Christian girl with Down syndrome may face death penalty

SocSocPol

krudler wrote: »

much of it deserved, lot of backwards attitudes to women, gay people etc. hey why progress as a society when a 1400 year old book knows what to do.

We talking about Cardinels Ratziniger and Brady? Or Free Prebeterians? Or Bible Belt Christians in missuri?

DazMarz

af_thefragile wrote: »

Why don't you have a hatred for science for having caused so much human suffering??!

Because it has done more than enough to provide us with better lives. The computer you typed your reply on? The electricity powering that computer? The phone line to provide your internet? The medicine you take (at some point, you have taken or will take medicine)? The fridge in your kitchen with your food in it? The additives in foods to help their flavour and shelf-life? The car/bus you use? The lights in your house? The materials to build your house?

Practically every little thing in our lives that gives us so much have been produced (or improved upon) thanks to scientific endeavour. And also, I know of nobody who has killed in the name of science (except in "South Park"). The Nazi eugenicists, Soviet scientists and so on were doing it for their regimes, not in the name of science. Science has not nearly caused as much misery as religion has. Not a chance.

SocSocPol

DazMarz wrote: »

Because it has done more than enough to provide us with better lives. The computer you typed your reply on? The electricity powering that computer? The phone line to provide your internet? The medicine you take (at some point, you have taken or will take medicine)? The fridge in your kitchen with your food in it? The additives in foods to help their flavour and shelf-life? The car/bus you use? The lights in your house? The materials to build your house?

Practically every little thing in our lives that gives us so much have been produced (or improved upon) thanks to scientific endeavour. And also, I know of nobody who has killed in the name of science (except in "South Park"). The Nazi eugenicists, Soviet scientists and so on were doing it for their regimes, not in the name of science. Science has not nearly caused as much misery as religion has. Not a chance.

You forgot Zyklon B, The Atom Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Agent Orange, Napham,The machine gun,Cruise Missiles, armed drones etc etc etc

DazMarz

SocSocPol wrote: »

You forgot Zyklon B, The Atom Bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Agent Orange, Napham,The machine gun,Cruise Missiles, armed drones etc etc etc

So, would you prefer a life without all the comforts science has provided for humanity? Yes, it has provided the above.

So, if you are so anti-science and believe it produces more suffering than it does good... go to it. Shut down your computer right now, disconnect everything from electricity, rid yourself of all technology and live life in a humble existence with no influence from scientific discoveries.

No... I thought not...

And also, Zyklon B, Atom bombs, agent organge... yes, they get used by average people on a daily basis. The gentle glow of an atom bomb fireplace is really something.

Get real.

Science has done more for mankind and has helped more people than religions ever could. Religion offers empty answers and empty promises. Science offers medicine and technology that actually work and improve our lives.

Jimoslimos

americano787 wrote: »

Why? I don't agree with their laws, but if you live in their country, you gotta live by their rules, no?

The girl is Pakistani, it's her country too

ejmaztec

DazMarz wrote: »

Because it has done more than enough to provide us with better lives. The computer you typed your reply on? The electricity powering that computer? The phone line to provide your internet? The medicine you take (at some point, you have taken or will take medicine)? The fridge in your kitchen with your food in it? The additives in foods to help their flavour and shelf-life? The car/bus you use? The lights in your house? The materials to build your house?

Practically every little thing in our lives that gives us so much have been produced (or improved upon) thanks to scientific endeavour. And also, I know of nobody who has killed in the name of science (except in "South Park"). The Nazi eugenicists, Soviet scientists and so on were doing it for their regimes, not in the name of science. Science has not nearly caused as much misery as religion has. Not a chance.

There's always a good leap in scientific achievement in times of war. If it weren't for a good few wars we wouldn't have half the technology that we have now.

Jimoslimos

DazMarz wrote: »

Because it has done more than enough to provide us with better lives. The computer you typed your reply on? The electricity powering that computer? The phone line to provide your internet? The medicine you take (at some point, you have taken or will take medicine)? The fridge in your kitchen with your food in it? The additives in foods to help their flavour and shelf-life? The car/bus you use? The lights in your house? The materials to build your house?

