Why and where did you choose to live abroad?

seachto7

Something I have been wondering about for other people. I am living in Ireland at the moment, but for the last 10 years, since I came back from Italy have been thinking about moving abroad again. I think it's going to happen in the next few years. I just have to give into it at this stage, as it has always been there in my head.

However, it's all about choosing where to live. It's fine saying "I'd like to live in the UK", but where you choose to live in the UK could determine how things work out, and whether you enjoy your experience or not.

Lots of people move for work, or love, or lifestyle reasons. Here is how I think of it all. The idea of living abroad is the attraction for me over where to live, but where you live is very important...

Over the last 5 years especially, I have changed my mind on where I would live I don't know how many times, and as recently as today, I would not be able to decide. I have thought about and looked into Australia. Having been there, I narrowed it down to Melbourne or Fremantle. Big difference between both. In the end I went off the idea, and have no regrets. I was back there last year, and it's not for me, lifestyle and all.

I did live in Italy (Rome) and did live in France. I would not move back to Rome, though I could live in Italy quite easily. I find Italy is a place I could integrate easier into as I worked there, speak the language and generally get on well with Italians and have many Italian friends. But again, with Italy, there are lots of factors, the main one being finding a decent job. More than likely it would be the north of Italy, so I am determined to visit a few places in the next year or so such as Turin, Bologna and other smaller cities outside Milan.

France. I lived there for only 9 months, so have limited "real life" experience of it. My initial thoughts were the South West of France. However, in reality what is like there? Again, it involves recon trips. My last trip to France, I was shocked at how dead a fairly large town by Irish standards was in the evening, and as a lover of checking out original bands, this would have stopped me moving there straight away. So, again, here is where lifestyle factors come in, and I would imagine if I had moved to that town, I wouldn't be there now, I'd have moved on. I do speak French so am going to consider France. The South West being good in theory, in that you have the Atlantic and the mountains, and close proximity to Spain to embrace another culture.

But, equally, I have invested a lot of time into researching the UK and Canada. I think the harsh winters would out me off Canada long term, and the fact I am over 35, it could prove extremely difficult emigrating there. Toronto would appeal in that it is very multicultural and has a great music scene. The harsh winters though....!! The north of Italy gets harsh winters too though...

The UK. This would appeal too for musical reasons as well as culturally.

In theory I could pick France, Italy, UK or Canada. I am free and single, so what to do.... It will be a decision not taken likely. I still have to actually visit Canada though.

Other people might pipe in and say "what about Scandinavia?"

What made you move to where you are? Work? Location? Other reasons?

VirtualWorld

I'm in almost the exact same boat as you. I have the wanderlust but have really not been able to narrow it down to decide on the destination. One minute I'm dying to go then next I am anxious that I will be lonely etc. But I feel.... the move is inevitable also, it's just a question of to where and when.
I think my approach will be closer to a back packer type of approach mind you.

At the moment I'm looking at the Netherlands for reasons that include:

English is widely spoken,
It's close to home, (a couple of hundred rather than the 1.5k for Oz for example)
I don't need to get sponsorship to gain work.

I'm a brave lassie, I accept that no one I know is wanting to take off on such a trip so I will be on my own, but it is a daunting task none the less.

Have any of you headed off like this on your own? How did it work out for you?

keithclancy

Moved to the Netherlands in 2007, not sure why, just thought we'd give it a go.

And it wasn't far away.

Still here today, love where we live.

At this stage I see here as 'home' and Ireland as being 'on holiday'

VirtualWorld

Ah... there's that word. 'we'...

Glad to hear you enjoyed it and it worked out well for you Keith. I will post back on my progress here after my weekend over there to suss things out.

I think it's easier for the boys to do this than girls... esp on their own.

Tuesday_Girl

I moved to Amsterdam on my own in 1998 and I'm still here. It's home now, no plans to return

eurofoxy

another one for the netherlands, live in maastricht, moved here for work back in 2005, i will never live in ireland again, my home/life is here...

