Views on the HL Maths bonus 25 points

jack.h

In my opinion the bonus 25 points for maths is good.
Reasons why i think the bonus points are good are:
1.The goal of the bonus points was to get more people doing higher level maths and it achieved this and this lead to a 35% increase in the number of students doing HL maths.
2. It helps students who are good at maths but are weaker at language and rote learning subjects such as geography,business..etc. For example if a student is good at maths but poor at languages they are nearly starting of the LC at a disadvantage as it is mandatory to do English,Irish and they will most likely need another language subject as well.

Personally the bonus points are of no concern to me as i am doing a maths based course in college and i am fairly sure everyone doing the course will get the bonus points and so make them obsolete.

On a separate note i completely disagree with those who think HL Irish should get bonus points as some people already get bonus points in their exams for doing them through Irish which in my opinion is far more unfair not to mention pointless than the bonus 25 points for HL maths. Maths has uses in a wide range of sectors and teaches a skill set which is highly desired by most employers while Irish has practically no use in any sector and in my opinion should be made optional from at least after the JC and for those who say how people died fighting for it, i don't care just because some people fought for something does not make it important e.g. the crusades/religion.

Roniboney

jack.h wrote: »

In my opinion the bonus 25 points for maths is good.
Reasons why i think the bonus points are good are:
1.The goal of the bonus points was to get more people doing higher level maths and it achieved this and this lead to a 35% increase in the number of students doing HL maths.
2. It helps students who are good at maths but are weaker at language and rote learning subjects such as geography,business..etc. For example if a student is good at maths but poor at languages they are nearly starting of the LC at a disadvantage as it is mandatory to do English,Irish and they will most likely need another language subject as well.

Personally the bonus points are of no concern to me as i am doing a maths based course in college and i am fairly sure everyone doing the course will get the bonus points and so make them obsolete.

On a separate note i completely disagree with those who think HL Irish should get bonus points as some people already get bonus points in their exams for doing them through Irish which in my opinion is far more unfair not to mention pointless than the bonus 25 points for HL maths. Maths has uses in a wide range of sectors and teaches a skill set which is highly desired by most employers while Irish has practically no use in any sector and in my opinion should be made optional from at least after the JC and for those who say how people died fighting for it, i don't care just because some people fought for something does not make it important e.g. the crusades/religion.

I disagree that some people who are bad at languages should have the position of getting more points cos they can do equations.More people are worse at maths than those same people are at languages.So if someone is not scientific/mathmatical then they are starting off at a disadvantage right? Besides the point is people who don't have to study too hard to get a d3 are now getting 70 points.Whereas I came back from college,took up 2 new subject and still got more points than my old leaving cert but now I may be screwed because of maths.That is injustice but I gotta suck it up know.

I feel hard done by but in reality I know it's tough luck and though I'm sucking it up I still don't like it.

Canard

mathstalk wrote: »

I agree with you on students being warned about the extra points earlier. Some people were asking me at the end of 5th year (after hearing about the +25 points) if it was possible to switch over to higher level. But, at that stage it's much too late really.

This struck me as a bit unusual...I assume you just did the LC this year because it was the first year with maths points, but we were told about it pretty much straight away I remember.

mathstalk

Patchy~ wrote: »

This struck me as a bit unusual...I assume you just did the LC this year because it was the first year with maths points, but we were told about it pretty much straight away I remember.

I guess the word just hadn't gone fully around yet. There was even some confusion over the points well into 6th year; some people thinking you can only get the points with an A etc. It should have been more strongly advertised I suppose.

Carlos Orange

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

Off topic but has to be said. You do know hundreds of people died fighting for our rights to be able to speak Irish today? And you're saying it's pointless.

I know it is shocking but people die for pointless stuff all the time.

JamesDundalk

I fully agree that they needed to incentivise more people into taking up honours maths, but the way they have gone about it is completely wrong. 25 points extra is astronomical, and completely undermines all other students who may not be good at maths, yet are good at other subjects. The fact that there was a 98% pass rate with a 22% uptake shows completely that the government is saving their tail, they want to ensure nearly all pass, to avoid further criticism of the new course.

mathstalk

For those of you arguing that extra points should also be given for Irish, remember that the whole country does Maths, only 81.7% do Irish. Whatever about the Maths being unfair, at least everybody has the opportunity to do higher. Technically, everybody has that opportunity in Irish too, but that 12.3% is greatly made up of people who grew up abroad and didn't have the chance to build up the skills necessary to do higher level Irish (A subject more closely resembling the standards of English than any other extra language). Dyslexics and others exempted from Irish due to learning difficulties would also be excluded from this scheme.

