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Leap card - refused boarding by bus driver

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    #32
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Credit card machines/systems go down plenty of the time. Are credit and Debit cards completely pointless?
    Yep and in the case they do go down the retailer can take your CC details and process the payment later. Person can also pay by cheque, cash etc. So there's many alternative forms of payment.
    It's also not really comparable in that if one shop's/bank's CC system goes down, you can go to another shop to use your CC, whereas Dublin Bus is a monopoly on the bus network so there's no alternative. If I need to get home from town, and the bus driver doesn't let me on because there's a fault with it's Leap scanner, then I'm stuck in town.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    The Onus is on them to provide an altenative, which they did.
    But that's missing the whole point of the Leap Card. The alternative that was offered is the method of payment that Leap is meant to replace. The Leap Card is an e-purse. No matter which way you twist it and turn it to justify not letting a person on if there's a Leap Card Scanner error, one of the main reasons for a leap card is so you don't have to carry around change for your bus/train/luas and it completely fails in that aspect if you do.


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    #33
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Raladic wrote: »
    From the leapcard terms and conditions which the OP read carefully before buying a leap card and using it:

    https://www.leapcard.ie/PageSetting/ContentViewer.aspx?Val=CG%2fCj953WkPB%2b7fwjkLFshsyP7wecX6fiV0VBn3Q632F20yhboVXGTVmv%2b2bImvcFvyDWv8wk%2bd4E5kAGPCvjpJvBUgOhvVEg%2fB6ZgVyLiI6nLqx13jMpsQIKgDUASmGM793kdSI9FJOtf2oYKBBrP3uRbgVAG0ZGo31awr2Vmg%3d
    I see your bet and raise you by SI 27 of 1995: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1995/en/si/0027.html


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    #34
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Posters - this isn't the Legal Discussion forum. If you are going to post links to dense blocks of legalese, please provide summaries to help laypeople understand it.

    OP - as I see it, Dublin Bus were under no obligation to transport you. It was perhaps poor customer service, but definitely nothing amiss.


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    #35
    Raladic
    Registered Users Posts: 68 ✭✭Raladic


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    I see your bet and raise you by SI 27 of 1995: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1995/en/si/0027.html
    I wouldn't really consider this particular term as unfair, technology can fail, and as the OP did point out, the bus driver offered alternatives that do sound reasonable enough, but I suppose if you'd want a strong case a court would have to decide - however I don't think the OP would really be willing to go that far for a 2 quid fare.


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    #36
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Raladic wrote: »
    I wouldn't really consider this particular term as unfair, technology can fail,
    And if it's Dublin Bus's technological device that fails, they have a responsibility to provide a reasonable alternative.
    and as the OP did point out, the bus driver offered alternatives that do sound reasonable enough,
    One alternative was not available to OP as he or she had no cash; the other involved paying a higher fare, which doesn't look "reasonable enough" to me.
    but I suppose if you'd want a strong case a court would have to decide - however I don't think the OP would really be willing to go that far for a 2 quid fare.
    And that is why so many businesses get away with things: the trouble and expense of vindicating one's rights as a consumer can be disproportionate to the loss suffered.

    When such a point is reached, it becomes a public policy issue: there is a need for system or mechanism to deal with such problems.


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    #37
    Rabies
    Registered Users Posts: 15,258 ✭✭✭✭Rabies


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Which means the Leap card is completely pointless if that's their attitude. If I have to carry around the money for every trip I take incase a machine doesn't work, then there's no point in having a leap card at all.

    The onus is on Dublin Bus if their scanner breaks

    Next time you're out driving, please put a bicycle in the booth. Some day the car might get a flat tyre. You'll need alternative transport home.

    It would have been nice if the driver let the OP on for free. Easiest thing to do and best customer service option.

    Do drivers get in trouble if they let too many people on for free if a system like Leap is down?


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    #38
    Zab
    Registered Users Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭Zab


    I assume that it actually is Dublin Bus policy to waive the fare when this happens? Certainly that's what happened to me in the past when the card machine is broken.

    I don't know that they should "definitely" give you compensation, but a whole load of companies would do something along the lines of sticking a fiver on your Leap card in these circumstances.


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    #39
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Credit card machines/systems go down plenty of the time. Are credit and Debit cards completely pointless?



    The Onus is on them to provide an altenative, which they did.
    So next are they going to put passengers off the buses if the cash machine or the card scanner fails to read anything except leap cards? They are providing an alternative in the leap card so it must then be ok to expect passengers with monthly/weekly/other prepaid tickets and those who pay cash to also possess a leap card in case they might need it?


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    #40
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    I put a big chunk of money on my Leap card when I've been paid, and then I'll travel off that for quite a while, because I don't carry much cash around. So if this happened to me, I simply wouldn't have had any money to buy a ticket. And correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't fares cheaper by Leap card? So OP would have had to pay more just for the privilege of using cash he may or may not have had?

