Those nuns who ran the Magdelene Laundries...

Mr. Loverman

Jimminy Mc Fukhead wrote: »

Can we clarify - Is this light Red, or is it Blue?

The red one is by Ruhama, the blue one is by prostitutes and possibly pimps.

kunst nugget

Jimminy Mc Fukhead wrote: »

Can we clarify - Is this light Red, or is it Blue?

Turn off the Red Light is the anti-prostitution site
Turn off the Red Light is the pro-prostitution site

kunst nugget

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

The red one is by Ruhama, the blue one is by prostitutes and possibly pimps.

Tbf, Turn Off the Red Light is made up of a core group from all these organisations:

AkiDwA

Aoibhness Refuge

APT (Act to Prevent Trafficking)

Barnardos

Bray Women’s Refuge

Children’s Rights Alliance

Communications Workers’ Union

Domestic Violence Advocacy Service

Doras Luimni

Dublin Rape Crisis Centre

Focus Ireland

FOF (Feminist Open Forum)

FOMACS (Forum on Migration and Communications)

Freedom From Pornography Campaign

ICTU

Immigrant Council of Ireland

Impact Trade Union

Inchicore Women’s support Group

Irish Country Women’s Association

Irish Feminist Network

Irish Girl Guides

Irish Medical Organisartion

Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation

Labour Party

Macra na Feirme

Men’s Development Network

MRCI

NASC Cork

National Child Protection Training Centre

National Women’s Council of Ireland

One in Four Ireland

Pavee Point Travellers’ Centre

Public Service Executive Union committee

Rape Crisis Network Ireland

Rathmines Women’s Refuge

Religious Sisters of Charity

Ruhama

SAFE Ireland

Saoirse Refuge

SARI

SIPTU

Sligo Rape Crisis Centre

SONAS Housing

Soroptimist International Ireland

Stop Sex Trafficking Cork

TEEU (Technical, Engineering and Electrical Union)

Tirzah Ireland

UNITE

VAW Exhibition 365

Viva House

Women’s Aid

Young Social Innovators Ireland

Fuinseog

kunst nugget wrote: »

And why are they labelled unclean?



You have got to be kidding me. Have you not read the personal testimonies of the women put into these laundries? Also, if these women, some of whom were the victims of rape, were disowned by their families the reason is because of the fire and brimstone teachings of the Catholic Church in this country.



I would like to see that backed up with facts, please. Can you let me know what the difference in cleanliness between when the nuns ran them and now? Also, have you a breakdown in terms of infection risks in wards now and then as well?

I also read Cathys story which turned out to be a work of fiction. times were hard back then and folks just got on with things.
prossies are regarded as unclean. who would want one as a neighbour or friend (not friend with benefits)?
those who experienced hospitals under the nuns will tell you they were far better run than secular staff.
their families could have had the balls to stand up to the church. its not as if we were a bunch of thickos back then and are living now in an age of enlightenment. i do not buy the calm the church for all your woes argument.

a lot of people experience bad things in their lives. some get over themselves and others make a career of their suffering and bask in the media limelight.

krudler

ROOOXXXXXXXAAANNNNEEEE!



Sorry all this talk of red lights made that stick in my head

subway

conspiracy theories ?
humanities ?
but after hours, cmon, wtf?

you've been posting about this for years, do a study or some research, no one involved in supporting the at risk members of our society seems to agree with your ramblings on any level. Ruhama appear to do good work and offer good support, they have a catholic background and an "end prostitution" agenda which they dont particularly hide.

if you're so hell bent against them, ranting on boards is not having much effect, so perhaps a support org that is pro-prostitution to couterpoint them would be a better start. preferably an independent one (not just run by pimps, sex-workers or religious folk), do some research to support the sex industry in ireland, publish it etc.

Mr. Loverman

Thanks.

It was originally started by Ruhama and The Immigrant Council of Ireland (who btw use Ruhama's data for their own publications).

subway

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Thanks.

