the ball and it is also splintering the PS out as well...It is insulated but the insulation will be taken away in 18months time..In the mean time we get some industrial peace and we are paying for that as well

Tea drinker

fliball123 wrote: »

the insulation will be taken away in 18months time..In the mean time we get some industrial peace and we are paying for that as well

Why wait till 18 months? There are provisions for revising CPA if economic factors worsened - they did, yet "we are where we are" again? 18 months wasted with absolutely ZERO guaruntees of reform. One of the longest periods of industrial peace is what got us in this mess.

Irish people have an awful lack of immediacy about them and inability to confront.

itzme

HellFireClub wrote: »

Oh it's a very simple point I'm making really, Irish PS salaries are obscene and the allowances are obscene, for a country that is in an IMF bailout program and for a country that is borrowing 55 million Euro a day just to keep the lights turned on.

I know of no other country where such a lack of accountability exists, in relation to the performance of individuals, I know of no other country where jobs like teaching, are remunerated as they are in this country. You obviously know of none either, otherwise you would be throwing up internet links here.

This is the whole problem with our public sector, we need a consultants report costing hundreds of thousands of Euro to gather reams and reams of data spanning across continents, for what most people know to be basic common sense.

We know that during the boom, we allowed benchmarking to bring PS salaries up to levels that were simply unsustainable, because our boom wasn't sustainable, as we now know, and as many of us knew back then.

How do we know? Because we now have teachers and public servants who are now up on 50K & 60K a year salaries, while someone with a comparable position in the private sector, is seriously struggling to get a 35K a year job. The market has looked after the private sector worker in terms of what he/she can now earn as a maximum, yet our PS is completely insulated from all of this?!? Yeah right I say...

There are many areas that require improvement in the PS, there are positions whose pay is above what it should be, there are a small number of cases where the pay is in my view crazy and a better system of accountability and assessment is required. This is what the CPA is there to help achieve.

Now your statements like "I know of no other country where jobs like teaching, are remunerated as they are in this country." and "Irish PS salaries are obscene" and so on just show the fact that you haven't gone looking for any data not that such data doesn't exist.

I have not provided links because it was not me that made the crazy claims about the "highest paid on earth" like you have. I would have expected you to prove your statements as everyone else on this forum is expected to. For instance, can you show me the "comparable position" in the private sector to teachers earning 50k or 60k? There are many private schools in Ireland, to me they are the most obvious comparison to teachers. Can you provide a link to the positions in these schools who get have a nearly 50% lower wage than their public school equivalents.

femur61

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Back up your stupid claims, there is no point in me making any comment on the rest of your stupid post when you so clearly begin with a fallacy and later continue the lies.

Public pay in OECD
http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance
.

NHS pay
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/

fliball123

Tea drinker wrote: »

Why wait till 18 months? There are provisions for revising CPA if economic factors worsened - they did, yet "we are where we are" again? 18 months wasted with absolutely ZERO guaruntees of reform. One of the longest periods of industrial peace is what got us in this mess.

Irish people have an awful lack of immediacy about them and inability to confront.

Well I agree with you but if they do that the Unions are going to shut the country down

itzme

femur61 wrote: »

Public pay in OECD
http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/public-sector-pay-at-a-glance
.

NHS pay
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/

You do realise that the first link that you provide is from the "Government at a Glance" report from 2011 which shows that PS pay in Ireland is not obscene (apart from consultants) when compared like for like with OECD countries and that with the 14% reduction in pay introduced since the report (it was from 2008 data) that our comparable pay levels would be quite close to average in most (not all) jobs.

Teachers salaries compared
Doctors and nurses (note consultants are vastly overpaid compared to OECD countries here, and is something I have said on boards before needs to be addressed)
Full report

Again just to be clear I am in favour or reducing PS pay in nearly all areas, but I am not one for calling for mass reductions like the 30% bridage ( I really don't know why that particular figure is so popular). Target the overpaid and then reduce the rest as it is required because of the state the country is in.

ncdadam

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

That would require a new benchmarking process and not your arbitrary judgement.

In a body of 300,000 can you be sure that no clerical workers are worth this wage?

Which is near the maximum for this type of worker and not the average!

Ah, remember benchmarking?
That got dropped fairly quick sharp when the downturn started.
Only useful when pay is rising, eh?

Then again, pay is still rising in the la-la land that is the PS!

later12

Tea drinker wrote: »

One of the longest periods of industrial peace is what got us in this mess.

