Return to the bad old days? Police gun down miners in South Africa

southsiderosie

Police in South Africa gunned down miners staging a wildcat strike:

In a scene replayed endlessly on television that reminded some South Africans of the days when the police of the apartheid government opened fire on protesters, heavily armed police officers shot into the crowd of workers, most of them members of a radical labor union who walked off the job a week ago, demanding that their wages be tripled.

There was no official word on the death toll. At least six bodies were visible after the shooting ended, but the police did not release a figure. SAPA, South Africa’s main news agency, reported that 18 people had been killed. Ten people had already died as a result of violence connected to the strike, which began on Friday when thousands of workers stormed off the job, demanding the higher wages.

The incident was recorded by a news team covering the strike: video here (WARNING: may be disturbing for some).

I have to wonder: after decades of apartheid, can South Africa every truly become a society where rule of law is respected - by both citizens and the state? I'm reminded of Connolly's comment that (and I'm paraphrasing here) if the English were to leave immediately and the green flag hoisted over Dublin Castle, without fundamental political and economic reform it would just be the same-old same-old. Seeing the police gun down protestors certainly has echoes of the bad old days, and I'm growing increasingly pessimistic about South Africa - and specifically, its state security forces - being able to move past that history.

Nodin

It has to be said that the miners there were doing a bit more than striking. They're armed with clubs, machetes and handguns and have been killing workers breaking the strike. Added to that, the day before they charged a group of police and killed two of them. While it does seem excessive at first glance, I don't think the cops had too much of a choice.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2012/08/2012816141649568598.html

At about 2 minutes 7 seconds in, you can see one of the cops recover a handgun from one of the dead.

southsiderosie

Nodin wrote: »

It has to be said that the miners there were doing a bit more than striking. They're armed with clubs, machetes and handguns and have been killing workers breaking the strike. Added to that, the day before they charged a group of police and killed two of them. While it does seem excessive at first glance, I don't think the cops had too much of a choice.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2012/08/2012816141649568598.html

At about 2 minutes 7 seconds in, you can see one of the cops recover a handgun from one of the dead.

Christ, I hadn't see all that. It seems totally out of control on both sides.

Nodin

Aye. There might be some different tactics the cops could use, but at the end of the day, an armed mob is an armed mob. If they left them camped there, they'd only be bumping off more workers so there was always going to be some form of confrontation.

On Channel4 news earlier, it was claimed that the stand-off is in part due to rival unions vying for power in the same mine. Which perhaps can explain some of the violence towards coworkers.

southsiderosie

Yes, from what I read earlier, this was a wildcat strike - they feel like the main miner's union abandoned then and they are asking for a three fold increase in wages.

It's quite interesting to see how this story is covered in different media. On the NY Times website earlier, while there were references to the miners having machetes, and the rift between the unions, there was nothing about the previous violence. Hm.

Brussels Sprout

I don't particularly want to watch those videos but is the race of the police an issue or are they mostly black as well?

Fr Tod Umptious

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I don't particularly want to watch those videos but is the race of the police an issue or are they mostly black as well?

The police in the video are predominately black

To an outsider it looks like the steady decent into the new Zimbabwe continues

southsiderosie

I don't think any democracy will fare well when the ruling party has no fear of getting voted out of office. I think a split in the ANC could be a good thing for South African politics if it doesn't turn violent. But that is a big if!

The big test for new democracies is at least two election cycles where the government peacefully changes hands. That has always been a sticking point in post-colonial African politics, and I'm not sure that the current ANC leadership has the grace or the sense to quietly exit should they lose an election.

Nodin

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The police in the video are predominately black

To an outsider it looks like the steady decent into the new Zimbabwe continues

Only if you ignore the context.

Brussels Sprout

southsiderosie wrote: »

I don't think any democracy will fare well when the ruling party has no fear of getting voted out of office. I think a split in the ANC could be a good thing for South African politics if it doesn't turn violent. But that is a big if!

I'd wager that a split may happen after Nelson Mandela dies.

Le_Dieux

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

The police in the video are predominately black

To an outsider it looks like the steady decent into the new Zimbabwe continues

Believe me Fr. Tod, there are a LOT on the inside who feel the same way also. I lived there for 20 years, pre and post 1994, so have experienced violence first hand there. It is the most beautiful country, populated by some of the warmest people on this planet. But alas, there is this perception by the lower class workers ( apologies for this description, but I can't think of another way of putting this ) that as far as the 'baas' is concerned, he MUST give and I MUST take. There is no such thing as 'share and share alike'. Where else would You get strikers going on a march as picture #8 on this page would imply?: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19290086

Alan Paton wrote a book ( which was also made into a movie) titled 'Cry The Beloved Country', so true and so apt at this present time.