It was originally started by Ruhama and The Immigrant Council of Ireland (who btw use Ruhama's data for their own publications).

what alternative data is there to support a counterclaim?

subway

I'm trying to decipher your position here, this is what I've got so far:

magdalene laundries - bad (I agree)
ruhama - run by people associated with the running of the laundries therefore bad by association (this is where we deviate)

this leads to:
all ruhama data and studies being tainted
therefore any postion ruhama hold on traffcing or prostition is untenable
anyone associated with ruhama or there actions is questionable (many charity organisations, the national broadcaster, etc)

now, we agree on the laundries, but disagree on the rest. ruhama produce reports and data, you produce rhetoric and posts on boards.ie. you are allowing the connection to taint your judgement. provide one counter report that backs up your claims and accusations and i will happily read it.

these claims:

their definition of trafficking is dishonest; their belief that all prostitution is controlled and forced is incorrect; and their inability to provide the Gardai with sufficient evidence for most of their claims makes me doubt their honesty

Cienciano

liamhana wrote: »

Ridiculous assumption that there is anything not above board with Ruhama...

fact is most long serving NGOs/Charities in Ireland have some past that involves orphanages/laundries etc Not a 'glorious' past or something to be proud of but Ruhama is a Legit organisation with a board made up of lay people and funded on the basis of work plans/audited accounts etc.

Trying to say they are problematic is like saying we shouldnt support Trocaire or Vincent de Paul who both have their past/present in catholic organisations.

they are only one of the groups that support the turn off the red light project, which is up front and named...the blue light campaign? a piece of pimp led crap. Nearly 100% of prostitution in ireland is pimped and therefore forced....websites are controlled by gangs/pimps and nearly all girls are moved around the place.
Any 'buyer' should be named and shamed.

Don't agree with any of that, and if any police interviews I've seen on the news or documentaries, the garda dont believe it either. Sex trafficing is almost non existing in Ireland.

Mr. Loverman

subway wrote: »

what alternative data is there to support a counterclaim?

I have no problem giving Ruhama credit for what they do well:

They are brilliant at getting their stories into the media.
They are brilliant at producing data which cannot be verified.

No other organisation which deals with prostitution comes anywhere close to being as vocal.

Of course, prostitution is a very emotive topic and the average person's reaction will of course be to believe what Ruhama say.

But based on their sordid history, based on the fact that their definition of trafficking is false, based on the fact that their belief that all prostitution is controlled and forced is false, and based on the fact that most of their data cannot be verified and has led to nearly no arrests...

kunst nugget

Fuinseog wrote: »

I also read Cathys story which turned out to be a work of fiction. times were hard back then and folks just got on with things.
prossies are regarded as unclean. who would want one as a neighbour or friend (not friend with benefits)?

Why are prostitutes regarded as unclean though. Answer me that. And if one person writes a false memoir does that negate the experiences that real victims suffered?

Fuinseog wrote: »

those who experienced hospitals under the nuns will tell you they were far better run than secular staff.

Like I said, back it up with facts.

Fuinseog wrote: »

their families could have had the balls to stand up to the church. its not as if we were a bunch of thickos back then and are living now in an age of enlightenment. i do not buy the calm the church for all your woes argument.

I work with a guy in his sixties. When his wife was younger she went to school with another chap that was an illegitimate child. He was not allowed to sit with the other children and when the Parish priest came to visit the school, he would take the child and beat him senseless in front of the class for no reason other than being born illegitimate. This is but one story.

The church and it's power were all encompassing years ago. I'm not suggesting that everyone was a bunch of thickos but people were unquestioning when it came to what the church decreed. If something was deemed immoral by the church that was the end of it. People were afraid to stand up to the church because they were afraid to be ostracised by their communtiy.

Fuinseog wrote: »

a lot of people experience bad things in their lives. some get over themselves and others make a career of their suffering and bask in the media limelight.

So, if someone comes out and tries to highlight the trauma they and several others experienced they are merely being professional whingers? Have you ever seen anyone suffering from PTSD?

yoho_ahoy

has anyone to do with running of a magdelene laundry spent a night in jail for theire crimes?

Mr. Loverman

Hey tigger123

Do you think the Magdelene Laundries were wrong?

Mr. Loverman

Hi Subway

Ruhama state all foreign prostitutes are trafficked. Ask them, they will tell you this is true.

Ruhama believe all prostitution is controlled and forced. Again, please ask them. They do not hide this belief.

They also claim they help hundreds of trafficked, controlled women each year. If what the claim is true, why are there nearly no arrests?

I have already stated I am involved in a NGO who help prostitutes and what I am told is very out of sync with Ruhama's claims.

