leaving cert/points system obsession

later12

randylonghorn wrote: »

I wouldn't really have any problem with that as a basic principle, but riddle me this, if you would ...

If there are 300 applicants for a course which has 150 places, and they all have the specified requirements for the course, how do you decide who gets in?

What am I missing? How is this a riddle?

You look at the grades of each prospective candidate and either interview them or subject them to an aptitude test (something akin to the LNAT, perhaps) based, to discriminate between their respective personal capabilities.

Just like the UK system that presently exists, or similar admission methods worldwide....

Taco Chips

Fight_Night wrote: »

Fairly sure Finland is ranked higher than the Netherlands and NZ?

Anyway my take is that the points system is too flawed. I believe that each course should only have requirements relevant to the course. Now you can whinge and say "Ah but sure it won't change any time soon so stop complaining". Well not with that attitude it won't, but if you get enough people pressuring their local TDs we could begin to see a debate arise amongst ministers and finally get some change.

I am just after coming through the points system. I had to repeat three times to get my course and I don't think that it is too flawed. There are problems, for sure. But I think in essence it is a very fair system. Academic students can excel, but so too can maybe not so academic students who instead resolve to work their arses off. If you study hard enough you can achieve with the Leaving Cert. Whats not fair about that?

Even if you have a student who mightn't be good at maths, or languages the relatively large amount of subjects studied means they can make up for their disadvantage elsewhere.

The only people who complain about being cheated by the points system are ones who could have reached their aims with some harder, or more efficient study. They're just pissed off that they didn't reach their goal so they blame the system. Anyone can succeed with the LC with the right attitude and work ethic.

later12

Taco Chips wrote: »

I am just after coming through the points system. I had to repeat three times to get my course and I don't think that it is too flawed. There are problems, for sure. But I think in essence it is a very fair system. Academic students can excel, but so too can maybe not so academic students

How is that something to celebrate

If you study hard enough you can achieve with the Leaving Cert. Whats not fair about that?

Er.. maybe that not every student can afford to hang on like some slouch who stays at home and repeats the leaving certificate 3 times without any penalty, for example?

Taco Chips

later12 wrote: »

How is that something to celebrate

Because there are enough subjects to cater for all students. Those who are maths orientated (physics, applied maths), artistic (art, DCG), technical (construction, engineering, technology), creative (languages etc..)

You don't have to be academic to get an A1 in certain subjects, if you are talented and interested you are rewarded too. What isn't clear? Should I explain again?

Er.. maybe that not every student can afford to hang on like some slouch who stays at home and repeats the leaving certificate 3 times without any penalty, for example?

You don't know anything about me and the amount of work that I did over the last few years. I certainly didn't "hang on like some slouch". If you think the LC year is a doss year then you don't know much about the pressures on students these days and it's probably not worth continuing to debate with you.

Without any penalty? You want to punish kids for persevering and working hard to reach their goals? Please. Perhaps you should go back and redo your LC, it might open your eyes.

randylonghorn

later12 wrote: »

What am I missing? How is this a riddle?

You look at the grades of each prospective candidate and either interview them or subject them to an aptitude test (something akin to the LNAT, perhaps) based, to discriminate between their respective personal capabilities.

Just like the UK system that presently exists, or similar admission methods worldwide....

Which is basically the direction that Geoghegan is going in, as per the other thread, and I've already said on that thread that I would be supportive in principle, even if I could see some issues to be ironed out.

Fight_Night wrote: »

I believe that each course should only have requirements relevant to the course.

What I took from Fight_Night's comment though (and I accept that I may be misunderstanding him) is that admission to courses should be based *only* on meeting certain pre-specified requirements for the course.

And such systems do exist, and do work, but only where supply of places or potential places on courses is greater than demand. Hell, we were probably close enough to that situation in Ireland 30 / 40 years ago, at least for the majority of courses; for some few even then demand outstripped supply.

