New gadget invention...

cormie

I have, what I think is a potentially great idea for a new gadget and would be interested in taking it further if possible. The gadget itself will be somewhat complicated to produce. Wifi technology etc built in, but at the same time, it's functionality is quite simple. I believe if it can be produced and sold for an affordable price, it has pretty big potential, worldwide for all sorts of applications.

Unfortunately, I have absolutely no experience with inventions, patents, design process, electronics, engineering, programming or anything needed to even get a prototype going. I'm just the guy with the idea and the vision for now.

Just looking for any pointers as to where might be the best place to start. With something like this I'd be happy to get a small part of a big thing rather than a big part of nothing. It would probably need a good bit of funding and would certainly need to get out there before any rip off replicas were made. So it would need to be designed and produced secretly and to a high standard with a big enough production outlet to meet potential demand. There would also need to be some kind of section to deal with faulty products, support etc. Marketing wise, I think won't be too much of a struggle. I'd hope to achieve a price that's affordable and it's the kind of product that is cool enough to buy even if you won't use it too often and could probably spread through forums or social media virally too.

So where does a clueless person go from here? Any advice on first steps to take, where maybe I could pitch the idea without risking it's stolen off me etc. Would I need a patent before going that far or even a working prototype? I can't even imagine how much it would cost to get off the ground so any advice at all would be greatly appreciated

Peterdalkey

Have a read through this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79955356
And you will get an idea of how to proceed.

Cheers

Peter

cormie

Thanks for the link. Had a read through the thread and it seems like patenting it is step 1 I guess.

With regards patenting. Do you not need a product made and the patent described in detail as to what function does what, how it's designed etc or can you simply patent an idea, as in, describe what it should do and how it should do it.

Also, as far as I know, patents don't stop copycats still and gadget wise, as far as I know, China is huge in the copycat industry and someone there might have the resources and the links, especially with production, to totally overpower what I'd have?

I'd be willing to put a good bit of my savings into this, I'm just not sure what I can offer in the realisation of the product itself.

Peterdalkey

No you dont need to make one, just write up the description and do a few sketches. A Patent Agent will assess it and cvheck that it has not been done before... know as search for Prior Art. If it is looking good at that stage they can help to have it written up in waterttight technical terms and apply for patent protection.
As to copying from China, your main protection is that they cannot sell it in your patent protected regions and you can sue anyone who is retailing it. Suing anybody very expensive, so you woukld probably be best to get patent protection, then get a proptype made and then seek to licence the product to a larger organisation who are active in the gadget field. They would have the resources to develop the manufacturing and marketing.... and defend patent infringements.

Google "Swingbyte" and look at their story from a good many write ups. It is a wifi to Iphone/pad golf swing widget+app. Great product, great story!!


Hope this is of some use

Cheers

Peter

bizzyb

cormie wrote: »

Thanks for the link. Had a read through the thread and it seems like patenting it is step 1 I guess.

With regards patenting. Do you not need a product made and the patent described in detail as to what function does what, how it's designed etc or can you simply patent an idea, as in, describe what it should do and how it should do it.

Also, as far as I know, patents don't stop copycats still and gadget wise, as far as I know, China is huge in the copycat industry and someone there might have the resources and the links, especially with production, to totally overpower what I'd have?

I'd be willing to put a good bit of my savings into this, I'm just not sure what I can offer in the realisation of the product itself.

Maybe im wrong here as i don't have much business experience, but rather spending a lot of money and months of your time and effort on a patent you could end up having wasted it all on a product that won't sell. If it was me i would do up a nice presentation folder with drawings etc, phone buyers in your sector talk to them and the will tell you firstly if it is a good idea and then what tweaks the product needs at least the then you will know if the product suits the buyer rather than what you think would suit them. The will also tell you what price the product needs to be,at least then you can go and see a manufacturer and see can you make a profit. At least this approach is peanuts compared to a patent, i wouldn't worry about a buyer stealing your idea he is not interested in stealing business ideas. Im sure someone with more experience will say im wrong but best of luck!