EDIT: I fixed grammar and reworded a few sentences that read badly. There was no attempt at misdirection or agenda as subway states. Seriously now, come on...

subway

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I have no problem giving Ruhama credit for what they do well:

They are brilliant at getting their stories into the media.
They are brilliant at producing data which cannot be verified.

more rhetoric while avoiding providing any facts

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

No other organisation which deals with prostitution comes anywhere close to being as vocal.

nothing really wrong with an organisation getting airtime. who are they getting more airtime than? demonstrate that the alternative is being silenced

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Of course, prostitution is a very emotive topic and the average person's reaction will of course be to believe what Ruhama say.

as opposed to? the alternative that you are incapable of producing for us here?

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

But based on their sordid history,

please provide facts (not laundry facts, evidence of ruhama alledged sordid history

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

based on the fact that their definition of trafficking is false

please provide evidence of this claim

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

based on the fact that their belief that all prostitution is controlled and forced is false,

please provide evidence of this claim

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

and based on the fact that most of their data cannot be verified and has led to nearly no arrests...

please provide evidence of this claim

are you getting it yet? or are you just not very good at this debating lark

subway

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Hi Subway

Ruhama state all foreign prostitutes are trafficked. This is not my opinion.

Ruhama state all prostitution is controlled and forced. This is not my opinion.

They also claim they help hundreds of trafficked, controlled women each year. Why are there nearly no arrests?

"not your opinion" does not make their opinion incorrect.
they appear to back their opinion up with studies and data.
you back yours up with strawmen

subway

since youve edited (and not just for grammar as your reason for edting implies. anyone can see your original post quoted)

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Ruhama state all foreign prostitutes are trafficked. Ask them, they will tell you this is true.

you are making the claim, the onus is on you to prove it, since you refuse to, I am happy to diregard it. and not just prove they say it, prove its more than just their reasearched opinion, prove its factually incorrect, and prove that they say this as a means to further the implied agenda you have yet to elaborate on.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Ruhama believe all prostitution is controlled and forced. Again, please ask them. They do not hide this belief.

as above, and I can do this all night

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

They also claim they help hundreds of trafficked, controlled women each year. If what the claim is true, why are there nearly no arrests?

its your claim, you tell me. I'm not here to do your research for you. otherwise its just a strawman.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I have already stated I am involved in a NGO who help prostitutes and what I am told is very out of sync with Ruhama's claims.

why dont you publish the counterclaims.
why dont you tell us the name of the org. do they have an agenda?

Cienciano

subway wrote: »

"not your opinion" does not make their opinion incorrect.
they appear to back their opinion up with studies and data.
you back yours up with strawmen

They have made up stats. They were on vincent brown saying something like 1 in 3 prostitutes have HIV according to their study. They forgot to mention that their study was done on girls working in the street in Kenya!

Mr. Loverman

Subway,

It has already been proven Ruhama is run by the same people who ran the Magdelene Laundries. Please go back and read through the thread.

Ruhama believe all foreign prostitutes are trafficked and all prostitution is forced.

From their website:

"If the person who is trafficked originally consented to travel or choice of work, this consent is irrelevant when exploitation takes place."

In plain English:

They say the woman is trafficked even though she has chosen to come to Ireland to work as a prostitute.

They say she is being forced (her consent is irrelevant) as she is being exploited by having sex for money.

Believe me I am not making this up. They used to use even plainer English but have since changed their website. They literally used to simply state all prostitution is forced and all foreign prostitutes are trafficked.

subway

Cienciano wrote: »

They have made up stats. They were on vincent brown saying something like 1 in 3 prostitutes have HIV according to their study. They forgot to mention that their study was done on girls working in the street in Kenya!

that's pretty poor form but also piss poor journalism from VB if he didnt question them on it.
at 2.5% and first hit on google, it should have been an easy claim to demolish
http://www.drugsandalcohol.ie/6685/1/1631-1531.pdf

what was the statement of the fact in relation to or what was the context of the statement, if you remember?

subway

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Subway,
It has already been proven Ruhama is run by the same people who ran the Magdelene Laundries. Please go back and read through the thread.

you should read my posts instead tbh

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Ruhama believe all foreign prostitutes are trafficked and all prostitution is forced.

From their website:

"If the person who is trafficked originally consented to travel or choice of work, this consent is irrelevant when exploitation takes place."

In plain English:

They say the woman is trafficked even though she has chosen to come to Ireland to work as a prostitute.

