leaving cert/points system obsession

ford fiesta

just a quick rant...why is this country and its media obsessed with the junior and leaving cert and only photograph students on the front page of the times/independent/examiner etc who get 9 A1's or near and not those students that are happy with, say, 290 points.

then the cao offers are out today and just watching the 6pm rte news, the focus is on high pointed courses (trinity etc)and shows a student getting his cao offer of science in trinity, which is fairly high points. again, why dont they show the student getting his sligo I.T. business course (and again is happy with it).

is there any relevance on the average leaving cert and low third level pointed courses anymore?

Lord TSC

Despite the fact said focus is usually on the highest of the upper classes with all the nessecary advantages, I for one welcome all celebrations of this country's best and brightest.

God knows, they probably won't be in the country much longer....

Tombi!

What would be more impressive: the person who memorized six books or the person memorized 9 books?

NegativeCreep

Haha yeah. I have to laugh when I hear them going on and on about Trinity and how much the points have gone up without so much as a mention of any of the IT's, which, by the way, have seen a huge jump in points this year as well.
It's just an example of the snobbery in Ireland and especially in the media. I'm happy with my 360 points and I'm delighted with the course I got as well I guess being happy with what you have doesn't sell newspapers or gain any viewers :rolleyes:

Zab

You want to celebrate mediocrity?

SEPT 23 1989

Maybe because the people in RTE went from school to college and straight in that institution and to them the Leaving Cert is a big thing,whereas people who live outside that bubble and survive in the real world know it has very little meaning in the grand scheme of things

PieForPi

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Maybe because the people in RTE went from school to college and straight in that institution and to them the Leaving Cert is a big thing,whereas people who live outside that bubble and survive in the real world know it has very little meaning in the grand scheme of things

In the grand scheme of things yes, it's not that important. In the short term it's extremely important.

Don't downplay the accomplishments of those who've done well this year and are being celebrated in the media just because you didn't do so yourself.

PieForPi

Zab wrote: »

You want to celebrate mediocrity?

Ah sure don't you know they're all winners

Who are you to say that my little Johnny, who we all know took the piss all year and skimmed by with 280 points, is less publish worthy than little Jack over there who studied all year and has some of the best grades in the country? He's no better than my Johnny I'm telling ya.

Napper Hawkins

The Leaving cert is like a contest between a dolphin and an elephant to see who is the fastest swimmer.

Richard Hillman

You can guarantee that kids on TV, Newspapers and radio that are on talking about their CAO offers have relations/neighbours in the said media outlets.

later12

I didn't actually know today was points day until I read this thread.

Wow, some serious points increases. Feel quite sorry for those who were unable to gain places in courses like Law, English & the Humanities just because of the mathematics bonus points; it sort of heaps unfairness onto an already unfair system.

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

an already unfair system.

What is unfair about it?

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

What is unfair about it?

The fact that you can be the most gifted student in the world at English literature, but that your leaving certificate grades for English literature are allocated the same weight as your grades for Engineering, Mathematics and Agricultural Science.

Similarly, no matter how good you are at Mathematics, you will not be able to get a place at say, TCD this year, unless you are exceptionally good in the humanities as well. That's unfair, I would suggest.

I'm not a massive fan of the UK system either btw, but I do think there needs to be some greater discrimination on behalf of HEAs in terms of how they allocate CAO points for entry onto undergraduate programs; after all, the CAO is their baby.

Ciaran0

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

What would be more impressive: the person who memorized six books or the person memorized 9 books?

Neither of those are impressive. Memorizing facts for an exam isn't what education should be about.

twinytwo

PieForPi wrote: »

What is unfair about it?

Because its retarded, if you want to do medicine for example your looking at having to hit the 600 point mark. Which means that unless you want to do nine+ subjects you have to do honours maths,french and irish. In reality what the **** has any of those got to do with medicine. So if your really bad at languages your instantly at a disadvantage over someone who isnt, even though it will have no bearing on weather you make a good doctor or not.

On top of that when i did my LC both my accounting and economics teachers predicated the entire paper question for question. Thats how pointless the LC is.