My point is that where demand is greater than supply, there has to be *some* system to rank candidates, whether it's the points system or the type of systems you're espousing.

And for the record, I'm not really a fanboi of the points system; I can see its merits, certainly, in terms of efficiency, speed and transparency, but it has many disadvantages as well.

Namlub

later12 wrote: »

How is that something to celebrate

Well it's not if you take not-so-academic students to mean those who don't do a tap of work all year and scrape the points for their seventh or eighth choice, but there are certain people for whom even passing the LC is an achievement because of certain circumstances...

Wompa1

The year I applied for an IT course it was dropped to AQA in the second round offers because they could only get 11 people for the course. The same course is now 415. The course is also still behind the times. Irish colleges are pure muck.

later12

Taco Chips wrote: »

Because there are enough subjects to cater for all students. Those who are maths orientated (physics, applied maths), artistic (art, DCG), technical (construction, engineering, technology), creative (languages etc..)

Nonsense; not all schools offer applied mathematics & physics; even at that the student would have to do well in three other non mathematical courses to gain a place in a high points course. It just doesn't make sense. One could say the same for English, for example; I'm not specifically talking about Mathematics.

Without any penalty? You want to punish kids for persevering and working hard to reach their goals? Please. Perhaps you should go back and redo your LC, it might open your eyes.

Actually I went through a system where repeat examinations were taken into account by a faculty when assessing admissions applications. If there was a genuine reason as to why the student needed to repeat, fine. But repeating three times, for example, as a matter of perseverence, would be looked on less favourably. That's a method I would advocate, yes.

I think that the high amount of repeat students is only indicative of an already unfair system of admissions, but that these repeat students aggravate the flawed system. They do this by distorting the points requirement, as they have had one extra year to get the points requirement, an option which is not open to all students.

Zab

later12 wrote: »

I think that the high amount of repeat students is only indicative of an already unfair system of admissions, but that these repeat students aggravate the flawed system. They do this by distorting the points requirement, as they have had one extra year to get the points requirement, an option which is not open to all students.

You basically want us to dump the leaving cert and get something more like the SATs.

later12

Zab wrote: »

You basically want us to dump the leaving cert and get something more like the SATs.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I don't have a problem with the degree to which the individual subject examinations make known a candidate's talent for each respective discipline. I think students who receive HA1s in Mathematics, or English, and so on, are genuinely talented individuals.

My issue is not necessarily with the examinations, but with how the examinations are valued on aggregate scores by the Universities.

IvyTheTerrible

Red21 wrote: »

Yeah, what would the french know about education with their no pressure approach, they should come over here and we'd show them a thing or two. When educating young people the best method is pile um all in together and make the whole thing into one big terribly important competition thats the key to success. If you make the competition so important, a life and death situation, you'll sqeeze maximum results out of students even those who are least suited to the system will be forced to pick something up.
Leaving cert points = Happiness in later life, so work hard folks.

TBH it's only no pressure at the Bac (Leaving cert) stage. There is HUGE pressure at the end of year college exams. Same pressure as in Ireland, just deferred.

Zab

later12 wrote: »

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I don't have a problem with the degree to which the individual subject examinations make known a candidate's talent for each respective discipline. I think students who receive HA1s in Mathematics, or English, and so on, are genuinely talented individuals.

My issue is not necessarily with the examinations, but with how the examinations are valued on aggregate scores by the Universities.

To me that would be best served by each course having its own multipliers for all of the subjects, so that they get students geared towards different areas. At the moment this seems to mainly be done via course requirements or per-college multipliers.

FWIW the SATs do measure reasoning ability in different areas and they are less based on raw study, which seemed to be what you wanted with your repeat comment (i.e. a measure of the student's basic abilities rather than now much they've managed to learn). That said, I wasn't aware we had a issue with too many people repeating the leaving.

later12

Zab wrote: »

FWIW the SATs do measure reasoning ability in different areas and they are less based on raw study, which seemed to be what you wanted with your repeat comment (i.e. a measure of the student's basic abilities rather than now much they've managed to learn). That said, I wasn't aware we had a issue with too many people repeating the leaving.