Practically every little thing in our lives that gives us so much have been produced (or improved upon) thanks to scientific endeavour. And also, I know of nobody who has killed in the name of science (except in "South Park"). The Nazi eugenicists, Soviet scientists and so on were doing it for their regimes, not in the name of science. Science has not nearly caused as much misery as religion has. Not a chance.

Science (and religion for that matter) isn't inherently good or bad. Application is what matters in both cases. Believing in a god doesn't make you any less moral than an atheist (a touch deluded perhaps )

The only difference is that science can be challenged and as a result, accepted/discarded/improved upon as is fit - the same cannot be said for religion

af_thefragile

DazMarz wrote: »

Because it has done more than enough to provide us with better lives. The computer you typed your reply on? The electricity powering that computer? The phone line to provide your internet? The medicine you take (at some point, you have taken or will take medicine)? The fridge in your kitchen with your food in it? The additives in foods to help their flavour and shelf-life? The car/bus you use? The lights in your house? The materials to build your house?

Practically every little thing in our lives that gives us so much have been produced (or improved upon) thanks to scientific endeavour. And also, I know of nobody who has killed in the name of science (except in "South Park"). The Nazi eugenicists, Soviet scientists and so on were doing it for their regimes, not in the name of science. Science has not nearly caused as much misery as religion has. Not a chance.

You didn't get my point at all.

No one does anything bad for religion or for science. They do it for their own benefit.

Science is not exclusive of religion. Many great scientific discoveries without which most of modern science wouldn't have developed, were done by scientists who were also deeply religious people and even historically great scientific and technological progress was made under religious nations.

My point was all religion does is stop people from taking things too far. Religion provides (or provided) the morality so that people could develop an ethical code through which their scientific endeavours wouldn't cause any harm or suffering. Without ethical boundaries people can cause great atrocities through science. The Nazi and Japanese scientists were performing human experiments for scientific reasons to understand processes in the human body better. Yes their ultimate aim was to strengthen their regimes but that is the aim of most nations which funds scientific research. USA spends 4 billion dollars every year so that their scientists can develop better weapons to kill people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israel spends many billions in scientific research so that it can make its regime stronger and resist those who're trying to free the Palestinians from their oppression.

Neither religion or science on its own has caused any misery. Its the people who use religion and science for their benefit that cause misery.

dirtyden

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Science (and religion for that matter) isn't inherently good or bad. Application is what matters in both cases. Believing in a god doesn't make you any less moral than an atheist (a touch deluded perhaps )

The only difference is that science can be challenged and as a result, accepted/discarded/improved upon as is fit - the same cannot be said for religion

Not strictly true.

It depends upon ones faith. You have heard of the reformation?

cometogether

DazMarz wrote: »

Once again, Islam makes itself look so good in modern society. If you thought they just murdered gays and free-thinking women, watch out! They've got a whole new line of murder victims just waiting to be rolled out for Autumn 2012! The mentally disabled! What better way to show Allah how seriously we take our religion by murdering people with mental disabilities? That's much more deep and meaningful than murdering gay teenagers or women who want to drive!

Jesus, what is wrong with that religion? I mean, seriously?

Nothing particularly wrong with the religion itself, just the people who are fundamentalist animals and who act upon it.

namloc1980

DazMarz wrote: »

Once again, Islam makes itself look so good in modern society. If you thought they just murdered gays and free-thinking women, watch out! They've got a whole new line of murder victims just waiting to be rolled out for Autumn 2012! The mentally disabled! What better way to show Allah how seriously we take our religion by murdering people with mental disabilities? That's much more deep and meaningful than murdering gay teenagers or women who want to drive!

Jesus, what is wrong with that religion? I mean, seriously?

There's nothing wrong with the religion...it's some of the fundmentalist freaks who use it are the problem.

Jimoslimos

dirtyden wrote: »

Not strictly true.

It depends upon ones faith. You have heard of the reformation?