AlekSmart

What struck me as interesting was the SAPF's turn out.

For those who watched the TV News pictures of various SAPD Crowd Control measures in the 1980's and 90's the Shotgun was the main firearm on display followed by the Shembok,a long whip-like weapon usually used in conjunction with dogs.

The new SA regime have obviously learned from those old-days as the Police in this occurrence were seriously well equipped with mostly Full-On Para-Military weaponry.

The vehicles used were from a Tactical Response Team,but the numbers involved appear to suggest something more was afoot for this particular protest.

Rascasse

They still have sjamboks for use when suitable but this was a case of a few thousand guys with knobkieries, pangas, spears and reports of guns, not to mention 2 cops had been killed a couple of days earlier, so that would be why they have all the body armour etc. The armoured vehicles have been around since the apartheid days too.


So now good old Julius has shown up to rile the strikers. Why the hell did they let this guy anywhere near the place?

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Malema-asks-police-to-distance-themselves-20120818-3

Le_Dieux

Rascasse wrote: »

So now good old Julius has shown up to rile the strikers. Why the hell did they let this guy anywhere near the place?

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Malema-asks-police-to-distance-themselves-20120818-3[/QUOTE]

malema is no good to anyone. That fu**er will RUIN South Africa. A plonker of the highest order!!! South Africa has one major problem...the malema's of this world, and there are plenty to take his place if he is taken out.

Le_Dieux

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I'd wager that a split may happen after Nelson Mandela dies.

Your wager could be right Brussel Sprout ( can't use the initials here:-)), except for one thing - Jacob Zuma. He is disliked by practically all in South Africa, and of those that don't like Him, they also regard Him a a complete embarassment.

Zuma may cause a rift sooner rather than later. If only there was a younger version of Madiba!

Jolly Red Giant

The strike at Marikana comes on the back of a whole series of strikes by mineworkers over the past few months, strikes that have seen violent repression by the police, army and private security thugs. The current dispute stems from falling platinum prices and the attempts by the South African mine owners to cut production by cutting jobs and wages in an attempt to manipulate the market and drive up prices. Miners work in poor conditions with many deaths and injuries, They live in shanytowns surrounding the mines in single roomed corrugated iron hovels with no electricity, running water or sanitation and are paid approximately €400 a month, most of which goes back to the mine owners for the living expenses.

Violence marked the start of the strike at Marikana a week ago. On the first day of the strike Police and company thugs using snipers opened fire on a peaceful protest march killing five strikers and wounding over a dozen others. Striking workers were attacked by company thugs who rampaged through the shanytowns. The mine owners and the company union, the NUM, have consciously attempted to whip up tribal conflict in the area. The result is that over the past ten days at least ten people, from both sides, have been killed in violent clashes.

The massacre on Thursday stemmed from attempts by the thousands of police and company thugs to corral 3,000 striking miners with razor wire on a hill overlooking the mine in an attempt to round up and arrest (or worse) the strike organisers. After surrounding the miners with razor wire the police fired volley after volley of tear gas and stun grenades into the corralled miners. The shooting started when a section of the miners broke out of the cordon in an attempt to get away from the tear gas and stun grenades and ended up confronting a section of the police lines. The police opened fire with automatic weapons killing at least 46 miners and wounding over 100 others.

Since the massacre the Police are refusing to release the names of those who were killed, those who are injured or the almost 300 miners who have been arrested. More than 450 families are suffering not knowing what has happened to their family members and if they are dead or alive.

The objective of the South African state and the mine owners is to crush the breakaway unions in their infancy. If the shootings didn’t happen on Thursday, the police and bosses would have engineered another incident where massive repression could have been imposed in an effort to crush the breakaway union. The class war in South Africa is violent and bloody and the bosses and the ANC have demonstrated that they will stop at nothing in an effort to suppress the rising tide of opposition to austerity and oppression in South Africa.

You had me till the word 'Austerity' :P

Interesting view of things, all the same. I would imagine it wouldn't take long for criminal elements to appear in a situation like this. Are you right in saying that Platinum prices are falling?

Le_Dieux

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

You had me till the word 'Austerity' :P

Interesting view of things, all the same. I would imagine it wouldn't take long for criminal elements to appear in a situation like this. Are you right in saying that Platinum prices are falling?

That platinum prices are falling is correct.

I find this view point very interesting, but think it reflects more the pre 1994 scenario in the mining industry there.

As I have said elsewhere, I am out of SA for 8 years now, but based on how it was when I left, I can't see the ANC led government permitting working conditions as described above on the mine campuses. Without calling anyone a liar, have You any proof to back up Your claims on working conditions there? Also, when these strikers went and hacked 2 cops to death ( which You have failed to mention) that was also setting a precedent.