They say she is being forced (her consent is irrelevant) as she is being exploited by having sex for money.

i'm not asking you what their opinion is, we have established that and its basis. now you need to prove yours

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Believe me I am not making this up. They used to use even plainer English but have since changed their website. They literally used to simply state all prostitution is forced and all foreign prostitutes are trafficked.

I refuse to believe an anonymous poster who cannot grasp basic concepts of debate.
I will probably start to ignore you at some point if you dont start providing some facts.
you can present your same opinions over and over but it doesnt actually prove or demonstrate anything and that is completely what you fail to grasp

Gummy Panda

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

You have already stated you have no issue with Ruhama being run by the same people who ran the Magdelene Laundries.

Let's not forget these are the same people who believe they did nothing wrong.

I asked you if you agree they did nothing wrong. You chose to ignore this question.

That tells me -- and I am sure most readers here -- everything we need to know about your opinion on this matter.

No further discussion with you is necessary.

You ask loaded questions. Why make a topic on a forum for debate if you just want everyone to be morally outraged like yourself?

Mr. Loverman

Subway:

Are you even reading my posts?

I just quoted Ruhama where they state a woman who chooses to come to Ireland to work as a prostitute is trafficked, and her consent disappears when she starts working as a prostitute.

"If the person who is trafficked originally consented to travel or choice of work, this consent is irrelevant when exploitation takes place."

I can see you are going down the route of ad hominem. Please, it is not necessary. Also, you keep saying you and I are having a debate; why do you believe you and I have agreed to have a debate? I am willing to talk to you in a polite and pleasant manner if that is OK with you.

Gummy Panda:

tigger123 made his/her position quite clear. I have no problem continuing this discussion (as you can see, I am continuing the discussion), but I see no point debating with someone who sees no problem with Ruhama's sordid past and refuses to say whether or not they think the Magdelene Laundries were a bad thing.

I am actually entitled to that, believe it or not.

getz

dont you just love it,a prostitution help organization run by catholic nuns,who have a very dubious track record,in running instutions for who they believe are in sin,how little we forget those who they buried in unmarked graves without even telling the authorities,locking people up 24-7 sometimes for life,for what ,those girls had never committed a CRIME except in the churches eyes,

Mr. Loverman

getz wrote: »

dont you just love it,a prostitution help organization run by catholic nuns,who have a very dubious track record,in running instutions for who they believe are in sin,how little we forget those who they buried in unmarked graves without even telling the authorities,locking people up 24-7 sometimes for life,for what ,those girls had never committed a CRIME except in the churches eyes,

Yet people desperately want to defend them.

ejmaztec

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Yet people desperately want to defend them.

You keep mentioning that the organisations involved have "sordid histories", but what kind of people are running them now, surely their attitudes and systems have changed over the years?

MadPatrick

I reckon the Catholic Church did more damage to Ireland in their time "in charge of everything" that the Brits did in theirs.

Everything them filthy bastards touched with their pedophile fingers went to s hit.
The nuns were just as bad as the brothers, they beat and mentally tortured the girls in the orphanages while the brothers and priests were raping the boys. And they still had the balls to stand above the people and thump their chests and guarantee hell to anyone who even thought about sex. Can you imagine the humiliation the girls in the laundries endured?

I've never visited a prostitute but I believe that any woman can do whatever she wants with her own body.
Sex trafficking is an issue for the police. If I see a priest or nun commenting on an issue I find it difficult to not side against them.

Mr. Loverman

ejmaztec wrote: »

You keep mentioning that the organisations involved have "sordid histories", but what kind of people are running them now, surely their attitudes and systems have changed over the years?

They refuse to acknowledge any wrongdoing and refuse to apologise.

ejmaztec

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

They refuse to acknowledge any wrongdoing and refuse to apologise.

If that's the case they can be forcibly disbanded, have their assets seized, and then they can feck right off.

aidan24326

MadPatrick wrote: »

I reckon the Catholic Church did more damage to Ireland in their time "in charge of everything" that the Brits did in theirs.

Everything them filthy bastards touched with their pedophile fingers went to s hit.
The nuns were just as bad as the brothers, they beat and mentally tortured the girls in the orphanages while the brothers and priests were raping the boys. And they still had the balls to stand above the people and thump their chests and guarantee hell to anyone who even thought about sex. Can you imagine the humiliation the girls in the laundries endured?