In france there is no points system anyone can do whatever they want to in uni so you could have 400/500 people starting out in a course and those that are willing to put in the work and want to be there stay, the rest leave after a few weeks.

PieForPi

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

It's "unfair" in that it takes nothing but a set of exams into account, however if you venture down the road of merit based assessment where extra curricular achievements are taken into account or similar then you're potentially entering a system of extreme unfairness.

1ZRed

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Haha yeah. I have to laugh when I hear them going on and on about Trinity and how much the points have gone up without so much as a mention of any of the IT's, which, by the way, have seen a huge jump in points this year as well.
It's just an example of the snobbery in Ireland and especially in the media. I'm happy with my 360 points and I'm delighted with the course I got as well I guess being happy with what you have doesn't sell newspapers or gain any viewers :rolleyes:

But once you get what you want, the points afterwards mean nothing! As long as you're happy, doing what you're interested in and bettering yourself further educationally, you're already doing pretty damn good regardless if you got 200 points or 600!

Congrats on the offer man

PieForPi

twinytwo wrote: »

Because its retarded, if you want to do medicine for example your looking at having to hit the 600 point mark. Which means that unless you want to do nine+ subjects you have to do honours maths,french and irish. In reality what the **** has any of those got to do with medicine. So if your really bad at languages your instantly at a disadvantage over someone who isnt, even though it will have no bearing on weather you make a good doctor or not.

So then they study harder to ensure they get the result they wanted. Leaving cert subjects aren't rocket science, there is a curriculum and those who do the most work get the most points generally.

In france there is no points system anyone can do whatever they want to in uni so you could have 400/500 people starting out in a course and those that are willing to put in the work and want to be there stay, the rest leave after a few weeks.

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

NegativeCreep

1ZRed wrote: »

But once you get what you want, the points afterwards mean nothing! As long as you're happy, doing what you're interested in and bettering yourself further educationally, you're already doing pretty damn good regardless if you got 200 points or 600!

Congrats on the offer man

I don't begrudge anyone getting 600 points. Fair balls to the, I couldn't be bothered getting that amount but fair play to them

ah thanks, it's not what I originally wanted but I researched the course more and I'm pretty damn happy
Did you get offered what you wanted?

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

Yeah but they don't need to be on the same pitch; they're going off in completely different directions.

If nothing else, I'd be worried about the quality of candidates emerging from the universities because of the points system. Often, very intelligent students will be particularly strong in their favoured area, say mathematics.

So a real worry would be that they are being lost in the system, or being pawned off to the ITs, because their grades in the humanities did not allow them to gain a place on one of the more prestigious mathematics courses where they might have excelled.

up for anything

PieForPi wrote: »

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Napper Hawkins

PieForPi wrote: »

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Yeah, those stupid French! What the **** do they know? Not like us Irish!

FFS

1ZRed

NegativeCreep wrote: »

I don't begrudge anyone getting 600 points. Fair balls to the, I couldn't be bothered getting that amount but fair play to them

ah thanks, it's not what I originally wanted but I researched the course more and I'm pretty damn happy
Did you get offered what you wanted?

Hopefully it turns out good. Either way it's still your ticket to college life!

Yes and no. If I sit my exam and pass it's mine but I'm not sure whether I'm up to intense college engineering Maths. I want to enjoy it not struggle along and hate it!

But I'm thinking of accepting my Biotechnology offer from NUIG so I'm happy with the options anyway

PieForPi

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

Yeah, those stupid French! What the **** do they know? Not like us Irish!

FFS

I didn't say our system was fantastic, did I? I merely said theirs sounds stupid, and it does. It's a logistical nightmare, for one, and puts undue stress on a system merely because it lets a load of people into courses they aren't actually capable of getting through.

If you're going to jump on hysteria and sensationalism then you may jog on elsewhere.

NegativeCreep

1ZRed wrote: »

Hopefully it turns out good. Either way it's still your ticket to college life!

Yes and no. If I sit my exam and pass it's mine but I'm not sure whether I'm up to intense college engineering Maths. I want to enjoy it not struggle along and hate it!

