Fines for hanging of laundry in the balcony

Marcusm

athtrasna wrote: »

Not true actually. If the ban is part of a covenant in the deeds/lease signed at purchase the ultimate sanction CAN be forfeiture of the property. Now that's realistically never gonna happen for washing but breaking lease clauses can go that far.

More realistically, a financial penalty can be added to the account of the offending unit and would need to be discharged before the MC would release the paperwork for sale of the unit. Most deeds/leases in managed developments have clauses that allow for bringing in for rules and penalties where it is in the best interest of the development. In some cases the no washing on balconies thing is specifically mentioned in the planning permission for the development so the MC would have to be seen to enforce it

I agree that forfeiture is the ultimate sanction and that "house rules" as they're often termed can be introduced (although laundry on a balcony is often specified in the lease itself) but I am not familiar with any resi leases where financial penalties are provided for in the manner you describe. However, I have seen plenty of leases providing for lessees to bear the reasonable COSTS incurred by the freeholder in enforcing the lease covenants/house rules. These are different things and I find it hard to believe that a management company properly advised would withhold consent in the manner you describe (ie where the lease is silent on PENALTIES as opposed to COSTS) as that would leave the MC open to significant legal costs and claims for damages.

Marcusm

odds_on wrote: »

If you don't agree to such a charge you should not sign the contract.

If you don't agree to such a change, then possibly the law won't enforce it; however, if the majority of owners of the apartments in the complex voted to the change, is not everyone liable to accept the change?

The lease may facilitate a change in the rules or more restrictions on the use and enjoyment of the property but would not be capable of I,posing a pealty unless provided for or consented to in the initial lease. Think about it, coud you be financially bound by 2 independent parties without your agreement?

Solair

In Spain they provide screened areas of large balconies for drying, and in the US they provide fast, cheap, commercial-size dryers in the building.

Irish rental apartments typically provide you with a very cheap washer-dryer that is about as useful as trying to dry your clothes with a washing machine that has a hair-dryer attached to it!

My experience of them is they go around and around for hours and then produce your clothes as a hot, mass of wrinkles that smells like burnt rubber.

Did the designers of these places forget that people needed to actually wash and clothes?!

I would doubt many of the architects or developers have ever had to use an apartment-size developer-special washer-dryer. They probably all have their expensive Miele dryer at home.

It's one of the many reasons why apartments in Ireland aren't exactly attracting many buyers other than people who wanted to do buy-to-let property flipping.

Also things like lack of choice of broadband suppliers in some developments that tried to lock people into the property management company's own service.

No communal space for hosting satellite dishes. Surely they realised that people may want to use them. All they needed to do was run 2 coax cables from each apartment to the roof and provide some visually unobtrusive space to put your dish, or alternatively a hook up to cable or whatever you needed fed through that coax.

Most newer apartments also have no communal gardens / landscaping / play areas and many landlords rent spaces separately and even rent don't provide the designed-in storage units / bike racks that were provided in many buildings (as part of their planning applications).

Also, a lot of the management companies don't exactly do very much other than levy fees.

Marcusm

number66 wrote: »

Unfortunately there is no guarantee that said dryer is fit for purpose, The apt I live in has a washer/drier, but there is no duct work for dryer and it is totally useless at drying.

is it a condenser drier? If yes, you need to Empty the water tray!

Solair

Marcusm wrote: »

is it a condenser drier? If yes, you need to Empty the water tray!

They said a washer-dryer. They condense the water by running tap water thorough a condenser in the machine and pumping it away.

They are almost invariably utterly useless as dryers.

A proper condenser dryer actually works quite well i.e. one that isn't just a washing machine with a hairdryer in it.

The majority of them could dry maybe a pair of socks but, that's about it.

Marcusm

Yawns wrote: »

This. What are you smoking and can you share it please? You want to steal someone's clothes? You think a cherry picker to enable someone to take someone's items without permission is the solution. If it were legal to do so, they wouldn't be going about clamping cars but instead towing them away. Same principal applies. How it's taken this long to be pointed out tho...

Not smoking anything; it's occasionally happened in complexes to remove bicycles from balconies. The items are securely keptand returned to the owners. As a result, the MC can legitimately add a cost to the annual charge. To be honest, it's only of the few means to deal with issues like this if lessees are unwilling to abide by the leases. I'm not advocating it but equally I wouldn't send letters demanding money which is not due. In respect of cars, different issues can apply. Including the fact that towing cars is incredibly expensive and simply impractical in underground car parks.

Marcusm

cookie1977 wrote: »

They (managemenet company) could say something like "use of balcony for drying/hanging/storing clothes 200euro per apt" and levy it as part of the apartment maintenance charges and if it's not paid it would be down as unpaid maintenance charges.

It would be just another charge like having a car park space would be a maintenance charge on those people that own one

They can't unilaterally impose charges but more importantly, this would cause the problem to persist.

Solair

Would removing stuff from a balcony not possibly result in the Gardaí being called?

cookie1977

Marcusm wrote: »

They can't unilaterally impose charges but more importantly, this would cause the problem to persist.