We don't have that problem across the spectrum, but it is an issue in high point professional courses like veterinary, medicine and dentistry. It's not a massive issue for the entire crop of students, but it does distort the points for some students.

I don't think we need to bring in SATs to rid ourselves of that issue though. I think it's just something that admitting faculties ought to be able to take into account.

micosoft

To paraphrase - the points system is the worst way to select students..... except every other system.

No system is perfect. Just that all the proposals that you guys have given would all be more unfair/more anomolies/scams than the current points system.

One of the few uncorruptable systems in the Country has been the points system - can you imagine how unfair it would be if contineous assessment was allowed. You always know a system is fair and not corrupt in Ireland because everybody complains it's unfair. In the Irish context when people say they want fairness they mean they want to be able to influence the system so it is tilted towards them or their progeny, whether it's planning or medical cards. And Uni too if they had a chance.

I'll give an example how "interviews panels" etc can unbalance - Katie Taylors Brother just became the youngest math professor in Trinity Colleges history. He also came from the White City in Bray. Do ya think a Trinity admissions board full of good ol boys would have given him the nod over say, a trinners grads son or daughter. Perhaps but the Leaving does not care where you are from - just what you personally achieved on the day. Which in a small country like Ireland where everyone knows each other is a fantastic system to have.

Aptitude should be checked with Career Guidence councillors who can suggest but not dictate the persons choices. Just because you are bad with people does not mean for example, medicine should be closed to you (Forensic Pathologist anyone).

And finally I support the broad leaving cert as compared to the narrow UK system where you must make choices very early on.

Again - the points system. A terrible system but far better then all the alternatives.

Canard

I don't get it. People complain about the lack of subject weighting, then those same people complain about the A-Levels making students specialise too early.
Personally I just got accepted to do languages in UCD. I have an aptitude for them, yes, but I only did English/Irish/French. I got high grades in them, but should someone who gets mediocre grades in them along with German and Spanish get in ahead of me if subjects are weighted? With points we get to experience a wide range of subjects and suffer no consequences for it. I wouldn't be opposed to interviews either, but I don't really think it's that big a deal.

When I stayed in Paris the people I stayed with told me that they weight subjects though, so this whole thing of people saying that anyone can do anything is sort of confusing me, but I never looked into it.

I agree that the maths bonus points are unfair though. It's essentially weighting maths in every course. :rolleyes:

krudler

PieForPi wrote: »

So then they study harder to ensure they get the result they wanted. Leaving cert subjects aren't rocket science, there is a curriculum and those who do the most work get the most points generally.



That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

the LC as a whole is a memory exam, look at how languages are taught, Irish is basically remember certain phrases to blunder your way through set questions, you dont need to actually speak the language, just certain parts of it. once the exam is done you've barely any need for it. how many of us "learnt" Irish for over a decade in school and now can't string a sentence together.

Canard

krudler wrote: »

the LC as a whole is a memory exam, look at how languages are taught, Irish is basically remember certain phrases to blunder your way through set questions, you dont need to actually speak the language, just certain parts of it. once the exam is done you've barely any need for it. how many of us "learnt" Irish for over a decade in school and now can't string a sentence together.

That varies. I rote-learned it for JC but learned it properly for the LC. Other languages are taught properly though...and there are no set questions in any of the others. Hell, the German exam has a grammar section and in the French oral there are no pre-learned things besides an optional document. Languages are definitely subjects you can't rote learn, though if you were to want to do well in Irish you'd need to do more than just rote learn it.

Fuinseog

ford fiesta wrote: »

just a quick rant...why is this country and its media obsessed with the junior and leaving cert and only photograph students on the front page of the times/independent/examiner etc who get 9 A1's or near and not those students that are happy with, say, 290 points.

then the cao offers are out today and just watching the 6pm rte news, the focus is on high pointed courses (trinity etc)and shows a student getting his cao offer of science in trinity, which is fairly high points. again, why dont they show the student getting his sligo I.T. business course (and again is happy with it).

is there any relevance on the average leaving cert and low third level pointed courses anymore?

