Christian girl with Down syndrome may face death penalty

In Pakistan a muslim can accuse a non-muslim (Kafir) with blasphemy. The penalty is usually death or a life sentance, but the funny thing is that no one can repeat what was said because it is blasphemy so it is basically your word against theirs, and in an islamic court a muslim's word is better than a kafir's.


Pretty mental eh?

Sunnyisland

TeddyTedson wrote: »

They won't kill her, trust me on this![/QUOTE]


Well thats it, Ted is on the case, all sorted :):)

alastair

realies wrote: »

TeddyTedson wrote: »

They won't kill her, trust me on this![/QUOTE]


Well thats it, Ted is on the case, all sorted :):)

No-one has ever been (legally) executed for blasphemy in Pakistan. I doubt they would start with a Down Syndrome girl, do you?

later12

It is probably worth considering that the people who make the laws in Pakistan are a Government. You can certainly blame them for how they are interpreting a religion, but unless you can show that this is something expressly laid out in whatever their religious code decrees, then actually blaming Islam seems a bit odd.

Our legislation & 'moral code' is largely informed by Christian morality; but it would be rather something else entirely to suggest that Christianity is our legal code.

Similarly in Islam, it seems to me as an outsider that most countries with Islamist governments or movements interpret laws completely differently; just look at the chasms that exist between Egypt, Turkey, Malaysia and Iran.

Still though, I think Islam is taking a bit too much flack recently.

Islam is the new enemy now that Communism bit the dust.

later12

Edz87 wrote: »

In Pakistan a muslim can accuse a non-muslim (Kafir) with blasphemy. The penalty is usually death or a life sentance, but the funny thing is that no one can repeat what was said because it is blasphemy so it is basically your word against theirs, and in an islamic court a muslim's word is better than a kafir's.


Pretty mental eh?

alastair wrote: »

No-one has ever been (legally) executed for blasphemy in Pakistan. I doubt they would start with a Down Syndrome girl, do you?

Which one of these posts are inaccurate?

Bannasidhe

gvn wrote: »

Only sub-human animals would do this to any girl or boy or woman or man, regardless of having or not having a mental disability.

That's an insult to animals.

Only humans would do this. Humans who believe the words in a book are worth more than a life. Humans who believe that those who do not conform to the words in a book must be put to death. Islam is not the only religion with these kind of crazy humans.

alastair

later12 wrote: »

Which one of these posts are inaccurate?

Well, they're not actually contradictory...

later12

I don't see how "the penalty [for blasphemy] is usually death or a life sentence" and there not actually ever having been anybody legally executed for blasphemy could be not contradictory.

Either it is usually death or a life sentence in an Islamic court, or it has never legally happened. It cannot be both.

krudler

Edz87 wrote: »

Still though, I think Islam is taking a bit too much flack recently.

Islam is the new enemy now that Communism bit the dust.

much of it deserved, lot of backwards attitudes to women, gay people etc. hey why progress as a society when a 1400 year old book knows what to do.

alastair

later12 wrote: »

I don't see how "the penalty [for blasphemy] is usually death or a life sentence" and there not actually ever having been anybody legally executed for blasphemy could be not contradictory.

Either it is usually death or a life sentence in an Islamic court, or it has never legally happened. It cannot be both.

You can have a death sentence overturned - and no consequent execution. Which is the history of Pakistan's blasphemy law and capital punishment.

later12

alastair wrote: »

You can have a death sentence overturned - and no consequent execution. Which is the history of Pakistan's blasphemy law and capital punishment.

That makes no sense - in that case the death sentence is not the result; the result is life imprisonment. Therefore it is incorrect to say that the sentence is usually death or imprisonment. It is not. The sentence is always imprisonment.

Napper Hawkins

Biggins wrote: »

I respect the right of the Muslim world to see that their religion, its symbols and ways are respected - but I wish the hell that the nutters of that religion (and any other one that is fanatical) would calm the fcuk down and kop-on.

