Would it be possible.......

Eurovisionmad

But once again where would the incentive to work be?

ScumLord

Colmustard wrote: »

It wasn't really around for the whole of society as it is today, only a select few could borrow and modern capitalism is modern banking.

It was open to anyone because anyone could be a lender. There wasn't as many people that where willing to lend because the people that needed the money probably couldn't pay it back. Unless you had something they wanted and would use the loan they knew you couldn't pay back as a way of seizing your assets.

It is still lifting millions and millions of people out of poverty in South America and the far east.

It's taking advantage of them more like. Child labour is popular in Africa, people get the smallest wages so we can have cheap products, they aren't really seeing the full benefit and are losing their land and resources to international corporations.

There's also nowhere for them to be lifted to. They can't come up to our level because we consume way to much and if they joined the party we'd have to give up some of our wealth which we won't be doing. Africa is being plundered not helped.

Just like Chinese people are being taken advantage of by their own government to appease our greed and unwillingness to pay a decent price for our products. We don't mind that people have to work in close to slave conditions if we get cheap tat.

It is regulated to death, but that stops some of capitalisms abuses.

The regulation is a money spinner in it's own right. You can't complete he simplest of tasks with out getting a consultant/auditor involved and they cost a fortune only to tell you want you already know but without their stamp of approval you can't proceed.

I used the example of a coop. I can't build a multistory coop and not care about the waste of my stock or get a monopoly.

Of course you can. Large multi nations are forcing these kind of things to happen, the only thing stopping you from doing it is they won't let you eat into their profits.

Colmustard

ScumLord wrote: »

It was open to anyone because anyone could be a lender. There wasn't as many people that where willing to lend because the people that needed the money probably couldn't pay it back. Unless you had something they wanted and would use the loan they knew you couldn't pay back as a way of seizing your assets.


It's taking advantage of them more like. Child labour is popular in Africa, people get the smallest wages so we can have cheap products, they aren't really seeing the full benefit and are losing their land and resources to international corporations.

There's also nowhere for them to be lifted to. They can't come up to our level because we consume way to much and if they joined the party we'd have to give up some of our wealth which we won't be doing. Africa is being plundered not helped.

Just like Chinese people are being taken advantage of by their own government to appease our greed and unwillingness to pay a decent price for our products. We don't mind that people have to work in close to slave conditions if we get cheap tat.

The regulation is a money spinner in it's own right. You can't complete he simplest of tasks with out getting a consultant/auditor involved and they cost a fortune only to tell you want you already know but without their stamp of approval you can't proceed.

Of course you can. Large multi nations are forcing these kind of things to happen, the only thing stopping you from doing it is they won't let you eat into their profits.

You can say what you want about exploitation and sweat shops, in truth I worked in one here in the 80s, it was a kip and the money was poor but I was better off and I will admit I knew the situation wasn't permanent, I was moving on and up.

Free markets don't exist they are all regulated and it is the regulation that tries to level the playing field, it is necessary. As for Africa, finally they are lifting themselves out of poverty out of the top 10 growing economies in the world, 7 are in Africa, they embraced free market capitalism and all are benefiting.

Do you really believe the Chinese were better off under communism???

Chuck Stone

crackcrack30 wrote: »

(To have)
A society where everyone worked for free....:eek: ..but everything you needed was free...?

A kind of barter but on a country wide 21st centuary scale......

The best way to make a barter system efficient would be, instead of bartering bulky goods against each other, having paper IUO's of a pre determined value - say a 20 unit IOU was worth a fraction of a piece of a precious metal.. oh, like say.. gold or something. Then those IOU's could be exchanged for goods and services..

wait...

Colmustard wrote: »

they embraced free market capitalism and all are benefiting.

The free market is a myth. There's nothing 'free' about Capitalism.. the state and the private sector go hand in glove.

Evil socialist roads and virtuous private cars for example.

ScumLord

Colmustard wrote: »

You can say what you want about exploitation and sweat shops, in truth I worked in one here in the 80s, it was a kip and the money was poor but I was better off and I will admit I knew the situation wasn't permanent, I was moving on and up.

That's not going to happen in China because they have a two tier class system. People from the country are second class citizens that don't have the same access to education as those in the city. It's not that the education isn't available to them, their not allowed access to it. Where did you work in a sweat shop?