Peterdalkey

You need to be very careful about disclosing to 3rd parties or you can make the invention un-patentable. I assume you have done some general soundings without disclosing the actual invention to see what friends/family think of the general idea. I would stronly suggest that you at least talk to a patent attorney at this early stage and make sure you do nothing to undermine any potential patent. Ring a few and ask how much they charge for an initial consultation

http://www.aptma.ie/firms.htm. Link to list of patent agents in Ireland and contact details. I have always used Anne Ryan & co. and would recommend them highly

Nuttzz

out of interest what sort of money do patent agents charge?

Peterdalkey

Nuttzz wrote: »

out of interest what sort of money do patent agents charge?

It is a long time since I had one done from scratch and it depends what territories you want to protect. A call to one on the list would get you an outline.

CatFromHue

I personally would create a prototype before doing anything else. I'd want to prove to myself that it worked as I'd thought and also in building the prototype I'd expect to learn alot more about the product itself.

Peterdalkey

The real value is in the concept/novel idea. It seems to me that the technology to deliver the end product already exists, or am I mistaken? I would seek to protect that which has value to exploit, licence or sell.
If the OP was an engineer/techie, they would probably have been able to have a prototype knocked up already. I suspect this is not the case here, but I am only guessing.

cormie

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help everyone.

Peter you're right, I'm certainly not an engineer or techie. The technology is all there for it to be made however which is a good thing, so it's just a case of putting it all together.

I was speaking to the creator of this today: http://www.shamrockgym.com/ and he mentioned about a patent which may have cost 2K expiring after 2 years? That sounds a bit expensive if it's 1k a year to keep a patent going?

Where would I go to get a prototype done up I wonder? There's always the problem of leaking info again, I don't want to go asking around too much. I'd rather know that I go this place for patent, that place for prototype, the other place for manufacturing etc. All trustworthy places who do this kind of thing regularly for inventors.

I could certainly do up sketches and descriptions on how I envisage it working anyway. I'm not sure how much detail I'd need to go into though. What if there were different versions of it too that were used for different applications, but the same basic idea, would I need a patent for each different design I wonder?

Peterdalkey

cormie wrote: »

Thanks again for all the suggestions and help everyone.

Peter you're right, I'm certainly not an engineer or techie. The technology is all there for it to be made however which is a good thing, so it's just a case of putting it all together.

I was speaking to the creator of this today: http://www.shamrockgym.com/ and he mentioned about a patent which may have cost 2K expiring after 2 years? That sounds a bit expensive if it's 1k a year to keep a patent going?
M
Where would I go to get a prototype done up I wonder? There's always the problem of leaking info again, I don't want to go asking around too much. I'd rather know that I go this place for patent, that place for prototype, the other place for manufacturing etc. All trustworthy places who do this kind of thing regularly for inventors.

I could certainly do up sketches and descriptions on how I envisage it working anyway. I'm not sure how much detail I'd need to go into though. What if there were different versions of it too that were used for different applications, but the same basic idea, would I need a patent for each different design I wonder?

I appreciate where you are coming from but would pose this question. If it were to transpire that the device is not patentable, is it still a viable opportunity? I genuinely think you should establish this as a first step. The patent attorney will also guide you as to how to proceed with negotiations with designers, prototype producers etc. to ensure your IP is protected.

cormie

Thanks again Peter. Can I ask did you successfully invent something yourself from scratch too? Did you have much input into it? Did it become a success and did you have much of a role in it becoming so, or did you just have the initial idea and if so, what kind of a % of profits were you on? I'd want the best deal for myself of course. I guess a patent attorney would be on my side when it comes to making the most out of it and not spending where I don't need to or going with overpriced prototype makers etc?

EDIT: Wow, just saw this: http://fab.com/inspiration/torr-classic-pen

Hey Backers!

Lots of you saw the pen featured on Fab.com today. It's a stainless steel pen in a ruler sleeve that bears an uncanny resemblance to Pen Type-A. Thanks for your emails and messages bringing this to our attention. This was a complete surprise to us when we saw it. Just to be clear, we are not affiliated with those pens in any way, except that we immediately recognized Allen from the images on their site. He is the US half of the two person duo we hired to manufacture the pens in China. (He hugged us when we last saw him!)

We’re looking into this and we’ll update you when we find out more.

Thanks for all your support. The adventure continues!

