Those nuns who ran the Magdelene Laundries...

homeOwner

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

My interest in Ruhama started years ago. I was interviewing prostitutes for a publication and they claimed they are a) prostitutes because it pays well and b) they have never come across a trafficked prostitute. Around the same time I also came across this in the Irish Independent:

¨We have carried out an in-depth investigation into organised prostitution over the past 18 months and we have found no evidence of exploitation or trafficking. There are no gangs involved and there is little violence.

"The youngest girls appear to be 19 and most are in their 20s and early 30s. We have found no evidence of underage girls working - the pimps don't want to bring that kind of attention on themselves. The girls are working because they want to make money and Dublin is somewhere that they can earn a lot of money," Detective Superintendent McKeown said.

"I was very surprised when we started this investigation to find that a lot of the old myths regarding prostitution have gone out the window. It is a service that is in demand and there is a lot of money about nowadays. To put it simply, there is room for everyone and plenty of work. The pimps know one another and work side by side. They don't want trouble and there are rarely disputes."




That's my story in a nutshell

I watched the Prime Time documentary a few months ago on prostitution in ireland focusing on foreign websites advertising in ireland with a brothel in most major town in the country, synopsis here (It is most likely still available on the RTE website but this was the first link I found that referenced it)
http://www.thejournal.ie/prostitution-programme-showed-the-appalling-abuse-of-women-taoiseach-349720-Feb2012/

It doesnt tally with your detail above. I was absolutely horrified watching it. The girls are shuttled around from town to town weekly by a group of eastern european men and women who run the websites and take the bulk of their earnings and keep them virtual prisoners. The girls can barely speak english, look very, very young and its clear to anyone watching the extensive video footage that they are being exploited in the most awful manner.

You argue that many choose to be prostitutes, and perhaps they did willinging leave their own country thinking they would make alot of money working as a prostitute perhaps thinking it would be a life of exclusive clubs and wealthy men but now find themselves receiving very, very little of the money they earn and being made to have multiple punters per day, stuck in a flat in rural ireland possibly without their passports. I dont think any 16 year old, or 20 year old or 30 year old signs themselves up for that willingly. It is far removed from a so called "high class" prostitute setting her own terms to put herself through college or whatever.

I dont know anything about the organisation you are referring to but if they can help these girls and offer them the choice of getting out of that life then it has to be positive.

Ghost Buster

Fuinseog wrote: »

the catholic brigade conveniently overlook that the Protestants also had homes for unmarried mothers.

I dont know if its being overlooked so much as there doesnt seem to be thousands of complaints from former residents of protestant institutions, a slew of compensation claims being settled by the tax payers as the Protestant Church refuses to settle them, suicides by former residents, costly court reports, TV documentaries, movies, governments collapsing due to clerical abuse scandals, the state and legal system being influenced by protestant churches, cover ups by protestant Bishops and leaders.
But hey!!!!! Just as soon as this happens I'll happily post about it.;)

kunst nugget

Ghost Buster wrote: »

I dont know if its being overlooked so much as there doesnt seem to be thousands of complaints from former residents of protestant institutions, a slew of compensation claims being settled on tax payers as the Protestant Church refuses to settle them, suicides by former residents, costly court reports, TV documentaries, movies, Governments collapsing due to clerical abuse scandals, the state and legal system being influenced by protestant churches, cover ups by protestant Bishops and leaders.
But hey!!!!! Just as soon as this happens I'll happily post about it.;)

Well there's Bethany House as one obvious example.

Mr. Loverman

homeOwner

No one has said working as a prostitute is a life of luxury, but it is dishonest to claim the most decrepit cases reflect the entirety of the industry.

I used to work for a multinational where bullying was part of the culture. If Prime Time made a TV programme about it, would you think all multinationals have a bullying culture? Unlikely, I hope.

I know some people don't want to accept this, but the vast majority of prostitutes are not trafficked nor are they forced against their will.

No doubt they have limited choices, but they are still choosing to work as a prostitute rather than a minimum wage cleaning job. Why? Because they can earn a weeks wage in an hour.

I don't like the current state of prostitution. It needs to be regulated so it is safer and healthier for everyone.

Please read and reflect on this excellent post: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80390679&postcount=145. Ask yourself this: why do so many laws now have the word "Children" in their title?

Ghost Buster

kunst nugget wrote: »

Well there's Bethany House as one obvious example.

Well thats one. To be honest this is not a Protestant V Catholic thing to me . Both beliefs baffle me.
Im not saying that there arent instances of abuse within the protestant church , it just simply isnt on the same scale as their holy wafer worshiping cousins.

