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Fines for hanging of laundry in the balcony

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  • 21-08-2012 11:20am
    #1
    AndyG7
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭


    Hi,

    Is it legal for the board to change house rules and set fines for hanging of laundry in the balcony?


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    #2
    silja
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭silja


    Was there an AGM where this was voted on?


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    #3
    Paulw
    Registered Users Posts: 13,381 ✭✭✭✭Paulw


    Fines, no. Penalties, yes.

    I'm sure such issues were discussed at your last management company AGM, and the information would have been available there.

    In many cases, depending on the contracts, etc, the development rules can be changed and penalties can be introduced.


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    #4
    AndyG7
    Registered Users Posts: 2 ✭AndyG7


    Not voted yet, only discussed. I just find it odd that an institution like a private management company can so easily set fines (financial penalties) for breaching such ridiculous house rules like hanging of laundry in the balcony!?


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    #5
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,322 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    Of drying of laundry on the balcony is precluded under the lease, I'm not sure a penalty is appropriate. Much more effective to hire a cherry picker to remove it and bill the leaseholder. A penalty could be construed as encouragement.


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    #6
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    I think many complexes have that rule. Imagine the sight if everyone was to hang out their washing on their balconies - not my personal choice of a complex to live in.
    If the apartments are rented out, they must provide a dryer washer/dryer when there is no outside provision for drying clothes.


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    #7
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,322 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    If the drying of laundry on the balcony is precluded under the lease, I'm not sure a penalty is appropriate. Much more effective to hire a cherry picker to remove it and bill the leaseholder. A penalty could be construed as encouragement.


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    #8
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Marcusm wrote: »
    If the drying of laundry on the balcony is precluded under the lease, I'm not sure a penalty is appropriate. Much more effective to hire a cherry picker to remove it and bill the leaseholder. A penalty could be construed as encouragement.

    I would totally disagree. A penalty can be imposed if there is evidence such as a photo. A cherry picker is not something that can be organised instantly whereas clothes can be moved inside in seconds.

    OP are you sure the ban on drying clothes on balconies isn't already in the development rules or leases of the apartments but just not policed yet? It would be pretty standard in developments with balconies.


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    #9
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,322 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    athtrasna wrote: »
    I would totally disagree. A penalty can be imposed if there is evidence such as a photo. A cherry picker is not something that can be organised instantly whereas clothes can be moved inside in seconds.

    OP are you sure the ban on drying clothes on balconies isn't already in the development rules or leases of the apartments but just not policed yet? It would be pretty standard in developments with balconies.

    Unless the lease provides for a financial penalty it's unlikely to be enforceable at law. In practice, if the threat is of an unenforceable penalty, the behaviour is unlikely to be abated. The freeholder/management company (likely the same legal entity) will, however, be entitled to recover its costs in enforcing the terms of the lease. Additionally, if the clothes are retained pending payment, payment is likely to be forthcoming.

    I live in 2 apartment developments and I agree that a cherry picker is not an ongoing solution. However, a blitzkrieg approach to remove the offending items (including perhaps bicycles on balconies) will give a much higher level of compliance for a period of time.

    Bleating notes reminding people of their obligations together with meaningless demands are unlikely to suffice if there's a real problem.

    One o f the issues with outside clotheslines is they're like rats - they spread very quickly!!!!


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    #10
    TheTurk1972
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭TheTurk1972


    They can scream and threaten all they like, but they have no power in law to charge you anything. They will write letters threatening you with all sorts, but there is nothing they can do.
    These people rely on you believing their sh!te about what they can do to you.
    Taking money off you for hanging out washing on your balcony is not an option for them. Threatening you is the only option open to them, but ultimately its an empty threat no matter what they say.
    Test them on it. Ask them to take you to court. Bet they wont.

    It is an ugly sight though.


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    #11
    omega666
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭omega666


    TheTurk1972 wrote: »
    They can scream and threaten all they like, but they have no power in law to charge you anything. They will write letters threatening you with all sorts, but there is nothing they can do.
    These people rely on you believing their sh!te about what they can do to you.
    Taking money off you for hanging out washing on your balcony is not an option for them. Threatening you is the only option open to them, but ultimately its an empty threat no matter what they say.
    Test them on it. Ask them to take you to court. Bet they wont.

    It is an ugly sight though.




    This is what i was thinking, how would a management company force anybody to pay a fine?


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    #12
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    omega666 wrote: »
    This is what i was thinking, how would a management company force anybody to pay a fine?

    It's no different to trying to collect management fees.


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    #13
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    TheTurk1972 wrote: »
    They can scream and threaten all they like, but they have no power in law to charge you anything. They will write letters threatening you with all sorts, but there is nothing they can do.
    These people rely on you believing their sh!te about what they can do to you.
    Taking money off you for hanging out washing on your balcony is not an option for them. Threatening you is the only option open to them, but ultimately its an empty threat no matter what they say.
    Test them on it. Ask them to take you to court. Bet they wont.

    It is an ugly sight though.