Basically, the quote above is from the original designers of the pen, it was a huge success on kickstarter (they needed about 2.5k and got about 280k!) almost a year ago now and it seems that one of the guys they were working with ripped off the product and is selling his own at the same premium price the original is going for. How can you prevent this type of thing from occurring?

Peterdalkey

I have developed two patents from scratch, one for a product and one was a process patent, but both were exploited within my own business. I would not be able to share the margin information with you for commercial reasons but I can tell you they were personally very rewarding in financial terms.
Our most successful products ever were in fact not patentable, but we protected them with branding and registered world-wide Trade Marks. One has been quite widely copied but mostly with inferior quality as we had engineered the product to make it very difficult to economically replicate.

As to the pen thing, did they have a patent on the design? If so that is how they protect it, if not, that is the real world. Just look at the fashion industry where look alike knock off designs are rampant. You do need deep pockets to defend patent infringements.

I think we are getting ahead of ourselves a bit here, as it is still not known if your gadget can be patented!!

Cheers

Peter

cormie

Thanks again Peter. Could even be good to meet up with yourself if you're in Dalkey. I'm only in Dun Laoghaire myself but I guess I've to establish whether it is patentable and of course, get to work on some drawings and descriptive workings of the device before I do anything.

So I guess...

1) Do draw ups and description of how the device should work, how it will be designed, possible different design options.
2) go to patent attorney like you mentioned (The crowd in Northumberland Road). They check originality and advise on prototype maker and manufacturer.
3) get prototype made
4) possibly approach larger tech companies or investors
5) manufacture
6) sell.

Is that somewhat right?

Peterdalkey

PM sent

cormie

Thanks Peter, got your PM. Had a look at your website too. I'll try get something done up anyway. Really appreciate your help so far and the contact details too!

Mickk

Hey Cormac,

this might sound a little bit harsh but I'd/will say the same to your face next wednesday! You need to man up and put your money where your mouth is. If you really really believe that this has worldwide potential you shouldn't think twice about spending 2k to protect it. Also patent attorney's know about patent law, what Peter was saying is they will advise you what you can say to a designer/prototype maker (eg nondisclosure agreements), you have to get out there and find them/pay them to make it. It sounds to me like you don't really want to put much money into this, if I was you I would pay the 2k and get a patent applied for, that protects you from the date of application and then you can go and try and sell/license the idea without the expense of getting the patent granted around the world (can easily cost over 100k depending on how many countries you want) or even prototype and design costs. You have 18 or 24 months between applying for the patent before the further expenses.

In terms of the type of patent, the pen type A you mention below had a design patent, there is nothing new there that could be patented as a "new invention". It's a stainless steel case for a pen, there is nothing unique about that. A utility patent protects the function or utility of a new product, the legal term that the patent officer decides your application on is if you product is both unique and a "non obvious inventive step" from anything else out there. If your product is just a combination of existing things you probably wont get a utility patent on it, it would probably be deemed that if you just added wifi to something that exists that it was an obvious progression and not utility patentable.

cormie

Thanks a lot Mickk, all advice welcome no matter how harsh!

The fear I'd have isn't spending money, but running out of money before I've something secure and marketable. I'd have no problem paying 2K to protect it if I knew I could sell or license the idea. In fact, that would probably be the best course of action for me to take as I couldn't really give any valuable input into the production/engineering or worldwide mass marketing of product. I could do the start (the idea) and I guess the end too (running a simple website and fulfilling worldwide orders), if it kept simple enough. Dealing with returns and repairs I wouldn't know what to do though. Probably be easiest just to ship a new one rather than having an in house repair service as again, I couldn't do that alone. So maybe it would be best to just license it for everything past the idea stage to somebody used to all of this and just hope to benefit and potentially even live off whatever % I might get from the license agreement. Is that achievable I wonder if the product is good enough?

I did a search online since (it's a very new idea in my head and didn't even get that far before posting), anyway, somebody had made something with the same basic idea but only as a home project, so nothing looked patented. Also, the idea I have is far more advanced and likely to succeed and makes it a million times better. The good news is the few comments on the other thing were very positive with people really wanting one and I feel that's how the reaction would be from a few certain demographics, especially with all the added functionality of mine.

mawk

why dont you email that guy who made it and ask if he would like to collaborate. sounds like he has the skills to prototype the units

cormie

Thanks for the suggestion but I don't think that would work and his isn't really a marketable solution either. It can be made far better with the right manufacturing process.

