Views on the HL Maths bonus 25 points

randylonghorn

christopherson wrote: »

This "certain type of intelligence", is the only type of intelligence that really matters.

Sez you!!

Ah laddie! You're either awful young or trolling for a reaction ... or both!


(@lemon: don't lower your own standards and rise to him, that's what he wants!)

Togepi

christopherson wrote: »

This "certain type of intelligence", is the only type of intelligence that really matters.

Supermensch

There was a good article there on the Economist, talking about inflation in areas outside of money, for example the sizes of cups of coffee in Starbucks. People getting over 600 points reminded me of this.

But anyway, as other people have said, it is unfair that someone should be at a disadvantage in applying for course not related to maths if they had sat the ordinary level paper.

Bbbbolger

My situation is that I repeated this year. In 5th year i began HL Maths and stuck with it until 6th year when I dropped down. I dropped because to achieve a grade which would affect my points I would've had to decrease study in my other points subjects. When I repeated I was left in a situation where now HL Maths was worth 25 points more. I know I had the ability to do it but one year with a new course just wouldn't have been possible for me. I've now missed out on my course by 5/10 points and am left to wonder what might have been.

I think a much fairer way of doing bonus points would be to award them to students who get up to a C3 in HL Maths. After that grade the majority of people would've chosen HL Maths anyway and obviously have a natural ability for the subject. It is right to reward taking on extra work and succeeding but not to reward someone for having a natural talent in a subject. If we're just rewarding natural mathematical talent, why not all the core subjects? Is my A in English or Irish less deserving of a reward than someones C in Maths?

Liveforrugby

christopherson wrote: »

This "certain type of intelligence", is the only type of intelligence that really matters.

As much as everyone disagrees I think we can all secretly agree that the man is speaking the truth. the only problem is that it would be politically incorrect to admit to said statement

randylonghorn

Liveforrugby wrote: »

As much as everyone disagrees I think we can all secretly agree that the man is speaking the truth. the only problem is that it would be politically incorrect to admit to said statement

Um ... I don't!!

And that's not because I was poor at maths, so it's not any kind of sour grapes ... I did HL for LC and indeed took maths in first year in Uni.

Bbbbolger wrote: »

I think a much fairer way of doing bonus points would be to award them to students who get up to a C3 in HL Maths. After that grade the majority of people would've chosen HL Maths anyway and obviously have a natural ability for the subject.

So ... we encourage people to just do the bare minimum to just pass, even if they could do better, because they will be end up getting as many points out of it?

I'm not trying to be a smartass, but I'm sure you can see the problem?

Bbbbolger

I understand what you're saying. But since one of the main reasons behind offering bonus points for HL Maths was to get more people to attempt it, wouldn't the people who would be getting C3's and lower (the people who might consider dropping to OL) be the main targets of the scheme? Its not like we were in fear of having no applicants for HL Maths at all. The people getting high grades would more than likely have chosen it either way. I just think 100 points is incentive enough for the people who are already good at it. You'd still be encouraging more students to take up HL while preventing inflation of points in pretty much all competetive courses.

One of the main reasons people drop from HL is the fear of failing and therefore not being able to attend college. By boosting the points of the lower grades it makes staying at HL much more appealing. IMO boosting the points of those getting A's is just over-rewarding. It also leads to the potential problem of points for some courses breaking the 600 point ceiling. Courses like dentistry could very possbly rise above 600 in the coming years, making a good grade in HL Maths a pre-requisite, despite the course being completely non-mathematical.

Amirani

Bbbbolger wrote: »

I understand what you're saying. But since one of the main reasons behind offering bonus points for HL Maths was to get more people to attempt it, wouldn't the people who would be getting C3's and lower (the people who might consider dropping to OL) be the main targets of the scheme? Its not like we were in fear of having no applicants for HL Maths at all. The people getting high grades would more than likely have chosen it either way. I just think 100 points is incentive enough for the people who are already good at it. You'd still be encouraging more students to take up HL while preventing inflation of points in pretty much all competetive courses.