No just charge those that take use of the service. Take pics as evidence. No unilateral charges

cookie1977

Solair wrote: »

Would removing stuff from a balcony not possibly result in the Gardaí being called?

Depends on who owns the balcony. Think of signs on railings saying "Bikes will be removed"

Marcusm

Solair wrote: »

They said a washer-dryer. They condense the water by running tap water thorough a condenser in the machine and pumping it away.

They are almost invariably utterly useless as dryers.

A proper condenser dryer actually works quite well i.e. one that isn't just a washing machine with a hairdryer in it.

I agree that some of them pump te water away but more of them condense the water into a tray at the bottom and it needs to be removed and poured down the sink - I have 2 of this latter kind.

Solair

Marcusm wrote: »

I agree that some of them pump te water away but more of them condense the water into a tray at the bottom and it needs to be removed and poured down the sink - I have 2 of this latter kind.

The ones with a tray are almost always a dedicated dryer. They're not a washer-dryer.

A condenser-dryer is a stand-alone dryer, which uses an air-to-air heat exchanger i.e. draws air from the room in to cool a condenser (and blows hot air back out to the room). The water either comes out in a tray at the bottom (cheap models), pumped into a drawer at the top (more expensive models) or is pumped straight down the drain (if plumbed in).

Washer-dryers use a different system. They are a washing machine, with a heater and a fan and a water-cooled condenser. Water from the mains is trickled through a condenser and the pump sucks it out as it drys. It goes down the same drain hose as the waste water from the wash cycle. There's no air cooled condenser.

They're very very poor dryers.

The only washer-dryers I've ever seen that work are EXTREMELY pricy Miele and Siemens/Bosch models which landlords would never splash out on!

Marcusm

Solair wrote: »

Would removing stuff from a balcony not possibly result in the Gardaí being called?

It might but as there is no "intent to permanently deprive" the owner of te property, the Gardai will (rightly) deem it a civil matter and walk away.

Marcusm

Solair wrote: »

The ones with a tray are almost always a dedicated dryer. They're not a washer-dryer.

I can only attest to having two ofthem currently as washer driers and one of te dedicated driers with such a tray!

Marcusm

cookie1977 wrote: »

No just charge those that take use of the service. Take pics as evidence. No unilateral charges

But the point is that the OP wants to stop them at all costs not just regulate and tax them; this is Prohibition!

cookie1977

Marcusm wrote: »

But the point is that the OP wants to stop them at all costs not just regulate and tax them; this is Prohibition!

The only way he/she can do that is get enough votes to vote it down at an AGM

Marcusm

cookie1977 wrote: »

The only way he/she can do that is get enough votes to vote it down at an AGM

I'd be shocked if the lease (and i do mean the lease rather than the house rules) did not already preclude it!!!

Solair

Marcusm wrote: »

I can only attest to having two ofthem currently as washer driers and one of te dedicated driers with such a tray!

Never seen a washer-dryer with an actual condenser that produced water in a tray, but, maybe there's some model out there. Used to work in an electrical shop in the summers in uni

MadsL

This



€35 in IKEA and folds away under the bed.

Or, keep fighting "the system" until it really dawns on you that MC rules are for everyone's benefit and that you should stop being a knob to your neighbours.

Marcusm

Solair wrote: »

Never seen a washer-dryer with an actual condenser that produced water in a tray, but, maybe there's some model out there. Used to work in an electrical shop in the summers in uni

Each of the two I currently have are different models and cost no more that £250 - they're in the UK, perhaps more common there.

Solair

MadsL wrote: »

This


€35 in IKEA and folds away under the bed.

Or, keep fighting "the system" until it really dawns on you that MC rules are for everyone's benefit and that you should stop being a knob to your neighbours.

Or just live in proper accommodation with actual facilities for normal living!

In my experience, the worst apartments I've ever lived in have been in Ireland and Britain. The standards are just too low and entirely about making developers as much money as possible.

From what I could see they're all designed as temporary, low quality, transitional accommodation suitable for young singletons.

It's like nobody actually thought about how someone is going to comfortably live in some of these spaces.

i.e. lack of drying space / space for a tumble dryer, lack of outdoor space, lack of storage, tiny bathrooms, extremely badly maintained common areas, poor security in many of them etc etc.

The contrast with apartments in developed parts of continental Europe and North America is absolutely stark.

Grolschevik

MadsL wrote: »

This



€35 in IKEA and folds away under the bed.

Or, keep fighting "the system" until it really dawns on you that MC rules are for everyone's benefit and that you should stop being a knob to your neighbours.

And there are plenty of threads in here about condensation and mould being caused by drying clothes inside on racks. One person here even said that he considered indoor drying to be grounds for retaining a deposit.

There is a real issue here for apartments: drying on clothes horses is inadvisable, drying on balconies is against the rules, and drying in a machine may be impossible (for renters), either because of the type of machine or because there is no dryer.

Hell, my complex even has a rule that drying washing should not be visible from outside through the windows, ruling out the "patio door open and clothes horse just inside" avenue!

Solair

Grolschevik wrote: »

MadsL wrote: »

This

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€35 in IKEA and folds away under the bed.