I had forgotten about the Reformation but aside from the notions of curing the church of corruption I'd say the main attraction for many countries was the transfer of power away from Rome.

Same principle applies for the counter-reformation.

SocSocPol

DazMarz wrote: »

So, would you prefer a life without all the comforts science has provided for humanity? Yes, it has provided the above.

So, if you are so anti-science and believe it produces more suffering than it does good... go to it. Shut down your computer right now, disconnect everything from electricity, rid yourself of all technology and live life in a humble existence with no influence from scientific discoveries.

No... I thought not...

And also, Zyklon B, Atom bombs, agent organge... yes, they get used by average people on a daily basis. The gentle glow of an atom bomb fireplace is really something.

Get real.

Science has done more for mankind and has helped more people than religions ever could. Religion offers empty answers and empty promises. Science offers medicine and technology that actually work and improve our lives.

tell that to the victims of the Holocaust, to the victims and families of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the victims still being born today of Agent Orange etc, pointing out that science is not the be all and end all does not make one anti-science, but those who think science is perfect and has ONLY had a positive impact on society are the ones who need to get real.Some basterds abuse religion to accomplish their goals, other basterds abuse science to accomplish theirs, neither science nor religion are to blame, basterds are!

cometogether

SocSocPol wrote: »

tell that to the victims of the Holocaust, to the victims and families of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the victims still being born today of Agent Orange etc, pointing out that science is not the be all and end all does not make one anti-science, but those who think science is perfect and has ONLY had a positive impact on society are the ones who need to get real.Some basterds abuse religion to accomplish their goals, other basterds abuse science to accomplish theirs, neither science nor religion are to blame, basterds are!

Em, I'm pretty sure that the Holocaust was religiously motivated.........

namloc1980

SocSocPol wrote: »

tell that to the victims of the Holocaust, to the victims and families of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the victims still being born today of Agent Orange etc, pointing out that science is not the be all and end all does not make one anti-science, but those who think science is perfect and has ONLY had a positive impact on society are the ones who need to get real.Some basterds abuse religion to accomplish their goals, other basterds abuse science to accomplish theirs, neither science nor religion are to blame, basterds are!

Who said science ONLY has had a positive effect....

dirtyden

cometogether wrote: »

Em, I'm pretty sure that the Holocaust was religiously motivated.........

How was it religiously motivated?

cometogether

dirtyden wrote: »

How was it religiously motivated?

The majority of victims were Jewish, based on Hitler's hatred of the Jewish religion

af_thefragile

cometogether wrote: »

The majority of victims were Jewish, based on Hitler's hatred of the Jewish religion

His hatred wasn't religiously motivated though. It was more economic and scientific (for the time).

dirtyden

cometogether wrote: »

The majority of victims were Jewish, based on Hitler's hatred of the Jewish religion

He hated the race. I do not believe he had any idea about the actual religion.

His madness was racially motivated. I thought that was well known.

Bannasidhe

af_thefragile wrote: »

His hatred wasn't religiously motivated though. It was more economic and scientific (for the time).

So you don't think Martin Luther's anti-Semitism had any impact on German Lutheranism and by extension German/Austrian society?

And Godwin's law strikes again.

SocSocPol

cometogether wrote: »

Em, I'm pretty sure that the Holocaust was religiously motivated.........

DazMar certainly inferred it.
I am simply making the point that neither religion nor science are perfect as they are both open to abuse.

SocSocPol

gvn wrote: »

And Godwin's law strikes again.

How exactly?

Cossax

Bannasidhe wrote: »

So you don't think Martin Luther's anti-Semitism had any impact on German Lutheranism and by extension German/Austrian society?

Isn't Austria historically a Catholic country?

Bannasidhe

Cossax wrote: »

Isn't Austria historically a Catholic country?

Yes, but I thought I should mention it as Hitler was Austrian -albeit one who considered himself part of a greater German race. German culture was what he idolised and sought to venerate.

El Weirdo

gvn wrote: »

And Godwin's law strikes again.

Pretty sure that happened back on page 2.

