RPSI Steam Failure sees NIR to the rescue!

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

Didn't 071s do Enterprise runs back in the day though? Or was that pre-TPWS/operating under waiver?

No TPWS back then, MD. It's only come in for NIR within the last few years.

end of the road

of course if CIE didn't rip up nearly every closed line their might be some interesting places to go but hey one can only wish.

end of the road

Hungerford wrote: »

I don't have much sympathy for them to be honest. If they weren't so diesel-phobic, they would have maintained 141 and 142 in serviceable condition for situations like these. It would mean that they could continue to run charters with their own locomotives, abet with vintage diesel power rather than a steam engine.

ah now remember they have to pander to the (core market) usually consisting of pearents with their little screaming brats (the reason why i would love a quiet carrage on the rosslare train, one can only wish) but anyway. maybe one day they will have all their diesels in full working order on mainline service and the same for the ITG to, what they have is all we have so don't let them rot for god sake.

Niles

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

I couldn't agree anymore! Why exactly did they preserve 141 & 142? These are mainline engines. It's a pity really...There is little interest in diesel engines where the RPSI is concerned. They really need to start thinking about other options rather than using a steam engine. NIR won't always be in a position to lend them a GM and considering they only have one at present, it limits them even more. This sole locomotive could be needed for a ballast train or to haul a failed Dublin set in. At present , York Road does not have a spare 201 so this leaves 112 being the only spare engine at the depot..

The RPSI claim that there isn't a great market for diesel tours. As said on IRN, they're last mystery tour to Galway only had 90 people on it! Why do mystery tours?? Pointless in my opinion. They claim that to run a diesel tour the joe public fill the most of it!

Rubbish!

How about doing an actual diesel railtour like the old ITG days or MRSI days where your leaving at the crack of done, getting engine changes and doing great loco hauled mileage! I never once recall any ITG/MRSI/IRRS tour having just 90 people on it after advertising interesting stuff with interesting routes & traction. I think it's came to a point where the RPSI have to look at things and say right if were going to survive for years ahead, we need to do these tours and bring in the money from the cranks. And for once, listen to diesel enthusiasts about where to go and what traction to use. It's them that has the money at the end of the day.

As for making progress with diesels, They've had 141 & 142 for 3 years now! 141 hasn't moved in over 2 years...As for 142, well I said it the minute it entered whitehead yard. take a good look at that now, because you won't see it on the mainline again! It's all possible. But the dedicated to get a diesel out isn't. Sad really....Railway "Preservation"....May aswell be a museum if this is their attitude to running the bo-bos

The RPSI's workforce is very small... many Saturdays you can count on one hand the amount of people available to keep the bare essentials running. I can't fathom how people think it's ok to criticise volunteers who are already stretched as it is keeping the bread and butter stock running for not doing more. It would be like criticising the St. Vincent de Paul Society for not helping more people in need, or claiming that Trócaire should be doing more for people in Africa.

If more people rolled up their sleeves, and less coached from the peanut gallery, maybe things could get done. But criticising those who have their hands full as it is for not doing more makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

For what it's worth, as attractive the idea of two B&T 141s is, I doubt more of Joe Public would care whether it was a 141, 111, 071 or 201 hauling the train. This is coming from my experience in dealing with public on such outings.

flyingsnail

Steam pays the bills, there is no way around it, that’s what the public want on their trains. While you may fill a number of diesel trains with enthusiasts you wont fill nearly as many as steam trains with the public. You can easily fill a steam train to Rosslare and back 4 times a year, how many times can you fill the same train with an 071 on the front?

Maybe with the right traction and destination you will sell out but that is not that easy. In the short term you are limited to either a 071 or a 201, unfortunately that does not give you much choice. We don’t exactly have a vast network in Ireland, coupled with modernisation and increased services it can be difficult to find paths to some places. You also have crew availability to contend with, in the days of loco hauled trains there were drivers and guards all over the country who could work these trains. Now there are very few drivers and guards who are passed to work these trains. While some may lament its passing, they days of starting at dawn and going all day are gone.