Respect is earned.

later12

later12 wrote: »

Which one of these posts are inaccurate?

Well someone from Pakistan told me that is the case there (IN RURAL PARTS) I must add.

She did a lot of humanitarian stuff outside the big cities and she said that it happens pretty regularly there.


Cities like Lahore and Karachi are pretty laid back when it comes to Religion when it suits political needs.

alastair

later12 wrote: »

That makes no sense - in that case the death sentence is not the result.

The penalty - a death sentence - can be delivered, but then overturned. That's generally what's involved in an appeal.

later12

alastair wrote: »

The penalty - a death sentence - can be delivered, but then overturned. That's generally what's involved in an appeal.

Okay, I have no idea why you are defending this. Saying that the sentence is usually the death penalty or life imprisonment when the sentence always ends up as life imprisonment is quite blatantly incorrect. I am sure this could not seriously be about the matter at hand, as there is no reasonable justification for defending that statement as accurate; so I'll leave you to it.

alastair

later12 wrote: »

Okay, I have no idea why you are defending this. Saying that the sentence is usually the death penalty or life imprisonment when the sentence always ends up as life imprisonment is quite blatantly incorrect. I am sure this could not seriously be about the matter at hand, as there is no reasonable justification for defending that statement as accurate; so I'll leave you to it.

A blasphemy conviction carries the death penalty although in practice it is not carried out in these cases.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13038060

Lower courts have handed down hundreds of convictions in these cases, but nearly all of them have been reversed by the higher courts due to lack of evidence, faults in due process or obvious wrongful motives on the part of the complainants. Hundreds of Christians are among the accused - at least 12 of them were given the death sentence for blaspheming against the Prophet.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12621225

MaxSteele

Nodin wrote: »

So they're all the same then?

It'd be nice if - just every now and again - we could condemn bigotry and ignorance without resorting to bigotry and ignorance.

I'm to be taken with a pinch of salt just so you know.

Well if a trial of this sickening type is the norm and accepted within the Pakistani judicial system, I'd say a lot of them seem to be the same to me.

minidazzler

So they hate Gay people, Jews, Disabled people and America. All while wanting to install their own ideals as the basis for every country...

Similar enough for comparison I think.

1ZRed

MagicMarker wrote: »

Note to self, cross Pakistan off the holiday destination list.

Unfortunately I'd have to cross off more than Pakistan, more like the whole middle east, many Caribbean islands and most of Africa just so I don't get thrown in prison, or worse.

Anyway such places that would do that wouldn't be deserving of my money, even though that's all they would want off me!

Cee-Jay-Cee

Nodin wrote: »

CJC999 wrote: »

I thought that Pakistan was developing into a modern progressive society, I was very wrong. They have shown themselves to be near barbaric animals...........

All of them?

Yeah pretty much, when a rabble of up to 1000 of them can gather in a short space of time with the intention of stoning someone to death then they are obviously in a majority. That is reinforced by the fact that the police were forced to arrest the girl for her own safety.

If it were only a few acting on extremist views/beliefs then they wouldn't have been able to force the police to take action. It's very clear that it was a popular opinion and so I'm going to tar them pretty much with the same brush.

af_thefragile

I love how stories like these bring out all the racists and Islamophobes.

From what I can see the details of the news reports are very sketchy. No one clearly knows what she did, why she has been arrested and what is to happen of her. All I see is the media trying to sensationalise a potential big news story.

krudler

af_thefragile wrote: »

I love how stories like these bring out all the racists and Islamophobes.

From what I can see the details of the news reports are very sketchy. No one clearly knows what she did, why she has been arrested and what is to happen of her. All I see is the media trying to sensationalise a potential big news story.

ugh, sick of people crying racist when you call fantatics out on their bullsh1t.

Nodin

CJC999 wrote: »

Yeah pretty much, when a rabble of up to 1000 of them can gather in a short space of time with the intention of stoning someone to death then they are obviously in a majority. That is reinforced by the fact that the police were forced to arrest the girl for her own safety.