    Not true actually. If the ban is part of a covenant in the deeds/lease signed at purchase the ultimate sanction CAN be forfeiture of the property. Now that's realistically never gonna happen for washing but breaking lease clauses can go that far.

    More realistically, a financial penalty can be added to the account of the offending unit and would need to be discharged before the MC would release the paperwork for sale of the unit. Most deeds/leases in managed developments have clauses that allow for bringing in for rules and penalties where it is in the best interest of the development. In some cases the no washing on balconies thing is specifically mentioned in the planning permission for the development so the MC would have to be seen to enforce it


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    #14
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    TheTurk1972 wrote: »
    They can scream and threaten all they like, but they have no power in law to charge you anything. They will write letters threatening you with all sorts, but there is nothing they can do.
    These people rely on you believing their sh!te about what they can do to you.
    Taking money off you for hanging out washing on your balcony is not an option for them. Threatening you is the only option open to them, but ultimately its an empty threat no matter what they say.
    Test them on it. Ask them to take you to court. Bet they wont.

    It is an ugly sight though.

    Last apartment complex I lived in the management company retained ownership of all common areas including balconies.

    As owners of the balconies the management company could prevent access to those balconies through injunction if owners/tenants did not comply with the rules.


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    #15
    omega666
    Registered Users Posts: 595 ✭✭✭omega666


    athtrasna wrote: »
    Not true actually. If the ban is part of a covenant in the deeds/lease signed at purchase the ultimate sanction CAN be forfeiture of the property. Now that's realistically never gonna happen for washing but breaking lease clauses can go that far.

    More realistically, a financial penalty can be added to the account of the offending unit and would need to be discharged before the MC would release the paperwork for sale of the unit. Most deeds/leases in managed developments have clauses that allow for bringing in for rules and penalties where it is in the best interest of the development. In some cases the no washing on balconies thing is specifically mentioned in the planning permission for the development so the MC would have to be seen to enforce it




    As someone already said Unless the lease details a financial penalty it's unlikely to be enforceable by law. Also a renter isn't going to be too worried about all this. They can be sent all the legal treats in the world but the chances of the Management company taking someone to court over this are fairly slim.


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    #16
    RichardFrench
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭RichardFrench


    A notice, unless consented to, is contractually bound; If you didn't agree to such a charge in your contract, the law won't enforce it.
    As always, acquiescence of tactic consent holds true.


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    #17
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    RichardFrench wrote: »
    A notice, unless consented to, is contractually bound; If you didn't agree to such a charge in your contract, the law won't enforce it.
    As always, acquiescence of tactic consent holds true.

    If you don't agree to such a charge you should not sign the contract.

    If you don't agree to such a change, then possibly the law won't enforce it; however, if the majority of owners of the apartments in the complex voted to the change, is not everyone liable to accept the change?


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    #18
    RichardFrench
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭RichardFrench


    odds_on wrote: »
    If you don't agree to such a charge you should not sign the contract.

    If you don't agree to such a change, then possibly the law won't enforce it; however, if the majority of owners of the apartments in the complex voted to the change, is not everyone liable to accept the change?

    That's my point. If you don't agree to the contract, don't sign it.
    Contracts are fluid and dynamic by their very nature but alteration and changes are noticed (the legalese definition, not English) to all interested parties. Ignoring a notice means you agree to it's terms.


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    #19
    RATM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭RATM


    OP do what I did. Go down to a DIY shop like Homebase and pick up a big roll of wicker fencing the same height as your balcony railings. Also get cable ties and then tie it onto the railings of the balcony. Now no-one will be truly be able to tell what is on your balcony without getting really up close to it and squinting their eye to peer in.

    I dry clothes on the balcony during the summer (I don't have a dryer despite renting the place). The neighbours can't really tell from a distance what I have on the balcony (I've looked at it myself too and the wicker fencing blocks most things out). Actaully a few of my neighbours have taken to doing the same thing lately so the idea has caught on and now that a good few of us are doing it then it makes it less likely the mgmt co will try to tackle a group of people compared to tackling just one person. The fact that you can't really see clothes from any distance beyond a few meters helps alot, out of sight, out of mind.

    The main reason the rule is there is they want to avoid complexes looking like council flats where everyone hangs clothes and sheets from their balconies. So if you find a solution where it can't really be seen that you're doing it then I suspect you'll be left along.


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    #20
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    MadsL wrote: »
    Last apartment complex I lived in the management company retained ownership of all common areas including balconies.

    This is what would normally be the case. The balcony is yours to use but is actually owned by the management company. You have to obey their rules regarding its use. Check the details of your contract/apt manual


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    #21
    number66
    Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭number66


    odds_on wrote: »
    I think many complexes have that rule. Imagine the sight if everyone was to hang out their washing on their balconies - not my personal choice of a complex to live in.
    If the apartments are rented out, they must provide a dryer washer/dryer when there is no outside provision for drying clothes.