While from the outside it may often seem as if nothing is happening please remember that the people who do make things happen are all volunteers. This is not our day job, we are not paid to do this. We do it on our own time and at times it can drag on you. Some times getting up for that 6th day of work can be hard but if you don’t do it who will. At Christmas we will work our day jobs Monday to Friday then work for the RPSI Friday evening, all day Saturday, all day Sunday and back to work on Monday for 3 weeks straight.

Don’t get me wrong I find it very rewarding at times but the low number of people who volunteer often mean that all the work falls on the same people. We would love to have all our rolling stock in perfect order, to have every engine, both steam and diesel, available to run trains but unless more people are prepared to pick up tools and do some work this will just not happen. As it stands we draw our regular volunteers from across the country, form Limerick, Cork, Westport, Longford, Arklow and Dublin. All of who put in long days to keep things running only to be criticised for what the couldn’t get done because there just wasn’t enough people.

So before you criticise what has or hasn’t yet been done, please answer me this simple question. What have YOU done to help things move along?

kildarecommuter

flyingsnail wrote: »

Steam pays the bills, there is no way around it, that’s what the public want on their trains. While you may fill a number of diesel trains with enthusiasts you wont fill nearly as many as steam trains with the public. You can easily fill a steam train to Rosslare and back 4 times a year, how many times can you fill the same train with an 071 on the front?

Maybe with the right traction and destination you will sell out but that is not that easy. In the short term you are limited to either a 071 or a 201, unfortunately that does not give you much choice. We don’t exactly have a vast network in Ireland, coupled with modernisation and increased services it can be difficult to find paths to some places. You also have crew availability to contend with, in the days of loco hauled trains there were drivers and guards all over the country who could work these trains. Now there are very few drivers and guards who are passed to work these trains. While some may lament its passing, they days of starting at dawn and going all day are gone.

While from the outside it may often seem as if nothing is happening please remember that the people who do make things happen are all volunteers. This is not our day job, we are not paid to do this. We do it on our own time and at times it can drag on you. Some times getting up for that 6th day of work can be hard but if you don’t do it who will. At Christmas we will work our day jobs Monday to Friday then work for the RPSI Friday evening, all day Saturday, all day Sunday and back to work on Monday for 3 weeks straight.

Don’t get me wrong I find it very rewarding at times but the low number of people who volunteer often mean that all the work falls on the same people. We would love to have all our rolling stock in perfect order, to have every engine, both steam and diesel, available to run trains but unless more people are prepared to pick up tools and do some work this will just not happen. As it stands we draw our regular volunteers from across the country, form Limerick, Cork, Westport, Longford, Arklow and Dublin. All of who put in long days to keep things running only to be criticised for what the couldn’t get done because there just wasn’t enough people.

So before you criticise what has or hasn’t yet been done, please answer me this simple question. What have YOU done to help things move along?

Have to agree with the above I spent many years in Mullingar shed most weekends it was always the same faces. Emigrated for no of years and now that I'm back just don't have the time with other commitments however I do sometimes bring small people on Santas etc and it's still the same faces with a few younger ones doing all the work.

Hungerford

flyingsnail wrote: »

Steam pays the bills, there is no way around it, that’s what the public want on their trains.

Steam may pay the bills but the current situation indicates that the RPSI has no back-up plan for the issues that can crop up when dealing with such old machinery. The continued reliance on NIR and IE to bail the society out is getting ridiculous and is arguably unsustainable given the limited number of locomotives in service with both companies.

If assistance from these bodies isn't available, for whatever reason, it is clear that the society might have to cancel a substantial amount of its engagements, which has obvious implications on its revenue.

My point is that the RPSI has a ready-made solution but is unwilling to pursue it because of its obsession with steam. They got two Baby GMs in fully functioning condition from Irish Rail and they basically withdrew them from service.