I've never visited a prostitute but I believe that any woman can do whatever she wants with her own body.
Sex trafficking is an issue for the police. If I see a priest or nun commenting on an issue I find it difficult to not side against them.

And the girls too. It's a twisted irony that many of them were forced into The Magdalene laundries for getting pregnant out of wedlock only for some of them to subsequently bear children fathered by none other than the priest himself. No-one does hypocrisy quite like the RC church.

As for Ruhama, their claims about sex trafficking and prostitution are greatly exaggerated. They're against prostitution full stop but dress it up as a fight against sex trafficking, something that simply isn't a major issue in Ireland.

Their website makes the bold statement that 'women sell sex because they have to not because they want to', which is exaggerated nonsense. It implies that that's the case for all prostitutes, which simply isn't true.

In fact a few years ago a Sunday World expose of the sex industry in Dublin showed that many of the girls working here were actually from quite good backgrounds and well-educated, here by choice, doing it because they were making lots of money not because they were forced to.

Yes I know it's The Sunday World but if that article was anyway near accurate then the notion that they're all trafficked slaves is nonsense.

subway

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Subway:

Are you even reading my posts?

yes, and you have not posted anything of merit

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I just quoted Ruhama where they state a woman who chooses to come to Ireland to work as a prostitute is trafficked, and her consent disappears when she starts working as a prostitute.

"If the person who is trafficked originally consented to travel or choice of work, this consent is irrelevant when exploitation takes place."

ok, demonstrate that they are wrong and you are on to something

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I can see you are going down the route of ad hominem. Please, it is not necessary.

i dont believe you understand the meaning of that phrase

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Also, you keep saying you and I are having a debate; why do you believe you and I have agreed to have a debate? I am willing to talk to you in a polite and pleasant manner if that is OK with you.

you have posted here, it is not your blog, you are open to debate.
however, i'm not actually sure you understand the meaning of the word debate.

Mr. Loverman

subway wrote: »

you have not posted anything of merit

Subway it's pretty clear you just want to argue. Having a bad day?

subway

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Subway it's pretty clear you just want to argue. Having a bad day?

not at all, having a great day thank you
and i'll happily take this as an admission that you have nothing to support your theories

Mr. Loverman

subway wrote: »

not at all, having a great day thank you
and i'll happily take this as an admission that you have nothing to support your theories

Based on the conversation between us so far, I'm pretty sure I could hand you a video recording of Ruhama saying 1 + 1 = 100 and you'd claim I never provided any proof Ruhama think 1 + 1 = 100. But really, it's OK.

Cienciano

subway wrote: »

ok, demonstrate that they are wrong and you are on to something

Here's one for a start:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/0530/1224316915754.html
150 raids across the country on the same day. Now, if trafficing is as big a problem as Ruhama say, surely there will be a clatter of people arrested and charged, and a load of women rescued. No, just 3 people arrested in Belfast.

And from here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0530/breaking12.html

It was also stressed that human trafficking did not feature in the case.
Judge Bagnall accepted there was no allegations of exploitation and gave the women credit for pleading guilty to brothel keeping and having criminal property.

The problem with Ruhama is that as a religious organisation they're against prostitution and they need to promote the almost non existant human sex trafficing part as much as possible.

goose2005

tigger123 wrote: »

What's wrong with making the demand side illegal? I think it's the way forward tbh, stop criminalising these women.

Pimping, street solicitation, underage sex, slavery etc. are already illegal. It's not clear what criminalising clients would do beyond driving prostitution further underground and making it even more dangerous.

Yamanoto

To my mind, when two consenting adults freely agree to enact a transaction for sex, any state interference, with the exception of health and taxation regulation, would seem to impinge upon the basic privacy and personal freedoms of those involved.

Where there is evidence of trafficking, aggresive and co-ordinated multi-agency pursuit of those involved should be prioritised. Hendrik Wagenaar, associate professor at the Department of Public Administration at Leiden University has undertaken research on prostitution in the Netherlands and the wider EU:

Prostitution policy is also plagued by bad numbers. There are lots of bad numbers based on wild estimates. They say there are millions of victims of trafficking in Europe, but no one has ever counted them.

