Shane Long or Trapattoni?

LuckyLloyd

Xavi6 wrote: »

Happy with mediocrity, unhappy players and crap football. Good for you, some of us want more from the international side.

Congrats on the win though because that's really what matters here. And if there's no point in whining then maybe take your own advise on board when it comes to transfer fees paid by your club for English players. You've done plenty of that lately.

Transfer policy of a club: fluid, changeable, influenced by recent trends
Trapp situation: rigid, inflexible, narrative determined ahead of time

Royal Legend

thebaz wrote: »

obviously staunton was out of his depth, but I find it hard to warm to the style of conservative football encouraged by Trap - yes , win , yes we don't have the players - but then again, whats this about

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0817/1224322324340.html

I think a lot is lost in translation, plus the media are baying for him to say something that they can turn against him, (a bit like the english press and the stupid foreigner, what does he know routine)
His choice of word, Idiota, is his only mistake. That he would not play someone who was supposed to have a muscle injury, I think he is correct in stating this.
As for Shane, I would be fairly unhappy having to play second fiddle to Robbie Keane for the last few games, as it is apparent that Keane is over the hill and finished as a top class player

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Trapp will be our manager through the end of our participation in the 2014 WC irrespective of what happens on the pitch. Keep whining like it will make a difference. I'm happy with that outcome which means - I get to win here.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Transfer policy of a club: fluid, changeable, influenced by recent trends
Trapp situation: rigid, inflexible, narrative determined ahead of time

If it was really true that you don't care what people say about Trap then you wouldn't be arguing on these threads about his performance.

You are just pretending that the FAI's future actions are already cast in stone and that nothing else matters now because the argument that Trap is doing a good job is getting more ludicrous by the day.

Even if it were true that the FAI would not sack Trap no matter how badly he manages the team, that wouldn't invalidate the criticisms of him. Pointing out the harm he is doing to the team is a worthwhile discussion in itself, regardless of whether or not the FAI will do anything about him.

LuckyLloyd

Pro. F wrote: »

If it was really true that you don't care what people say about Trap then you wouldn't be arguing on these threads about his performance.

You are just pretending that the FAI's future actions are already cast in stone and that nothing else matters now because the argument that Trap is doing a good job is getting more ludicrous by the day.

Even if it were true that the FAI would not sack Trap no matter how badly he manages the team, that wouldn't invalidate the criticisms of him. Pointing out the harm he is doing to the team is a worthwhile discussion in itself, regardless of whether or not the FAI will do anything about him.

I'm not defending his performance anymore, that's the point. I don't have to - his results speak for themselves and he's in till the end of this campaign upon which stage he will retire.

I just drop by to note my amusement at how mad he makes you all when he's the first Irish manager to deliver major tournament participation in 10 years. It's utterly comical.

What further makes the whole thing hilarious is that actual professional coaches I know have bucket loads of respect for what he has done - there is a media frenzy being whipped up here that is quite bizarre. But anyway, carry on. I'm looking forward to Kazakhstan myself.

Francie Barrett

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

his results speak for themselves

He has a worse record than Charlton, Mccarthy and Kerr. At best I would describe his record as being mediocre. I am not even upset about the record though. What annoys is me how Trap has marked our team by being rigid and not willing to try and play. In the Euro's, even defensive teams like Greece got the ball down and passed it. Ireland on the otherhand hoofed it and the opposition anticipated us completely. I don't expect tika taka, but i do expect much more than English Sunday league tactics.

Trap should be sacked before he does anymore damage to the national team.

ebbsy

Shane Long is another Stephen Ireland.

And Ive stopped watching us play - I want to stab my eyes out.

LuckyLloyd

Francie Barrett wrote: »

He has a worse record than Charlton, Mccarthy and Kerr.

Got in the big dance though, that's what counts.

clubberlang12

I previously stated that one of my main gripes with Trap was his man-management of players. If this was an isolated incident i would be backing the manager in this debacle, but this is just another incident in what is becoming an alarming number of "mis-communications" with squad members. It has been an under-lying issue through out his tenure. Forget about the language barrier excuse because there is enough translators in the squad to convey simple messages between player and manager. And the fact he is still waiting on Robbie to reply to his text message. Get the f$%k out of here will ya. This isn't the 1920's. "3Mobile" are a bloody team sponsor. Surely they can sort out a cheap rate international call. Robbie is the current captain of the team for Christ's sake. This really is becoming a joke at this stage.