Mr. Loverman

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Well thats one. To be honest this is not a Protestant V Catholic thing to me . Both beliefs baffle me.
Im not saying that there arent instances of abuse within the protestant church , it just simply isnt on the same scale as their holy wafer worshiping cousins.

I've always suspected part of the reason for this is that protestant priests can get married, etc.

It's unnatural to have a life without sex.

getz

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Well thats one. To be honest this is not a Protestant V Catholic thing to me . Both beliefs baffle me.
Im not saying that there arent instances of abuse within the protestant church , it just simply isnt on the same scale as their holy wafer worshiping cousins.

there was like the protestant bethany homes for unwed mothers,but the one thing most people forget is that one link ,the irish state who turned a blind eye,it was if they did not care as long as they were not having to pay out to run the homes

homeOwner

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

No one has said working as a prostitute is a life of luxury, but it is dishonest to claim the most decrepit cases reflect the entirety of the industry.

I used to work for a multinational where bullying was part of the culture. If Prime Time made a TV programme about it, would you think all multinationals have a bullying culture? Unlikely, I hope.

I know some people don't want to accept this, but the vast majority of prostitutes are not trafficked nor are they forced against their will.

No doubt they have limited choices, but they are still choosing to work as a prostitute rather than a minimum wage cleaning job. Why? Because they can earn a weeks wage in an hour.

I don't like the current state of prostitution. It needs to be regulated so it is safer and healthier for everyone.

There is a difference between "organised" prostitution and women plying their trade on Fitzwilliam Sq or in a lapdancing club by their own chosing.

The PT program was dealing with organised prostitution and counted in the region of 700 women avaialble at any one time with this particular gang who were being paid something like E20 per day, (i cant recall exactly, but it was a pityful amount of money for servicing multiple clients per day, the pimp took the rest). You have to ask yourself why would they choose to do this rather than a legit job that would earn them much more, even if it was cleaning? It is not believable that one would chose that.

You are repeating the mantra that the majority are not trafficked and perhaps thats right. But I wonder how many, if they came here of their own choice, are being held against their will now that they are here or have not got the means or the passport to leave now that they are controlled by the gang. The video footage of the girls (very young looking) did not paint a picture of people in control of their own agendas.

I dont know how many prostitutes are working in ireland in total, so I dont know if 700 women is a very small minority. You clearly know more about this than I do, but I find it very difficult to believe that there are many of them earning a weeks wage in an hour (and keeping the money themselves). If they are, then fair play to them and good luck. But I just dont believe that is the case.

Mr. Loverman

Prostitutes in brothels earn a lot more than minimum wage. In general, prostitutes split their earnings with the brothel owner. They can earn more money as an independent prostitute but some choose to work in brothels as it is safer.

Of course, I am not saying there are no horror stories, but the vast majority of prostitutes do not live the lives the conservative Catholics would like you to believe.

Ruhama state in one of their slides that it is important the concepts of trafficking and prostitution are not separated. In my opinion this is, at best, dishonest. Trafficking and prostitution are two separate things. Do they overlap every now and then? Sure, but all sorts of things overlap every now and then.

Dyr

Lets wheel the legion of mary out for this campaign, twill be just like the good ould days

homeOwner

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Prostitutes in brothels earn a lot more than minimum wage. In general, prostitutes split their earnings with the brothel owner. They can earn more money as an independent prostitute but some choose to work in brothels as it is safer.

Are you talking about in Ireland? or in general worldwide?

If you are referring only to Ireland can you post some links to back up your points above? I'm interested in reading the detail.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

..... the vast majority of prostitutes do not live the lives the conservative Catholics would like you to believe.

I assume you mean that they are not in the "profession" by cooercion and are not being abused etc.....

BTW, I am not against prostitution where both parties are willing participants. I just dont believe that is the majority of cases, but would like to read more about the stats/research for ireland.

kunst nugget

homeOwner wrote: »

BTW, I am not against prostitution where both parties are willing participants. I just dont believe that is the majority of cases, but would like to read more about the stats/research for ireland.

The problem we have with an organisation like Ruhama, with it's strongly religious bias which feed into its views on sexuality, is that it is hard to get an impartial picture of what is actually happening.

Mr. Loverman

homeOwner wrote: »

Are you talking about in Ireland? or in general worldwide?

If you are referring only to Ireland can you post some links to back up your points above? I'm interested in reading the detail.

I am only talking about Ireland.

It is very hard to provide salary data as brothel keeping is illegal. Basically, I know what I know from talking to prostitutes.

There is a book called "Sex in the City: The Prostitution Racket in Ireland" by Paul Reynolds (probably a little out of date at this stage) which also states the fee is split between the brothel owner and prostitute.