If the Baby GMs were functional, the RPSI wouldn't have to run to NIR or IE for rescue locomotives every time their steam engines fail. They would be able to maintain their engagements (and revenue) while the engines are repaired with the next best alternative, vintage diesel engines, which were actually in service alongside steam engines for the early part of their history.

If the RPSI's punters are as discerning as the society suggests, why have they accepted 111s (from the 1980s) or 201s (from the 1990s) as replacement stock on previous occasions? I don't recall any stampede for refunds.

Maybe with the right traction and destination you will sell out but that is not that easy. In the short term you are limited to either a 071 or a 201, unfortunately that does not give you much choice.

And that situation is entirely down to the RPSI's obsession with steam. It has obtained diesel locomotives in the past and has allowed them to rot. One of the two NIR 101-class engines given to the society was even turned into razor blades.

You also have crew availability to contend with, in the days of loco hauled trains there were drivers and guards all over the country who could work these trains. Now there are very few drivers and guards who are passed to work these trains.

A couple and utter straw man if ever I saw one unless IE and NIR have been maintaining a mandatory yet covert steam engine training course for all their crews since the 1960s?

We would love to have all our rolling stock in perfect order, to have every engine, both steam and diesel, available to run trains but unless more people are prepared to pick up tools and do some work this will just not happen.

Its also a question of willingness too though. I notice that Downpatrick, which is also staffed by volunteers, has managed to keep the diesels it has received going. Indeed, it recently completed extensive repairs on one of the front cabs of 146. The RPSI has no interest in diesel.

So before you criticise what has or hasn’t yet been done, please answer me this simple question. What have YOU done to help things move along?

Absolutely nothing. And I won't until the RPSI drops its Thomas The Tank Engine obsession and engage seriously with preserving all aspects of Ireland's railway heritage.

dowlingm

Hungerford wrote: »

My point is that the RPSI has a ready-made solution but is unwilling to pursue it because of its obsession with steam. They got two Baby GMs in fully functioning condition from Irish Rail and they basically withdrew them from service.

With only one go-anywhere TPWSed 111 perhaps NIR would welcome having a small GM in mainline order these days... just in case.

end of the road

Hungerford wrote: »

Steam may pay the bills but the current situation indicates that the RPSI has no back-up plan for the issues that can crop up when dealing with such old machinery. The continued reliance on NIR and IE to bail the society out is getting ridiculous and is arguably unsustainable given the limited number of locomotives in service with both companies.

exactly, NIR and IE probably won't have locos forever or at least not enough to come rescue failed steam locos, hopefully their will be preserved ones to do it though if such a time came.

Hungerford wrote: »

If assistance from these bodies isn't available, for whatever reason, it is clear that the society might have to cancel a substantial amount of its engagements, which has obvious implications on its revenue.

that won't be good, its why its important to get these locos working and to mainline standard, i know volunteers are an issue but getting 1 or 2 working incase of a steam failure has to be a priority.

Hungerford wrote: »

My point is that the RPSI has a ready-made solution but is unwilling to pursue it because of its obsession with steam. They got two Baby GMs in fully functioning condition from Irish Rail and they basically withdrew them from service.

probably to their peril eventually.

Hungerford wrote: »

If the Baby GMs were functional, the RPSI wouldn't have to run to NIR or IE for rescue locomotives every time their steam engines fail. They would be able to maintain their engagements (and revenue) while the engines are repaired with the next best alternative, vintage diesel engines, which were actually in service alongside steam engines for the early part of their history.

i'm sure their are punters who go on the trips who would know that, thats why i believe most don't care. yeah the steam is a boness but have an a-class in front (i wish, maybe one day) once they know the history of those locos and couple that with a nice day out i'm sure they will be happy.