9 As is usually a sign of hard worker. I teach teenagers and many are too lazy to scratch themselves and their parents are quite vocal about their off spring being stressed out.

seven_eleven

I personally feel the leaving cert f*cked me and a lot of other people over.
I hated every moment of school, I had no interest in the stupid ****ty subjects like ag-science and french, which I was forced to do. I was absolutely terrible at maths and ended up doing foundation. I went through a period of heavy depression and had difficulty with other students.
I cleaned my act up a little bit before my LC but I was still struggling.

I got 235 points, mostly pass subjects with A's, and C's. The fact I did foundation maths immediately screwed me over, little or no courses in the country would accept me. And with those points, there wasnt many courses for me anyway. And besides, at that age I had no idea what I wanted to do. And it actually wasnt until last year that I decided what I really wanted as a life choice.

So Ive been stuck pissing around in a fetac course, which I decided wasnt the right choice for me. And now Im trying to get into another fetac course in my area of extreme interest, but that doesnt guarantee me a place in follow on college/uni courses. In all likelyhood I will have to wait until Im 24 to apply as a mature student, if Im lucky.

The thing I hated about the leaving cert is that I genuinly think Im a fairly intelligent guy, Im a very hard and determined worker in the area im interested in, and not much else. Not bloody pointless geography essays and complicated math problems which nearly noboy understands, they only do it because its drilled into them.

Ive know a guy received over 500 points, and he isnt even that intelligent. He couldnt even locate Syria on the map and is just ignorant to everything aside from the **** spooned into him in secondary school.

I guess in hindsight, Im jealous. Very jealous of all the people who get their lifelong dreams on a whim while those who dont are left to rot away for years. Myself and a lot of people are in the same position right now. It makes me sick to the teeth.

I know a lot of you are going to brush me off as a fool, an ignoramus etc. Thats okay, but many people dont understand what its like to be let down by the system which made us all feel doomed since we started the leaving cert cycle. Probably the kind of people who thought gettting 400 points was a horrible thing, and were ungrateful of their achievements. (I saw some comments like that in the LC forum)

Sorry for my rant, but I just am a bit annoyed at the leaving cert system and need to get this off my chest. Sitting at home feeling so unsure about my future is getting to me

Red21

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

TBH it's only no pressure at the Bac (Leaving cert) stage. There is HUGE pressure at the end of year college exams. Same pressure as in Ireland, just deferred.

True, but at that stage a person has made an informed decission as an adult to go to third level and study X, when you go to secondary college you're still a teenager, you've very little choice in the matter, what should or shouldn't be taught and how it is taught is one thing but there is no reason why educating teenagers should be made into a competition.

Red21

Fuinseog wrote: »

9 As is usually a sign of hard worker. I teach teenagers and many are too lazy to scratch themselves and their parents are quite vocal about their off spring being stressed out.

Yes it is a sign of hard worker, how do you know those you're trying to teach are lazy do you watch them in all aspects of their lives?

this is one depressing thread

Da Shins Kelly

americano787 wrote: »

In the USA, Our Education system is vastly superior to what you teach in Ireland. This is a fact.

Maybe, if you can afford it, which most people can't.

kowloon

I think doing away with 'core subjects' would be a step in the right direction. Let people play to their strengths, if they want to do science let them pick all technical subjects, if they want to do languages let them do languages.

The leaving cert is a glorified entrance exam so the whole 'broad education' thesis doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

It would eliminate the need to cater for people's weak subjects and raise the levels of competency across the board. I believe optional subjects only need two levels?

Padding out the points for maths makes no sense for students applying for subjects that don't require it and constitutes an unfair advantage for some, the weighting should be applied by course.