The whole prostitution debate is driven by emotional numbers, as I tend to call them. We counted the number of illegal prostitutes in Rotterdam, and numbers really were not that high. Each one is one too many, do not get me wrong, but the numbers are not that dramatic. We have about 400 cases of trafficking per year in The Netherlands. A lot of people say that this is just the tip of the iceberg, but no one has ever shown the iceberg, or proven that it exists. I have heard things like ‘more money is made in trafficking worldwide, than in the drug trade and arms trade combined.’ That is complete baloney. Really. You don’t make that much money in trafficking. But it is that kind of stupidity that drives the discourse.

As for Ruhama, their recent 'Turn Off the Red Light' radio campaign (also supported by ICTU Women and the Immigrant Council of Ireland) was incredibly disingenuous in claiming all prostitution in Ireland was as a consequence of sex-trafficking.

While I wholeheartedly agree that vigilance is a necessity, to present the issue in a less than candid manner reflects poorly on the messenger and sullies the credibility of the message.

Min

Ruhama do a good job and have been the best at highlighting prostitution in this country.

I agree with the Swedish model where the user of prostitutes is the person who is breaking the law. It has reduced the level of prostitution to very low levels and also has helped stop the trafficking of sex workers into Sweden.
Ruhama support this, I think the only people it really upset are the people who use prostitutes and pimps.

Mr. Loverman

Min wrote: »

It has reduced the level of prostitution to very low levels

Critics say it has not reduced prostitution; they say it has just been driven further underground and harder to police.

What do you think about regulating prostitution so the women can work in a safe, clean environment?

Cienciano

Min wrote: »

Ruhama do a good job and have been the best at highlighting prostitution in this country.

I agree with the Swedish model where the user of prostitutes is the person who is breaking the law. It has reduced the level of prostitution to very low levels and also has helped stop the trafficking of sex workers into Sweden.
Ruhama support this, I think the only people it really upset are the people who use prostitutes and pimps.

...and the prostitutes.

It's strange that religious folk are so interested in peoples sex lives. I mean, there's nothing illegal or wrong in this country with 2 consenting adults paying for sex, but they don't want anyone to do it. 2 men having sex and getting married makes zero difference to them but they want to stop it. Sex before marriage is wrong, having a **** is wrong too.
For an organisation that don't allow their members to do it, they seem to want to make sure no one else does it either.

Yamanoto

Min wrote: »

I agree with the Swedish model where the user of prostitutes is the person who is breaking the law. It has reduced the level of prostitution to very low levels and also has helped stop the trafficking of sex workers into Sweden.
Ruhama support this, I think the only people it really upset are the people who use prostitutes and pimps.

Sweden's prohibitionist model is a success story?

How so?

Socialstyrelsen (National Board of Health and Welfare)
Monitoring and evaluation of the law was delegated to the Socialstyrelsen, which has produced three reports (2000, 2004, 2007). These acknowledged the difficulties in evaluating the situation and provided no hard evidence that the law had in any way achieved its objectives. The 2007 report states that street prostitution is on the increase after an initial decline and that customers and sex workers now use the internet and mobile phone to communicate.

In 2008 Kajsa Wahlberg, of the human trafficking unit at Sweden's national police board, conceded that accurate statistics are hard to obtain, but estimated that the number of prostitutes in Sweden dropped 40% from 2,500 in 1998 to 1,500 in 2003. However by 2010 she had conceded that the policy had failed, and that issues around prostitution were increasing

Furthermore, the review of their vice laws published in 2010 was criticised on the basis that it was not based on empirical research and failed to consult with sex-workers themselves.

Perhaps the most extraordinary excerpt from the report gives an insight into the bizarre rationale those espousing a prohibitionist approach in Sweden (and elsewhere) are prepared to countenance. It is a quite extraordinary statement.

"Those who defend prostitution argue that it is possible to differentiate between voluntary and non-voluntary prostitution, that adults should have the right to freely sell and freely purchase sex (...) However, based on a gender equality and human rights perspective, (...) the distinction between voluntary and nonvoluntary prostitution is not relevant."

Mr. Loverman

Cienciano

What I think is stranger is that people listen to them, believe them and support them.

I have no problem with a priest saying sex is wrong and spending his life in a cave, but I do find it bizarre so many people will probably support him and follow his lead.

dttq

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

There are a group of nuns called the Good Shepherd Sisters and Our Lady of Charity Sisters who used to run the Magdelene Laundries and now run an organisation called Ruhama.

For about 7 years they ran both the Magdelene Laundries and Ruhama at the same time.