African countries do have a better chance because they're not coming out of a communist regime but African countries are known for their corruption and the wealth isn't being shared out.

Do you really believe the Chinese were better off under communism???

China is still a communist country.

Colmustard

ScumLord wrote: »

That's not going to happen in China because they have a two tier class system. People from the country are second class citizens that don't have the same access to education as those in the city. It's not that the education isn't available to them, their not allowed access to it. Where did you work in a sweat shop?


African countries do have a better chance because they're not coming out of a communist regime but African countries are known for their corruption and the wealth isn't being shared out.

China is still a communist country.

China is no more a Communist country then America is. It is an extreme capitalist country with few regulations and very little workers rights that even makes America shudder, they are only communist in name.

Even if it is a 2 tier system they are still better off with income levels rising right across China and it did so very rapidly. Africa is still corrupt (as is China) but there is still more wealth trickling down then ever before on that continent and in China.

There is an alternative to capitalism and it was tried for half a century and it left economic wastelands with no exception.

Vohnsom Hofmee

"As an idler I pledge...to strive not to work ridiculous hours, especially not for some corporate wankster. To strive to eat nice stuff that doesn't go ping at the end. I will not let stress intrude upon me where possible. Eat more home grown veg. To procreate and make idle babies. To eat slowly. To drink real ales frequently. To sing more. To smile more. To step off the 9-5 merry-go-round before I get queasy. To amuse myself in public as well as in private. To strive to amuse others as well as myself. To know that work is merely for paying the bills. To always remember that friends are a source of strength. To enjoy the simple things. To spend quality time in nature. To spend less with big businesses and corporations. To make lots of nice things instead. To go against the grain. To strive to make a difference, to the world and people around you...however small. To be happy!"

ScumLord

Colmustard wrote: »

China is no more a Communist country then America is. It is an extreme capitalist country with few regulations and very little workers rights that even makes America shudder, they are only communist in name.

They're neither or both depending on what suits the unelected government at that particular time. Businesses also have no rights and the state controls everything. It is communist in how the government can control everything and pull the rug out from under anyone if it's suits the states agenda. That's not capitalism.

Even if it is a 2 tier system they are still better off with income levels rising right across China

Chinese cities maybe but anyone living out the country is still living in medieval times, and the country folk that do move to the city to work have absolutely no chance of moving up the ranks, they forever remain second class citizens labelled as mucksavages no matter how many generations work on factory floors. For the most part their held prisoners to their jobs.

Chinas also pretty bad at manufacturing, where I work we've given up on importing Chinese products because everything we've gotten from there is rubbish and ends up costing twice as much as the equivalent high quality version from either Europe or the states. Of course you've no recourse with China because they simply don't care about their reputation and a company you buy something off today has changed it's name and started making something else next week.

and it did so very rapidly. Africa is still corrupt (as is China) but there is still more wealth trickling down then ever before on that continent and in China.

China and Africa import skilled labour, the locals are buying into the American dream that if they work hard now they can pay for a collage education for their children down the line but I don't see it happening.

There is an alternative to capitalism and it was tried for half a century and it left economic wastelands with no exception.

There are many, many alternatives to capitalism but the evil communism is always waved around to scare people away from even thinking of trying anything different.

Indubitable

hmm...this idea is pushing the boundaries of the definition of insane.

crazy cabbage

Indubitable wrote: »

hmm...this idea is pushing the boundaries of the definition of insane.

At first i thought that too but it really isn't. It is common sence.

Work at what you love doing. What you dont need give away. What you do need you take.

No need for paper to exchange hands. This paper only has value if everyone agrees to let it have value

People love to complicate things

And i dont see this as communisum. And i dont really see china as communist. They might call themselves communist but they arn't really in my opinion.

crazy cabbage

Eurovisionmad wrote: »

But once again where would the incentive to work be?

Was this not alread answered

'You are not getting the point of this type of society. This society would only work if and when people have a set of values that dont involve power and control, money and material possosions. In my view the perfect society would have a value system that transcended all that. People would value family and community and there life. They would work at what they love as would everyone else. People would freely give there creations (be it bread or crops or book or hens or eggs ect) becouse they would also get what they needed. And for the person who said why would you work. That is the wrong way to look at it. You would do something that you love. I dont see that as work.'

bogwalrus

A topic close to my Heart!

