Would it be possible.......

crazy cabbage

GarIT wrote: »

Why would people in this system work 20 hours when people in similar systems worked up to (and possibly more than) 70 hours.

Becouse in my view of a perfect society people wouldn't feel the need for material possisions aside from the what they need plus a little.
But yea i just plucked 20 hours out of my head. I would still think that it would be alot less than the normal 40 hour week

GarIT

crazy cabbage wrote: »

free implies that things cost money. things dont cost money becouse there is no money in this society so therefore cant be free. the word free implies that there is things that arn't free which there isn't.

understand?

After the third time I did.

I'll just have everything so because it doesn't cost.

GarIT

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Becouse in my view of a perfect society people wouldn't feel the need for material possisions aside from the what they need plus a little.
But yea i just plucked 20 hours out of my head. I would still think that it would be alot less than the normal 40 hour week

We have very different opinions, I think material possessions are important. I don't see a reason why I should settle for the basics when I could have more.

crackcrack30

GarIT wrote: »

If everything was free could I not just have everything?

You could have what you need......you can only eat one breakfast.

It would take a complete 180 degree change of mindset to undo the thousands of years of our love affair with material possessions & excess...
The american indian only ever owned what he could carry (leaving out the horse) not that i promote that much of an extremity.
Some people expect everything for free E.G home / healthcare / education without ever working (but thats not what this thread is about), sidetracked.

crazy cabbage

GarIT wrote: »

After the third time I did.

I'll just have everything so because it doesn't cost.

You are not getting the point of this type of society. This society would only work if and when people have a set of values that dont involve power and control, money and material possosions. In my view the perfect society would have a value system that transcended all that. People would value family and community and there life. They would work at what they love as would everyone else. People would freely give there creations (be it bread or crops or book or hens or eggs ect) becouse they would also get what they needed. And for the person who said why would you work. That is the wrong way to look at it. You would do something that you love. I dont see that as work.

crackcrack30

GarIT wrote: »

We have very different opinions, I think material possessions are important. I don't see a reason why I should settle for the basics when I could have more.

You would not settle you would be content, if you were born in , lets say Sudan, today you would be content with clean water, food, shelter, a football ect.
I think this would be hardest on the generation that makes the change as the next generation have not been spoilt, yet......

What system do the amish have?, i dont think they use diesel/petrol/oil.

crackcrack30

Looks like its just you & I Crazy Cabbage.....:p

crazy cabbage

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Looks like its just you & I Crazy Cabbage.....:p

In fairness i think i remember scumlord starting a tread along similar lines ages ago. He might be on board :pac:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055727937&page=3

But this is something that i have put series thoght into. The value system of our society need to change first though.

Toby Take a Bow

GarIT wrote: »

Even with this idea there would have to be currency or everyone could just have everything.[/B]

The whole thing hinges on people just taking what they need. If people take everything then the whole system would collapse. So, in this situation, there is no need for currency.

GarIT wrote: »

No private enterprise would be the reason for the word extreme before communism.

My point was that even the most extreme forms of communism had private enterprise. I'm not sure what the system the OP is suggesting would be called. Possibly some form of local anarchist collective.

Mr Benevolent

crackcrack30 wrote: »

I think money has failed 95% (odd) of the worlds population...

Hasn't failed me yet.

ScumLord

What your looking for is Zeitgeist.

frozenfrozen wrote: »

Who would bother their hole studying to be a doctor if they made the same money as someone doing something easy?

People would study for their own benefit to achieve tasks.


The money system has become entirely corrupted and is holding back humanity at this stage. We've outgrown it and need to move onto a different system.

Technology like the internet has changed everything, all people become equal on the internet and companies try desperately to fight the fundamentals of the internet to turn a profit out of it.

It's not like a bridge can't be built without money. The need, knowledge, resources and will power may be there to build the bridge then we introduce the imaginary monetary system to the equation and suddenly building a bridge is impossible.

Mr Benevolent

ScumLord wrote: »

It's not like a bridge can't be built without money. The need, knowledge, resources and will power may be there to build the bridge then we introduce the imaginary monetary system to the equation and suddenly building a bridge is impossible.

Imaginary systems are all that hold our society together.

ScumLord

Confab wrote: »

Imaginary systems are all that hold our society together.

True but they are made up and we can change them as we see fit. The monetary system as far as I'm concerned, holds up advancements, creates huge poverty as well as elevates a minority to elite status whether they deserve it or not. It encourages wasteful behaviour for monetary gain, it turns life into commodities and of course encourages greed at the expense of humanity.