VirtualWorld

Great to hear. Occasionally my bravery wanes a bit and posts doubts in my mind. Flights and accommodation booked now for Oct. I'm looking forward to it.

n900guy

Yeah +1 for Netherlands. Was an unexpected move and done more on impulse, and now it's difficult to imagine living anywhere but Amsterdam.

fasttalkerchat

Is the money still that good in Holland?

Lingua Franca

Yet another one for the Netherlands. I moved with my kids in tow a year ago to be with my Dutch partner. Everything is working out well and it's home now. I would not go back.

VirtualWorld: it's not too far and it's not a terrible culture shock. You'll be grand!

Fasttalkerchat: the Netherlands hasn't been as deeply hit by the economic crisis as most other EU countries and there's still work available.

VirtualWorld

Thank you for the answers. As small as the comments might seem to be they really are helping. Even though it is about 5 weeks or so before I head over just to check things out there, I'm already finding myself doing things like going through my wardrobe and doing a clear out etc in prep for a big move. The positive feedback has been great. Thank you.

Would you recommend putting things in motion such as opening a bank account over there on that weekend before I ever actually pack to leave? I presume it would be one of the first orders of business for the move.

What would you say are the top 3 or 4 things that need to be done and prepared for as a matter of priority actually in planning the move or in the first couple of days having moved?

Lingua Franca

#1 you need to get your birth cert apostiled. You can find out about that here: http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=268

You'll need the apostile on your birth cert to register with the local council.

#2 You must register at the local council, and they will give you a burgerservisnummer, which is something like a national insurance number. Having that makes signing up for anything much, much easier.

You will NOT need to register with immigration, despite what they may tell you. It's not an obligation for EU citizens but the Dutch really love themselves some petty bureaucracy (and issuing lectures) and not everyone is certain of what you need to do. My Scottish friend was recently told by a cop that she needs to register with immigration but we know other people who have been here for 10+ years living, working, getting ill, getting married, getting mortgages, and no one has ever required it and the immigration website merely says "you may register" or "you can register", not "you must".

You'll need the burgerservisnummer to open your bank account, so that can wait. They're pretty efficient and helpful in the banks here so it's not a terrible bother.

I'm not sure what else would need to be done, I moved here with 2 kids and half the contents of my home in tow to a house waiting for me so my situation would be very different to yours. Most of my concern was focused on getting my kids into school and settled in. But ask me anything!

VirtualWorld

Thank you for that. I didn't know anything about this before. I've taken a look at that site. I guess I have a little homework to do.

keithclancy

Lingua Franca wrote: »

#1 you need to get your birth cert apostiled. You can find out about that here: http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=268

You'll need the apostile on your birth cert to register with the local council.

#2 You must register at the local council, and they will give you a burgerservisnummer, which is something like a national insurance number. Having that makes signing up for anything much, much easier.

You will NOT need to register with immigration, despite what they may tell you. It's not an obligation for EU citizens but the Dutch really love themselves some petty bureaucracy (and issuing lectures) and not everyone is certain of what you need to do. My Scottish friend was recently told by a cop that she needs to register with immigration but we know other people who have been here for 10+ years living, working, getting ill, getting married, getting mortgages, and no one has ever required it and the immigration website merely says "you may register" or "you can register", not "you must".

You'll need the burgerservisnummer to open your bank account, so that can wait. They're pretty efficient and helpful in the banks here so it's not a terrible bother.

I'm not sure what else would need to be done, I moved here with 2 kids and half the contents of my home in tow to a house waiting for me so my situation would be very different to yours. Most of my concern was focused on getting my kids into school and settled in. But ask me anything!

I wouldn't do it this way, you'll be under pressure to get a BSN by your employer and hence under pressure to get an Apartment.

http://www.iamsterdam.com/en-GB/living/official-matters/Registration/registration

Please note: If your stay is less than four months, you will need to obtain your BSN number directly from the tax office.