    If a Laser machine goes down in a store, then you can use an alternate method or cash or go to an ATM or wait or use another store. That's a very different situation to using public transport, which is a much more time sensitive situation that's got much less room to be unreliable.

    I'm not sure that the OP is entitled to compensation, don't get me wrong, but swearword swearword swearword Dublin bloody Bus drivers....


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    #41
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,987 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    jill_valentine wrote: »

    If a Laser machine goes down in a store, then you can use an alternate method or cash or go to an ATM or wait or use another store. That's a very different situation to using public transport, which is a much more time sensitive situation that's got much less room to be unreliable.

    There will be a bus with a working machine along eventually, so that's changing store. The OP was offered to pay cash or use the working machine on the bus, while both of these cost more they could have still gotten the bus, if it was that time sensitive.

    Does anyone actually rely on public transport in Ireland for time sensitive things without contingency plans in place:eek:


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    #42
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,407 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Does anyone actually rely on public transport in Ireland for time sensitive things without contingency plans in place:eek:

    The couple of hundred thousand people who use various forms of public transport to get to work?


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    #43
    son.of.jimi
    Registered Users Posts: 351 ✭✭son.of.jimi


    Driver should have let you pass. Sounds like he was in a bad mood and just acting like a **** that day and you and your friend were just in the line of fire.

    Do you look for compensation when your not in signal and trying to call/text someone? Like you've either paid your bill or topped up and that service is temporarily unavailable, do you expect compensation for that?


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    #44
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    . Person can also pay by cheque, cash etc. So there's many alternative forms of payment.
    It's also not really comparable in that if one shop's/bank's CC system goes down, you can go to another shop to use your CC, whereas Dublin Bus is a monopoly on the bus network so there's no alternative. If I need to get home from town, and the bus driver doesn't let me on because there's a fault with it's Leap scanner, then I'm stuck in town..

    Whats the etc part of cash etc? Cheques are being increasingly less accepted and getting phased out.

    Taxi's are an alternative to getting the bus. Does the same thing but is more expensive, just like the next shop might be.

    #why are you stuck n town btw? can you not just go get money?
    Anita Blow wrote: »
    . But that's missing the whole point of the Leap Card. The alternative that was offered is the method of payment that Leap is meant to replace. .

    It's an electronic system. Electronic systems are prone to failure. Such is life. Cash is a perfect backup to electronic payment factilities for when failure occures. Which is why DB still offer it.


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    #45
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    Whats the etc part of cash etc? Cheques are being increasingly less accepted and getting phased out.
    My point was that there is still multiple back-ups if a CC System goes down, including cash, cheques and that the retailer also has a backup method of accepting CC methods by taking down the details and processing them later.
    If the leap card system goes down, you're only option is to pay in cash which negates the whole point of the leap card being an E-purse to replace the higher cash fares.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »

    Taxi's are an alternative to getting the bus. Does the same thing but is more expensive, just like the next shop might be.
    So that's Dublin Bus' business practice then? Their payment system for their €50 million e-purse goes down, through no fault of their customers, and yet it's their customers who now have to pay many multiples of a bus fare to get a taxi instead? So what happens when the leap card becomes used widespread and this happens. Will bus loads of people be denied boarding because they were expected to carry their leap card and the cash for the journey? Why would anyone use a Leap Card if that's meant to be the case, as it seems it's more hassle than just paying cash.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »

    #why are you stuck n town btw? can you not just go get money?
    Why does that matter? The bus I get comes once every 40-50 minutes. By the time the bus gets to my stop I can hardly run to the shop to get change without waiting another 50 minutes for the next bus. Carrying around change in the rare event that a Leap Scanner isn't working once again totally negates the point of a Leap Card.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    It's an electronic system. Electronic systems are prone to failure. Such is life.
    Yep and the onus of that failure is on Dublin Bus, not the customer. If a system fails, they should replace that bus with a working one and offer the extreme minority of people currently using Leap a free journey just like they currently do to every passenger if the ticket machine is broken.


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    #46
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    My point was that there is still multiple back-ups if a CC System goes down, including cash, cheques and that the retailer also has a backup method of accepting CC methods by taking down the details and processing them later.
    If the leap card system goes down, you're only option is to pay in cash which negates the whole point of the leap card being an E-purse to replace the higher cash fares..

    Any time I've come across a situation, either when I worked in retail or as a consumer, if the cc machines are down, no cc transations happen, full stop. No writing down loads of customers cc details on a bit of paper.
    Taxi's take CC's now. If the machine was down would you give the driver your card to copy all the details down and charge when he gets around to it?

    Anita Blow wrote: »
    So that's Dublin Bus' business practice then? Their payment system for their €50 million e-purse goes down, through no fault of their customers, and yet it's their customers who now have to pay many multiples of a bus fare to get a taxi instead? So what happens when the leap card becomes used widespread and this happens. Will bus loads of people be denied boarding because they were expected to carry their leap card and the cash for the journey? Why would anyone use a Leap Card if that's meant to be the case, as it seems it's more hassle than just paying cash..