Scruffles

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

whatever about religion, but the facts are that a young girl with a mental disability was arrested so she wouldnt be killed by a mob for burning a bit of paper... islamaphobia my arse more like craziesaphobia,
really does say a lot about the country when the state, government and fcuk it even the general population dont bat an eyelid at the people doing this stuff, bunch of nutters the lot of them

even now most countries on a varying level lack basic respect,tolerance and care for developmentaly/ learning/intelectualy disabled people,we are treated very lesser and different than general society.
its nothing new we;amongst other impaired folks are seen on the lowest rungs of humanity,in pakistan people with LD/DD/ID are often used as unknowing suicide bombers; unfortunately seen as very expendable,these extremists are predators and prey on vulnerabilities such as being far to trusting and not questioning what are being told.

however this situation in pakistan is not something to be associated with muslims as a whole its part of culture and specific upbringing of a particular country more so than religeon.
the muslim locals that have grassed on this young girl are quick to denie her of impairment and cast her out as some joe blogs to be held to account for what she is accused of,although have not seen a photo of the girl to suggest she has downs, from the descriptions have read of her behavior;she most definitely isnt a normie-she sounds autistic but without any evidence its just guessing,though she wasnt even able to understand the questions put to her properly.

in the residential centre am living in,one of the adult lads is of pakistani origin,despite being a wish of his he has been told he will never be able to go on holiday to visit his family in pakistan because with his behaviors he woud have his hands cut off and worse.
originaly family from pakistan refused to acknowledge his conditions like autism, learning disability and intelectual impairment and their method of controling him was a big stick and holy water blessed by an imam,they assumed they had done something wrong in life and were being punished by evil in their son.
however his close family are amazing in what they understand now,and they care about all of us.
his mosque is very understanding of his disabilities and he doesnt have to do any of the 'tough' bits of his religeon,such as fasting;he gets to do the 'good' bits like gorging on nice food and geting presents.
itd be rather insulting to the muslims who are more open, compasionate to others regardless of group and less manipulative of the quaraan to be associated with the extremists,just as regular christians woudnt want to be represented by those loony toons at the westboro baptist church,or satanists represented by the christian evil view of satanism,or scientologists represented by that muppet who denied his sons autism,his wifes mental health problems and flies a plane...

large waffle over and out.

Nodin

DazMarz wrote: »

meh, I'm not bothered trying to argue points with people who would prefer to keep the blinkers on and stick to reading their fairy tales from the bible and believing in a sky god and a jewish zombie.
.........

Well aren't you the strident fellow.

DazMarz

Nodin wrote: »

Well aren't you the strident fellow.

I thought the public tarring and feathering of the outspoken atheist had concluded for the day, no? Let's keep it going if you like. I can keep going all night long.

But just for your own edification; I find religion repugnant. It is little wonder that organised religion is dying, and I need to get all my mudslinging and insulting done before it finally lies down and dies.

"Good men do good things. Evil men do evil things. But for good men to do evil things, it takes religion."

Sums it up for me.

Nodin

DazMarz wrote: »

I thought the .......... But for good men to do evil things, it takes religion."

Sums it up for me.

And I thought it was the religous ones who liked to think they were being martyred.

What makes you think you're being "tarred and feathered" because you're an atheist?

wes

DazMarz wrote: »

"Good men do good things. Evil men do evil things. But for good men to do evil things, it takes religion."

That quote make little sense. Plenty of "Good" people have done awful things for other things e.g. Communism, Nationalism, various Revolutions etc. The list of awful things done by people in the name of various ideologies, who taught themselves good men, is huge. Its simple absurd to make the above claim, when anyone with a basic knowledge of history, would know that lots of horrible things were done for what the perpetrators taught as the greater good

Also, if someone is doing something horrible, I generally wouldn't class them as "Good", as surely they should be judged as not being "Good" on the basis of there actions.

DazMarz

Nodin wrote: »

And I thought it was the religous ones who liked to think they were being martyred.

What makes you think you're being "tarred and feathered" because you're an atheist?

Ha.