Another thing which You fail to mention is the inter-union friction between the NUM & the more militant ( according to what I have read) ACMU.

Jolly Red Giant

Le_Dieux wrote: »

I find this view point very interesting, but think it reflects more the pre 1994 scenario in the mining industry there.

It reflects the actual situation on the ground today

Le_Dieux wrote: »

As I have said elsewhere, I am out of SA for 8 years now, but based on how it was when I left, I can't see the ANC led government permitting working conditions as described above on the mine campuses. Without calling anyone a liar, have You any proof to back up Your claims on working conditions there?

Plenty of evidence - you can start here -
http://www.bench-marks.org.za/research/rustenburg_review_policy_gap_final_aug_2012.pdf

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Also, when these strikers went and hacked 2 cops to death ( which You have failed to mention) that was also setting a precedent.

I stated that 10 people had been killed - it included two cops and two security guards (in reality company thugs). The killings of the police happened after hired goons of the NUM and company thugs had attacked a protest picket by the striking miners and killed two miners - the cops arrived and waded into the strikers (including using snatch squads in an attempt to kidnap strike organisers). Should the miners have killed the cops - no - but what do you expect in the middle of a pitched battle when several workers were already killed. What is more - afterwards the cops shot three strikers in what the police themselves admit was a retaliation attack. The two security guards were killed while guarding the NUM offices at the mine which was attacked after the NUM's hired thugs killed three striking miners during protests earlier in the day.

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Another thing which You fail to mention is the inter-union friction between the NUM & the more militant ( according to what I have read) ACMU.

In reality there is no inter-union friction - it is a straight forward down-the-line class battle between the mineworkers on one side and the government, the police, the mine owners and the NUM goons on the other. The NUM these days is nothing more than a hack company union carrying out the bidding of the mine bosses and the ANC government (incidently half the government's ministers own share in the Marikana mine). The NUM is riddled with bribery and corruption - the former general seretary, Cyril Ramaphosa is one of the richest men in South Africa and is now on the board of Lonmin (the company that own the Marikana mine) and he didn't get his wealth from 'entrepreneurship'. NUM officials conclude agreements behind closed doors without every referring to the miners only then to come out to the miners (flanked by company goons armed with automatic weapons) and tell them that the agreements are binding. The NUM officials have received houses, foreign holidays and company shares as bribes for operating in this fashion. They get away with it because the NUM are the only union with a 'negotiating licence' despite the fact that they have practially no membership left (and those that remain NUM members do so primarily because of intimidation). The AMCU (who have recruited tens of thousands of former NUM members over the past couple of years) have qualified under law for negotiating rights in practially every mine in the country but the government refuse to grant them negotiating rights. Now the AMCU are far from perfect - there are major issues with their approach, their methods and their orientation - but their growth is a reflection of the abject sell-out of the NUM and the hatred they regarded with by the vast majority of mineworkers. Final point - the NUM have practically no membership in the Marikana mine - the AMCU is significantly bigger, but the majority of those on strike are not actually members of either union.

jimmycrackcorm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

The massacre on Thursday stemmed from attempts by the thousands of police and company thugs to corral 3,000 striking miners with razor wire on a hill overlooking the mine in an attempt to round up and arrest (or worse) the strike organisers. After surrounding the miners with razor wire the police fired volley after volley of tear gas and stun grenades into the corralled miners. The shooting started when a section of the miners broke out of the cordon in an attempt to get away from the tear gas and stun grenades and ended up confronting a section of the police lines. The police opened fire with automatic weapons killing at least 46 miners and wounding over 100 others.

Since the massacre the Police are refusing to release the names of those who were killed, those who are injured or the almost 300 miners who have been arrested. More than 450 families are suffering not knowing what has happened to their family members and if they are dead or alive.

The objective of the South African state and the mine owners is to crush the breakaway unions in their infancy. If the shootings didn’t happen on Thursday, the police and bosses would have engineered another incident where massive repression could have been imposed in an effort to crush the breakaway union.

This was no ordinary striking group but an armed mob. These shootings were inevitable once the mob armed themselves. If you were a policeman faced with such a mobile coming at you would you hold your fire?

Rascasse

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Final point - the NUM have practically no membership in the Marikana mine - the AMCU is significantly bigger, but the majority of those on strike are not actually members of either union.

Do you have any sources for any of the claims in your posts? It reads a lot like far left propaganda. The Mail & Guardian (a respected source that I'd call centre to centre left in political leaning) says that NUM's membership at the mine fell from 66% to 49% and AMCU has risen to 19% thanks to promising these guys they will more than double their salaries. So that directly contradicts your first point, are you still going to claim the most of the strikers are from the unrepresented 32%? Or have they been rallied by the ACMU to protest 'aggressively' to get that pay rise?