Here is my master plan scenario:

Small but modern self sufficient communities of maybe 5/6 houses built on land that has a nearby river if possible.

The houses are not next to each other so there is plenty Privacy.

These houses have all the modern eco tech like solar panels, rain water capturing tanks etc

The houses are also connected (via grid) to two large wind turbines and also a mill turbine on the nearby stream.

Each house has their own veg patch and can do with it whatever they want. Some households might go all the way and use their urine/poop from their toilets to feed plants etc.....(not me) There will also be a giant Green house/arboritum for exotic fruit plants etc.


In the above model you have neighbours that are like-minded and might just take care of your dog while on holidays. There are no walls dividing you from your neighbours so its a nice intimate community where you can also have your privacy.


How this can happen for cheap:

The five households form a co-op and purchase the land, houses (from one contractor), wind turbines etc as a group making it significantly cheaper.

I priced it all out:

1. 12 acre land in Cork county with stream and forest/woodland bit = 240k (2010)
   
2. 5 two story amazing log cabins from a norwegian contractor = 545k (2010) incl delivery, toilet/showers etc and all labour, everything)
   
3. Architect, landscape gardener, plumbers, electricians and separate surveyor to keep an eye on things etc etc = 45k
   
4. Wind turbines,solars and mills incl other eco stuff= 225k

Working out to be just a tad over 200K per household for all this.

There will always be a few other expenses but even if its 300K i think a bargain deal for this lifestyle don't you?


So who is with me? Me and my partner are really nice people=)

kincsem

A bit tricky if you were manufacturing combine harvesters and your buyers wanted to give you nail varnish, bread, electric cable, gym membership, tarmac.

Chuck Stone

bogwalrus wrote: »

Me and my partner are really nice people=)

Pics or GTFO.

crazy cabbage

bogwalrus wrote: »

A topic close to my Heart!

Here is my master plan scenario:

Small but modern self sufficient communities of maybe 5/6 houses built on land that has a nearby river if possible.

The houses are not next to each other so there is plenty Privacy.

These houses have all the modern eco tech like solar panels, rain water capturing tanks etc

The houses are also connected (via grid) to two large wind turbines and also a mill turbine on the nearby stream.

Each house has their own veg patch and can do with it whatever they want. Some households might go all the way and use their urine/poop from their toilets to feed plants etc.....(not me) There will also be a giant Green house/arboritum for exotic fruit plants etc.


In the above model you have neighbours that are like-minded and might just take care of your dog while on holidays. There are no walls dividing you from your neighbours so its a nice intimate community where you can also have your privacy.


How this can happen for cheap:

The five households form a co-op and purchase the land, houses (from one contractor), wind turbines etc as a group making it significantly cheaper.

I priced it all out:

1. 12 acre land in Cork county with stream and forest/woodland bit = 240k (2010)
2. 5 two story amazing log cabins from a norwegian contractor = 545k (2010) incl delivery, toilet/showers etc and all labour, everything)
3. Architect, landscape gardener, plumbers, electricians and separate surveyor to keep an eye on things etc etc = 45k
4. Wind turbines,solars and mills incl other eco stuff= 225k

Working out to be just a tad over 200K per household for all this.

There will always be a few other expenses but even if its 300K i think a bargain deal for this lifestyle don't you?


So who is with me? Me and my partner are really nice people=)

this sounds like a good idea. well nearly the best we can do with the current system and will be doing something sililar at some stage.

When i leave college i plan on doing alot of WWOOFing. wwoofing stand for world wide opportunites on organic farms. Basicly i would work for 4-6 hours a day on a farm, can be any type of farm from beehives to veg to goats to vegy patch to winemaking to horses and any size from a hector in urban enviroment to 500 hectors of land in the middle of nowhere. Some are very well set up while some have no running water and no electricity. So in return for my 5ish hours of work i get accomodation and all my food as well as learning about organic farming. no money ever changes hands. alot of these are community based. It is a mutual exchange. Young people who want to travel are the ones that normally do this staying an average of a month or two on a farm

I think you idea is nearly the best we can do with our current system but it is way out of the price range of most people.