Basically you can get your BSN Number from the Belastingdienst and it gives you 3 - 4 months to sort out finding a place to live (We just stayed in a Vacation apartment while we checked out different areas)

If they say "Is your plan to stay longer than 4 months" just say you don't know yet

Also, you only need a Birth Certificate if your Married or non EU/EEA, you need to present it apostilled along with the Marriage Certificate, if your Single all you need is your Passport (Thats all I needed both times I've registered)

Its much better to get a feel for the place for a few months, just in case it doesn't work out, also you'll get a better feel for the different areas and the transport links.

Once you get your BSN then you can get a bank A/C.
We went with ABNAmro, good English speaking services, the online banking is excellent.

Once you find a permanent place (make sure you can register at it) then go register at the City Hall and switch your banking address.

Also, and this is important !! discuss with your employer about the 30% Ruling:
http://www.expatax.nl/30ruling.php

Makes a big difference to your wages (basically you get 30% of your income tax free)

After that make sure you get your Health Insurance, otherwise you'll just end up getting a nasty back dated bill at some point down the road.

Look on funda.nl for apartments, don't bother with any of the English speaking agencies (you will get raped)

If you see yourself staying over a year then just rent a place unfurnished and furnish it with mixture of stuff from the Kringloop (Second hand shops) and IKEA. (your only renting crappy furniture in a furnished place anyway)

Also get a Bicycle, if your feeling .. eh .. adventurous and want a cheap bike .. just look for a guy hanging around the train station at night time .. he'll sort you out with one for about 15 euros :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Otherwise .. if you want a non stolen bike checkout marktplaats.nl

Google Translate should help you out with all of the above !

Lingua Franca

keithclancy wrote: »

I wouldn't do it this way, you'll be under pressure to get a BSN by your employer and hence under pressure to get an Apartment.

http://www.iamsterdam.com/en-GB/living/official-matters/Registration/registration

What was wrong, there? Virtual Reality didn't say anything about coming over straight into a job, I got the impression that they were coming over to look for work. You still need to get your documents apostiled before coming over and I said that the first thing you should do is register and get a BSN.

keithclancy wrote: »

Also, you only need a Birth Certificate if your Married or non EU/EEA, you need to present it apostilled along with the Marriage Certificate, if your Single all you need is your Passport (Thats all I needed both times I've registered)

You DO need a birth cert, it even says so in your link.

Registration documents needed
valid identification (passport or identity card)
birth certificate
a rental/ tenancy agreement (huurovereenkomst) or home purchase agreement
if lodging with someone, a copy of the identity document of the main occupant and a declaration stating his or her permission for you to live there.

and here's more: http://www.denhaag.nl/en/residents/to/Registration-procedures-EUEEA-or-Swiss-citizens.htm

What will I need?
Valid proof of identity. Please note: A driving licence will not be accepted as valid identification.
Proof of Occupancy.
A recently-issued original birth certificate. A recent original marriage certificate (if applicable). These documents will be reviewed while you wait.

I'm unmarried and EU and had to have my certificates apostiled. My children (also unmarried EU citizens :pac:) also had to present apostiled documents along with their passports. In fact, my son's apostiled birth cert was refused because it was a short form one, I had to order a long form one and then send it off to get it apostiled. I have two single friends living here and they also had to present apostiled birth certs. Perhaps you predated this requirement, but the friend who moved here 15 years ago had to have hers, and have it apostiled. Given the love of bureaucracy here I wouldn't take the chance.

The rest of your post is great advice. I also went with ABN Amro and my partner put me and the kids on his health insurance.

keithclancy

Lingua Franca wrote: »

What was wrong, there? Virtual Reality didn't say anything about coming over straight into a job, I got the impression that they were coming over to look for work. You still need to get your documents apostiled before coming over and I said that the first thing you should do is register and get a BSN.

You can't register with the Gemeente if your living at a short term apartment, house share, hotel etc.

Your 'encouraged' to register with City Hall immediately, you need a permanent address to do this, I've seen many expats suckered into expensive apartments because they had to find someplace immediately.