Hungerford wrote: »

If the RPSI's punters are as discerning as the society suggests, why have they accepted 111s (from the 1980s) or 201s (from the 1990s) as replacement stock on previous occasions? I don't recall any stampede for refunds.

well unless the punters are completely thick, i suspect they most lightly realise that these machines are old and will break down from time to time, also they most lightly realise the fact they are in working order and running on the main line at all is fantastic.

Hungerford wrote: »

And that situation is entirely down to the RPSI's obsession with steam. It has obtained diesel locomotives in the past and has allowed them to rot.

very very sad, such examples of heritage being left to rott is not good for anyone, its less for people to enjoy.

Hungerford wrote: »

One of the two NIR 101-class engines given to the society was even turned into razor blades.

an absolute discrase, and very very sad, is their only 1 of this class preserved?

Cookie_Monster

end of the road wrote: »

an absolute discrase, and very very sad, is their only 1 of this class preserved?

it's sitting in a musuem and will likely never move again. about as 'preserved' as it'll get.

flyingsnail

Hungerford wrote: »

Steam may pay the bills but the current situation indicates that the RPSI has no back-up plan for the issues that can crop up when dealing with such old machinery. The continued reliance on NIR and IE to bail the society out is getting ridiculous and is arguably unsustainable given the limited number of locomotives in service with both companies.

If assistance from these bodies isn't available, for whatever reason, it is clear that the society might have to cancel a substantial amount of its engagements, which has obvious implications on its revenue.

My point is that the RPSI has a ready-made solution but is unwilling to pursue it because of its obsession with steam. They got two Baby GMs in fully functioning condition from Irish Rail and they basically withdrew them from service.

If the Baby GMs were functional, the RPSI wouldn't have to run to NIR or IE for rescue locomotives every time their steam engines fail. They would be able to maintain their engagements (and revenue) while the engines are repaired with the next best alternative, vintage diesel engines, which were actually in service alongside steam engines for the early part of their history.

If the RPSI's punters are as discerning as the society suggests, why have they accepted 111s (from the 1980s) or 201s (from the 1990s) as replacement stock on previous occasions? I don't recall any stampede for refunds.

Clearly you have never had to deal with disappointed passengers when we run a diesel instead of a steam. And yes there are always people who want a refund.

And that situation is entirely down to the RPSI's obsession with steam. It has obtained diesel locomotives in the past and has allowed them to rot. One of the two NIR 101-class engines given to the society was even turned into razor blades.



A couple and utter straw man if ever I saw one unless IE and NIR have been maintaining a mandatory yet covert steam engine training course for all their crews since the 1960s?

The RPSI pay IE and NIR to train steam drivers, the point there was that there are very few drivers left who can drive locomotive hauled trains and very few guards to work them. As a result the amount of hours in a day that you can be out is very much restricted.

Its also a question of willingness too though. I notice that Downpatrick, which is also staffed by volunteers, has managed to keep the diesels it has received going. Indeed, it recently completed extensive repairs on one of the front cabs of 146. The RPSI has no interest in diesel.

If we could do it now we would, but as it stand we just about have enough people to cover our bread and butter work so every thing else has to take a back seat and as a result progresses slowly


Its not exactly fair comparing Downpatrick with main line running, they are two completely different things. Something that might stop a loco working a mainline train might be perfectly acceptable on a preserved line.

Absolutely nothing. And I won't until the RPSI drops its Thomas The Tank Engine obsession and engage seriously with preserving all aspects of Ireland's railway heritage.

So you see something you don’t like and instead of trying to doing something about it you just choose to sit on the sidelines criticizing those who are trying to do something.

flyingsnail

dowlingm wrote: »

With only one go-anywhere TPWSed 111 perhaps NIR would welcome having a small GM in mainline order these days... just in case.

NIR would have no drivers passed to work a 141

Our man in Havana

The RPSI needs to get drivers passed to drive their diesel engines. Such a shame allowing them to rot.