Slightly short sighted and sweeping remark there, considering that collective bargaining and the wage restraint & industrial peace which ensued during the 1980s & early 90s was, in part, what made the Celtic Tiger in the first place.

Irish people have an awful lack of immediacy about them and inability to confront.

Not to make broad, sweeping generalisations or anything.

The state is meeting its targets for dealing with the official deficit, indeed if anything it is getting ahead of target. Although a lot of the low hanging fruit has been picked, I'd bide my time before dismissing the mental & practical faculties of the population altogether.

beeno67

itzme wrote: »

Your original point was the PS here are the highest on earth.
You backed this up with (out of date) teacher salaries (without any link to other countries, to back up the "highest on earth" comment)
Then you said the teachers are highly overpaid.......
onto comments about the "general consensus" in the PS??
.

http://www.oecd.org/edu/highereducationandadultlearning/48631286.pdf

Not quite highest. Third highest. Although these figures don't take into account the extra pay for having honours degree (what idiot doesn't) or other higher qualification.

deise blue

beeno67 wrote: »

http://www.oecd.org/edu/highereducationandadultlearning/48631286.pdf

Not quite highest. Third highest. Although these figures don't take into account the extra pay for having honours degree (what idiot doesn't) or other higher qualification.

Comprehensive overview on salaries but totally out of date.

The salary cuts introduced in December 2009's budget are not included - nor I would warrant is the pension levy/pay reduction.

ncdadam

beeno67 wrote: »

http://www.oecd.org/edu/highereducationandadultlearning/48631286.pdf

Not quite highest. Third highest. Although these figures don't take into account the extra pay for having honours degree (what idiot doesn't) or other higher qualification.

Why would anyone get paid extra for being over-qualified for the job their being asked to do?

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

you have posted on a number of those pages yet not once have you requested obvious lies to be verified. Yet you attack me over my claims, Hmmmmmmmm!

I use your very own words to place on you the same standards that you hold other posters to and yet you consider that an attack. Hmmmm!

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So you accept my source and if no one else does I expect you will request verfication from obviously misleading posts in this thread, on pages that you do read of course.

Just so I know what your expectations are, do you consider the below statement obviously misleading?

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So 20 pages of lies about public servants

martian1980

Head The Wall wrote: »

What are you, another member of the opinion police? Its about time you and some of the other posters got over their retarded idea that only people living in Ireland can have an opinion and say on it. To try and think otherwise which is what ye are claiming just makes ye look stupid, maybe we should tell all those guys in the EU and IMF to keep their noses out as they don't live in Ireland either.

I was calling you on a bullsh*t claim that you made, and you're coming back with yet more bluster. The difference between you and the IMF/EU people is that they are putting money into the country and you're not.

woodoo

fliball123 wrote: »

While I agree with what you are saying..I think the CPA has to be let run its course...I think that allowances will be targeted in the next budget..Then in 2014 there will be a pay cut to PS pay and pensions..even a blind man can see this will happen..I would give you 100/1 odds that come the start of 2014 there will be a story floated that the PS pay and penisons are to high in this country just as they have for the dole here....If they stop the CPA the unions will bring the country to a standstill

I would tend to agree with you here fliball. I think the croke park will be let run its course. But its pretty likely that pay will be cut again in 2014.

Welease

woodoo wrote: »

I would tend to agree with you here fliball. I think the croke park will be let run its course. But its pretty likely that pay will be cut again in 2014.

I would hope that in the interim those who can collectively influence behaviour would seek to minimise waste and wasteful process, so that an honest effort could be made to minimise (or eradicate) any required pay cuts..

Sadly that rarely seems to be on the agenda..

beeno67

deise blue wrote: »

beeno67 wrote: »

http://www.oecd.org/edu/highereducationandadultlearning/48631286.pdf

Not quite highest. Third highest. Although these figures don't take into account the extra pay for having honours degree (what idiot doesn't) or other higher qualification.

Comprehensive overview on salaries but totally out of date.

The salary cuts introduced in December 2009's budget are not included - nor I would warrant is the pension levy/pay reduction.

Well do the maths yourself. The cuts in 2009 budget will reduce the pay by 6.25%. Hardly makes a massive difference. Pay is still 40-50% higher than OECD average. Figures are latest available from 2011 OECD report

The figures don't take into account the excellent pensions Irish teachers get, that is true but then they don't take into account pension provision for other countries either.

ardmacha

But its pretty likely that pay will be cut again in 2014.

