Sub forum for Bus Enthusiasts

haulagebasher

I was just thinking that seeing as rail fans have now got a sub forum for their thing would it not be a good idea to allocate a similar subforum in C&T for But Nuts. there is currently no forum for the discussion of Irish buses and bus history and so time afo I e-mailed Kev Horgan of IrishBuses and he reckons to go for it. Got a similar response from the lad running dublinbusstuff. What say you

Losty Dublin

I'd love to see it.

Judgement Day

As a sub forum in Ranting & Raving perhaps?

haulagebasher

^^^. No not in ranting and raving - I am not referring to bus discuusion from the travelling public's POV such as "why was the No. 40" late or looking for timetables etc. What i am on about is a forum for the bus enthusiast communty. The enthusiast community is probably second only to rail buffing here and it is a very popular and growing hobby in Britain.I imagine it would take on a similar ethos to T&RS in that it would cover operations and fleet news, history of stock and routes and bus photography. Possibly discussion & trading of paraphenalia too.Some members of IRN and T&RS are heavily involved too so I'm sure support would come from there.
As per T&RS, a corresponding "Bus Porn" thread should be a sticky :pac:

steamengine

All jibes aside, :rolleyes: it sounds like a great idea - Train & Rail systems is rocking a year on in, and with the obvious zeal for buses that is readily apparent, I should imagine a dedicated bus sub-forum will take off similarly.

flyingsnail

If you really want it submit a request and see what happens

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=461

Judgement Day

bk and foggy_lad could moderate it.

corktina

i seriously doubt there are enough fans out there.....maybe a Heritage Transport forum taking in trains, car buses et al would be better

steamengine

Judgement Day wrote: »

bk and foggy_lad could moderate it.

I recommend 'Blakey' from 'On the Buses' ? :D

Conway635

corktina wrote: »

i seriously doubt there are enough fans out there.....maybe a Heritage Transport forum taking in trains, car buses et al would be better

For about 10 years I ran Garaiste, which was Ireland's first and largest bus enthusiast forum - by 2009 it had more than 1,000 members, of whom upwards of 300 were posting at least weekly, and was receiving between 3,000 and 5,000 unique visits a day (as opposed to page views).

I archived it in 2009 (leaving the content online but read-only - new new posts allowed) but even now that archive gets 300-400 unique visitors a day.

A lot more interest than you might imagine!

(if you are wondering why I froze it as a read-only archive, it had become a monster beyond all imagining, with moderation and admin duties ruling and ruining my free time, despite being shared between several people).

C635

ax586

There is one the Irish transport forum

Marcusm

Conway635 wrote: »

For about 10 years I ran Garaiste, which was Ireland's first and largest bus enthusiast forum - by 2009 it had more than 1,000 members, of whom upwards of 300 were posting at least weekly, and was receiving between 3,000 and 5,000 unique visits a day (as opposed to page views).

I archived it in 2009 (leaving the content online but read-only - new new posts allowed) but even now that archive gets 300-400 unique visitors a day.

A lot more interest than you might imagine!

(if you are wondering why I froze it as a read-only archive, it had become a monster beyond all imagining, with moderation and admin duties ruling and ruining my free time, despite being shared between several people).

C635

Scary....I understand the enthusiasm for trains (I even have a platform 5 from an earlier life) but buses are so transient in comparison...

patrickbrophy18

You could call the forum "Coach Spotting"!:D

dfx-

ax586 wrote: »

There is one the Irish transport forum

As a member of that and before that, Garáiste, there's more than enough demand. Only thing I'd say..it needs several mods to help foggy_lad out.:)

There's bus enthusiasts.
There's DB enthusiasts.
There's BÉ enthusiasts.
There's historic enthusiasts.

There's people who work for the company.
There's people who have family or friends who work for the company.

There's preservationists.
There's the photographers.