Canard

JamesDundalk wrote: »

The fact that there was a 98% pass rate with a 22% uptake shows completely that the government is saving their tail, they want to ensure nearly all pass, to avoid further criticism of the new course.

This, so much so. It's ridiculous and imo makes them look worse - if any subject, especially one as difficult as HL maths, had such an enormous pass rate they'd be looking for ways to mark people down more. I'm pretty sure my entire class passed while 3 of them or more failed our easy mock badly and would definitely not have passed any other year
I'm not saying they should fail, it'd be awful for them to not get to college, but for 97% of those who did it to get extra points is way too much.

Cruel Sun

Patchy~ wrote: »

I'm not saying they should fail, it'd be awful for them to not get to college, but for 97% of those who did it to get extra points is way too much.

This is why "D" students shouldn't have gotten the 25 points bonus, they still could have passed their LC without having an unfair advantage.

This would have been fairer imo.

20 Points- A1
15 Points- A2
10 Points- B
5 Points- C

Or something like that.

ChemHickey

Patchy~ wrote: »

This, so much so. It's ridiculous and imo makes them look worse - if any subject, especially one as difficult as HL maths, had such an enormous pass rate they'd be looking for ways to mark people down more. I'm pretty sure my entire class passed while 3 of them or more failed our easy mock badly and would definitely not have passed any other year
I'm not saying they should fail, it'd be awful for them to not get to college, but for 97% of those who did it to get extra points is way too much.

My teacher was complaining that everyone in our class passed, and that nobody failed, as she said that about 75% of our class were unable for honours maths, and now, with their D3/D2, they have an extra 25 points and more likely a college place, which is more deserving of another student.

Carlos Orange

mathstalk wrote: »

For those of you arguing that extra points should also be given for Irish, remember that the whole country does Maths, only 81.7% do Irish. Whatever about the Maths being unfair, at least everybody has the opportunity to do higher. Technically, everybody has that opportunity in Irish too, but that 12.3% is greatly made up of people who grew up abroad and didn't have the chance to build up the skills necessary to do higher level Irish (A subject more closely resembling the standards of English than any other extra language). Dyslexics and others exempted from Irish due to learning difficulties would also be excluded from this scheme.

Do people still get a points bonus for doing subjects in Irish?
I think it was 10% across the board. That sounds like it has a lot more impact than a single subject 25 point bonus.

spurious

Back in the Dark Ages (70s and 80s), we had extra points for Higher Maths.

In those days, the points went - 5 for an A, 4 for a B, 3 for a C and 2 for a D.
From what I recall there were no points for OL subjects and the HL Maths points were 7 for an A, 6 for a B, 5 for a C and 4 for a D.

I would agree with Cruel Sun that a sliding scale would have been fairer. A blunt 25 points to everyone is quite clumsy.

mathstalk

HeaneyBabe wrote: »

That is true. Like I said only people who want to go on and use maths in their lives to do things like work with PCs etc should get bonus points if there's being any given.

But, if points were only given to these people then how would anybody benefit?

Think about it, Maths, Engineering, Computer Science: these courses all require higher Maths anyway, so giving extra points to everybody hoping to enter these fields would be totally redundant.

For example: 10 people apply for a 5 person course. The course is maths-based so it requires higher Maths. Everybody applying, therefore, has their points increased by 25. The computer notices that subtracting 25 points from each candidate will produce the same output as with the extra points. No change happens.

Just thought I'd point that out

Canard

Cruel Sun wrote: »

This is why "D" students shouldn't have gotten the 25 points bonus, they still could have passed their LC without having an unfair advantage.

This would have been fairer imo.

20 Points- A1
15 Points- A2
10 Points- B
5 Points- C

Or something like that.