I wouldn't have thought so. With price inflation having return, real salaries will have been cut by 7% or so by then, on top of the two previous 7% nominal cuts. Further reductions would not be warranted in most cases.

woodoo

Tea drinker wrote: »

Why wait till 18 months? There are provisions for revising CPA if economic factors worsened - they did, yet "we are where we are" again? 18 months wasted with absolutely ZERO guaruntees of reform. One of the longest periods of industrial peace is what got us in this mess.

Irish people have an awful lack of immediacy about them and inability to confront.

Good God tea drinker have you learned nothing reading and posting in threads like this?

woodoo

ardmacha wrote: »

I wouldn't have thought so. With price inflation having return, real salaries will have been cut by 7% or so by then, on top of the two previous 7% nominal cuts. Further reductions would not be warranted in most cases.

I hope they won't be cut for all. But they really will have to tidy up some of the allowances being paid out.

RobbieTheRobber

ncdadam wrote: »

Ah, remember benchmarking?
That got dropped fairly quick sharp when the downturn started.
Only useful when pay is rising, eh?

Then again, pay is still rising in the la-la land that is the PS!

Sorry what is it your trying to say?

sarumite

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So you still cant admit you were wrong to contest my statement that public servants are better educated and have more experience than the average private sector worker.

I never contested it, I merely looked for verification of what you were saying. It is a pretty common occurrence on boards to see poster being requested to supply a source for their infromation (I could be wrong, but I believe there is actually something about it in the forum charter).

K-9

martian1980 wrote: »

I was calling you on a bullsh*t claim that you made, and you're coming back with yet more bluster. The difference between you and the IMF/EU people is that they are putting money into the country and you're not.

There was a mod warning to cut out personal stuff after that, leave any personal squabbles at the door. Last warning on it.

Somebody living abroad is perfectly entitled to give an opinion, it's valid and there isn't a ranking system on boards based on what taxes a person pays or doesn't.

RobbieTheRobber

sarumite wrote: »

I use your very own words to place on you the same standards that you hold other posters to and yet you consider that an attack. Hmmmm!

You use my words to contest a verifiable statement i made yet at no other point in this thread have you suggested other clearly questionable statements made by other posters be verified.
The only reason i can assume one would want me to verify my statement yet not asked others is because you are biased to one side and so do not mind when they lie.

sarumite wrote: »

Just so I know what your expectations are, do you consider the below statement obviously misleading?

I call it a mild exaggeration, perhaps not every word on every page is a lie but every page has a lie or many.
So 20 pages of lies was a quicker and easier way to get this point across.

Will you next ask me to show every lie on this now 25 pages of a thread?

Do you also now accept the veracity of my statement that public servants are better educated and have more experience than the average private sector worker?

Would you not agree that higher education and more experience in general goes hand in hand with higher earnings?

deise blue

beeno67 wrote: »

Well do the maths yourself. The cuts in 2009 budget will reduce the pay by 6.25%. Hardly makes a massive difference. Pay is still 40-50% higher than OECD average. Figures are latest available from 2011 OECD report

The figures don't take into account the excellent pensions Irish teachers get, that is true but then they don't take into account pension provision for other countries either.

It would appear that Ireland has fallen significantly interms of OECD salaries bearing in mind the pay reductions allied to the pay freeze since this data was published- rapidly approaching the OECD average perhaps ?

ncdadam

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Sorry what is it your trying to say?

Do you think it's right that the average PS weekly wage is €300 more than the same worker in the private sector?

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fnational-news%2Fpublic-workers-pay-300-ahead-of-private-sector-3214933.html&ei=zMBHUP7lHZCXhQfm24HIDw&usg=AFQjCNExUIFdDRp-VL9JwzHCKNJJlFqLqg&sig2=d4SEv9HX7PF8g8HxjphqLw

Wasn't it benchmarked during the 'tiger' years?
Why not now?

RobbieTheRobber

ncdadam wrote: »

Do you think it's right that the average PS weekly wage is €300 more than the same worker in the private sector?

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fnational-news%2Fpublic-workers-pay-300-ahead-of-private-sector-3214933.html&ei=zMBHUP7lHZCXhQfm24HIDw&usg=AFQjCNExUIFdDRp-VL9JwzHCKNJJlFqLqg&sig2=d4SEv9HX7PF8g8HxjphqLw

Wasn't it benchmarked during the 'tiger' years?
Why not now?