All very different people all looking for different things. As Conway635 hinted, just before Garaiste was archived, there were a lot of disagreements.

kieran4003

dfx- wrote: »

As a member of that and before that, Garáiste, there's more than enough demand. Only thing I'd say..it needs several mods to help foggy_lad out.:)

There's bus enthusiasts.
There's DB enthusiasts.
There's BÉ enthusiasts.
There's historic enthusiasts.

There's people who work for the company.
There's people who have family or friends who work for the company.

There's preservationists.
There's the photographers.

All very different people all looking for different things. As Conway635 hinted, just before Garaiste was archived, there were a lot of disagreements.

I am a member of IrishTransport and I belong to all three categories you have listed but it dosent make much difference what 'category' you are in. I think it is a fantastic forum. There is occasional disputes but in general it is a good place to learn about bus operations and know others interested in buses. The disputes usually relate to Bus Investment in Cork compared to Dublin; Operational efficences of the CIE companies. There is certain divisons in the forum, eg. Some people may only be Dublin Bus enthusiasts and only post in the Dublin Bus boards and the same applies with Bus Eireann.

bk

Marcusm wrote: »

Scary....I understand the enthusiasm for trains (I even have a platform 5 from an earlier life) but buses are so transient in comparison...

Well that would actually be a positive for the spotter types. Things have become quiet boring for the train spotters due to the high level of standardisation at Irish Rail and how unlikely we are to see any change for the next 20 years.

With buses, you can see all sorts of different types and varieties which is good for spotters.

BTW I have no interest in "spotting buses", My interest in buses and all public transport is how to get people from a to b in the most cost effective and efficient manner possible.

miller50841

The new Wright GT model first DBus that I know of to have side lights/reflectors like coaches.

Good idea for all those into transport to set that up as sick of seeing the same crap with people giving out about bus late timetable drivers whatever.

haulagebasher

OK, given the decent level of interest expressed here, I have just started a formal forum request over on sys: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056734688

I gave my +1 there just now. Anyone else willing to give it their +1?

Judgement Day

haulagebasher wrote: »

OK, given the decent level of interest expressed here, I have just started a formal forum request over on sys: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056734688

I gave my +1 there just now. Anyone else willing to give it their +1?

Only if it means that all bus threads will be moved there from the rest of C+T.

thomasj

I don't think it should be confined to bus/rail enthusiasts.

I'm sure there are people out there who have as much as an interest in boats/ferries and planes. Maybe there should be a generic enthusiast forum with sub forums for rail and bus if there are so many threads.

Just my thoughts!

Conway635

Judgement Day wrote: »

Only if it means that all bus threads will be moved there from the rest of C+T.

I've given it my +1 too.

However, I'd say that, as with rail, the systems/infrastructure/enthusiast stuff should be in the new forum, while C&T would remain the place for threads discussing bus travel/commuting issues - the OPs of which are usually non enthusiast general members of the public.

C635

bk

thomasj wrote: »

I'm sure there are people out there who have as much as an interest in boats/ferries and planes. Maybe there should be a generic enthusiast forum with sub forums for rail and bus if there are so many threads.

Well there is already the Aviation & Aircraft forum. There are also the Trains & Rail systems, Roads and motoring forums.

So really we are only missing Boats & Ferries and Buses & Coaches forums.

JD, only if all rail threads are moved to Train & Rail Systems forum :P

Vahevala

To be honest, the more sub forums you add, the less people will want to visit and the main board gets quiet.

I am still not very sure what the existing subforum on here is for

flyingsnail

bk wrote: »

Well there is already the Aviation & Aircraft forum. There are also the Trains & Rail systems, Roads and motoring forums.

So really we are only missing Boats & Ferries and Buses & Coaches forums.

JD, only if all rail threads are moved to Train & Rail Systems forum :P

There is already a Maritime forum that would cover boats and ferries
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1539

steamengine

bk wrote: »

Well that would actually be a positive for the spotter types. Things have become quiet boring for the train spotters due to the high level of standardisation at Irish Rail and how unlikely we are to see any change for the next 20 years.