You're proposing giving bonus points to those who get C3s and lower. Surely you can see that this would create a situation where it's advantageous to get a C3 rather than a C2, obviously an impractical situation.

Regarding bonus points in general - Employers in general are demanding a work force with greater quantitative skills, not people who speak Irish fluently or are good at woodwork. Thus, it makes sense to ensure that a higher percentage of our college population has a good standing in maths, which is effectively what this does.

randylonghorn

Bbbbolger wrote: »

I understand what you're saying. But since one of the main reasons behind offering bonus points for HL Maths was to get more people to attempt it, wouldn't the people who would be getting C3's and lower (the people who might consider dropping to OL) be the main targets of the scheme?

Oh, I understand where you're coming from; my point is that your solution would have undesired side-effects too, albeit slightly different ones from the current scheme.

That's the problem with a lot of these schemes; politicians don't think through the likely consequences, they're just looking for the quick soundbite, the spot on the evening news ... and even if someone tries to point the consequences out to them, they're drowned out by the yes-men.

Bbbbolger wrote: »

One of the main reasons people drop from HL is the fear of failing and therefore not being able to attend college.

Someone suggested a different solution in this forum a few months back. Hold an "Ordinary Level" exam for those doing HL in February, say. Once they pass, that grade is "parked" in the system. If they pass HL in June, that grade / level replaces the Feb one; if they don't, the Feb grade activates and they have at least a pass or better at OL.

End of fear. No bonus points necessary.

But you see ... that would cost money to implement!

NiallSparky wrote: »

Regarding bonus points in general - Employers in general are demanding a work force with greater quantitative skills, not people who speak Irish fluently or are good at woodwork. Thus, it makes sense to ensure that a higher percentage of our college population has a good standing in maths, which is effectively what this does.

It does other stuff though as well though, Niall, as has been discussed further up the thread.

By the way, employers and FORFÁS are also highlighting the need for better foreign language skills and more people doing sciences.

Will they get bonus points next year?

HeaneyBabe

I can't believe that some are saying that basically the people who do HL maths are the ones who should be going to college because they're intelligent and work the hardest? Madness.

For the language I do, I worked my ass off to get the a1. I read books in the language, most of the time not having a clue what was written. I underlined every single verb tense in these books. When I had run out of opinion pieces after doing them all, I went to the French papers, translated the title and did the opinion pieces in the language I studied. I even went to the country alone a week before the orals, stayed with a family with no English and spoke the language.

Tell me that isn't working hard? I know honours maths is difficult, but just because you do it doesn't make you smarter than others who don't have the ability for HL maths. People's talents lie in different subjects.

Dwellingdweller

Patchy~ wrote: »

The best people get to college anyway. That's kind of why it's done on points and nothing else.

That's total BS. To get into University in Ireland all you have to do is do well academically. You could be an obese c**t who's never left the house in his life or contributed anything to society and you'll still get in. In the US, to get into a top university, you need to be active on an extracurricular basis, do community service, have something exceptional about you that makes you "the best". It's not like that in Ireland, anybody (not just 'the best'!) can get into the best colleges (TCD etc) as long as they do well academically, and it doesn't matter about anything else.

NiallSparky wrote: »

You're proposing giving bonus points to those who get C3s and lower. Surely you can see that this would create a situation where it's advantageous to get a C3 rather than a C2, obviously an impractical situation.

Regarding bonus points in general - Employers in general are demanding a work force with greater quantitative skills, not people who speak Irish fluently or are good at woodwork. Thus, it makes sense to ensure that a higher percentage of our college population has a good standing in maths, which is effectively what this does.

Going off topic here a little, but if we base all of our aspirations and goals in life upon what 'Employers in general are demanding' the world's going to end up a pretty sh***y place. IMO.

Chuchoter

I thought the bonus points were a good idea, however I think it should only be for a C2 or C1 grade and up. Scraping a pass on a simplified course does not merit 70 points.