We should take a scientific approach to rebuilding society, we know what humans need and how to achieve a much better society it's just not financially viable because it would wipe out finances.

crackcrack30

What would it take to get this major change of mindset and gain a positive attitude towards change/ alternatives.

Religion - A second comming.

Famine - A chicken was exchanged for a gold coin in the balkins war within the past 20 years.

War - No internet , no trade, no utilities,...... blank canvass

Collapse in world banking - ......hmm...... :eek:.

yeah no thanks guys

crackcrack30

Confab wrote: »

Hasn't failed me yet.

Money is only usefull when it can be exchanged for something you need - this may not always be the case........How much will a loaf of bread be next year ? 1 euro or 100 euro, ask your bank manager....he should know...

crackcrack30

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Money is only usefull when it can be exchanged for something you need

and something you want
and as a means of storing wealth
and as a measure of value

ScumLord

crackcrack30 wrote: »

What would it take to get this major change of mindset and gain a positive attitude towards change/ alternatives.

We have it pretty good these days and the banking system will see to it we never get so upset that we'd risk abandoning what we have for the possibility of a better life. The only way people would be motivated to act for change would be if things got so bad we had to. I don't see that happening we'll be drip feed just enough wealth to keep us content where we are.

Collapse in world banking - ......hmm...... :eek:.

The world banks didn't collapse though, the wealth was simply consolidated into fewer banks and portfolios. There's no doubt a few groups made out very well out of the banking crisis. That wealth will slowly spread out again over the next 2 or 3 decades when we'll more than likely see another banking crisis (which is the pattern) when that wealth will be consolidated back to the same groups again.

crackcrack30

bluewolf wrote: »

and as a means of storing wealth

There are no guarantees
You have 10,000 20 euro notes in a safe and i have 8,000 10 euro notes in a safe, so what do we have .........2 boxes of paper? i could take out that money today and possibly buy a house... i could take out that money in one years time and buy 2 houses or none, it could be like the old italian, greek or japaneese currency requiring millions of each

Money is only usefull when exchanged for something else......on that day.

Colmustard

I don't know what people have against capitalism, capitalism has lifted people out of the mire of intergenerational poverty. Just imagine before capitalism say in the 17th century if you had a farm and you seen a market for eggs, so you wanted to invest in some hens and a coop. You would have to spend your life saving that capital and perhaps your heir would benefit.

Now you can borrow that money and get a return, scale that up and you have the modern world of unprecedented wealth. Off course its not perfect and gets abused, but it is the best economic system that has ever existed and it is still a dynamic work in progress system.

crackcrack30

There was an irish woman on the radio a couple of months back she started out with 15 hens and now has 200,000 within 20 yrs.

I think this type of capitalism must distort local food producing abilities/economies while not guaranteeing anything , possibily too many eggs in one basket if you excuse the pun.....

crackcrack30

Colmustard wrote: »

Now you can borrow that money and get a return, scale that up and you have the modern world of unprecedented wealth.

That has really worked in ireland hasnt it.......With all of our homegrown multinationals accross the globe sending back money every night........wait....has supermacs gone global yet?

Colmustard

crackcrack30 wrote: »

There was an irish woman on the radio a couple of months back she started out with 15 hens and now has 200,000 within 20 yrs.

I think this type of capitalism must distort local food producing abilities/economies while not guaranteeing anything , possibily too many eggs in one basket if you excuse the pun.....

I just used that example I could have said a better plough or a barn. But it does, 200,000 hens gives us cheaper eggs which enables other industries like bakeries etc. It also gives the economy jobs and a tax stream which gets invested in education, law and order and infrastructure.

Before capitalism societies stayed more or less the same for millennium, it is truly a wonderful positive sum gain system. But only when it is played fairly which of course as recent events has shown it isn't.

But any other economic system is utopian and a pipe dream.

ScumLord

Colmustard wrote: »

I don't know what people have against capitalism, capitalism has lifted people out of the mire of intergenerational poverty. Just imagine before capitalism say in the 17th century if you had a farm and you seen a market for eggs, so you wanted to invest in some hens and a coop. You would have to spend your life saving that capital and perhaps your heir would benefit.

They had capitalism back then too, you could borrow money it just wasn't regulated. You could easily get chicken and would more than likely know how to make a coop, there'd be no regulations to stop you making the coop or forcing you to make the coop to a certain standard. You wouldn't have to apply for planning permission, or fill in any forms, you could just sell the eggs without informing the government or paying tax on each egg you sell. The fact of the matter is, back then lots of people would have had their own chickens because there was nothing preventing them for keeping chickens. It's a far more expensive prospect trying to make a business out out of anything these days. The government and banks want to know exactly what your doing and then get their cut of the action.