But I'm thinking of accepting my Biotechnology offer from NUIG so I'm happy with the options anyway

Biotechnology was what I wanted! But in Maynooth I'm jealous now :pac: The course I'm in now has biotechnology as part of it though so it's not too bad

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

I didn't say our system was fantastic, did I? I merely said theirs sounds stupid, and it does. It's a logistical nightmare, for one

They have the same system in Belgium. As a school leaver, you can do any course you want, with a few exceptions. I've never heard anything but good reports about it, and they have 2 more universities inside the Top 100 in the world than we do.

So that would be 2, then.

twinytwo

PieForPi wrote: »

So then they study harder to ensure they get the result they wanted. Leaving cert subjects aren't rocket science, there is a curriculum and those who do the most work get the most points generally.



That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Your also not taking into account, that they will only allow a certain number of A's in a subject each year... yes marking schemes can be revised if too many people are getting high results. Then you have a to look at public v private schools. I was lucky enough to do my leaving in a private school, there is no comparison. To say those who do the most work get the most points is not true.

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

Yeah but they don't need to be on the same pitch; they're going off in completely different directions.

If nothing else, I'd be worried about the quality of candidates emerging from the universities because of the points system. Often, very intelligent students will be particularly strong in their favoured area, say mathematics.

So a real worry would be that they are being lost in the system, or being pawned off to the ITs, because their grades in the humanities did not allow them to gain a place on one of the more prestigious mathematics courses where they might have excelled.

They may be going off in different directions but for the time being they're coming from the same one and have to be assessed based on that. When a day comes where true modularisation and a wide range of choice exists in the second level system then I absolutely agree, but for the time being they're all being taught the same classes (mostly) and the same curriculum and thus there's no room for special weighting.

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Yeah, I'm not too sure what to make of this myself. Even Ruari Quinn is rethinking the scheme now.

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

They may be going off in different directions but for the time being they're coming from the same one and have to be assessed based on that. When a day comes where true modularisation and a wide range of choice exists in the second level system then I absolutely agree, but for the time being they're all being taught the same classes (mostly) and the same curriculum and thus there's no room for special weighting.

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

On what planet does that not make sense?

1ZRed

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Biotechnology was what I wanted! But in Maynooth I'm jealous now :pac: The course I'm in now has biotechnology as part of it though so it's not too bad

Hah no way? I'm not getting why the demand is so high on it though? Then again, I'm the hardest guy to please when it comes to college courses! ;D

That sounds good anyway. If biotech is a part of your course it could open the door for you into full-on biotechnology or a transfer maybe? You'll be sorted either way.

twinytwo

later12 wrote: »

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

On what planet does that not make sense?

Exactly in this day and age being fluent in a foreign language is probally more important than maths. Besides anyone that as done engineering etc in uni knows that the leaving cert Honours maths dosent touch uni maths.

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

Our system can't accommodate that now and most likely won't for a long time to come, so we can talk about great "ifs" all day long but "ifs" is all they will remain for the time being.

You're also implying that there's flocks of brilliant mathematicians out there who can get bust an A out in higher maths no problem but suffer through a wishy washy subject like humanities and can't just beat the system that need special consideration taken for them. I don't believe this to be true.

gara

Where's the joy or incentive to do well if failure is treated just the same? Well done to those who worked hard to get what they want!

I'm glad people make a big deal about the Leaving Cert because formal education is a big deal -it has a huge impact on how you live the rest of your life and deserves to be taken seriously

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

You're also implying that there's flocks of brilliant mathematicians out there who can get bust an A out in higher maths no problem but suffer through a wishy washy subject like humanities and can't just beat the system that need special consideration taken for them. I don't believe this to be true.

Except I'm not. I'm just saying that people shouldn't be allowed to use their grades into the humanities as a pole vault to clear the entry requirements into scientific or mathematical programs.

I also cited vice versa examples for the humanities, where proficiency in science & maths is not critical or relevant.

americano787

In the USA, Our Education system is vastly superior to what you teach in Ireland. This is a fact.

PieForPi

later12 wrote: »

Except I'm not. I'm just saying that people shouldn't be allowed to use their grades into the humanities as a pole vault to clear the entry requirements into scientific or mathematical programs.

