Thickness of Stone wall

seannash

Hi there
I own a listed building and we are currently renovating it.
I have been discussing insulation wit my architect and when it comes to wall insulation he is saying that because my stone walls are over a foot thick they wont need insulating.

Now I understand insulation will improve things but because the conservation officer wants only lime render on the walls with no insulation will the thickness of the walls be enough so that I'm not leaking heat

Thanks

BryanF

seannash wrote: »

Hi there
I own a listed building and we are currently renovating it.
I have been discussing insulation wit my architect and when it comes to wall insulation he is saying that because my stone walls are over a foot thick they wont need insulating.

there are stuidies that suggest older stone/rubble/lime/mud walls to have better insulating properties than the calcs suggest. the stone walls/300+ thick you've mentioned will need some form of insulation, unless your prepared to compensated with lots of heating, and for your arch to suggest that you wont need insulation is debatable, imo it is worth exploring how this could be achieved.

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/technicalconservation/conservation-research.htm
http://www.roscommoncoco.ie/en/Services/Heritage/Architectural_Conservation_Guidelines_Do_E_/Appendices.pdf
http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/technicalconservation/conservationpublications.htm
http://www.conservationphysics.org/
http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/articles.htm

Now I understand insulation will improve things but because the conservation officer wants only lime render on the walls with no insulation will the thickness of the walls be enough so that I'm not leaking heat

have you discussed hemp lime with the conservation officer?
http://www.constructireland.ie/Articles/Sustainable-Building-Technology/Mainstreaming-Bio-Composite-Construction/Page-2.html
http://gse.cat.org.uk/hemp-building-research
http://www.buildinglimesforum.org.uk/sources-of-information
there are lots of examples in Ireland (mainly done by a handful of experts or where they have advised self-builders, so i wont name any names here)

your architect? unfortunately some of the 'old school' guys see conservation as an excuse not to use natural suitable innovated means to offer occupant comfort and retain architectural heritage, I believe both can be achieved

seannash

To be fair the architect has been quite good in relation to using old methods and materials.
We have take the walls right back to the brick and are just debating whether or not we need to insulate.
I'll definetly suggest the hemp idea but its good to know that its not gonna let heat pour out the wall

BryanF

seannash wrote: »

but its good to know that its not gonna let heat pour out the wall

hold on a sec,we may have our wires crossed, (i'm trying out being diplomatic on boards at the moment:D) but just to clarify IMO those walls will be bloody cold and make any large space hard to heat.

seannash

BryanF wrote: »

hold on a sec,we may have our wires crossed, (i'm trying out being diplomatic on boards at the moment:D) but just to clarify IMO those walls will be bloody cold and make any large space hard to heat.

Oh I know but what I mean was its good to know its not like leaving a door open and they have some insulation properties

BryanF

seannash wrote: »

Oh I know but what I mean was its good to know its not like leaving a door open and they have some insulation properties

your analogy raises some other key issues

breathability: how the wall releases/transfers moisture ( & why I underlined natural insulation above)

air-tightness: draft/ air-leakage - very prevalent in old buildings, worth while dealing with (but raises issues like how are you ventilating)

ventilation: required by us mere mortals (very different from the above limiting of drafts or 'breathable')

seannash

Well as its listed the walls require lime render so that should help them breathe.
I've definetly got a bit investigating to do
Thanks for the replies

sydthebeat

walk into any old stone ruin on a hot summers day and realise how much heat energy old stone walls absorb!!!

they absolutely do need insulating in the context of the costs to heat the bloody things. i would be in complete disagreement with your architect on this one... especially if this is going to be a family home.

follow bryanfs links would also be my advice

muffler

BryanF wrote: »

i'm trying out being diplomatic on boards at the moment

Highly commendable and long overdue

BryanF

muffler wrote: »

Highly commendable and long overdue

long overdue! you should have said something Muffler:p

seannash

sydthebeat wrote: »

walk into any old stone ruin on a hot summers day and realise how much heat energy old stone walls absorb!!!

they absolutely do need insulating in the context of the costs to heat the bloody things. i would be in complete disagreement with your architect on this one... especially if this is going to be a family home.

follow bryanfs links would also be my advice

Im not disputing that we may well need to further insulate and will investigate this with my architect but surely a wall absorbing heat is a good thin as it will radiate back into the room?

sydthebeat

absolutely, but currently youve nothing to stop it radiating out into space at night time

your only real option when it comes to insulation is internal breathable types like sheeps wool and lime render. Your internal walls and floors will act as your thermal store as im sure they are thermally massive currently.

external insulation is not an option im sure, as its a listed building.

BryanF

there's:

• sheepswool,
• hemp batts,
• clay,
• cork
• wood fibres,
• calcium silicate,
• hemp-lime
• and several other composite options for drylining old walls.

each with their pros and cons, relevant to the situation, time frame etc.

simple rule is stay away from anything petrochemical based: poly.. whatever

the benefits of your walls as thermal storage only works where there is an insulation layer stopping the transfer of heat to the outside; think of it like - heat will always go to the colder side, ie towards the outside, therefore insulation is required

seannash

see the thing is that were not entirely sure were allowed or indeed have the space to build out the wall to take insulation

there are casement windows that the wall cant be built out past.The old plaster has been removed but even so it doesnt leave alot of room