And I expressed my views. My views are very atheistic, and for these I'm being torn apart. By people who are, no doubt, clinging to old beliefs.

Religion is dying, slowly but surely.

I also use sarcasm and hyperbole extensively when I'm writing. Much of this seems to be lost on you.

DazMarz

wes wrote: »

That quote make little sense. Plenty of "Good" people have done awful things for other things e.g. Communism, Nationalism, various Revolutions etc. The list of awful things done by people in the name of various ideologies, who taught themselves good men, is huge. Its simple absurd to make the above claim, when anyone with a basic knowledge of history, would know that lots of horrible things were done for what the perpetrators taught as the greater good

Also, if someone is doing something horrible, I generally wouldn't class them as "Good", as surely they should be judged as not being "Good" on the basis of there actions.

It's an old quote and it's a quote I like. Used by Richard Dawkins quite a bit. Maybe it's not totally correct, but I just happen to like the quote. I find it apt, considering the content of the thread.

up for anything

I think this topic has been done to death.

Nodin

DazMarz wrote: »

Ha.

And I expressed my views. My views are very atheistic, and for these I'm being torn apart. By people who are, no doubt, clinging to old beliefs.
..........

Rrrrrrrreally...........

That's mad, because I was 100% sure I was tearing you apart because of statements like "I'm not getting into a debate with someone who probably subscribes to Alive! and would prefer for all atheists (like me) to stay quiet and not speak out against oppression."

What old beliefs am I clinging to....?

raftni

DazMarz wrote: »

I thought the public tarring and feathering of the outspoken atheist had concluded for the day, no? Let's keep it going if you like. I can keep going all night long.

But just for your own edification; I find religion repugnant. It is little wonder that organised religion is dying, and I need to get all my mudslinging and insulting done before it finally lies down and dies.

"Good men do good things. Evil men do evil things. But for good men to do evil things, it takes religion."

Sums it up for me.

Ah, the slimey reptilian atheist comes out and waves his big willy around and lets the world know how intelligent he is, how omnipotent he is and how using big words makes him appear smarter than he actually is.

Word of advice, stick to the 9 - 5, it won't stress your baby brains out too much and you'll come across as less of a cunt.

P.S. Reading the sleeve of The Blind Watchmaker doesn't make you an expert on the universe.

pontia

but when a huge mosque is being built in clongriffen people are afraid to speak up.pc bull

PieForPi

Don't know why people are blaming the religion, it's as outdated as Christianity. You know, that thing that 86% of you claim to be part of, that had laws made in 2009 to protect its fluffy status here?

This behaviour is a result of poverty and a lack of education, that's all.

wes

DazMarz wrote: »

It's an old quote and it's a quote I like. Used by Richard Dawkins quite a bit. Maybe it's not totally correct, but I just happen to like the quote. I find it apt, considering the content of the thread.

I fail to see how Richard Dawkins using the quote, makes it any less ridiculous. Famous people can be wrong just like the rest of us.

Also, the content of the thread has no impact on whether the quote make any sense either way.

I also notice, you ignored all criticism that I made in regard to that view, which as I said earlier make no sense at all, and I have yet to see anything to change my view in that regard. That quote is just very silly.

alastair

pontia wrote: »

but when a huge mosque is being built in clongriffen people are afraid to speak up.pc bull

Yeah - lock up your daughters. :rolleyes:

PieForPi

pontia wrote: »

but when a huge mosque is being built in clongriffen people are afraid to speak up.pc bull

What's wrong with Irish muslims? Are they not allowed have somewhere to practice their religion?

What is there to speak up about?

Bannasidhe

PieForPi wrote: »

What's wrong with Irish muslims? Are they not allowed have somewhere to practice their religion?

What is there to speak up about?

Apparently they are but only because some p.c. bovine is too afraid to stop them.

PieForPi

DazMarz wrote: »

And I expressed my views. My views are very atheistic, and for these I'm being torn apart. By people who are, no doubt, clinging to old beliefs.

Persecution complex much?

I'm an atheist myself and to be honest, your ego and apparent superiority for having read a few Dawkins quotes has me cringing.