Sorry I really cant answer your question until you can tell me what this average public sector is and what position the "same" private sector worker is employed in.

Do you understand how benchmarking works?
I would be no expert but I would assume it requires more thought than inventing some vague notion of an average worker, would you not?

ncdadam

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Sorry I really cant answer your question until you can tell me what this average public sector is and what position the "same" private sector worker is employed in.

Do you understand how benchmarking works?
I would be no expert but I would assume it requires more thought than inventing some vague notion of an average worker, would you not?

I would have thought that it works a bit like this.
1. Take a certain position in the workforce.
2. Find the average wage for this position in the private sector.
3. Set wage for the same position in the PS at the private sector average.

In Ireland we do the first two things and then set the PS wage at 50% more than the average.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBenchmarking&ei=-MNHUILwF5GYhQe5qIH4Bg&usg=AFQjCNF53su6WGx1Vk_THfzpqy4xwybnFw&sig2=g9QahhGETa2ewq-jcUvexg

Farmer Pudsey

itzme wrote: »

I am in favour of reviewing and where appropriate cutting wages in the public sector. I would be interested to see how much money you think can be saved in this way though. Since you say taxing won't close the deficit do you believe PS pay alone can? How many billion do you see being saved and what percentage wage cut would be required to save that?

I will use a back of the envelope calculation there are 295,000 PS's in Ireland the average wage is 930/week= 48500.
From this the Public service pay bill is about 14.4 billion.
The average PS has a wage that is over 45% higher than the average private sector worker if we use the private sector worker as the base and over 30% if we use the PS wage as a base. We are not taking the value of the PS's pension into account, I will deal with that after wards.

If we opted for an average 20% cut this would equate to a reduction in the PS pay bill by about 2.88 billion. Now the argument is always that half of this is by way of tax so a net saving of about 1.44 billion.

This would also have achieve longterm savings in the PS pension bill which is unfundable longterm. Also pensions over 50K could be cut by the same on average achieving savings in the hundreds of millions.

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Care to deal with the fact that on average the Public sector are better educated and have more experience at their jobs than the average private sector worker?

Does education and experience count for nothing?

This is a slur on the people who produce the product that pays PS wages. This is the type of elitism that the public service carry on with. Formal Education is not everything Ray McSharry a former Minster for Finance left school at thirteen. Could many PS's build a company like Ryanair like Micheal O'Leary has history of Aerlingus and the DAA tells us no. And yes there are failures but there are loads of failures in the PS as well. I knew some right thicko that joined the PS and I know alot of PS' that would not survive in the private sector. However I also know some fine PS workers but the slur you cast is indefencible

RobbieTheRobber

ncdadam wrote: »

I would have thought that it works a bit like this.
1. Take a certain position in the workforce.
2. Find the average wage for this position in the private sector.
3. Set wage for the same position in the PS at the private sector average.

In Ireland we do the first two things and then set the PS wage at 50% more than the average.

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBenchmarking&ei=-MNHUILwF5GYhQe5qIH4Bg&usg=AFQjCNF53su6WGx1Vk_THfzpqy4xwybnFw&sig2=g9QahhGETa2ewq-jcUvexg

Really a wikipedia page!

I am quite aware of the basics of benchmarking.:rolleyes:

The last time I phrased it as a statement my mistake would you care to answer my questions, because to answer your original question I need to know;
What function does the average public sector worker perform?
Is the average a nurse - a clerical officer - prison warden- fireman - soldier - teacher - doctor. What is this average?
And
What position is it the "same" private sector worker is employed in?

woodoo

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If we opted for an average 20% cut this would equate to a reduction in the PS pay bill by about 2.88 billion. Now the argument is always that half of this is by way of tax so a net saving of about 1.44 billion.

Maybe that is why the government aren't in a rush to cut the pay of public servants. And its also the perfect illustration of why cutting PS pay is not the answer to our problems.

There would be mayhem and uproar if PS pay was cut by 20% especially after the pension levy and the 2010 cut. All that for 1.44billion. Not going to be done for that sort of saving.

Farmer Pudsey

woodoo wrote: »

Maybe that is why the government aren't in a rush to cut the pay of public servants. And its also the perfect illustration of why cutting PS pay is not the answer to our problems.