Yeah, I have to say that's a lot fairer - it even gives those competing for maths courses a better stance, e.g. the A1 studied gets in over the B student. Though I wouldn't have gone far with my C, lawl. :P

ChemHickey wrote: »

My teacher was complaining that everyone in our class passed, and that nobody failed, as she said that about 75% of our class were unable for honours maths, and now, with their D3/D2, they have an extra 25 points and more likely a college place, which is more deserving of another student.

As harsh as it sounds I'd have to agree...I was afraid of failing the exam but then I found out I didn't need to pass. If I did need to pass, I probably would have dropped. A lot of those people just should not have passed, and they got extra points. It's obvious that those students probably wouldn't even have been great at OL, so it's awful that they get more points. A D grade in maths will not get you into a maths course so I don't even see the benefit of awarding points for it from the government's point of view.

Lawliet

christopherson wrote: »

We are living in an era where Science and Technology is paramount. Therefore those who qualify for these courses in college should be of higher intelligence. Higher Level maths students are of higher intelligence. Therefore the intentions of the government is very clear, "we are in a recession, we need to excel in other areas, get the best people to college to make this happen"

If the government want people to do well in science and technology why are they cutting calculus -something which is fundamental in STEM courses- from the syllabus?
This is making it look like students are doing better at maths, and that's all it's achieving -looks. Meanwhile in reality the new syllabus is leaving students in a much worse position for third level courses that do require a high standard of maths.
The only ones who are going to benefit from this are the grinds school who are going to get a nice business opportunity to run pre-university calculus and algebra courses to get students up to the standard needed.

jaydoxx

It's probably been mentioned before but I think that bonus points should only apply to subjects where it's an advantage (if not neccesary) in your course. People doing literature should get bonus points on their english results. People applying for history or polotics should get a bonus for history. I think that's really what the cao system needs to ensure the higher education institutes get students who are capable in their chosen subjects but who may not be academically great when it comes to foreign language for example. We all know how unfair it is for someone applying to medicine to fail to receive an offer despite the fact that they may have received 100% in all relevant subjects but couldn't do well in linguistics of english and irish and a third language.

buckfast69

Its stupid it should be the same for everyone, if you get an A1 in maths chances are you are smart enough to get the course you want without being handed an additional 25 points.

There should be a heavier review system on how maths(and all subjects) are taught. The maths teacher I had for the LC was good when she showed up but more often then not we were standing outside the class room waiting for her to show. I remember one time getting close to the leaving cert we said to the vice principal that she was never showing up. What happened the next day she was there on time spent the 45 mins freaking at us for being disloyal to her. People like that just shouldn't be allowed teach.

Its been years since my leaving cert but i remember there were points subjects like, economic history, agricultural studies and a few other which were more or less gaurenteed A1s. Do they still have them?

randylonghorn

mathstalk wrote: »

Whatever about the Maths being unfair, at least everybody has the opportunity to do higher.

In a theoretical sense, I suppose, but practically, no. Some schools don't have enough students to offer HL Maths even with the increase in students doing it now, so any students in those schools who want to do it / are able for it are at a disadvantage unless they move schools (often not an option).

Mind you, I suppose that is one thing to be said for it which I had forgotten: there are probably schools where the bonus has encouraged a few extra people to do it therefore making it viable to offer HL where the cutbacks would otherwise have meant it would have to be dropped.

spurious wrote: »

Back in the Dark Ages (70s and 80s), we had extra points for Higher Maths.

In those days, the points went - 5 for an A, 4 for a B, 3 for a C and 2 for a D.
From what I recall there were no points for OL subjects ...

Wasn't it 2 for an A at OL and 1 for a B, or is my Medieval history letting me down? :pac:

Eathrin

I'm actually surprised the numbers doing higher level maths didn't drastically increase with the incentive of gaining an extra 25 points.

spurious

randylonghorn wrote: »

Wasn't it 2 for an A at OL and 1 for a B, or is my Medieval history letting me down? :pac:

It could well have been. I know 24 points was enough for Medicine in those days.

Our school organised a HL Maths class for the four candidates we had. It caused lots of disruption, but it was worth it in the end as they all got it.

randylonghorn

Eathrin wrote: »

I'm actually surprised the numbers doing higher level maths didn't drastically increase with the incentive of gaining an extra 25 points.