Yeah, the way to defeat religion is by throwing abuse at those who are afraid to let go of it and letting them know how much better than them you are. Go you, you hero.

Nodin

pontia wrote: »

but when a huge mosque is being built in clongriffen people are afraid to speak up.pc bull

Not you though. You're not afraid to stand up and make a sweeping generalisation that takes in over a Billion people, dozens of countries and cultures, sects and levels of devotion. You'll bravely walk in there with the one brush and get tarrin. Fair play to ye.

DazMarz

Nodin wrote: »

Rrrrrrrreally...........

That's mad, because I was 100% sure I was tearing you apart because of statements like "I'm not getting into a debate with someone who probably subscribes to Alive! and would prefer for all atheists (like me) to stay quiet and not speak out against oppression."

What old beliefs am I clinging to....?

I'm guessing you're a Catholic. Maybe not the most devout one going or maybe even lapsed, but you're defending religion. Maybe not directly, but by attacking a poster who's attacking religion it amounts to the same thing.

raftni wrote: »

Ah, the slimey reptilian atheist comes out and waves his big willy around and lets the world know how intelligent he is, how omnipotent he is and how using big words makes him appear smarter than he actually is.

Word of advice, stick to the 9 - 5, it won't stress your baby brains out too much and you'll come across as less of a cunt.

P.S. Reading the sleeve of The Blind Watchmaker doesn't make you an expert on the universe.

How charming. How very, very charming. I particularly like the "slimy [spelling, darling] reptilian" bit. That was inspired. I actually laughed out loud while reading this post.

I'm not joking, that post really brightened up my evening. It was seriously hilarious.

Kudos.

alastair

DazMarz wrote: »

I'm guessing you're a Catholic. Maybe not the most devout one going or maybe even lapsed, but you're defending religion. Maybe not directly, but by attacking a poster who's attacking religion it amounts to the same thing.

He's 'attacking' your bigoted approach to those who don't share your views. You'd do well to listen to what the scientist says:

You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being.

Albert Einstein.

DazMarz

PieForPi wrote: »

Persecution complex much?

I'm an atheist myself and to be honest, your ego and apparent superiority for having read a few Dawkins quotes has me cringing.

Yeah, the way to defeat religion is by throwing abuse at those who are afraid to let go of it and letting them know how much better than them you are. Go you, you hero.

I don't feel persecuted, per sé, but I just find that not being able to voice my own opinion without being put to the sword is a bit off-putting.

I don't mean to be egotistical, and I don't feel superior. And I have read most of his bibliography and follow his work.

I'm not trying to defeat religion. I just find it hard to fathom how people can still believe in some of the things it claims.

Nodin

DazMarz wrote: »

I'm guessing you're a Catholic.

By jaysus theres no pullin the wool over your eyes. You're the quick one and no mistake.

DazMarz wrote: »

Maybe not the most devout one going or maybe even lapsed, but you're defending religion. Maybe not directly, but by attacking a poster who's attacking religion it amounts to the same thing.

Widen the goal posts there, good man.

Assuming somebody subscribes to "alive" magazine because they disagree with you is "attacking religion"? Ye learn something new all the time. Mind you, you've read a Dawkins book, so you have all the info.

pontia

not a day seems to go by without a stoning or threats to kill someone for drawing a cartoon.if your happy to have that type of intolerence next door to you go ahead.strange any of this stuff is rarely condemmed by the higher ups in their religion

DazMarz

This gets better by the minute...

The most vocal voice of dissent against religion in this thread is branded a bigot (amongst other things) and is decried for not respecting opinions or beliefs of others...

Exactly what are you lot doing to my opinions and beliefs? Disrespecting them. At least I never resorted to name-calling or anything of that nature.

Extremely convicted and passionate about my beliefs, that's all. If I have to go to extremes to get my point across, so be it.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I use sarcasm and hyperbole a lot in my posts, and the "Alive" comment was one such ocassion. It was not meant in seriousness; it was a cynical jab that I made. It doesn't need to be dragged up as much.