I love your idea though and hope that it goes well for you. You should check out wwoofing but as a host if you do go ahead with this. Wish you the best of luck

crackcrack30

kincsem wrote: »

A bit tricky if you were manufacturing combine harvesters and your buyers wanted to give you nail varnish, bread, electric cable, gym membership, tarmac.

If a community need a combine they request one from the manufacturing plant in hungary if the plant in hungary want steel they request it from the miners in germany if the miners want bread or fish they request it from the farmer,shop or trawler men, if the trawlermen request diesel they request it from the oil company, if the oil company want tarmac they open the yellow pages.....ect ect........

No one owns anything...........therefore nobody expects anything....on this scale it would require organization which.....thinking about it... is already in place i.e ordering just no payment.....

kincsem

Ok. I want a Ferrari.

crazy cabbage

kincsem wrote: »

Ok. I want a Ferrari.

Why? For what purpose? And whatever purpose you do want a ferrari can something else do the same job?

Again read my comment on a change in the values of society away from money - material possiosions - power - control ect

ScumLord

kincsem wrote: »

Ok. I want a Ferrari.

Build one.

Community's can work together to develop and build the things they need.

bogwalrus

crazy cabbage wrote: »

this sounds like a good idea. well nearly the best we can do with the current system and will be doing something sililar at some stage.

When i leave college i plan on doing alot of WWOOFing. wwoofing stand for world wide opportunites on organic farms. Basicly i would work for 4-6 hours a day on a farm, can be any type of farm from beehives to veg to goats to vegy patch to winemaking to horses and any size from a hector in urban enviroment to 500 hectors of land in the middle of nowhere. Some are very well set up while some have no running water and no electricity. So in return for my 5ish hours of work i get accomodation and all my food as well as learning about organic farming. no money ever changes hands. alot of these are community based. It is a mutual exchange. Young people who want to travel are the ones that normally do this staying an average of a month or two on a farm

I think you idea is nearly the best we can do with our current system but it is way out of the price range of most people.

I love your idea though and hope that it goes well for you. You should check out wwoofing but as a host if you do go ahead with this. Wish you the best of luck

Yeah a mate of mine a few years back went working on farms around Europe. I'm nearly 30 so I will need to be making my "life plans" soon.

My community is an alternative to living in a housing estate and far healthier both mentally and physically. I used to work in the North Side of Cork and i was always amazed at how good the communities were there. Neighbours hung out and shared sugar, These were things you wouldn't see in the southside where I also lived.


I would also like to mention that I had talked to my accountant and tsb bank about mortgages for individual households. It is possible for each hous to pay their bit separate but it was very complicated.

The best solution was to treat the whole project as an investment of sorts. If i can remember the rate to pay off the whole project was much cheaper then a personal mortgage. I had priced it at a payment of €450 pm over 30years per household.Bargain in my eyes.

The other thing was to make a tv series in the community about sustainable farming and all that but tbh there is a point where things will just get too hippyish.

crazy cabbage

ScumLord wrote: »

Build one.

Community's can work together to develop and build the things they need.

Agree but i cant thing of any reason that a community would need to have a Ferrari to me that is just for people with a massive pumped up ego.
Like you said Anything that the comunity needs can be built in the community but no idea what a ferrari would do for anyone.

BornToKill

crazy cabbage wrote: »

You are not getting the point of this type of society. This society would only work if and when people have a set of values that dont involve power and control, money and material possosions.

So it will never work then, is what you're saying?

BornToKill

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Becouse in my view of a perfect society people wouldn't feel the need for material possisions aside from the what they need plus a little.

Hasn't this thread been done before:-

"The ideal Ireland that we would have, the Ireland that we dreamed of, would be the home of a people who valued material wealth only as a basis for right living, of a people who, satisfied with frugal comfort, devoted their leisure to the things of the spirit – a land whose countryside would be bright with cosy homesteads, whose fields and villages would be joyous with the sounds of industry, with the romping of sturdy children, the contest of athletic youths and the laughter of happy maidens, whose firesides would be forums for the wisdom of serene old age."

crazy cabbage

bogwalrus wrote: »

Yeah a mate of mine a few years back went working on farms around Europe. I'm nearly 30 so I will need to be making my "life plans" soon.