SlipperyPeople

ebbsy wrote: »

Shane Long is another Stephen Ireland.

And Ive stopped watching us play - I want to stab my eyes out.

how is shane long another Stephen Ireland?

last time i checked Shane Long wanted to play for his country

Nailz

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Long pick up a knock before the Serbia game? I'm sure if he was fit he would've been starting, I don't think Trap is trying to alienate anyone, he's just a stubborn old codger when it comes to his principles. The team selection was a step forward somewhat. I'm a massive fan of Westwood, and if Given has permanently lost ground on his reaction speed, as he appeared to have done at the Euros I would like to see Westwood being the first choice goalie. It was good seeing Kelly and O'Brien playing out as corner backs, O'Shea should always be playing centre back with Dunne, its the best partnership in that part of the field that Ireland has, so we might aswell make use of it, nothing against St. Ledger.

One thing I'd like to see less of is the constant starting of Glenn Whelan, then when replacing him, Trap brings on Paul fucking Green. Considering the fact the Darron Gibson actually plays for Everton and is improving as he does so I would prefer see him play. Although my ideal CM would be Fahey and McCarthy. I think Robbie Keane chould make a good midfielder, he doesn't have the pace to be a striker any more. Long and Doyle up top is what I would like to see as well, but Cox made a very good case for himself against the Serbs... I just really hope that Gio doesn't stick to that same old systematic crap of playing that same 11 players that he has done for the last 4 years.

Systems are great, I study them at University (although not of the footballing variety), but they are useless if you don't use the right system and its components are of a below par quality. Out with the old system and in with the new.

flyswatter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Francie Barrett wrote: »

He has a worse record than Charlton, Mccarthy and Kerr.

Got in the big dance though, that's what counts.

And were promptly shown up for what they were.

TheDoc

Sigh,

I'm beyond the point of understanding how people back Trap, and this is WAY before the Euros.The signs are all there, his man management skills are absolutely terrible. There is too much press and media attention and quotes of discontent, arguements, alienation and poor communication.

I sent a text to Robbie, I'm waiting on him to text me back

This is the countries top goalscorer and captain, and while I'm not a fan of his, he deserves at the LEAST a phonecall, if not an in person visit.

I was never keen on his appointment and time after time I'm just constantly being proved right that it was a poor decision, and this just adds up. Not buying him getting us qualification as an excuse either.

Cannot wait to see the back of him.

In regards to LuckyLloyd, I can see where he is coming from. But it is also just as dangerous to over glorify success. I'm sorry, but it was very achievable to qualify from our group, and I'm sure other candidates could have achieved it, but that's wild speculation.

I simply don't accept that for the money being paid what we got in return was " Organisation, structure and discipline " which is the games biggest con statement which reads " the manager has done nothing really".

I don't get upset as much as people around here do. The simple fact is I started drifting away from Irish football the day Roy Keane was allowed wear an Irish shirt after walking out. But when they signed Trappatoni that compounded my dis-interest, as it was obvious what type of football we would be playing, and I havn't been proved wrong.

So I just don't get upset, because simply put I don't have any desire, passion or pride to provide the national team. And while I'm not foaming at the mouth over the constant negative Trap exposures time and time again, I just recognise that this shouldnt be news for anyone, it was blatantly obvious from very early on. I had no problem declaring my expectations for the Euros. 3 losses with no goals scored, was nearly right....

He won't go down as one of the worst managers, but he wont be regarded as one of the best.

What is needed is a long term vision, with a view to restructure and proper organisation and development at national training centres to focus on technique and ability, which is required at international level to which we are void off, not strength, power and pace which is very much exposed as being redundant in recent years.

But again, none of this is new. This has been touted by every intelligent football analyst that has ever given an opinion on the Irish game. But we need a quick buck, we need the glamour, we need our little trophies telling us what great fans we are.

Happy trails for the world cup campaign, I won't be watching anyway.

LuckyLloyd

flyswatter wrote: »

And were promptly shown up for what they were.

In a group containing the two finalists, where our most dominant victors delivered a similar hiding while winning the trophy.

Keep believing that a 4 - 5 - 1 with Hoolahan, Wilson and whatever other flavour of the months would have been the difference.

TheDoc

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

In a group containing the two finalists, where our most dominant victors delivered a similar hiding while winning the trophy.

Keep believing that a 4 - 5 - 1 with Hoolahan, Wilson and whatever other flavour of the months would have been the difference.