I also cited vice versa examples for the humanities, where proficiency in science & maths is not critical or relevant.

Ah, but most of the courses you're talking about also have minimum grade and subject requirements also, thus negating those who can do super in things like humanities but do badly at maths.

PieForPi

americano787 wrote: »

In the USA, Our Education system is vastly superior to what you teach in Ireland. This is a fact.

Yes, like the values of democracy http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/08/greene-county-virginia-gop-obama-revolution_n_1501510.html

later12

PieForPi wrote: »

Ah, but most of the courses you're talking about also have minimum grade and subject requirements also, thus negating those who can do super in things like humanities but do badly at maths.

Well the problem was never that there were people who were bad at maths getting into prestigious maths courses. And no it doesn't negate the anomaly, it alleviates it. That's not really good enough. There isn't a course in the country that requires you to have an A in a related school subject, for example. The most a lot of them require is an HB3, and even they are in the minority. As most people would agree, there is a massive difference between getting an HB3 in Mathematics, and a HA1.

So it doesn't negate it at all.

But more importantly, it still means students use courses like English and History to tip ahead of other candidates in more scientific fields (& vice versa).

Take the example again of maths in TCD. Points are 565.

The student who scores an A1 in Maths and Applied Maths, but gets Higher level Bs in everything else might not get in.

On the other hand, the student who gets a Higher B3 in Maths, and gets As in History, Art, English, Business, & Home Economics walks in without any problem.

Does that seem fair?

Red21

PieForPi wrote: »

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Yeah, what would the french know about education with their no pressure approach, they should come over here and we'd show them a thing or two. When educating young people the best method is pile um all in together and make the whole thing into one big terribly important competition thats the key to success. If you make the competition so important, a life and death situation, you'll sqeeze maximum results out of students even those who are least suited to the system will be forced to pick something up.
Leaving cert points = Happiness in later life, so work hard folks.

Taco Chips

later12 wrote: »

Take the example again of maths in TCD. Points are 565.

The student who scores an A1 in Maths and Applied Maths, but gets Higher level Bs in everything else might not get in.

On the other hand, the student who gets a Higher B3 in Maths, and gets As in History, Art, English, Business, & Home Economics walks in without any problem.

Does that seem fair?

But in real life, that doesn't happen. Applicants that have a B3 in Maths and then a distribution of As in other subjects like that aren't putting Maths in TCD on their CAO. I did TP in TCD last year which is a joint degree with the maths department and I don't think anyone in Maths or TP had less than a HB2 in LC Maths. People that are gifted at Maths in that way and making the effort to pursue it at higher level are overwhelmingly choosing science based courses where it is a key component anyway.

I'm glad that they highlight the high achievers. We live in a meritocratic society and at the end of the day, these students obtained outstanding results and demonstrated a lot of intelligence, hard work and ability. Why shouldn't they be praised? And the LC results are something that affect 50,000+ people at the same time every year in this country. So why wouldn't there be a spotlight on them? It's huge news.

Mully_2011

It will be interesting to see how many of these students drop out. The education system should try and focus a student into what they are interested in not "Ah Shure Ill do Science cos Jimmy down the road is doing it".I done a Biotech course and had no interest in it lasted two years before I dropped out but lucky I'm in a course I love now.

I know a girl who got 600 points and dropped out within a few months.

Do something you want to do not something your parents think you should be doing or "Ah shure I'll go to X and study Y because Jimmys doing it".

later12

Taco Chips wrote: »

But in real life, that doesn't happen. Applicants that have a B3 in Maths and then a distribution of As in other subjects like that aren't putting Maths in TCD on their CAO. I did TP in TCD last year which is a joint degree with the maths department and I don't think anyone in Maths or TP had less than a HB2 in LC Maths.

Okay...that doesn't really matter though.

I am not talking about Maths in TCD in particular, I'm using it as an illustration of how there is a design flaw in the CAO in terms of getting the most gifted students in a specific discipline into the best courses allied to that discipline.

In short, it rewards the all-rounder, not necessarily the outstanding student in a specific area.