Fear of failure is the biggest disincentive to taking HL Maths, sure we had a few panicky people around here over the last couple of months.

Which is why something like this would be a very effective option:

randylonghorn wrote: »

Someone suggested a different solution in this forum a few months back. Hold an "Ordinary Level" exam for those doing HL in February, say. Once they pass, that grade is "parked" in the system. If they pass HL in June, that grade / level replaces the Feb one; if they don't, the Feb grade activates and they have at least a pass or better at OL.

End of fear. No bonus points necessary.

But you see ... that would cost money to implement!

HeaneyBabe

I wish I never started this thread... LOL

mathstalk

randylonghorn wrote: »

Someone suggested a different solution in this forum a few months back. Hold an "Ordinary Level" exam for those doing HL in February, say. Once they pass, that grade is "parked" in the system. If they pass HL in June, that grade / level replaces the Feb one; if they don't, the Feb grade activates and they have at least a pass or better at OL.

End of fear. No bonus points necessary.

But you see ... that would cost money to implement!

That's actually an excellent idea! I don't know why it has to be "fire and brimstone" fear driving people's decision. It's so backward and pointless. It's like the SEC get some sick pleasure out of giving us an ultimatum.

ChemHickey

mathstalk wrote: »

randylonghorn wrote: »

Someone suggested a different solution in this forum a few months back. Hold an "Ordinary Level" exam for those doing HL in February, say. Once they pass, that grade is "parked" in the system. If they pass HL in June, that grade / level replaces the Feb one; if they don't, the Feb grade activates and they have at least a pass or better at OL.

End of fear. No bonus points necessary.

But you see ... that would cost money to implement!

That's actually an excellent idea! I don't know why it has to be "fire and brimstone" fear driving people's decision. It's so backward and pointless. It's like the SEC get some sick pleasure out of giving us an ultimatum.

And not just that, it is awful students have to wait a whole year if they repeat. Having a LC at a different point of the year and one in June would be more reasonable in my opinion. It would be costly but still would allow a fairer chance for those students who wish to get a second go.

Togepi

ChemHickey wrote: »

And not just that, it is awful students have to wait a whole year if they repeat. Having a LC at a different point of the year and one in June would be more reasonable in my opinion. It would be costly but still would allow a fairer chance for those students who wish to get a second go.

Happen to be sick/grieving in June and you could easily have to repeat/settle for a course/career you don't want. What a fair system. :rolleyes: It's ridiculous that they don't have repeat exams in August for exceptional circumstances such as being hospitalised during the exams or the death of a loved one around exam time. No hope of them changing the system though with the state the country's in. :mad:

Namlub

I generally just agree with everything Togepi has to say on this matter...

Muir

I don't see it as a good idea. People doing Maths related courses usually need HL Maths anyway, so everyone will get the extra 25 points which just makes it a bit pointless. Other than that it just pushes up points for courses not related to Maths making it harder for people who really struggle to get high points & aren't able for HL Maths.

Also, taking Calculus off the course is so stupid. It's probably one of the most important things learned in Maths, used all the time in my Engineering course anyway. It actually brings down the standard of Maths. I get the impression lecturers aren't too impressed at the fact it's not being taught.

Canard

I actually found calculus to be the most enjoyable/easy part of the course too...it really makes no sense to remove it.

FaoiSin

Patchy~ wrote: »

I actually found calculus to be the most enjoyable/easy part of the course too...it really makes no sense to remove it.

Have to agree. I liked all of Paper 1. I just couldn't get into Project Maths

CatEyed92

I don't think it's a good idea!

First of all, no one is disputing HL maths students don't deserve recognition. Fair play to um!

BUT
Points are hard enough to obtain, without others getting extra 25 points for ANY subject just for doing it.
It's not fair at all!

Perhaps a revamp of the Maths HL and OL syllabus would of been a better option with a review of the teachers while they were at it.:rolleyes:

25 extra points for HL maths, (while the intentions are good) should not of been brought in. It's probably going to push points (which are high enough) up!

By the looks of things, the governments are trying to go back to the old ways of the college system, slowly but surely!

Push points up ! Next, the fee's will be back!

Don't know if anyone else feels the same, but I would pay loads of silly taxes etc if it meant leaving the free fee's system alone...another argument for another day

IMO!