My community is an alternative to living in a housing estate and far healthier both mentally and physically. I used to work in the North Side of Cork and i was always amazed at how good the communities were there. Neighbours hung out and shared sugar, These were things you wouldn't see in the southside where I also lived.


I would also like to mention that I had talked to my accountant and tsb bank about mortgages for individual households. It is possible for each hous to pay their bit separate but it was very complicated.

The best solution was to treat the whole project as an investment of sorts. If i can remember the rate to pay off the whole project was much cheaper then a personal mortgage. I had priced it at a payment of €450 pm over 30years per household.Bargain in my eyes.

The other thing was to make a tv series in the community about sustainable farming and all that but tbh there is a point where things will just get too hippyish.

Really like the idea and do hope that you get it off the ground. Have you found anyone else that is interested?

My grandad got one the them houses that you are talking about (think it was from norway). Is like a cabbon. It arrives on the back of lorries and everything is included. Only difference is that they didn't put it up. Saved him a load of money. Himself, myself and a few other family members put it up. There was very detailed insructions with it. Was like building lego. And it wasn't one of them prebuild houses. The walls were these long logs. Each log a number and corsponded to piece on instructions. Was actully handy enough once we got into it.

Would you consider letting them put up one and then building the rest yourselves. Might save alot of money and will bring ye together as a community. Then if ye ever want to build more houses in the area ye can build yourselves becouse ye would have the skill set needed. Would also help greatly with your farming becouse there is always stuff the needs to be build and projects that need doing


I would be weary enough about going into a project like this with total strangers. Just make sure that you know everyone well before ye start this. Maby go to a wwoofers community somewhere to see if ye can hack the lifestyle. I know that is seems great now but it always does. You might have other ideas when you are out in the garden covered in sh1t for a cuple of hours a day and spend the rest trying weed the veggy patch (becouse there is alot of weeding needed)

ScumLord

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Agree but i cant thing of any reason that a community would need to have a Ferrari to me that is just for people with a massive pumped up ego.
Like you said Anything that the comunity needs can be built in the community but no idea what a ferrari would do for anyone.

Building high end stuff like that is fun, it's also going to teach you a hell of a lot about the limits of engineering and bring about other insights into building better normal cars. Remember that most formula 1 developments eventually filter down to average cars in one way or another.

Building a Ferrari would be a fun hobby more than anything though. Leisure time that leads to more leisure time. Plus it would be a team effort that would be good for communities to go through

crackcrack30

What was the result - possible or not possible

crazy cabbage

BornToKill wrote: »

So it will never work then, is what you're saying?

Nope that isn't what i am saying

evolving_doors

Barter requires the 'double coincidence of wants'... statistically very difficult to manage.. i.e. I want an Ice Cream/ you want a pig...I have a pig and you have an ice cream.. wow what a coincidence... no sir that's a double coincidence.. even more wow..

probably in 100 years time it'll work when we're all plugged in Borgs

this guy (Link Here) did it although he got greedy and traded up from a paper clip to a house. It was a big paper clip to start out with though.

Kyle-macdonald1.jpg

BornToKill

Armelodie wrote: »

Barter requires the 'double coincidence of wants'... statistically very difficult to manage.. i.e. I want an Ice Cream/ you want a pig...I have a pig and you have an ice cream

Yeah, and the guy with the pig is going to need change unless that's one hell of an ice-cream. If only there was some kind of a token that could be given to represent the difference in value of the two goods. Maybe paper of some sort that would represent a value and which could be given as 'change' with the ice-cream. Perhaps one day there will be a system of this kind ...

crazy cabbage

BornToKill wrote: »

Yeah, and the guy with the pig is going to need change unless that's one hell of an ice-cream. If only there was some kind of a token that could be given to represent the difference in value of the two goods. Maybe paper of some sort that would represent a value and which could be given as 'change' with the ice-cream. Perhaps one day there will be a system of this kind ...

I dont really agree with the bartering system

if that person doesn't need a pig then why doesn't he just give it away? It is doing him no real good and it might help someone else.
In this system that is what people would do. Give and take what they need and dont need freely