Now you can borrow that money and get a return, scale that up and you have the modern world of unprecedented wealth. Off course its not perfect and gets abused, but it is the best economic system that has ever existed and it is still a dynamic work in progress system.

Capitalism has been around since the beginning in a sense, it's an extremely crude system that's been regulated to death. If your on about modern banking that came about a few hundred years ago to help merchants trade internationally.

It has been a good system and it has got us this far but it's been taken advantage of and if you don't have vast amounts of money it's working against you more than anything.

There's no reason why we shouldn't look for improvements, human society has completely changed in the last hundred years since industrialisation and information technology came along and the capitalism we're using is out of date and redundant in this day and age. It only serves to consolidate power to those that hold the wealth. It doesn't really serve the majority.

Colmustard

crackcrack30 wrote: »

That has really worked in ireland hasnt it.......With all of our homegrown multinationals accross the globe sending back money every night........wait....has supermacs gone global yet?

I sit here in a decent house and enjoy a moderate income which is in the top 2% in the world. I had free education to second level and have a social welfare net. I also have hospital care if I need it. You don't realise how lucky we are.

So yes Ireland has enormously benefited as did its citizens.

ScumLord

Colmustard wrote: »

I just used that example I could have said a better plough or a barn. But it does, 200,000 hens gives us cheaper eggs which enables other industries like bakeries etc. It also gives the economy jobs and a tax stream which gets invested in education, law and order and infrastructure.

It also has some horrible side effects that we're only beginning to see now. First of all those 20,000 chickens are probably living a horrible life, the industrialisation of food from animals is also going to turn around and kick us in the arse soon enough.

We're rapidly destroying the effectiveness of our antibiotics because the farmers have to pump these birds full of antibiotics to stop them getting diseases as these animals aren't supposed to live in such large colonies. We're seeing big jumps in infections at the moment and it's down to us eating intensively farmed chicken.

We're making very dangerous and stupid mistakes for profit.

ScumLord

Colmustard wrote: »

I sit here in a decent house and enjoy a moderate income which is in the top 2% in the world. I had free education to second level and have a social welfare net. I also have hospital care if I need it. You don't realise how lucky we are.

Yes, we are. Not so much for the other 98% of the human population.

Colmustard

ScumLord wrote: »

They had capitalism back then too, you could borrow money it just wasn't regulated. You could easily get chicken and would more than likely know how to make a coop, there'd be no regulations to stop you making the coop or forcing you to make the coop to a certain standard. You wouldn't have to apply for planning permission, or fill in any forms, you could just sell the eggs without informing the government or paying tax on each egg you sell. The fact of the matter is, back then lots of people would have had their own chickens because there was nothing preventing them for keeping chickens. It's a far more expensive prospect trying to make a business out out of anything these days. The government and banks want to know exactly what your doing and then get their cut of the action.

Capitalism has been around since the beginning in a sense, it's an extremely crude system that's been regulated to death. If your on about modern banking that came about a few hundred years ago to help merchants trade internationally.

It has been a good system and it has got us this far but it's been taken advantage of and if you don't have vast amounts of money it's working against you more than anything.

There's no reason why we shouldn't look for improvements, human society has completely changed in the last hundred years since industrialisation and information technology came along and the capitalism we're using is out of date and redundant in this day and age. It only serves to consolidate power to those that hold the wealth. It doesn't really serve the majority.

It wasn't really around for the whole of society as it is today, only a select few could borrow and modern capitalism is modern banking. It is still lifting millions and millions of people out of poverty in South America and the far east.

It is regulated to death, but that stops some of capitalisms abuses. I used the example of a coop. I can't build a multistory coop and not care about the waste of my stock or get a monopoly.

As I said it is not perfect and still a work in progress.

Colmustard

ScumLord wrote: »

Yes, we are. Not so much for the other 98% of the human population.

Getting there, globalisation is boosting worldwide capitalism. But I take your point.

crackcrack30

One of the biggest Growth 'areas' by far in North America is lockup storage units, 1 in 10 homes now have one , over 90% of items stored is cheap tack that originates in asia i.e china.
Theres something seriously wrong with that.........Their homes are so full of 2nd and 3rd world rubbish that they have to rent out lockups, thats the home of captilism which is indepted to the neck....... excess ,excess, material excess.....