Owen_S

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Seems fair, it's not as if the brightest English students in the country quoting Patrick Kavanagh and Shakespeare are going to lead this country out of the energy crisis.

sock puppet

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Not really. It's much easier to score highly in English than it is in Maths.

edit: obviously that's not true in any objective sense, but Irish students do better in English than Maths

randylonghorn

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

What would be more impressive: the person who memorized six books or the person memorized 9 books?

The person who understood one of them?

Owen_S wrote: »

Seems fair, it's not as if the brightest English students in the country quoting Patrick Kavanagh and Shakespeare are going to lead this country out of the energy crisis.

Nah, they're more likely to organise Arts Festivals and generate tourist revenue.

rahmalec

PieForPi wrote: »

You're also implying that there's flocks of brilliant mathematicians out there who can get bust an A out in higher maths no problem but suffer through a wishy washy subject like humanities and can't just beat the system that need special consideration taken for them. I don't believe this to be true.

Hmm I don't know about that.

I got A1s in higher maths and physics without too much bother and got a D1 in English and C something (don't remember the exact grade) in pass Irish. Thank God I could speak fluent French because I would have done crap there as well. Got an A1 in music as well but I had a slightly unfair advantage since I learned to read music at the age of 5!

I don't think this is uncommon, especially for math orientated people. We had a fair few similar square brained people in my physics course.

randylonghorn

Actually, maths and music go hand in hand more often than people might think.

okiss

I admire the people who get 6,7,8 or 9 A1 in the leaving certificate.
Every year at this time we here about these people but for some people getting the leaving cert is a major achievement.
A lot of students don't find out enough about the course they are going for and within a year they fail exams or drop out. Just because your friends or some one you know is doing a course does not mean you should do it.
Then you have the pushy parents who want there children to do med, vet, law, eng. pharmacy ect. They did not get there themselves but little Johnny or Mary will get there. You meet these parents and all you hear about is what and were Mary and Johnny are. By the time Mary and Johnny finish college they don't want to know the parents as I have seen happen to these type of parents.
Mary and Johnny don't want there new friends see the old house, car ect the parents have.

HavingCrack

Red21 wrote: »

Yeah, what would the french know about education with their no pressure approach, they should come over here and we'd show them a thing or two. When educating young people the best method is pile um all in together and make the whole thing into one big terribly important competition thats the key to success. If you make the competition so important, a life and death situation, you'll sqeeze maximum results out of students even those who are least suited to the system will be forced to pick something up.
Leaving cert points = Happiness in later life, so work hard folks.

Interestingly, the ranking of French students in literacy and mathematics in a lot of the OECD reports was generally below that of Irish students. It wasn't by much to be fair, only one or two places at most but the French education system at primary and secondary level does not appear to be churning out tonnes of people with greater mathematical or literacy abilities than Ireland. I don't think France is necessarily the education system to emulate. The top three were South Korea, the Netherlands and New Zealand as far as I remember, I have no idea what type of school exam they use though. Preformance at 3rd level and foreign language ability are however, something else entirely.

Fight_Night

HavingCrack wrote: »

Interestingly, the ranking of French students in literacy and mathematics in a lot of the OECD reports was generally below that of Irish students. It wasn't by much to be fair, only one or two places at most but the French education system at primary and secondary level does not appear to be churning out tonnes of people with greater mathematical or literacy abilities than Ireland. I don't think France is necessarily the education system to emulate. The top three were South Korea, the Netherlands and New Zealand as far as I remember, I have no idea what type of school exam they use though. Preformance at 3rd level and foreign language ability are however, something else entirely.

Fairly sure Finland is ranked higher than the Netherlands and NZ?

Anyway my take is that the points system is too flawed. I believe that each course should only have requirements relevant to the course. Now you can whinge and say "Ah but sure it won't change any time soon so stop complaining". Well not with that attitude it won't, but if you get enough people pressuring their local TDs we could begin to see a debate arise amongst ministers and finally get some change.

randylonghorn

Fight_Night wrote: »

I believe that each course should only have requirements relevant to the course.

I wouldn't really have any problem with that as a basic principle, but riddle me this, if you would ...

If there are 300 applicants for a course which has 150 places, and they all have the specified requirements for the course, how do you decide who gets in?