And those asking for a split in the ANC - be careful what you wish for. Any split in the future could well involve Julius or, as I prefer to call him, Mugabe jr.

There is some hope though. COPE split from the ANC and while they haven't had much success so far they do at least seem to be a bit more realistic and responsible than the ANC. Hopefully the DA can continue to increase their vote share too. Compare WC to the other provinces, its like a different world.

Le_Dieux

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

It reflects the actual situation on the ground today


Plenty of evidence - you can start here -
http://www.bench-marks.org.za/research/rustenburg_review_policy_gap_final_aug_2012.pdf


I stated that 10 people had been killed - it included two cops and two security guards (in reality company thugs). The killings of the police happened after hired goons of the NUM and company thugs had attacked a protest picket by the striking miners and killed two miners - the cops arrived and waded into the strikers (including using snatch squads in an attempt to kidnap strike organisers). Should the miners have killed the cops - no - but what do you expect in the middle of a pitched battle when several workers were already killed. What is more - afterwards the cops shot three strikers in what the police themselves admit was a retaliation attack. The two security guards were killed while guarding the NUM offices at the mine which was attacked after the NUM's hired thugs killed three striking miners during protests earlier in the day.


In reality there is no inter-union friction - it is a straight forward down-the-line class battle between the mineworkers on one side and the government, the police, the mine owners and the NUM goons on the other. The NUM these days is nothing more than a hack company union carrying out the bidding of the mine bosses and the ANC government (incidently half the government's ministers own share in the Marikana mine). The NUM is riddled with bribery and corruption - the former general seretary, Cyril Ramaphosa is one of the richest men in South Africa and is now on the board of Lonmin (the company that own the Marikana mine) and he didn't get his wealth from 'entrepreneurship'. NUM officials conclude agreements behind closed doors without every referring to the miners only then to come out to the miners (flanked by company goons armed with automatic weapons) and tell them that the agreements are binding. The NUM officials have received houses, foreign holidays and company shares as bribes for operating in this fashion. They get away with it because the NUM are the only union with a 'negotiating licence' despite the fact that they have practially no membership left (and those that remain NUM members do so primarily because of intimidation). The AMCU (who have recruited tens of thousands of former NUM members over the past couple of years) have qualified under law for negotiating rights in practially every mine in the country but the government refuse to grant them negotiating rights. Now the AMCU are far from perfect - there are major issues with their approach, their methods and their orientation - but their growth is a reflection of the abject sell-out of the NUM and the hatred they regarded with by the vast majority of mineworkers. Final point - the NUM have practically no membership in the Marikana mine - the AMCU is significantly bigger, but the majority of those on strike are not actually members of either union.

You seem convinced all the thuggery is coming from the management/company side. On what basis do You make that assumption? Again, I refer to my previous message ( #12 ) on this thread. Since when do strikers go marching carrying such weapons?

And, You say no inter-union friction?? See: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/08/19/safrica-lonmin-mining-idUSL6E8JI0OQ20120819

Rascasse

An update to this; 270 of the miners/protestors that survived have each been charged with 34 counts of murder for their colleagues that were shot by the police.

Any charges for the police will only be laid once a public enquiry has reported. Don't hold your breaths.

Lost for words, really.

Fr Tod Umptious

Rascasse wrote: »

An update to this; 270 of the miners/protestors that survived have each been charged with 34 counts of murder for their colleagues that were shot by the police.

Any charges for the police will only be laid once a public enquiry has reported. Don't hold your breaths.

Lost for words, really.

I'm no union man or fan of the left by any means but this stuff is so fae off the charts it's just crazy.

Is the leadership of SA trying to fast track the countries demise into god only knows what ?

Le_Dieux

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'm no union man or fan of the left by any means but this stuff is so fae off the charts it's just crazy.

Is the leadership of SA trying to fast track the countries demise into god only knows what ?

One word to answer You Fr. Tod....YES! Have said before and will repeat again - Zim is only a forerunner of the sh1t that's going to hit the fan. SA is a time-delayed grenade, just waiting for someone to pull the pin.

Le_Dieux

Rascasse wrote: »

An update to this; 270 of the miners/protestors that survived have each been charged with 34 counts of murder for their colleagues that were shot by the police.

Any charges for the police will only be laid once a public enquiry has reported. Don't hold your breaths.

Lost for words, really.

Utter crazy stuff.

And on the far left we have this boll1x fanning the hatred flames from that side...another cnut who hasn't a ficking clue:

http://newsletters.iol.co.za/servlet/link/11979/54370/14240287/993080

Le_Dieux

Jolly Red Giant

Any views after reading this? http://newsletters.iol.co.za/servlet/link/11979/54546/14240287/998864

I don't care who is right or wrong, but to go and threaten to MURDER management?????????

What a fcuking mess!!!!!!!!