If it were only a few acting on extremist views/beliefs then they wouldn't have been able to force the police to take action. It's very clear that it was a popular opinion and so I'm going to tar them pretty much with the same brush.

Who is overruling the verdicts then? The eskimos?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80338442&postcount=68

later12

CJC999 wrote: »

I'm going to tar them pretty much with the same brush.

I'd say that breaks your heart, does it.

DazMarz

Fair enough we don't know the full details on this case just yet, but let us not look over some facts we do know:

-countless women stoned to death for driving/showing too much ankle/speaking their minds
-gay teenagers hanged for being gay
-non-muslims murdered for being non-muslims
-death edicts being placed on intellectuals/authors/film-makers for speaking their minds and telling the truth
-countless people killed for no good reason (other than it was in the name of Allah)

fair enough, if this one case is wrong, but let's not forget the countless past cases where things that would have made the Nazis blanch have been committed.

alastair

DazMarz wrote: »

Fair enough we don't know the full details on this case just yet, but let us not look over some facts we do know:

-countless women stoned to death for driving/showing too much ankle/speaking their minds
-gay teenagers hanged for being gay
-non-muslims murdered for being non-muslims
-death edicts being placed on intellectuals/authors/film-makers for speaking their minds and telling the truth
-countless people killed for no good reason (other than it was in the name of Allah)

fair enough, if this one case is wrong, but let's not forget the countless past cases where things that would have made the Nazis blanch have been committed.

We've moved on from Pakistan then? Would you like a grab bag of injustice from the non-Islamic world to compliment your collection?

af_thefragile

af_thefragile wrote: »

I love how stories like these bring out all the racists and Islamophobes.

I think Islamophobia is a stupid moniker because how can it be a phobia when you know exactly why you dont like it..


(Stolen Glenn Wool joke, Saw him in Clonmel one night, some man.)

af_thefragile

^Everyone seems to have their reasons for liking or disliking everything...

krudler wrote: »

ugh, sick of people crying racist when you call fantatics out on their bullsh1t.

Well it looks more like some people just can't find enough opportunities to spill their guts out on how much they dislike muslims and Islam and how they're evil, backward, savage etc. etc...

DazMarz

alastair wrote: »

We've moved on from Pakistan then? Would you like a grab bag of injustice from the non-Islamic world to compliment your collection?

Fair point. but if you would care to listen to my equally vitriolic rants against all organised religions, I'd be happy to fill a book with them.

As I've mentioned, I have a special place in my heart for Christianity and Islam (both of them combined are the most dangerous forces fighting against humanity today), but this thread just happens to be against the injustices brought about by fanatical adherence to Islam.

alastair

DazMarz wrote: »

Fair point. but if you would care to listen to my equally vitriolic rants against all organised religions, I'd be happy to fill a book with them.

As I've mentioned, I have a special place in my heart for Christianity and Islam (both of them combined are the most dangerous forces fighting against humanity today), but this thread just happens to be against the injustices brought about by fanatical adherence to Islam.

How many religionists (of any variety - organised or otherwise), have subjected you to any manner of repression, violence, or abuse? Because if it's just down to religion, you must encounter this kind of thing on a daily basis, no? Or maybe there's some other factors at play?

DazMarz

alastair wrote: »

How many religionists (of any variety - organised or otherwise), have subjected you to any manner of repression, violence, or abuse? Because of it's just down to religion, you must encounter this kind of thing on a daily basis, no? Or maybe there's some other factors at play?

I was spat on in the street for speaking my mind. I was told I was going to hell on more than one occasion. It's not pretty.

I'm not getting into a debate with someone who probably subscribes to Alive! and would prefer for all atheists (like me) to stay quiet and not speak out against oppression.

alastair

DazMarz wrote: »

I was spat on in the street for speaking my mind.

'Speaking your mind' could mean many things tbh.