Or, keep fighting "the system" until it really dawns on you that MC rules are for everyone's benefit and that you should stop being a knob to your neighbours.

And there are plenty of threads in here about condensation and mould being caused by drying clothes inside on racks. One person here even said that he considered indoor drying to be grounds for retaining a deposit.

There is a real issue here for apartments: drying on clothes horses is inadvisable, drying on balconies is against the rules, and drying in a machine may be impossible (for renters), either because of the type of machine or because there is no dryer.

Hell, my complex even has a rule that drying washing should not be visible from outside through the windows, ruling out the "patio door open and clothes horse just inside" avenue!

not to mention that compared to continental Europe and even the UK, there are very very few launderettes left in Ireland. They're often very far away or hard to find.

If apartment complexes are THAT ridiculous, they need to provide a bank of commercial style coin operated machines.

Yawns

Marcusm wrote: »

It might but as there is no "intent to permanently deprive" the owner of te property, the Gardai will (rightly) deem it a civil matter and walk away.

I really don't think they could walk away so lightly if you have removed an item belonging to someone from their exclusively used balcony. It's theft plain and simple and could be pursued as such. It's not a civil matter when you steal an item.

The reason I brought up the cars being towed example is not to compare and contrast the costs issue. It's to show you that if it was legal to hire a cherrypicker to take the clothes from a balcony and place them someone else, it would also be legal to remove a car from a spot and place it somewhere else. Currently the law does not allow for private individuals or companies to do so. So your solution of taking clothes from a balcony via a cherrypicker would never work currently.

who_me

MadsL wrote: »

Or, keep fighting "the system" until it really dawns on you that MC rules are for everyone's benefit and that you should stop being a knob to your neighbours.

Am I understanding you correctly?

Putting your clothes outside to dry (in the cheapest, most effective, most environmentally friendly way) is "being a knob to your neighbours".

But preventing your neighbours doing so because you want the outside of THEIR apartments to look pretty is what - just common sense?

Solair

What it comes down to is pure snobbery and the fact that they don't want to look like 'council flats' but, instead want to look like office blocks or something.

Unfortunately, people need to dry clothes, have bikes, have kids that make noise etc etc.

It's extremely bad for the environment and for your pocket to unnecessarily use tumble dryers for everything just because of pure snobbery and stupidity.

We put huge effort into trying to make buildings more efficient, then shoot ourselves in the foot again by forcing the residents to use grossly inefficient washer-dryers to dry their laundry.

Also, if they are drying on racks indoors or radiators, it results in condensation (especially in a climate like Ireland has). A load of laundry could contain anything up to a litre and a half of water. It has to go somewhere!

There's a big "Right to Dry" campaign in parts of the US!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11417677

http://www.laundrylist.org/en/programs/advocacy/76-the-right-to-dry-campaign

It reminds me of stories of how Americans used to drive around with their windows up nearly dying of heat exhaustion because they didn't want anyone to know they didn't have air conditioning in their car!!!

Ray Palmer

I always understood it to be a requirement of local council as part of planning permission. They can fine the management company afaik.
As for it being snobbery I think people ignore the actual asthetics of this. It looks terrible plain and simple.

Solair

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I always understood it to be a requirement of local council as part of planning permission. They can fine the management company afaik.
As for it being snobbery I think people ignore the actual asthetics of this. It looks terrible plain and simple.

Well, it beats having to sit on busses or in the office beside people who are wearing smelly 'sour' clothes that haven't been dried properly.

I regularly notice that in Dublin and London and not very often elsewhere.

Frankly, I think it's a bit OCD to over-focus on something like this.

Bad planning = no laundry drying spaces = clothes on balconies.

If you don't like the look of it, don't keep electing politicians who represent property developers' interests and nothing else.

Yawns

If councils want it as part of the planning permission for no clothes on balconies, then they could cop on and make sure that at least a room is provided in an area of the complex where commercial dryers are installed. They can be coin operated and then noone can argue about the no clothes on balcony rule as there is somewhere provided for them...

TheTurk1972

Yawns wrote: »

I really don't think they could walk away so lightly if you have removed an item belonging to someone from their exclusively used balcony. It's theft plain and simple and could be pursued as such. It's not a civil matter when you steal an item.

The reason I brought up the cars being towed example is not to compare and contrast the costs issue. It's to show you that if it was legal to hire a cherrypicker to take the clothes from a balcony and place them someone else, it would also be legal to remove a car from a spot and place it somewhere else. Currently the law does not allow for private individuals or companies to do so. So your solution of taking clothes from a balcony via a cherrypicker would never work currently.

I was on a board where we removed satellite dishes and items including bicycles and bamboo screens from balconies and stored them. We charged a fee for the storage.
It worked wonderfully until one person sent a solicitors letter to us.
To cut a long story short our solicitor and another solicitor we went to for a second opinion told us not to fight him. because we would lose.
We had to stop the practice.
This among other things is how I know that as unsightly as hanging washing on a balcony is, there is absolutely nothing the management can do to punish the OP.
I'm still open to seeing proof that someone actually got charged legally for this, or a ruling from a court of law. But I know I wont see it, because it doesnt exist.