The other massive problem I didn't anticipate was EVERYONE PASSED? That 97% pass rate is an absolute joke. If you're using the bell curve we spent so much time learning about, don't just abandon it to make the DOE happy. It will be the fact that so many passed, not the bonus points, that will send the system completely haywire this year.

Orange juice

I think we all deserved the extra points!
I spent the most time on maths because of it! Maths is way more time consuming than any other subject which is why the points even out! I know if I had done pass maths and know I wasn't counting it I would have had more time for other subjects and gotten a better result in them!
I really do think it evens out and also gives a strong incentive to stick with honours! Lots of people are able for honours but don't bother because it's not worth it! Last year we had 9 people doing honours maths and this year there were 19!

Canard

Dwellingdweller wrote: »

That's total BS. To get into University in Ireland all you have to do is do well academically. You could be an obese c**t who's never left the house in his life or contributed anything to society and you'll still get in. In the US, to get into a top university, you need to be active on an extracurricular basis, do community service, have something exceptional about you that makes you "the best". It's not like that in Ireland, anybody (not just 'the best'!) can get into the best colleges (TCD etc) as long as they do well academically, and it doesn't matter about anything else.

Eh, I think you took that up wrong...I didn't mean the best people in an all-round sense. I was replying to a post which stated that we need "the best" people getting to do science/maths courses, i.e. those getting the highest points, and I was pointing out that that is what happens.

Dapics

A system needs to be in place for those students who simply do not have the ability/capacity to process and use the Higher Level Maths curriculum.

Why not reserve a number of places in certain courses for those doing ordinary level maths? ( only in certain courses not related to maths such as Law which is around 500 points in UCD)

Some may say that's unfair but it's a bit fairer than what's currently in place. Or how about the CAO processes those doing Ordinary maths in such a way that their points are subsidised?
I dunno I'm only shooting out random idea's. But at the end of the day the true reason for the 25 point maths increase is indeed down to politics and how easy it is to implement.

dcam

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Pretty typical of the "barstool brigade". Does honours maths.,..ergo...intelligent.

- Have a google for Gardners Intelligences and broaden your mind.


The LC is not perfect but it is fair. It would take a huge overhaul to for example allow different points for each individual course, depending on subjects studied.

The fact is that technology / science is the main driving force of the economy - a long way clear of say agriculture or contruction so it is imperative that we have a consistent supply of top quality gradates.

This IS where the jobs lie and there is a problem at third level where people are making a jump from OL Maths (very similar to JC HL) to Honours level and higher. So we should be encouraging people to persist with the higher level. The 25 marks was available to ANY student if they so wished , plenty were happy to remain at OL.

So again while you argue that its unfair to students who are excellent linguistically and can easily attain an A in English/ French /Irish, I think you 'd then also have to say its unfair on the student who will do all ordinary level subjects but would be exceptional and an A1 student at P.E. if that was on the curriculum .

Would just like to point out that the agricultural sector has always been a major source of income for the country and it is only getting stronger. I'm not saying give extra points for ag science by the way just that many people are returning to the land and that places in ag science colleges are becoming increasingly competitive. Technology and science have been contributing to the country in recent years but having said this many factories which would have employed people in these sectors are closing while agriculture is only on the rise.

Also a good knowledge of languages is becoming increasingly important as the world becomes more interdependent. Therefore I don't see why people should have a problem with there being bonus points for languages since they are already there for maths. In my opinion though a system with no bonus points in any subjects would be the fairest unless you are actually going to do a course at third level which relates to a particular LC subject.

Canard

Dapics wrote: »

A system needs to be in place for those students who simply do not have the ability/capacity to process and use the Higher Level Maths curriculum.

Why not reserve a number of places in certain courses for those doing ordinary level maths? ( only in certain courses not related to maths such as Law which is around 500 points in UCD)

Some may say that's unfair but it's a bit fairer than what's currently in place. Or how about the CAO processes those doing Ordinary maths in such a way that their points are subsidised?
I dunno I'm only shooting out random idea's. But at the end of the day the true reason for the 25 point maths increase is indeed down to politics and how easy it is to implement.