To get a Burgerservicenummer all you need is to make an appointment with the local Belastingdienst office, you give your temporary address and your work contract, took me about 10 minutes to get my BSN.

I wouldn't particularly recommend coming over 'looking for work' its much better to find work and then move over rather than expend resources on living costs while looking for it. Its so close anyway its not an issue.

You DO need a birth cert, it even says so in your link.

Nope, you don't, all you need is a passport, I didn't even have an apostilled Birth Certificate until last year and I've been here almost 6 years, been registered with the Gemeente in Den Haag for 3 years and Eindhoven for 2 1/2 years

Basically they cannot ask any more of you that they would of a Dutch National, the information on the English speaking websites can be misleading and I for one always take it with a grain of salt

The lady showed me this on the Rijksoverheid website in the Gemeente.

Usually they write on the English website that you should bring everything.

De informatie van de Rijksoverheid is meer correct www.rijksoverheid.nl

and here's more: http://www.denhaag.nl/en/residents/to/Registration-procedures-EUEEA-or-Swiss-citizens.htm

I'm unmarried and EU and had to have my certificates apostiled. My children (also unmarried EU citizens :pac:) also had to present apostiled documents along with their passports. In fact, my son's apostiled birth cert was refused because it was a short form one, I had to order a long form one and then send it off to get it apostiled. I have two single friends living here and they also had to present apostiled birth certs. Perhaps you predated this requirement, but the friend who moved here 15 years ago had to have hers, and have it apostiled. Given the love of bureaucracy here I wouldn't take the chance.

The rest of your post is great advice. I also went with ABN Amro and my partner put me and the kids on his health insurance.

I never bothered until we got married, getting stuff apostilled is a rip off :pac:

It sounds like you had some issues (as I had in some cases) theres a free EU Service you can use to address such problems (e.g. If your being treated differently to a Dutch National)

http://ec.europa.eu/solvit/site/index_en.htm

Bureaucracy, obviously you never lived in Germany ... they are much worse.

Meh .. up to you OP, I've never needed my Birth Cert, neither did the missus who's also Irish, you could always get it later if its required.

Get it, if it makes you feel better, from the Department of Foreign affairs in Dublin, you can go in an queue or do it by post, but its basically 20 euros for a stamp on a page

Lingua Franca

I can't find anything on the rijksoverheid site which states which documents you need and don't need to register. Could you point me to it, please?

keithclancy

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I can't find anything on the rijksoverheid site which states which documents you need and don't need to register. Could you point me to it, please?

Lady in Eindhoven City hall printed it out for me, link is truncated on the page, sorry.

As I said ... never needed it until we got married.

Lingua Franca

Fair enough, but everyone else I know here has needed their apostiled birth cert to register, we all needed apostiled birth certs to register, all of the information available on the internet says you need an apostiled birth cert to register and there's nothing that says you don't. I wouldn't recommend that anyone take the chance that they'll get away without one to save themselves a few bob given that getting it done from here and having it fed exed over costs twice as much, as I learned to my cost.

keithclancy

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Fair enough, but everyone else I know here has needed their apostiled birth cert to register, we all needed apostiled birth certs to register, all of the information available on the internet says you need an apostiled birth cert to register and there's nothing that says you don't. I wouldn't recommend that anyone take the chance that they'll get away without one to save themselves a few bob given that getting it done from here and having it fed exed over costs twice as much, as I learned to my cost.

Weird, nobody I knew other than a guy from South Africa and an American needed it.

The way it was explained to me was if you need to pay for something check if its "verplicht" first and get it in writing, then go and pay for it

E.G.
http://www.maastricht.nl/web/Engels/Home/E_n_g_e_l_s-tonenop/First-registration-in-the-Netherlands.htm

Depending on your situation, one or more of the following documents may additionally be required (although the initial registration is possible with only the documents listed above):
Your birth certificate;
Your marriage certificate, divorce papers, or your partner’s death certificate.