Rud

So i if want to learn to drive a steam or diesel for the RPSI what have i to do?Why can't i be trained by the RPSI to drive their steam trains?Why is it that there is only a certain amount of drivers available to drive them?Oh and this isn't a dig at the RPSI,i am just asking

Losty Dublin

A post like this is vintage selective begrudger talk.

I trust that you were at last weeks RPSI AGM to raise this vital matter which worries you so much, you that are willing to help out to achieve your suggestions which are obviously things the RPSI never ever thought of, able to donate cash to see your plans to fruition, train in drivers, fit safety equipment, marshall trains, sell tickets, plan trips et al :rolleyes:

Hungerford wrote: »

Steam may pay the bills but the current situation indicates that the RPSI has no back-up plan for the issues that can crop up when dealing with such old machinery. The continued reliance on NIR and IE to bail the society out is getting ridiculous and is arguably unsustainable given the limited number of locomotives in service with both companies.

If assistance from these bodies isn't available, for whatever reason, it is clear that the society might have to cancel a substantial amount of its engagements, which has obvious implications on its revenue.

My point is that the RPSI has a ready-made solution but is unwilling to pursue it because of its obsession with steam. They got two Baby GMs in fully functioning condition from Irish Rail and they basically withdrew them from service.

If the Baby GMs were functional, the RPSI wouldn't have to run to NIR or IE for rescue locomotives every time their steam engines fail. They would be able to maintain their engagements (and revenue) while the engines are repaired with the next best alternative, vintage diesel engines, which were actually in service alongside steam engines for the early part of their history.

If the RPSI's punters are as discerning as the society suggests, why have they accepted 111s (from the 1980s) or 201s (from the 1990s) as replacement stock on previous occasions? I don't recall any stampede for refunds.



And that situation is entirely down to the RPSI's obsession with steam. It has obtained diesel locomotives in the past and has allowed them to rot. One of the two NIR 101-class engines given to the society was even turned into razor blades.



A couple and utter straw man if ever I saw one unless IE and NIR have been maintaining a mandatory yet covert steam engine training course for all their crews since the 1960s?



Its also a question of willingness too though. I notice that Downpatrick, which is also staffed by volunteers, has managed to keep the diesels it has received going. Indeed, it recently completed extensive repairs on one of the front cabs of 146. The RPSI has no interest in diesel.



Absolutely nothing. And I won't until the RPSI drops its Thomas The Tank Engine obsession and engage seriously with preserving all aspects of Ireland's railway heritage.

flyingsnail

Rud wrote: »

So i if want to learn to drive a steam or diesel for the RPSI what have i to do?Why can't i be trained by the RPSI to drive their steam trains?Why is it that there is only a certain amount of drivers available to drive them?Oh and this isn't a dig at the RPSI,i am just asking

All steam train drivers are currently employed by IE / NIR as drivers and the RPSI has paid those company to further train them as steam train drivers. They are then hired by the RPSI as required.

Chrisplayfair

flyingsnail wrote: »

NIR would have no drivers passed to work a 141

I can confirm there are still 5 drivers on NIR who sign for 141 class locomotives....Its all about being competent to drive rather than 6 months etc

Rud

flyingsnail wrote: »

All steam train drivers are currently employed by IE / NIR as drivers and the RPSI has paid those company to further train them as steam train drivers. They are then hired by the RPSI as required.

Why is this exactly?Why can't RPSI hire and train steam drivers themselves and leave IE or NIR out of it?

Chrisplayfair

Emmmm....I do believe because it's their railway funnily enough....Its not like England where Network Rail own the track and West coast and DRS (Private operators) operate. To operate on the NIR infrastructure, all train drivers must have a train driver's licence, which I doubt any RPSI *yard* driver has.

kildarecommuter

Rud wrote: »

flyingsnail wrote: »

All steam train drivers are currently employed by IE / NIR as drivers and the RPSI has paid those company to further train them as steam train drivers. They are then hired by the RPSI as required.