    No, Dublin bus' practice is to offer an alternative means of payment.

    You brought up the option of going to another shop so I offered another means of transport.
    Anita Blow wrote: »

    . Carrying around change in the rare event that a Leap Scanner isn't working once again totally negates the point of a Leap Card..

    No it doesnt, it covers you in the unlikely event of a problem. Is it really that much of an issue to stick €2.50 in a pocket of your purse for an emergency?

    Theres lots of reasons you might need a couple of euro handy.

    Anita Blow wrote: »

    Yep and the onus of that failure is on Dublin Bus, not the customer. If a system fails, they should replace that bus with a working one and offer the extreme minority of people currently using Leap a free journey just like they currently do to every passenger if the ticket machine is broken.

    So put out the rest of the people by waiting on another bus to take over to appease the small number of a small number of leap card users that refuse to carry even a small amount of cash?


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    #47
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    ... So put out the rest of the people by waiting on another bus to take over to appease the small number of a small number of leap card users that refuse to carry even a small amount of cash?
    Why should they be obliged to carry cash when they have LEAP cards?

    The fault lies with Dublin Bus in not having their equipment in proper working order; the onus is on them to look after their passengers.

    It looks to me as if OP had an arguable case for staying on the bus: he or she tendered payment by one of the means that Dublin Bus tells us is accepted. That is possibly sufficient basis to claim that a contract had been made (and lest people get sidetracked with irrelevant analogies, I would point out that posted fares on scheduled bus services are not invitations to treat).


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    #48
    starviewadams
    Registered Users Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭starviewadams


    Did you put €5 on your Leap card online or did you top it up in a shop?

    If you put €5 on the card online then it won't show up on Dublin Bus system until the next day when the bus returns to the garage and the system is updated.You have to 'collect' the top up from a Luas/Dart TVM or a shop that sells Leap cards before you can use it on Dublin Bus,as the machines on Dublin Bus aren't connected to the internet so can't update automatically.


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    #49
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Del2005 wrote: »
    There will be a bus with a working machine along eventually, so that's changing store. The OP was offered to pay cash or use the working machine on the bus, while both of these cost more they could have still gotten the bus, if it was that time sensitive.

    I use a Leap card because I don't carry cash. I don't, I have a limited budget and using a Leap card one of the ways I manage it. Nothing to do with "refusing" to carry "even a small amount of cash". I put the cash on when I have it, so it will tide me over when I haven't.

    That's its function in the first place. By offering the Leap card in the first place, Dublin Bus is saying "Hey, you no longer have to worry about carrying cash!", so people who use it, don't. It's the fundamental premise of the service, and it's marketed almost entirely on that basis.

    In These Recessionary Times, yes. Lots of us are forced to rely on public transport to get us where we need to be in time, or some approximation thereof. By absolutely no coincidence, lots of us are late.


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    #50
    dearg lady
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭dearg lady


    I agree with the many posters who have suggested OP be waved on in this instance. However, he wasn't, this is poor form, a complaint has been made, and the company is dealing with it. The issue has been resolved as far as OP is concerned... looking for compensation is just ludicrous..what amount would you suggest for this hardship?


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    #51
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,987 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    ArmaniJeanss wrote: »
    The couple of hundred thousand people who use various forms of public transport to get to work?
    jill_valentine wrote: »
    In These Recessionary Times, yes. Lots of us are forced to rely on public transport to get us where we need to be in time, or some approximation thereof. By absolutely no coincidence, lots of us are late.

    No body uses the bus that's supposed to get to their destination at the time they need to be there unless they've an understanding boss/appointment. If you need to be at a place at a certain time you'll use an earlier bus, as there's no other way with Dublin bus.
    jill_valentine wrote: »
    I use a Leap card because I don't carry cash. I don't, I have a limited budget and using a Leap card one of the ways I manage it. Nothing to do with "refusing" to carry "even a small amount of cash". I put the cash on when I have it, so it will tide me over when I haven't.

    That's its function in the first place. By offering the Leap card in the first place, Dublin Bus is saying "Hey, you no longer have to worry about carrying cash!", so people who use it, don't. It's the fundamental premise of the service, and it's marketed almost entirely on that basis.

    On the Leap cards T&C's the bus driver was correct.
    13.3 If a Leap Card customer cannot travel due to any equipment, software or system for Leap Cards failing, the appropriate full fare will be charged by the relevant Transport Operator. Any such failure should be reported to Leap Card Customer Care who will investigate the failure.

    They offered you the full fair or cash option. You don't have to carry cash but will have to pay extra or wait for a functioning machine. Can't really see any issue here.


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    #52
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,707 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    About 4 or 5 times I've used the bus, the leap card reader isn't working and each time the bus driver has just waved me through.

    So I think this driver either didn't know of this policy (and thus the re-training) or was just in a bad mood and took it out on you.


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