Well the problem there is that people with lower points will get in ahead of people whose points without bonus points would've gotten them their course, but who did HL maths just because they could, which is really unfair. In the end courses like Law go to the highest scorers and you don't need HL maths in the same way that you don't need to do any subjects in particular to score 550, so I think it's fair really.

dcam wrote: »

Would just like to point out that the agricultural sector has always been a major source of income for the country and it is only getting stronger. I'm not saying give extra points for ag science by the way just that many people are returning to the land and that places in ag science colleges are becoming increasingly competitive. Technology and science have been contributing to the country in recent years but having said this many factories which would have employed people in these sectors are closing while agriculture is only on the rise.

Also a good knowledge of languages is becoming increasingly important as the world becomes more interdependent. Therefore I don't see why people should have a problem with there being bonus points for languages since they are already there for maths. In my opinion though a system with no bonus points in any subjects would be the fairest unless you are actually going to do a course at third level which relates to a particular LC subject.

I think there should be extra points for languages but probably not 25, considering almost everyone does a language, most do it at HL and some even do more than 1.

I don't really think it's fair to give the points to people who don't plan to do maths in college if I'm honest...the incentive was to get more doing science/maths but obviously if they're just trying to scrape a pass they don't want to. Though I guess it might cause a few to realize they have more of an aptitude than they thought, which would be nice.

afrocod

Well I sat as an external candidate and the change to the syllabus really cost me a lot of marks, so I consider this the government saying "Sorry for ****in' thing's up for you there... here's 25 points"... Well deserved in my opinion...

HeaneyBabe

I do agree that the HL maths people work extremely hard and deserve a reward for
it, its just not fair on people that have done ordinary level competing for college places

Adventure

Bonus points should only be applicable to relevant courses like Engineering, Science or Actuarary etc. If applying for courses like Law or French, the points should not apply. I thought the whole idea of introducing bonus points for HL Maths was to encourage more people to: 1. Take up the subject and 2. Persue further education in the field of maths and science.

The bonus points will just lead to points inlfation and prevent some apt or competent students gaining places in certain courses.

Canard

Adventure wrote: »

Bonus points should only be applicable to relevant courses like Engineering, Science or Actuarary etc. If applying for courses like Law or French, the points should not apply. I thought the whole idea of introducing bonus points for HL Maths was to encourage more people to: 1. Take up the subject and 2. Persue further education in the field of maths and science.

The bonus points will just lead to points inlfation and prevent some apt or competent students gaining places in certain courses.

Yes, but then they're pointless because everyone gets them. I suppose it stops people with 6 A1s and a B1 in maths getting actuarial maths over someone with an A1 in it, but...they should just raise the minimum grade if they want that.

bluugirl

I don't think its fair for people like me who, no matter how much study they put in for maths,along with their parents struggling to pay maths grinds for them, and after all that just barely getting a pass in ordinary level.I know what its like to genuinely not understand maths and the people in my year who already were destined to get 600 points and understood maths without much effort have gotten even more points.I don't like how they are punishing the people who at times are putting in more of an effort to just pass the subject at ordinary level,its just not fair!.
I am quite frankly terrified of the effect this is going to have on cao points, just my two cents!

Daniel S

Adventure wrote: »

Bonus points should only be applicable to relevant courses like Engineering, Science or Actuarary etc. If applying for courses like Law or French, the points should not apply. I thought the whole idea of introducing bonus points for HL Maths was to encourage more people to: 1. Take up the subject and 2. Persue further education in the field of maths and science.

The bonus points will just lead to points inlfation and prevent some apt or competent students gaining places in certain courses.

That's a bit pointless really, people doing engineering (and similar courses) already need a C3 in HL maths. There's no advantage, it just put up engineering courses by 25 points.

The idea is to make the whole country better at maths. It's to give mathematically minded people a boost when getting to college, hopefully then getting them better jobs. Currently, we have people in powerful positions who aren't up to it because of their lack of ability in maths.