Why is this exactly?Why can't RPSI hire and train steam drivers themselves and leave IE or NIR out of it?

I would presume because neither rail company will permit anyone bar their own staff drive trains on their lines. You would also need road knowledge

goingnowhere

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

I can confirm there are still 5 drivers on NIR who sign for 141 class locomotives....Its all about being competent to drive rather than 6 months etc

Its quickly forgotten that the Gatwick set had a 141 on the front many a time.

I'm guessing you could turn up a few C class drivers as well...

Chrisplayfair

Interesting to see how the RPSI have wiped their "booked" locomotive for future trips up until December trains.....

flyingsnail

Rud wrote: »

Why is this exactly?Why can't RPSI hire and train steam drivers themselves and leave IE or NIR out of it?

IE / NIR are the only companies here that maintain a pool of qualified drivers. As part of their day job these drivers maintain their licences, route and rules knowledge ect.

flyingsnail

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

I can confirm there are still 5 drivers on NIR who sign for 141 class locomotives....Its all about being competent to drive rather than 6 months etc

I find it a bit strange that they would be allowed to drive them again without any refresher training but I am not that familiar with the inner working / rules on NIR so I will take your word on that.

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

Emmmm....I do believe because it's their railway funnily enough....Its not like England where Network Rail own the track and West coast and DRS (Private operators) operate. To operate on the NIR infrastructure, all train drivers must have a train driver's licence, which I doubt any RPSI *yard* driver has.

Indeed, the RPSI train there own yard drivers to move loco and stock in the yard just like most preserved railways but mainline running is a different thing altogether.

Chrisplayfair

flyingsnail wrote: »

I find it a bit strange that they would be allowed to drive them again without any refresher training but I am not that familiar with the inner working / rules on NIR so I will take your word on that.

What refresher training is there to do?? They are identical driving to a 111 class GM....

Hungerford

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I trust that you were at last weeks RPSI AGM to raise this vital matter which worries you so much, you that are willing to help out to achieve your suggestions which are obviously things the RPSI never ever thought of, able to donate cash to see your plans to fruition, train in drivers, fit safety equipment, marshall trains, sell tickets, plan trips et al :rolleyes:

So for my criticisms of the RPSI to be valid I need to have money, be a Baby GM driver trainer, a fitter, a guard, a ticket seller and a trip planner all rolled into one? :eek:

It's remarkable how every criticism of an Irish organisation is dismissed as begrudgery. My comments are constructive criticism centred on the fact that the society has suffered multiple failures and is now reliant on NIR/IE motive power but has the means within its disposal to have avoided such an unfortunate situation.

corktina

in view of the Mk2 stock used nowadays (which doesnt look too good ) 141 or 2 cut in behind the train loco wouldn't look too amiss and would guarantee they got home.

Losty Dublin

Hungerford wrote: »

So for my criticisms of the RPSI to be valid I need to have money, be a Baby GM driver trainer, a fitter, a guard, a ticket seller and a trip planner all rolled into one? :eek:

It's remarkable how every criticism of an Irish organisation is dismissed as begrudgery. My comments are constructive criticism centred on the fact that the society has suffered multiple failures and is now reliant on NIR/IE motive power but has the means within its disposal to have avoided such an unfortunate situation.

Not at all but at this stage voluntary groups all over the world are well used to your sort of talk. They should do this, that, not this, do it another way, rebuild, relay, renew, retrain etc etc. So with that in mind, are you offering your services to, as you see it, improve the RPSI?

Somehow I doubt it

flyingsnail

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

What refresher training is there to do?? They are identical driving to a 111 class GM....

While the general look and cab layout maybe the same the are far from being the same to drive. With different power ratings, braking and acceleration curves and equipment layouts they are very different locomotives.

CaptainFreedom

Judgement Day wrote: »

Care to enlighten us as to the source of your knowledge? :rolleyes:

Many sources, most of which actually set out what they planned to achieve