The "independent" prostitutes on escort-ireland.com, etc., display their prices. This will give you a general idea of how much they can earn per hour.

homeOwner wrote: »

I assume you mean that they are not in the "profession" by cooercion and are not being abused etc.....

Ruhama think prostitution is abuse, so they believe all prostitutes are being abused. This is why they support the Swedish model which aims to criminalise the "abuser".

Personally I think if a woman chooses to be a prostitute (even if she has limited choice because she is an illegal immigrant or whatever) and chooses to have sex for money, she is not being abused or forced.

homeOwner

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I am only talking about Ireland.

It is very hard to provide salary data as brothel keeping is illegal. Basically, I know what I know from talking to prostitutes.

There is a book called "Sex in the City: The Prostitution Racket in Ireland" by Paul Reynolds (probably a little out of date at this stage) which also states the fee is split between the brothel owner and prostitute.

The "independent" prostitutes on escort-ireland.com, etc., display their prices. This will give you a general idea of how much they can earn per hour.

Ok to be fair, you based your opinions on talking to prostitutes. How many did you talk to? I am not sure you can make sweeping statements like the vast majority are working of their own choosing etc... based on a few conversations. As you pointed out about working in a multi national...doesnt say all multi nationals are rife with bullying etc....

I am not saying your points are not correct, I just dont see any evidence. I will read the book you linked to for more info but its from 2003, almost 10 years ago. The internet has changed the whole ball game.

I think escort-ireland was the website which was the focus of the PT piece and yes they display prices but you cant honestly believe that they give the girls 50%? Of course they may claim that they do but they house the girls, pay for their food, pay for them to be shuttled around to the next town.....there is no way they are splitting the fee 50/50. Its in the punters interest to believe that the girls are being treated fairly so they dont feel bad about using the service. I remember the african woman in the PT documentary saying she got E20 (or E30, something really pityful) per day for seeing several men and she worked 7 days per week, as that was what she was booked for by the agency running the brothels. There was one girl who worked every day including christmas morning, there was no day that the agency wouldnt accept a booking.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Ruhama think prostitution is abuse, so they believe all prostitutes are being abused. This is why they support the Swedish model which aims to criminalise the "abuser".

As I said I dont know anything about this organisation so cant comment. I will definitely check out their website.

Mr. Loverman

Well I am involved with an NGO which provides support to prostitutes. I have spoken to a lot of prostitutes.

The picture painted by Ruhama is very different to what I have seen and been told.

I am sure there are horror stories. Every industry has its horror stories, especially one which is illegal or at least partially illegal. If Ruhama get their way and push it further underground, it will just get worse. Of course, based on what we know about the history of the people who run Ruhama, one could argue they don't actually care about the welfare of prostitutes; it's the sex for money they have a problem with.

Sleepy

No organisation with ties to the worlds richest organisation should be getting tax payers money.

Seaneh

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

The organisation was created to "help" prostitutes but was later expanded to include "promiscuous" women.

Their name, Magdalene, comes from the reformed prostitute Mary Magdalene.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/25/world/europe/25iht-abuse25.html?_r=4

Mary Magdalene was never a prostitute, she was a woman from a wealthy family, her brother Lazarus of Bethany who was a memeber of the court of Pilate.


There is no biblical mention of Mary being a prostitute, it's absolute nonsense.

Mary Magdalene was not the woman Jesus saved from being stoned.

Seaneh

Sleepy wrote: »

No organisation with ties to the worlds richest organisation should be getting tax payers money.

I didn't realise Berkshire Hathaway were running convents now.

May as well, really, they run everything else.

Mr. Loverman

Seaneh wrote: »

Mary Magdalene was never a prostitute, she was a woman from a wealthy family, her brother Lazarus of Bethany who was a memeber of the court of Pilate.

There is no biblical mention of Mary being a prostitute, it's absolute nonsense.

Mary Magdalene was not the woman Jesus saved from being stoned.

Yes many people have said something similar in this thread.

I am not religious so my knowledge of the bible would be weak.

But the Magdalene Laundries were named after her presumably because most people think she was a prostitute or fallen woman or whatever.

homeOwner

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Well I am involved with an NGO which provides support to prostitutes. I have spoken to a lot of prostitutes.

The picture painted by Ruhama is very different to what I have seen and been told.

Ok but wouldnt the very nature of trafficking or coercion mean that you are very unlikely to see these girls coming to your organisation.

More likely you are seeing the ones who are in some way in control of their choices and have the freedom to seek help.

Just saying.....

Mr. Loverman

homeOwner wrote: »

Ok but wouldnt the very nature of trafficking or coercion mean that you are very unlikely to see these girls coming to your organisation.

More likely you are seeing the ones who are in some way in control of their choices.

Just saying.....