IrlDigi

PM Sent

cormie

Got your PM, thanks. I'll have to take a closer look at it and everything as a whole and think everything over. I'll probably be going to a patent lawyer before anything though I guess?

random.stranger

cormie wrote: »

...somebody had made something with the same basic idea but only as a home project, so nothing looked patented. Also, the idea I have is far more advanced and likely to succeed and makes it a million times better.

This is what is known as prior art. Even though the person hasn't patented their home project, the fact that it has been publicly disclosed online before you filed for a patent means that you cannot patent this aspect of your design. Your design may still be patentable if the other features it has to make it more advanced are innovative.

I suggest you gather all the prior art you can find to present to your patent attourney at your first meeting with them. This will give them a good idea of how patentable your design may be.

The patent attourney wants to keep the patent as broad as possible to cover as many variations of your design as they can think of. Prior art is something they have to navigate their way around, forcing them to be more specific. The more specific a patent is, the easier it is for somebody to design a similar product without infringing the patent.

I suggest you have the initial discussion with your patent attourney to check you have something that they feel can have a strong patent. If you do, get as much work done as possible before filing for a patent, while being very careful about how much you disclose about your idea (conversations with patent attourneys/enterprise boards/Enterprise Ireland, are protected by law).

As soon as you file for a patent the clock is ticking. The initial fees are just the beginning, three years after your patent has been approoved the fees start to snowball, your product needs to be earning significant income in order to be able to sustain these fees. If you can't afford these fees your patent will expire & if there is a big enough market for your product, there will be plenty of people waiting in the wings to take your design.

I'm open to correction to any of the above.

cormie

Thanks a lot for that. Didn't know about the prior art. I'll gather all this information together and try and make the most of my first visit with the patent attorney.

I'm guessing the patent attorney is my trust source in this. They deal with this all the time and it's their job to make sure my idea stays secure and nobody knows about it, if I follow the steps they set out, until it's legally secure with a patent. I'm also protected by law with them.

random.stranger

cormie wrote: »

Thanks a lot for that. Didn't know about the prior art. I'll gather all this information together and try and make the most of my first visit with the patent attorney.

I'm guessing the patent attorney is my trust source in this. They deal with this all the time and it's their job to make sure my idea stays secure and nobody knows about it, if I follow the steps they set out, until it's legally secure with a patent. I'm also protected by law with them.

You're very welcome. It sounds like a clever strategy to try to make the most of your first meeting, with any luck the patent attourney will give you the first consultation free.

Yes, you should be able to trust your patent attorney, it is always best to get a reputable one. Most University/IT innovation centres have a relationship with a patent attourney. I think the bigger firms may be more expensive, but if you get somebody that charges more reasonable rates & is tied in with an innovation centre you should be on to a winner.

Also, patent attourneys specialise in different areas, don't get a patent attourney that specialises in mechanical patents to draw up a patent for an electronic device.

cormie

I guess the only way to find out what the different attorneys specialise in, is to ring them up and ask. What are these innovation centres? Are they a cheaper way to go about coming up with an invention but may bear more risk in terms of losing a patent or having to share more equity or having a longer process to go through to get it going?

random.stranger

cormie wrote: »

I guess the only way to find out what the different attorneys specialise in, is to ring them up and ask. What are these innovation centres? Are they a cheaper way to go about coming up with an invention but may bear more risk in terms of losing a patent or having to share more equity or having a longer process to go through to get it going?

Well, you could always do a search for a patent attorney.
Type something like this into Google:
electronic patent attorney site:.ie


I would make sure anybody I approach is on the register of Patent Agents:
http://www.patentsoffice.ie/en/patents_agents.aspx

Innovation centres are usually units set up in colleges to support new business. Most colleges in the country have an innovation centre.
Google:
innovation centre site:.ie

Its hard to say if innovation centres are cheaper/riskier/slower than going on your own. I'm sure different people have had different experiences. I wasn't pushing for or against using them, I was just stating that they may be abe to recommend a patent attourney to you.

cormie

Thanks again for the info! Peterdalkey recommended a specific attorney too so I might go with them based on his recommendation and they are local too Will check out on the innovation centre's too anyway!