Reason to be more optimistic then knowing how hammered we would be, looking at the squad picked...

carlop

What I find funny is that the day after Trap plays a team including McCarthy, McClean, Walters, Kelly and Coleman, and after attempting to include Wilson, Hoolahan and Pilkington, people are having a go at him more than ever.

If I go back to a match thread from the qualifiers, the standard post will be 'he's senile, he's a stubborn prick, he doesn't play (insert player named above). Now he plays them, so we have to find something new to attack him with.

The communication breakdown is not ideal, but at least we have a manager with balls who won't take sh1t from players. What would Ferguson do if he were in Trap's position and a player directly contradicted him in the media? Don't get me wrong, I'd like if we had a situation where Trap got on great with all the players, and I do think the language barrier is an issue, but as long as we keep finishing top 2 in our groups I'll take it.

Personally, I think the hate of Trap stems from the style of football. The vast majority of people who post here support a top Premiership side. These sides can and do play attacking, exciting football that keeps us entertained. International football is different. Only very few teams can get away with playing an attacking, fluid system. Instead organisation and solidity is what brings home the bacon (Greece in '04, Paraguay reaching the Copa America final and only scoring two goals along the way).

Essentially, people want to be entertained, and though they won't admit it, the result comes second for them.

Seaneh

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Got in the big dance though, that's what counts.

McCarthy got us to a world cup, from a much harder group than we had in the EURO qualififers.

We got a tougher draw in the playoffs (Iran).


We qualifier from our group and then only lost to spain on peno's.


McCarthy's record is far more impressive than the dinosaurs.


He played better football too.

The Rooster

TheDoc wrote: »

Sigh,



This is the countries top goalscorer and captain, and while I'm not a fan of his, he deserves at the LEAST a phonecall, if not an in person visit.

Trap said he did call him. Got no answer, so texted him.

Backstreet Moyes

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

In a group containing the two finalists, where our most dominant victors delivered a similar hiding while winning the trophy.

Keep believing that a 4 - 5 - 1 with Hoolahan, Wilson and whatever other flavour of the months would have been the difference.

Flavour of the month Wilson has been performing very well for Stoke the last two seasons. Ward has been shown up time and time again. I cant believe you would rather Ward over Wilson. Also wasnt their some sort of misunderstanding again with Wilson. Left back has been a huge problem the last few years we need to get in the likes of Wilson and Clark.

On Hoolahan again flavour of the month he had a good premiership campaign. I dont think many are saying he would be a saviour but he is better than Andrews and Green. Would have been nice in the Euro's when going behind to have a Hoolahan on the bench who has some creativity and offers us a different outlet than defence minded players like Whelan,Andrews and Green.

gustavo

Seaneh wrote: »

McCarthy got us to a world cup, from a much harder group than we had in the EURO qualififers.

We got a tougher draw in the playoffs (Iran).


We qualifier from our group and then only lost to spain on peno's.


McCarthy's record is far more impressive than the dinosaurs.


He played better football too.

We qualified from an easier group though , thanks to a stoppage time winner against Germany.

Given that Trap's record is 1 finals appearance and 1 defeat in a playoff vs
Mick's 1 finals appearance and 2 defeats in a play off I would dispute your assertion that his record is "far more impressive"

Backstreet Moyes

carlop wrote: »

What I find funny is that the day after Trap plays a team including McCarthy, McClean, Walters, Kelly and Coleman, and after attempting to include Wilson, Hoolahan and Pilkington, people are having a go at him more than ever.

If I go back to a match thread from the qualifiers, the standard post will be 'he's senile, he's a stubborn prick, he doesn't play (insert player named above). Now he plays them, so we have to find something new to attack him with.

The communication breakdown is not ideal, but at least we have a manager with balls who won't take sh1t from players. What would Ferguson do if he were in Trap's position and a player directly contradicted him in the media? Don't get me wrong, I'd like if we had a situation where Trap got on great with all the players, and I do think the language barrier is an issue, but as long as we keep finishing top 2 in our groups I'll take it.

Personally, I think the hate of Trap stems from the style of football. The vast majority of people who post here support a top Premiership side. These sides can and do play attacking, exciting football that keeps us entertained. International football is different. Only very few teams can get away with playing an attacking, fluid system. Instead organisation and solidity is what brings home the bacon (Greece in '04, Paraguay reaching the Copa America final and only scoring two goals along the way).