With buses, you can see all sorts of different types and varieties which is good for spotters.

BTW I have no interest in "spotting buses", My interest in buses and all public transport is how to get people from a to b in the most cost effective and efficient manner possible.

The spotting equipment would be much the same ok., the only additional items I can think of would be some sick bags !!! :pac::pac::pac:

CIE

In case people are wondering what could be in a bus enthusiast sub-forum, here's one example...

Vahevala

Vahevala wrote: »

To be honest, the more sub forums you add, the less people will want to visit and the main board gets quiet.

I am still not very sure what the existing subforum on here is for

I don't think it would put the main forum under threat. The main C&T forum was intended to be (as bk said above) about going from A to B and the current day-to-day operation of such services. The average commuter wouldn't be interested in threads about what days DF450 is out on the Ghost Bus or photo threads of trains and buses.

Whereas the enthusiast forums would be for the more nitty gritty stuff. Such as discussion of the actual buses, locomotives and rolling stock or about heritage and preservation operations.

Judgement Day

It could also have threads such as "Just how many buses have to be burnt before a light comes on" featuring http://www.kellstransportmuseum.com/ - note the first photograph where the surviving buses are lined up closely together ready for ...:rolleyes:

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

It could also have threads such as "Just how many buses have to be burnt before a light comes on" featuring http://www.kellstransportmuseum.com/ - note the first photograph where the surviving buses are lined up closely together ready for ...:rolleyes:

i dont see the relevance of an Ulsterbus Museum in Cork

The Idyll Race

corktina wrote: »

i dont see the relevance of an Ulsterbus Museum in Cork

The owner likes Ulsterbus? Can't see how that's anyone elses business, unless "we" have a veto on what other people want to do? :rolleyes:

CIE

The Idyll Race wrote: »

The owner likes Ulsterbus? Can't see how that's anyone elses business, unless "we" have a veto on what other people want to do? :rolleyes:

We ought to break up Bus Eireann and have Leinsterbus, Connachtbus and Munsterbus. JMHO...

foggy_lad

CIE wrote: »

We ought to break up Bus Eireann and have Leinsterbus, Connachtbus and Munsterbus. JMHO...

We might get a decent service to Waterford and Carlow then!

corktina

CIE wrote: »

We ought to break up Bus Eireann and have Leinsterbus, Connachtbus and Munsterbus. JMHO...

what about places like Donegal then? No buses?

You don't need MunsterBus but you do need CorkBus, LimerickBus etc. Local enough to care, but big enouigh to compete.

CIE

corktina wrote: »

what about places like Donegal then? No buses?

You don't need MunsterBus but you do need CorkBus, LimerickBus etc. Local enough to care, but big enouigh to compete.

Does Ulsterbus change province names when it crosses into Leinster when running to Dublin?

You can have county-named bus companies as well. Field's wide open.

The Idyll Race

corktina wrote: »

what about places like Donegal then? No buses?

You don't need MunsterBus but you do need CorkBus, LimerickBus etc. Local enough to care, but big enouigh to compete.

Better off to flog off Bus Eireann to the private sector and let them get on with it.

Judgement Day

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Better off to flog off Bus Eireann to the private sector and let them get on with it.

It would be better off, from a strategic point of view, to subsume BE into Iarnrod Eireann and cut all duplicate bus services and use the remaining ones to feed into the rail service - where practical.

The Idyll Race

Judgement Day wrote: »

It would be better off, from a strategic point of view, to subsume BE into Iarnrod Eireann and cut all duplicate bus services and use the remaining ones to feed into the rail service - where practical.

That's what ideally should happen, but alas won't. I've only come to the idea of privatising BE because CIE appear to be happy to let IE come off worse between the two.

bk

Judgement Day wrote: »

It would be better off, from a strategic point of view, to subsume BE into Iarnrod Eireann and cut all duplicate bus services and use the remaining ones to feed into the rail service - where practical.