In 2010, there were 39 TDs who are/were teachers or lecturers, 16 lawyers, 19 farmers. In October 2011, the number of primary and secondary teachers in the Dail fell marginally from 32 to 30, teaching is still by far the largest occupation among TDs.

"Despite the clamour for more TDs with knowledge of economic affairs, the numbers from a business background actually only increased from 22 to 25."


In a country that's in pure shíte at the moment, we have around 25 TD's who have some idea what they're talking about out of 166. Not acceptable in my books.



I know it's not the reason why bonus points for HL maths was brought in, but it's the reason I support it.

bscm

I agree with the incentive to take HL Maths. But not with the bonus points method.

They also shouldn't have changed the course and introduced the bonus points in such a short timespan.

If they want to keep up "bonus points", then turn it into staggered "bonus percentage". Anyone between 40-50% gets an extra X% of their percentage grade, 50-60% get Y% extra, each bonus mark getting progressively smaller as you reach 100%... That way, less point inflation and still an incentive.

Daniel S

bluugirl wrote: »

I don't think its fair for people like me who, no matter how much study they put in for maths,along with their parents struggling to pay maths grinds for them, and after all that just barely getting a pass in ordinary level.I know what its like to genuinely not understand maths and the people in my year who already were destined to get 600 points and understood maths without much effort have gotten even more points.I don't like how they are punishing the people who at times are putting in more of an effort to just pass the subject at ordinary level,its just not fair!.
I am quite frankly terrified of the effect this is going to have on cao points, just my two cents!

If you're struggling to pass ordinary level, I take it you're not going for a maths based course? Chances are, you'll have very few people with HL maths going for a non maths based course. If you think you passed maths, it isn't a requirement for your course and you did enough in other subjects to get the points, I wouldn't worry about it.

dmca93

I did it but didn't put a whole pile of effort into it. In the end it got me five more points than I would have.. 575 instead of 570. I don't really think it is fair but you could look at it this way... The people doing it are most likely going to be the people that would have got there respective points anyway. I really feels it's just raising the points but at the end of the day not really knocking someday out who would have other wise got the course, does that make sense?

Kristofferson

HeaneyBabe wrote: »

I do agree that the HL maths people work extremely hard and deserve a reward for
it, its just not fair on people that have done ordinary level competing for college places

Life is not fair. We dont live in a world with leprechauns and magical gold. The sooner you realize this the better. Those who are superior succeed.

biohaiid

Kristofferson wrote: »

Life is not fair. We dont live in a world with leprechauns and magical gold. The sooner you realize this the better. Those who are superior succeed.

Doing HL maths for the LC doesn't make you superior.
What about all the other people who did HL Irish, English, French etc ..?
I did all HL subjects except for maths and there's no way I'm gonna feel inferior for that, and neither should anybody else in the same situation.

Sheedy07

biohaiid wrote: »

Doing HL maths for the LC doesn't make you superior.
What about all the other people who did HL Irish, English, French etc ..?
I did all HL subjects except for maths and there's no way I'm gonna feel inferior for that, and neither should anybody else in the same situation.

But that said I dont think you (a general you) can then complain about the bonus points as at the end of the day it was your decision to take ordinary, ok it can be argued that it is unfair in ways but the idea was to increase the no. of people taking honours maths and it succeeded in doing that! But no system is perfect!

leaveiton

I'm on the fence about the bonus points, but either way I think 25 is far too many. I'd be in favour of maybe 10 or 15 extra points, or as someone pointed out above, a weighted system where you got a certain amount depending on your percentage.

Although just as a sort of aside, one thing I want to point out is that just because someone does HL maths, it doesn't mean that they automatically have 25 points added on to whatever they would have gotten anyway. Even just in my case, it meant that I got 15 more, as I had 2 A1s, an A2 and 3 B1s, with a B3 in maths. Before I got my results I thought that I wouldn't even be getting any benefit from the bonus points because I thought I got a low grade. I know people are probably aware of that already but it seems to be sort of a common misconception.