Essentially, people want to be entertained, and though they won't admit it, the result comes second for them.

He had no choice to play some of those players due a massive injury list. Coleman was given a few mins when it would have been far better to try him out at rb a problem area. Instead Mcshane played most of the match their. Once the qualifiers start our best midfielder McCarthy will no doubt be 4th in line behind inferior players Whelan, Andrews and the mighty Green. We know what Kelly and Walters can do. Their is alot of young Irish talent but the fact is while he is in charge he is going to stick with his trusted players who suit his system. Sooner or later our luck will run out. It must feel terrible being a young player who cant get a chance when you look at the deadwood getting called up ahead of you.

All Trap wants is to play a system that will hopefully get results and scrape through. He has got alot of luck like the Russia game. Everytime we have come up against a good team we have got hammered. He is so predictable it makes it easier for teams to prepare a game plan against us. Trap doesnt care about the future of the team. He has no interest in developing young players for the future. We have alot of young talent but its wasted with Trap as Manager.

tolosenc

Hilarious that a couple of posters said that after what happened at the Euros, Trap is unwilling to change and sticking to 4-4-2.

We have played 1 match since then, in which we varied between a 4-5-1 and a 4-3-3. With McCarthy pulling the strings in the middle. Which is essentially everything the Trap haters were screaming for a year ago.

Yes his man management stinks, but he still gets the results. I think his treatment of Foley was horrendous and may have caused disarray in the dressing room, which resulted in the players not performing (we wouldn't have given up any of the 4 goals Spain scored had we played as well as we did in the qualifiers). If this malaise continues, then yes he needs to go. Otherwise he's here to stay.

Can still see him being shown the door after losing both games in the Germany-Sweden double header.

Backstreet Moyes

gustavo wrote: »

We qualified from an easier group though , thanks to a stoppage time winner against Germany.

Given that Trap's record is 1 finals appearance and 1 defeat in a playoff vs
Mick's 1 finals appearance and 2 defeats in a play off I would dispute your assertion that his record is "far more impressive"

We qualified from a group with Portugal and Holland. We drew away with Portugal and Holland. Drew with Portugal at home and beat Holland. Thats far more impressive than luckily scraping through a group against Russia and the mighty Slovakia and Armenia. We drew with Germany and only went out on penalties in the last 16 against Spain. Also playing a lovely brand of football. Would love to see Mick back in the job but cant see it after the way he was treated.

Plus we didnt beat Germany.

clubberlang12

I would wait for the qualifiers to begin and the injured players are back before i would speculate on what formation he tries. He essentially played 1 up front on Wednesday but that was as much to do with injuries as anything else. I would predict he will revert back to his normal 442 approach for the qualifiers.

Banjaxed82

tolosenc wrote: »

Hilarious that a couple of posters said that after what happened at the Euros, Trap is unwilling to change and sticking to 4-4-2.

We have played 1 match since then, in which we varied between a 4-5-1 and a 4-3-3. With McCarthy pulling the strings in the middle. Which is essentially everything the Trap haters were screaming for a year ago.

Yes his man management stinks, but he still gets the results. I think his treatment of Foley was horrendous and may have caused disarray in the dressing room, which resulted in the players not performing (we wouldn't have given up any of the 4 goals Spain scored had we played as well as we did in the qualifiers). If this malaise continues, then yes he needs to go. Otherwise he's here to stay.

Can still see him being shown the door after losing both games in the Germany-Sweden double header.

+1

I think this is inevitable, barring a massive turnaround.

statss

sugarman wrote: »

Long.

Players Trap has had issues with:

Kevin Foley.
Steven Reid.
Steve Finnan.
Andy Reid.
Joey o'Brien.
Anthony Stokes.
Leon Best.
McCarthey.
Wilson.
Noel Hunt.
Ian Harte.

And probably a few more.


Players has stunted growth of the following so far:

Long, McCarthy, Coleman, Duffy, Wilson, Clark, McClean, Meyler... Probably a few more, but thats off the top of my head.

All the above are in their early to almost mid 20's. Back when Mick took over he threw everyone into the deep end in terms of long term blooding/developmet. i.e Keane/Duff at 18, Given at 20, Dunne at 21 etc etc.. We all know how that worked out.

What makes it worse, is hes playing/played the likes of Green, McShane, Rowlands, Miller etc over them:mad:

Other off the ball incidents:

Miscomunication with players.
Not physically watching any of them. Ever.
Keeping in contact by test, if even.
Outing them in the media. i.e The whole Steven Reid thing. Calling long 'idiotic' or talking about Gibson changing clubs.