There would be mayhem and uproar if PS pay was cut by 20% especially after the pension levy and the 2010 cut. All that for 1.44billion. Not going to be done for that sort of saving.

I disagree as we have to start somewhere after this we could look at the semi state sector Dublin Bus/Bus Eireainn/Irish rail if the wages was reduced here we could also save in the subvention to these companies. The average wage in the ESB is over 70K and the average wage in Board Gais is higher. We have (I think) nearly 800 Quango's. The reality is that unless the government changes tack the sector that produces product for export in Ireland will collapse.

K-9

Just some numbers to chew over:

trends-in-public-sector-numbers/, 2014 troika public sector numbers may have already reached target.

Significant savings on pay have been realised and more are expected with no reason to suspect these will not be delivered.

public sector pay

barneystinson

ncdadam wrote: »

Do you think it's right that the average PS weekly wage is €300 more than the same worker in the private sector?

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fnational-news%2Fpublic-workers-pay-300-ahead-of-private-sector-3214933.html&ei=zMBHUP7lHZCXhQfm24HIDw&usg=AFQjCNExUIFdDRp-VL9JwzHCKNJJlFqLqg&sig2=d4SEv9HX7PF8g8HxjphqLw

Wasn't it benchmarked during the 'tiger' years?
Why not now?

Have you actually read all of that article you linked?

I note you've cherrypicked headline information to suit your agenda, but what about the following:

"The CSO figures also show that the bigger the employer, the more workers earned. Workers in a company with fewer than 50 employees had average weekly earnings of €532.

This rose to €634 in enterprises with 50 to 250 employees and increased to €820 for firms with more than 250 employees.

According to the last CSO index, the jobs embargo across the public sector continues to bite, with numbers employed falling by almost 26,000 in the past year.
There are 380,800 people working in the public sector, down by 6.3pc over the year to June."

What that report tells me is that the pay gap between public sector employees and their counterparts in large private sector entities is much less than this oft-quoted meaningless headline "average".

I am in a managerial grade, which requires an Honours Degree and/or professional accountancy/solicitor qualification, and am still several increments away from the "average" pay... I could walk out of the PS and into a 15-20% better paying job in the private sector, either here or abroad, but I actually like the job I do, and am happy to trade off immediate financial reward for job satisfaction, security, more annual leave, flexi-time and a defined benefit pension.

My point is, everything isn't black and white

coolshannagh28

Judging by the level of vitriol displayed here and by the mind games in the government at the minute over the CPA ,I can see a day of reckoning coming soon where something will have to give . Public opinion is against the CPA and FIne Gael backbenchers are raising hell about it ,Labour will not be able to hold the line .
Government strategy was based on a world recovery allowing us to export our way out of trouble and maintain the status quo with regard to CPA,however the growth has not materialised and we are stuck with cutting services in order to make the numbers add up, when we should be cutting wages and pensions and making the genuine structural reforms which are 5 years overdue . The game is up and soon we will see hard decisions made or imposed .

barneystinson

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Public opinion is against the CPA

Source?

coolshannagh28

barneystinson wrote: »

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Public opinion is against the CPA

Source?

Sunday independent

ncdadam

barneystinson wrote: »

Have you actually read all of that article you linked?

I note you've cherrypicked headline information to suit your agenda, but what about the following:

"The CSO figures also show that the bigger the employer, the more workers earned. Workers in a company with fewer than 50 employees had average weekly earnings of €532.

This rose to €634 in enterprises with 50 to 250 employees and increased to €820 for firms with more than 250 employees.

According to the last CSO index, the jobs embargo across the public sector continues to bite, with numbers employed falling by almost 26,000 in the past year.
There are 380,800 people working in the public sector, down by 6.3pc over the year to June."

What that report tells me is that the pay gap between public sector employees and their counterparts in large private sector entities is much less than this oft-quoted meaningless headline "average".

I am in a managerial grade, which requires an Honours Degree and/or professional accountancy/solicitor qualification, and am still several increments away from the "average" pay... I could walk out of the PS and into a 15-20% better paying job in the private sector, either here or abroad, but I actually like the job I do, and am happy to trade off immediate financial reward for job satisfaction, security, more annual leave, flexi-time and a defined benefit pension.