DazMarz wrote: »

I was told I was going to hell on more than one occasion. It's not pretty.

Do you believe in hell? Any skin off your nose?

DazMarz wrote: »

I'm not getting into a debate with someone who probably subscribes to Alive! and would prefer for all atheists (like me) to stay quiet and not speak out against oppression.

I'm an Alive! subscriber now, am I? The 'speaking my mind' thing starts to make some sense alright.

Nodin

DazMarz wrote: »

..............

I'm not getting into a debate with someone who probably subscribes to Alive! and would prefer for all atheists (like me) to stay quiet and not speak out against oppression.

He doesn't agree therefore hes an out-there conservative catholic...brilliant thought process there. Puts you way ahead of the people you condemn.

My name is URL

Edz87 wrote: »

I think Islamophobia is a stupid moniker because how can it be a phobia when you know exactly why you dont like it..

I never understood why anyone that doesn't appear to be surprised when they hear about stories like this coming out of Islamic countries is referred to as a racist/Islamaphobe.

Not all generalisations are always wrong. If you hear about a rape victim being stoned to death you're not going need to spend very long trying to guess which religion the people behind it are followers of. Of course it doesn't mean that every person of that religion is the same.. just that it's far far more likely to be followers of that religion who are guilty of it when it does happen..

Benny_Cake

DazMarz wrote: »

Fair point. but if you would care to listen to my equally vitriolic rants against all organised religions, I'd be happy to fill a book with them.

As I've mentioned, I have a special place in my heart for Christianity and Islam (both of them combined are the most dangerous forces fighting against humanity today), but this thread just happens to be against the injustices brought about by fanatical adherence to Islam.

There are over 2 billion Christians and 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today, about half of the human race. If they, combined, are fighting against humanity, then we have a global civil war on our hands. Some humans will always look for justification for hatred, greed, cruelty and bigotry, some find it in religion, and if religion didn't exist, they'd find another outlet for it.

galwayrush

Chuck Stone wrote: »

What a medieval ****-hole.

Aa medieval ****-holewith nuclear weapons...:eek:

DazMarz

meh, I'm not bothered trying to argue points with people who would prefer to keep the blinkers on and stick to reading their fairy tales from the bible and believing in a sky god and a jewish zombie.

I am actually finding it hard to keep any mask of respect for religion on. I have no respect, but sometimes try to be tactful. But it becomes increasingly hard. Why is it so goddamn important to believe what you believe or adhere to the same dogma everyone else adheres to? Let people choose what they want and leave them alone.

There is no place in a modern society for organised religion. All it does is hinder progress and cause conflict.

Icyseanfitz

whatever about religion, but the facts are that a young girl with a mental disability was arrested so she wouldnt be killed by a mob for burning a bit of paper... islamaphobia my arse more like craziesaphobia,
really does say a lot about the country when the state, government and fcuk it even the general population dont bat an eyelid at the people doing this stuff, bunch of nutters the lot of them

alastair

DazMarz wrote: »

meh, I'm not bothered trying to argue points with people who would prefer to keep the blinkers on and stick to reading their fairy tales from the bible and believing in a sky god and a jewish zombie.

You're pretty good with the blinkers yourself.

I'm actually an atheist - but I didn't tick the intolerant bigot option.

DazMarz

I have just seen far too many atrocities committed in the name of religion to have any respect for any religion. There is no good religion, and none of them do any good any more.

Sorry for going overboard maybe, and throwing out hyperbole. But I just cannot see how anyone could defend the actions of religious people on any of the atrocities they commit...:(

americano787

bluewolf wrote: »

Draconian prison terms for blasphemy charges are also common in Pakistan: in 2010, a Christian couple were sentenced to 25 years in jail on charges of touching a Koran with unwashed hands.


wtf

that and the girl's story are both off the wall
they're crazy

Why? I don't agree with their laws, but if you live in their country, you gotta live by their rules, no?

dirtyden

DazMarz wrote: »

I have just seen far too many atrocities committed in the name of religion to have any respect for any religion. There is no good religion, and none of them do any good any more.