Even if the bus offers a faster, cheaper and more frequent service then rail? :eek:

The Idyll Race

bk wrote: »

Even if the bus offers a faster, cheaper and more frequent service then rail? :eek:

Try getting the bus from my extremity of Dublin Bus after the schools go back, especially when it goes through two other major suburban towns, you'd never ride a bus again, especially when the fat guy in a tracksuit crunches in beside you with his legs wide open :eek:

bk

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Try getting the bus from my extremity of Dublin Bus after the schools go back, especially when it goes through two other major suburban towns, you'd never ride a bus again, especially when the fat guy in a tracksuit crunches in beside you with his legs wide open :eek:

And how exactly is that any different from being squashed onto a peak time commuter train or red luas with some of the biggest scum on the earth?

Have you note read some of the recent threads on the 4 carriage DARTS or troubles on the red luas line.

Nothing to do with if it is a bus or a train.

And I see no one has answered my question, who in their right mind would replace faster, cheaper buses with trains?

I'll remind people that even the relatively inefficient BE carries 4 times as many passengers per member of staff and twice as many passengers in total as Irish Rail. So perhaps it should be the other way around?

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

And how exactly is that any different from being squashed onto a peak time commuter train or red luas with some of the biggest scum on the earth?

Have you note read some of the recent threads on the 4 carriage DARTS or troubles on the red luas line.

Nothing to do with if it is a bus or a train.

And I see no one has answered my question, who in their right mind would replace faster, cheaper buses with trains?

I'll remind people that even the relatively inefficient BE carries 4 times as many passengers per member of staff and twice as many passengers in total as Irish Rail. So perhaps it should be the other way around?

This is the same Bus Eireann that Deloitte found to be efficient?

The Idyll Race

bk wrote: »

And how exactly is that any different from being squashed onto a peak time commuter train or red luas with some of the biggest scum on the earth?

Have you note read some of the recent threads on the 4 carriage DARTS or troubles on the red luas line.

Nothing to do with if it is a bus or a train.

And I see no one has answered my question, who in their right mind would replace faster, cheaper buses with trains?

I'll remind people that even the relatively inefficient BE carries 4 times as many passengers per member of staff and twice as many passengers in total as Irish Rail. So perhaps it should be the other way around?

You really hate trains, I hate buses, so we have equilibrium!

bk

The Idyll Race wrote: »

You really hate trains, I hate buses, so we have equilibrium!

Actually I don't hate trains. I think the DART and LUAS are great and want to see MN, DU and LUAS BXD all go ahead.

I'm just not blinkered, I don't really care about trains and buses and teleporters. In the end, for me, they are all just a means to an end. I want us to use the fastest, cheapest, environmentally friendly, efficient and flexible way of moving people from a to b.

Judgement Day

What's the point of DART Underground if the Inter-City system is gone as you seem to think desirable/inevitable.

bk

Judgement Day wrote: »

What's the point of DART Underground if the Inter-City system is gone as you seem to think desirable/inevitable.

DART Underground is primarily for the expansion of DART services.

Basically it will help turn the DART from a far too infrequent service to a truly high speed, high frequency mass transit service more like London Underground or the LUAS.

Intercity services have almost zero bearing on DU. Sure intercity might feed some passengers onto the DART, but not significant amounts, a fraction compared to the daily commuters who use DART.

I know there is a VERY long term "idea" that the DU tunnel could also be used by electrified intercity trains, but lets be honest it is very unlikely to happen. It would require billions to be spent on electrifying at least the Cork and Belfast lines. Given the cost and the very small return on investment, very unlikely to happen.

Even if the Cork line was electrified, we are still very unlikely to see intercity trains being run through the DU tunnels. Such trains would simply mess up the DARTs nice new high frequency schedule.

Better to terminate intercity services at Hueston and have better transfer to the DART with a spur to the airport or LUAS/DART -> Metro North -> Airport.