You only need an Apostille stamp for marriage, show me anywhere it says you need an Apostilled Birth Certificate to register with the Gemeente.

As I said, never needed one, only ever needed one when I got married.

If in doubt call the Gemeente first, but I wouldn't spend a cash on certs etc until they said it was required.

E.G. In Germany I had to register with the Landhauptstadt, they require a German translation of my Birth Certificate for when I register my marriage, I got this in writing first before I went and spent the money on a translation.

P.S.
Why fedex it, could you not send someone in on your behalf to get it for you? or just use the postal service.

**Edit**

Hmm .. perhaps I didn't have this issue since I had a BSN Nummer before I went to Register at City hall

But indeed I've heard of stories of various different changing requirements, mainly down to poor English/Crappy civil servant.

Lingua Franca

show me anywhere it says you need an Apostilled Birth Certificate to register with the Gemeente

I already provided links, including your own, but if you want more:

http://www.denhaag.nl/en/residents/to/Registration-procedures-EUEEA-or-Swiss-citizens.htm (again)
http://www.irishembassy.nl/home/index.aspx?id=40464
http://www.dutchembassyuk.org/consular/index.php?i=68
http://www.rotterdam.nl/registrationinmunicipalpopulationregister
http://ukinnl.fco.gov.uk/en/help-for-british-nationals/living-in-nl/faq-permits-registration (mind you, this one also says you have to register with the IND where as this link says you don't)
http://www.leidenuniv.nl/en/predeparture/reg_town_hall.html
http://www.eur.nl/english/essc/welcome/upon_arrival/cityhall/
http://www.bluelynx.com/working-in-the-netherlands1
http://www.expatica.com/nl/essentials_moving_to/essentials/Dutch-immigration-and-residency-regulations_12220.html

...etc.

keithclancy wrote: »

**Edit**

Hmm .. perhaps I didn't have this issue since I had a BSN Nummer before I went to Register at City hall

I think we've discovered the source of the confusion here. You were already on the system. We're newly moved here and specifically went to get our BSNs so we could get bank accounts, health insurance, school enrollments etc. As I said, it's a lot more expensive and time consuming once you've already left home so it's not something to take a chance on for the sake of saving 20 euro.

keithclancy

Lingua Franca wrote: »

I think we've discovered the source of the confusion here. You were already on the system. We're newly moved here and specifically went to get our BSNs so we could get bank accounts, health insurance, school enrollments etc. As I said, it's a lot more expensive and time consuming once you've already left home so it's not something to take a chance on for the sake of saving 20 euro.

I was already on the system because I went into the Belastingdienst 3 months beforehand with my Passport and Work Contract, we were also newly moved there.

Again .. none of those links above say you need an Apostilled Birth Certificate to register, they only mention it next to Marriage.

As I said, call the Gemeente first.

I think I'm getting your back up here, but the point is that I've never needed it. I'm pretty sure that the agencies employing Irish people to come to the Netherlands would be making a big deal out of it if that was the case.

Lingua Franca

The need for a birth cert is on every single one of those links, the only difference being some of them say you "may" need to have them apostilled (and to check that out with the Ministry for Foreign Affairs) when you read on a bit. Have another look.

Here's another one: http://www.iamsterdam.com/en-GB/living/official-matters/Registration/registration which leads via a click-through to this: http://www.iamsterdam.com/en-GB/living/official-matters/Documents-certificates/authentication-of-foreign-documents

Fair play to you for not needing it, but we did and I've provided plenty of proof that it is required.

VirtualWorld

Thanks guys, both of you, for the responses. You're right in saying I'm heading over in about 4 weeks to check things out with a view to moving. I will make a few employment inquiries while there and will be attending the Expat fare in Amsterdam in to hopefully have the questions I already have answered and maybe even hear of the other things I hadn't thought of too. I'm not too sure what to do now with the birth cert. I can see both of your points of view on it. I will stew on it for a bit and decide later when I've done a bit more checking. Sincere thanks though to you both.

Lingua Franca

I'll be at the expat fair too.