My point is, everything isn't black and white

I agree with you and I'm not proposing cutting the pay anymore of people earning less than €50k or so.
I think what the general public want to see is a serious cut in the pay and pensions of the people above this figure.
There is a perception that too many PS workers are on the 'gravy train' and at a time of deep cuts and more taxation, to see the PS still insisting on pay rises (increments) is galling to many.
The cutting needs to start from the top down.
We all have a stake in this country and its problems.

Farmer Pudsey

[QUOTE=barneystinson;
I am in a managerial grade, which requires an Honours Degree and/or professional accountancy/solicitor qualification, and am still several increments away from the "average" pay... I could walk out of the PS and into a 15-20% better paying job in the private sector, either here or abroad, but I actually like the job I do, and am happy to trade off immediate financial reward for job satisfaction, security, more annual leave, flexi-time and a defined benefit pension.
[/QUOTE]

This is what I dislike about comparrisons between PS,s and private sector workers the reality is that you think that you wolud get paid better in the private sector but the reality is that you may have to work longer hours and lose a gold plated pension. Also when you get to the top of the payscale will you be above private sector wages.

barneystinson

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Sunday independent

Hmmmm a poll of 500 homes - is that a representative sample I wonder?

And since you couldn't be bothered to link to your source, I will (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/poll-finds-public-want-croke-park-revisited-3216963.html):
"The question was: "Property tax, water charges, PRSI increases, health cuts and cuts in social welfare are all on the agenda because pay in the public sector cannot be touched. Should the question of cutting public pay be revisited, despite the Croke Park Agreement?"

Hardly a loaded question...

Having said all that, it's probably fair to say a majority of people would like to revisit PS pay. But a majority of that majority will be the ones whining the loudest when industrial relations problems arise.

woodoo

K-9 wrote: »

Significant savings on pay have been realised and more are expected with no reason to suspect these will not be delivered.

public sector pay

Some interestig figures there. He is dead right though about that guy writing for the Indo. His figures are a mess. Heavily doctored to present the PS is as bad a light as possible.

barneystinson

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is what I dislike about comparrisons between PS,s and private sector workers the reality is that you think that you wolud get paid better in the private sector but the reality is that you may have to work longer hours and lose a gold plated pension. Also when you get to the top of the payscale will you be above private sector wages.

I've spent13 of the last 15 years working in the private sector, and that's where I obtained my professional qualifications,and I KNOW that I left my private sector job and took a nearly 20% cut in my net pay to join the civil service. I also know the range of salary I'd get if I moved back to private sector, and it's as I said. I appreciate that's not the case across all jobs in the PS, hence I said not everything is black & white.

I'd hope to be promoted before I reach the top of the scale, but anyone worth their salt in my profession that many years after qualification would be on the same or more. Ironically, in my case public sector experience broadens the CV and would if anything result in greater earning potential on a move back to the private sector...

Farmer Pudsey

barneystinson wrote: »

I've spent13 of the last 15 years working in the private sector, and that's where I obtained my professional qualifications,and I KNOW that I left my private sector job and took a nearly 20% cut in my net pay to join the civil service. I also know the range of salary I'd get if I moved back to private sector, and it's as I said. I appreciate that's not the case across all jobs in the PS, hence I said not everything is black & white.

I'd hope to be promoted before I reach the top of the scale, but anyone worth their salt in my profession that many years after qualification would be on the same or more. Ironically, in my case public sector experience broadens the CV and would if anything result in greater earning potential on a move back to the private sector...

Then head back in a couple of years time and earn more

kippy

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Then head back in a couple of years time and earn more

He's not complaining, just trying to outline some considerations and highlight some fallacies that exist in this debate.

barneystinson

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Then head back in a couple of years time and earn more

Typical farmer, all about the money... :rolleyes:

Farmer Pudsey

kippy wrote: »

He's not complaining, just trying to outline some considerations and highlight some fallacies that exist in this debate.

I am also highlighting a fact very few PS workers would move to work in the private sector because of the longer hours involved, most jobs are lower paid, less holidays, preformance related work and of course the public sector pension especially if you are on above average wages.

Most PS have the option of retiring at 60 and some can retire before that. Pension is calculated on final pay as is the lump sum.

n97 mini

barneystinson wrote: »

Ironically, in my case public sector experience broadens the CV

Does looking up details of taxpayers from registration numbers of cars they have on adverts.ie broaden the CV into the realm of private investigators or something?

ardmacha

Most PS have the option of retiring at 60

Anybody can retire when they like, they just get less pension!