After all intercity trains don't use London underground tunnels in London do they? It has always been a sort of crazy and unworkable idea.

So what exactly does intercity rail have to do with DU again?

BTW do I desire the closer of intercity services? Certainly not.

Do I think it is inevitable? Maybe, if IR don't pull their figure out, reduce costs and improve services then it probably is.

SandyfordGuy

kieran4003 wrote: »

ntercity Bus is designed to move a person from A to B as cheaply as possible, not to be a luxury service which you sometimes advocate. If you want leather seats, plugs and toilets - that is what a train is for.

In you opinion maybe, but the fact is not just in Ireland, Coach operators are starting to offer such features and this is a plus for passengers. If the train operators do not like it hen that is just tough, any improvement to train services or bus services should be welcome even if that means the lines get blurred between the facilities such offer.

It is fine to say aswell that private companies can provide Intercity bus services at no cost to the state unlike subvented rail, but for example, Aircoach is loss making now and has been for a few years, How long can that continue

Actually, the last results were for the first ones that had been lost making for several years, and the company was making good profits previous to that. I believe they have quite a surplus in their profit and loss account which was built up between 2004-2010, so I'd say one six figure loss is not going to make a huge dent in a company that has made a few million in retained profits beforehand. Of course it's a tough trading environment but it always will be for companies who are entirely self funded

Of course for transparency I will say that I have associations with CIE, but I think my posts state facts and facts only. I have knowledge of the transport scene nationally. I only starting posting on this after being frustrated for a long time about the crazy CIE bashing going on here. I know they are far from perfect and people will have genuine complaints, but many people here have a strange probem with CIE.

This is the problem I have here, you added many posts to threads singing the praises of CIE but only now are you actually coming out and admitting your connections and have not posted in the conflict of interest thread as per the charter. I appreciate that you have now clarified your position as this now puts your posts into context.

There are without doubt people on here who are far too anti Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, and Irish Rail, but at the same time it goes without saying there are also those who seem to feel they can do wrong. I'm not saying you are one of those, but it's not like it's one sided when it comes to this board.

bk

kieran4003 wrote: »

I am sorry, but I find the last point in this post is complete nonsense. Of course a railway requires more staff, who do you you think will maintain the permanent way? Unless you have evidence of a railway somewhere else in the world that does not require permanent way and station staff?

Yes, we are all well aware that rail costs an awful lot of money to build and maintain. That is why it is so important to build it and use it where it is really needed. Where it delivers an economic and/or social benefit that can't be provided by a cheaper form of transport like bus.

kieran4003 wrote: »

Intercity rail is an essential part of any national economy.

Is it? Honestly?

Yes, it once was, when we had terrible, dangerous roads. But times change. Today over 70% of all intercity journeys are made by road and 99% of freight is carried by road.

If intercity rail went on strike or closed down tomorrow, would the national economy really suffer? How exactly?

Sure there would be more cars on the motorways and more bus coaches would be needed, but I don't see any major impact to the economy. And don't forget the money you would save on not having to subvent and bail out IR intercity services any more.

Now I'm not saying that is desirable, but lets not make out intercity rail is more important then it really is.

kieran4003 wrote: »

You are extremely anti rail for some reason while Intercity bus services can do no wrong. I for one am not suggesting replacing Intercity buses with trains, both are very important. Intercity Bus is designed to move a person from A to B as cheaply as possible, not to be a luxury service which you sometimes advocate. If you want leather seats, plugs and toilets - that is what a train is for.

Well bus coaches can just be as comfortable as trains. They actually have more legroom and more comfortable seats then rail. They also had wifi before IR and they can have plugs at seats and toilets too.

In asia you even have airline style first class seats on coaches and bar and food services. All possible, if not unlikely.

Also if people want the "luxury" of a train, then why in gods name should I be paying for it? As long as we have a comfortable and adequate way to move people from a to b at no cost to the taxpayer, then I think if people want a more "luxurious" option they should pay the full cost itself.