SICK To DEATH of this man. People say who else is there? ANYONE. I'd take back Mick or even Kerr in a heart beat. Chris Hutton would have been brilliant to take over.

For 1.5m, we could have a host of other managers!

Who would you suggest?

Seaneh

Mick McCarthy, in the morning.

GLaDOS

Have to say I lost a lot of respect for Trap after the Foley incident, find it hard to trust what he says these days

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not defending his performance anymore, that's the point. I don't have to - his results speak for themselves and he's in till the end of this campaign upon which stage he will retire.

I just drop by to note my amusement at how mad he makes you all when he's the first Irish manager to deliver major tournament participation in 10 years. It's utterly comical.

His results are nothing impressive. Spoof all you want about how us qualifying past Armenia and Estonia proves he is managing the team well. You know what you're saying is bullshìt.

You have posted your defence of him in this thread by giving your opinion on the expendability of international players and your views on his record of results, you have thanked other posts defending him with various arguments - all in this thread alone. And yet you are trying to pretend you only drop by to express your amusement. You are lying about what you are posting in these discussions in an attempt to look cool. It's pathetic.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

What further makes the whole thing hilarious is that actual professional coaches I know have bucket loads of respect for what he has done - there is a media frenzy being whipped up here that is quite bizarre. But anyway, carry on.

I don't care in the slightest what some professional coach has told you. You might think that the thousands of hours you and I spend watching, thinking about and discussing football mean nothing when compared to the opinion expressed by somebody fortunate enough to be employed in the game, I don't share that view. From the evidence I have seen, the opinions expressed by professional coaches are very often untrustworthy, ill-informed, arse covering nonsense.

supersean1999

i cant stand trap, his broken english, his tactics, his suits his hair , or his love affair with paul green,

Helix

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

his love affair with Cox is getting ridiculous now.

teehee

Pro. F

carlop wrote: »

What I find funny is that the day after Trap plays a team including McCarthy, McClean, Walters, Kelly and Coleman, and after attempting to include Wilson, Hoolahan and Pilkington, people are having a go at him more than ever.

If I go back to a match thread from the qualifiers, the standard post will be 'he's senile, he's a stubborn prick, he doesn't play (insert player named above). Now he plays them, so we have to find something new to attack him with.

That was one game. If he keeps on showing that he is willing to look beyond the 442 and gives players with skill on the ball like McCarthy, Hoolihan and Fahey the chances they deserve, then I for one will be much happier with him. But everybody knows that is not likely to happen.

And don't forget that he still played Paul Green in this friendly and fell out with yet another quality player. This isn't people looking for something new to attack him with, this is a continuation of the crap that has been pissing people off all along.

carlop wrote: »

The communication breakdown is not ideal, but at least we have a manager with balls who won't take sh1t from players. What would Ferguson do if he were in Trap's position and a player directly contradicted him in the media? Don't get me wrong, I'd like if we had a situation where Trap got on great with all the players, and I do think the language barrier is an issue, but as long as we keep finishing top 2 in our groups I'll take it.

It's not just one incident where he has slapped down one player who spoke out of turn. If that was what had happened then the vast majority of people would be backing Trap. What it actually is is yet another incident in the crazy long line of incidents where Trap has fallen out with players. You can't deny that his communication is appalling and you can't deny that he has handled some situations with players in the recent past extremely badly.

carlop wrote: »

Personally, I think the hate of Trap stems from the style of football. The vast majority of people who post here support a top Premiership side. These sides can and do play attacking, exciting football that keeps us entertained. International football is different. Only very few teams can get away with playing an attacking, fluid system. Instead organisation and solidity is what brings home the bacon (Greece in '04, Paraguay reaching the Copa America final and only scoring two goals along the way).

Essentially, people want to be entertained, and though they won't admit it, the result comes second for them.

Plenty of top premiership sides play defensive football. Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and City have all played a lot of defensive football in European competition in recent years. Defensive football is nothing new to EPL watchers.

I for one want results before anything else with the Irish team. I don't agree with you that defensive football is the only way to get results for small teams in International football, but that is a different conversation. If we were playing sensible defensive football I wouldn't be complaining. But defending deep while somehow still leaving loads of space between the back four and midfield and kicking the ball long to two short strikers is not sensible defensive football.