For those of you who don't know, the Magdelene Laundries were forced labour camps for prostitutes. They have since been closed down but the nuns refuse to accept they did anything wrong and are yet to apologise.

Ruhama is their new organisation for dealing with prostitution. (Obviously they cannot use labour camps anymore as they are outlawed.)

They believe all prostitution is forced prostitution and all foreign prostitutes are trafficked prostitutes.

They run a campaign called www.turnofftheredlight.ie which is in direct conflict with the campaign run by sex workers in Ireland, www.turnoffthebluelight.ie

Due to their history we know these women are "misguided" and we know they unapologetically committed tens of thousands of criminal acts including kidnapping and forced labour, yet for some reason the media continues to publish their stories without asking for evidence or mentioning their history.

For example, RTE currently has this story as one of their headlines: http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0822/prostitution-support-group-sees-cases-increase.html

They claim they helped 200 trafficked women last year. They have made similar claims for many, many years. Yet, there have been hardly any arrests nevermind any convictions.

I understand the media have slow news days and will publish press releases as news, but please, these are the same people who ran the Magdelene Laundries.

The also receive over EUR 700,000 in funding from the government each year.

Does anyone else have a problem with this?

These aul wans are just prostitutes for bronze age mythology - the pope is their pimp.

In the year 2012, and in a civilised, modern country, isn't it time organisations like this were disbanded - particularly those with a past record of criminal activity such as this group?

dttq

dharma200 wrote: »

Criminalising prostitutes is ridiculous.

Criminalising religion might be no bad idea though.

mitosis

dttq wrote: »

These aul wans are just prostitutes for bronze age mythology - the pope is their pimp.

In the year 2012, and in a civilised, modern country, isn't it time organisations like this were disbanded - particularly those with a past record of criminal activity such as this group?

What a weird debate! What criminal past does this Ruhana have? All I can see is the OPs insistance that they are guilty of another's crimes, which is frankly absurd.

kunst nugget

mitosis wrote: »

What a weird debate! What criminal past does this Ruhana have? All I can see is the OPs insistance that they are guilty of another's crimes, which is frankly absurd.

What's weird about it? Ruhama are being touted as the biggest charity organisation dealing with prostitution while their trustees are two of the four orders who ran the Magdalene laundries in Ireland, concurrently with the charity for the first seven years of Ruhama's existence. I am kind of shocked that people have no problem with this.

Sonics2k

Min wrote: »

Ruhama do a good job and have been the best at highlighting prostitution in this country.

I agree with the Swedish model where the user of prostitutes is the person who is breaking the law. It has reduced the level of prostitution to very low levels and also has helped stop the trafficking of sex workers into Sweden.
Ruhama support this, I think the only people it really upset are the people who use prostitutes and pimps.

Sorry Min, but if anything the Swedish system isn't working at all. Instead it's driving the entire industry underground and has become extremely dangerous for both the prostitute and the client.

Anyway, as far as I know, in Ireland we basically have the same system in place. Prostitution itself is not illegal, but the propositioning is.

Mr. Loverman

kunst nugget wrote: »

What's weird about it? Ruhama are being touted as the biggest charity organisation dealing with prostitution while their trustees are two of the four orders who ran the Magdalene laundries in Ireland, concurrently with the charity for the first seven years of Ruhama's existence. I am kind of shocked that people have no problem with this.

I refuse to believe any people here think the Magdalene Laundries were acceptable, so is it that they have such strong anti-prostitution feelings they will support anyone who thinks likewise?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend...?

Fuinseog

MadPatrick wrote: »

I reckon the Catholic Church did more damage to Ireland in their time "in charge of everything" that the Brits did in theirs.

Everything them filthy bastards touched with their pedophile fingers went to s hit.
The nuns were just as bad as the brothers, they beat and mentally tortured the girls in the orphanages while the brothers and priests were raping the boys. And they still had the balls to stand above the people and thump their chests and guarantee hell to anyone who even thought about sex. Can you imagine the humiliation the girls in the laundries endured?

I've never visited a prostitute but I believe that any woman can do whatever she wants with her own body.
Sex trafficking is an issue for the police. If I see a priest or nun commenting on an issue I find it difficult to not side against them.

hear hear those Romans should clear off with their soup kitchens and Saint Vincent de Paul. F the poor. i am sure secular ireland will look after the needy in our society. apart from provide an education for the poor what did the christian brothers ever do?