Using "luxury" as a reason for the heavy subvention of rail services isn't going to gain you many supporters amongst the hard hit general public.

There has to be more benefit to rail then just that.

kieran4003 wrote: »

People are willing to pay more for the train. Even with most fares now being 40 Euro return Dublin - Cork, Demand remains very strong on all services while revenue has improved. A classic example is the 30 Euro return student fare, which has been a big success and has been extended. Several of my College degree are currently on placement in Dublin, They are all using it and are delighted with it.

Unfortunately the numbers don't bear that out. Rail passenger numbers are down significantly. I could see that for myself on the Cork train that I use to take every month. It use to be a case of standing room only a few years ago, but now it is the case that even the 5pm ex-Dublin has empty seats.

Of course we would have a better view of this if things hadn't gotten so bad that it seems even Irish Rail has stopped publishing passenger numbers as part of it's Annual General Report!!

kieran4003 wrote: »

It is fine to say aswell that private companies can provide Intercity bus services at no cost to the state unlike subvented rail, but for example, Aircoach is loss making now and has been for a few years, How long can that continue? How many private operators have gone out of business over the last few years? BE and IE have seen many companies come and go in their 25 years, yet they are still there and keeping the country moving.

Name a private intercity bus company that has gone out of business?

kieran4003 wrote: »

Of course for transparency I will say that I have associations with CIE, but I think my posts state facts and facts only. I have knowledge of the transport scene nationally. I only starting posting on this after being frustrated for a long time about the crazy CIE bashing going on here. I know they are far from perfect and people will have genuine complaints, but many people here have a strange probem with CIE.

But I can easily explain why many people dislike CIE companies. Because many people see CIE as a very inefficient and costly company only run for their own benefit and completely reactionary, never innovative.

Let me give you the view of a Corkonian living in Dublin who uses public transport to get home once a month.

Until this year CIE deigned to only give me the option of an expensive train ticket to Cork (€80) or a cheap but slow (4 hour 30 minute) bus ride to Cork, with the last bus leaving Cork being 6pm and basically no late night public transport services between our two largest.

Now we have Aircoach, far from perfect yet, but fast (slight faster then the train), cheap and fantastic schedule with late night services. This is a total revolution in public transport to Cork/Limerick/Galway.

And lets be honest, these cheap fares Irish Rail are offering wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the competition from the likes of Aircoach, CityLink, GoBus, etc.

Add to that the completely dreadful city bus service BE operate in Cork and you are surprised there is so much dislike of CIE?

CIE

Yes, it once was, when we had terrible, dangerous roads. But times change. Today over 70% of all intercity journeys are made by road and 99% of freight is carried by road

Where, in the country that leads the European Union?

CIE

bk wrote: »

Even if the bus offers a faster, cheaper and more frequent service then rail? :eek:

We've yet to find an example of that which is not the result of government distortion between the modes. Outside Ireland, it's not a problem for trains to be much faster than road transport. Not even Ulsterbus is faster than the Enterprise between Dublin and Newry even with the Enterprise delayed for eleven minutes by DART signals. It's one thing to complain that Ireland's intercity rail service is slower than that of other countries, and yet another thing to insist on keeping the status quo and not improving rail in spite of that merely because the honeymoon with motorways is not yet over for some odd reason (it soon will be...Ireland continues to be a half-century behind everyone and it doesn't make sense why).

bk

You blame the government, yet they gave Irish Rail everything they asked for.

I blame CIE/IR for being to busy playing at being property developers instead of running rail.

Just chucking more money down the pit that is CIE/IR isn't going to fix anything and will just be more waste of valuable tax payers money.

Lets fix CIE/IR first and then we can talk about investment in rail.

devnull

bk wrote: »

Add to that the completely dreadful city bus service BE operate in Cork and you are surprised there is so much dislike of CIE?

I didn't think it was that bad, apart from the lack of double deckers which only recently has been tackled to some degree.