    Unfortunately there is no guarantee that said dryer is fit for purpose, The apt I live in has a washer/drier, but there is no duct work for dryer and it is totally useless at drying. My lease states that no laundry on balcony, luckily I have a room that is not used and i hang my laundry there to dry.

    Normal crap, Rules that are totally unworkable and wasteful just so place can look 'nice'. If you have this situation I'd start working on getting your management company to provide washer/driers that trap and condense steam.


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    #22
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,699 ✭✭✭jd


    number66 wrote: »
    If you have this situation I'd start working on getting your management company to provide washer/driers that trap and condense steam.

    I presume you mean your landlord?


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    #23
    odds_on
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭odds_on


    number66 wrote: »
    Unfortunately there is no guarantee that said dryer is fit for purpose, The apt I live in has a washer/drier, but there is no duct work for dryer and it is totally useless at drying. My lease states that no laundry on balcony, luckily I have a room that is not used and i hang my laundry there to dry.

    Normal crap, Rules that are totally unworkable and wasteful just so place can look 'nice'. If you have this situation I'd start working on getting your management company to provide washer/driers that trap and condense steam.
    So, you're a tenant and when you don't like the view of washing being dried on balconies, you can move out. However, owners who live in their apartments do not want their complexes looking like the back end of old council flats, not to mention the possibility that such breach of Management company regulations may also decrease the value of their property.

    So many tenants just do not respect the property they are renting - just check the number of PRTB claims where properties have been damaged beyond normal wear and tear.


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    #24
    TheTurk1972
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭TheTurk1972


    Oh i forgot. People can also post on the interweb telling you about how you can be forced to pay any charges imposed for hanging your washing out.

    But just ask them to show you any proof that anyone has been punished by the law for not paying a "fine" for putting their washing on the balcony.

    They wont be able to produce it.

    Then let the post some more about fictional things they can do.


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    #25
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    TheTurk1972 wrote: »
    Oh i forgot. People can also post on the interweb telling you about how you can be forced to pay any charges imposed for hanging your washing out.

    But just ask them to show you any proof that anyone has been punished by the law for not paying a "fine" for putting their washing on the balcony.

    They wont be able to produce it.

    Then let the post some more about fictional things they can do.

    The people cant be forced to pay the fines but they will reside on the property so if and when it's ever sold a solicitor wont allow it to be bought until all debts are paid.


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    #26
    TheTurk1972
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭TheTurk1972


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    The people cant be forced to pay the fines but they will reside on the property so if and when it's ever sold a solicitor wont allow it to be bought until all debts are paid.


    Not true either. Trust me, I know. I've been on various committees over the years. And its the fear that the they can make you pay is all that they have. If you have no fear of it, then they have nothing, because they cant enforce it.

    A solicitor would make short work of any board who tried to hold up a sale because of an outstanding "fine" for hanging washing on a balcony. I've seen them crumble for other similar efforts.


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    #27
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    TheTurk1972 wrote: »
    Not true either. Trust me, I know. I've been on various committees over the years. And its the fear that the they can make you pay is all that they have. If you have no fear of it, then they have nothing, because they cant enforce it.

    A solicitor would make short work of any board who tried to hold up a sale because of an outstanding "fine" for hanging washing on a balcony. I've seen them crumble for other similar efforts.

    Again it depends on whats in the apartment owners handbook

    "Fine" is probably the wrong word too. Maybe extra charges on the annual fee or something.


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    #28
    TheTurk1972
    Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭TheTurk1972


    cookie1977 wrote: »
    Again it depends on whats in the apartment owners handbook

    "Fine" is probably the wrong word too. Maybe extra charges on the annual fee or something.


    Really, they cant enforce a "fine"/charge/anything for hanging washing on a balcony. If its ever happened the we can be shown a case where it has happened though. Otherwise everyone in the thread can beat around the bush forever. There is no such case.

    and yes, fine is wrong. Thats why whenever I said fine, i put it in quotes.


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    #29
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    TheTurk1972 wrote: »
    Really, they cant enforce a "fine"/charge/anything for hanging washing on a balcony. If its ever happened the we can be shown a case where it has happened though. Otherwise everyone in the thread can beat around the bush forever. There is no such case.

    and yes, fine is wrong. Thats why whenever I said fine, i put it in quotes.

    If the balcony is common area then the owner has to abid by the rules as it's not theirs


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    #30
    Yawns
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭Yawns


    Marcusm wrote: »
    Much more effective to hire a cherry picker to remove it and bill the leaseholder.

    This. What are you smoking and can you share it please? You want to steal someone's clothes? You think a cherry picker to enable someone to take someone's items without permission is the solution. If it were legal to do so, they wouldn't be going about clamping cars but instead towing them away. Same principal applies. How it's taken this long to be pointed out tho...


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    #31
    cookie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭cookie1977


    They (managemenet company) could say something like "use of balcony for drying/hanging/storing clothes 200euro per apt" and levy it as part of the apartment maintenance charges and if it's not paid it would be down as unpaid maintenance charges.

    It would be just another charge like having a car park space would be a maintenance charge on those people that own one


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