Sorry for going overboard maybe, and throwing out hyperbole. But I just cannot see how anyone could defend the actions of religious people on any of the atrocities they commit...:(

The Dalia Lama is not a bad lad.

Did Mao kill 60 million people because he was an atheist, or stalin?

People can be **** be they religious or atheist.

Benny_Cake

DazMarz wrote: »

Sorry for going overboard maybe, and throwing out hyperbole. But I just cannot see how anyone could defend the actions of religious people on any of the atrocities they commit...:(

Who is defending atrocities? Seriously, who on this thread, religious or otherwise, would support the murder of a child with Downs Syndrome because of Pakistan's backward and ridiculous blasphemy laws? Or is it just guilt by association?

af_thefragile

DazMarz wrote: »

I have just seen far too many atrocities committed in the name of religion to have any respect for any religion. There is no good religion, and none of them do any good any more.

Worse atrocities have been committed that have nothing to do with religion.
In fact most of the major wars and genocides of the 19th, 20th and 21st century had little to do with religion and the 20th century was the most bloody century in all of humankind.

You could go even further and argue most wars, save a handful had absolutely nothing to do with religion.

DazMarz

Stalin did not murder people in the name of Atheism. He was a bad man who just happened to be atheist. He murdered people for his own gratification and for the furthering of his aims.

People do, however, get killed in the name of religion. Day in, day out.

The issue has gotten carried away, mostly by myself, I will admit. It has gotten off from the initial topic and I began discussing religious atrocities across the board.

But I would consider the government of Pakistan culpable in a big way for this current situation; they are not doing much to intervene.

DazMarz

af_thefragile wrote: »

Worse atrocities have been committed that have nothing to do with religion.
In fact most of the major wars and genocides of the 19th, 20th and 21st century had little to do with religion and the 20th century was the most bloody century in all of humankind.

You could go even further and argue most wars, save a handful had absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Just because religion does not necessarily cause war, does not make it a good thing. It hinders progress, stifles free thought and encourages people to blindly accept mindless dogma.

dirtyden

DazMarz wrote: »

Stalin did not murder people in the name of Atheism. He was a bad man who just happened to be atheist. He murdered people for his own gratification and for the furthering of his aims.

People do, however, get killed in the name of religion. Day in, day out.

The issue has gotten carried away, mostly by myself, I will admit. It has gotten off from the initial topic and I began discussing religious atrocities across the board.

But I would consider the government of Pakistan culpable in a big way for this current situation; they are not doing much to intervene.

Well he did purge a lot of priests. He was anti religion. An argument could be made that this drove some of his atrocities do you not think?

dirtyden

DazMarz wrote: »

Just because religion does not necessarily cause war, does not make it a good thing. It hinders progress, stifles free thought and encourages people to blindly accept mindless dogma.

Replace religion with communism and that point also stands up.

Blind faith in anything is probably a bad thing. Whilst i am not religious a lot of religious people are also quite open minded. I think you may be pigeon holing a little.

af_thefragile

DazMarz wrote: »

Just because religion does not necessarily cause war, does not make it a good thing. It hinders progress, stifles free thought and encourages people to blindly accept mindless dogma.

No it doesn't. What makes you believe if religion was removed from society those things would disappear away too?

There have been many examples of Socialist nations without religion that have had totalitarian governments and committed many atrocities. Soviet Russia is the best example of this.

And history has proven that great scientific progress has been made in religious societies many times by deeply religious people. All religion does is tries to stop people from taking things too far.

Most western nations in the 19th and early 20th century used science to back their policy of Eugenics and performed great atrocities. The Japanese and Nazi scientists saw no problem in performing cruel human experiments all in the name of scientific progress and saw nothing wrong or immoral in what they were doing.

Why don't you have a hatred for science for having caused so much human suffering??!