The NGO I am involved with go to the prostitutes rather than wait for them to make contact.

As I have said already, I have no doubt there are some horror stories, but these are the horror stories and are not indicative of the industry as a whole.

If you think about it logically, why would most pimps go through the hassle and risk of kidnapping and enslaving women to work as prostitutes when they can simply employ some of the thousands of women already willing to have sex for money in Ireland, nevermind the millions across Europe and beyond.

Surely by now, if Ruhama were telling anything close to the truth, there would be a significant number of arrests, yet there been hardly any at all.

I know I cannot convince you, but please keep an open mind about Ruhama. Their history, at least, should be a warning to us.

Sleepy

Seaneh wrote: »

I didn't realise Berkshire Hathaway were running convents now.

May as well, really, they run everything else.

I doubt anyone aside from the Pope's inner sanctum have ever seen the RCC's aggregated Balance Sheet but I'd imagine it would dwarf the circa 400bn that Berkshire Hathaway is worth...

Seaneh

Sleepy wrote: »

I doubt anyone aside from the Pope's inner sanctum have ever seen the RCC's aggregated Balance Sheet but I'd imagine it would dwarf the circa 400bn that Berkshire Hathaway is worth...

Maybe if you could sell all of the lands they own, but in realise, the catholic church doesn't have much liquid wealth, especially for an organisation of their size.

Most of the land is run in trust too, so it can never be sold (hospitals, schools etc).

The catholic church isn't actually hoarding mountains of gold and silver like books like DiVinci code would have you believe.

homeOwner

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

If you think about it logically, why would most pimps go through the hassle and risk of kidnapping and enslaving women to work as prostitutes when they can simply employ some of the thousands of women already willing to have sex for money in Ireland, nevermind the millions across Europe and beyond.

Surely by now, if Ruhama were telling anything close to the truth, there would be a significant number of arrests, yet there been hardly any at all.

I can think of loads of reasons:
1. Lots more money if you are taking the bulk of the earnings and making the girls work 7 days a week for E20 per day

2. Access to very young girls/teenages - who are unlikely to be seeking out brothels to work in off their own bat. I would wager that most of the women who are voluntarily working in brothels are much older and possibly with drug or alcohol problems. I presume there is a healthy apetite for young girls or there wouldnt be the horror stories we all know are out there.

3. Access to non english speaking girls who are not going to cause hassle or able to communicate much with the clients. Complete control over the girls who cant leave, are unlikely to be in a position to report your business to the police or draw attention to your operation.

Maybe I am imagining the worst, and it doesnt go on much in Ireland. I really hope you are right and it doesnt.

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

I know I cannot convince you, but please keep an open mind about Ruhama. Their history, at least, should be a warning to us.

I happen to agree with you about Ruhama's history making them unfit to be involved in this area, which I have only learned from reading your post

Mr. Loverman

There's no better way to draw attention to a low profile industry than by doing something stupid like kidnapping and enslaving people. I really find it hard to believe most pimps are that stupid. One or two morons? Maybe, but not the majority...

I have never claimed the industry is perfect, but the message that it is packed full of trafficked sex slaves is nonsense; if Ruhama have so much evidence surely we'd be seeing more arrests.

Anyway, we're going round in circles now.

midlandsmissus

The thing about Mary Magdelene is very interersting.What I have read - and I've done a bit of research on it. By all accounts she was a disciple of Jesus, a favourite of Jesus, and as a result was the target of extreme jealousy from the other disciples. Due to this and the subsequent taking anything remotely female friendly out of the bible by the Catholic church, she became completely unjustly known as a prostitute.The Catholic church did not want any women in power stories in the bible so rewrote what had happened to justify their own means - hence how it also came about that ony men were allowed to have high positions in the church.

Catari Jaguar

Cienciano wrote: »

...and the prostitutes.
I mean, there's nothing illegal or wrong in this country with 2 consenting adults paying for sex,

Technically it's ONE adult paying for sex. And it's not really much consent if you're being coerced into doing it for a fee. If you were truly consenting and WILLING to have sex with the person you would do it for... free. But we don't call sex "free sex". It's how normal, healthy sexual relations generally are.

Nothing wrong with paying for sex? Mind boggling.

getz

midlandsmissus wrote: »

The thing about Mary Magdelene is very interersting.What I have read - and I've done a bit of research on it. By all accounts she was a disciple of Jesus, a favourite of Jesus, and as a result was the target of extreme jealousy from the other disciples. Due to this and the subsequent taking anything remotely female friendly out of the bible by the Catholic church, she became completely unjustly known as a prostitute.The Catholic church did not want any women in power stories in the bible so rewrote what had happened to justify their own means - hence how it also came about that ony men were allowed to have high positions in the church.

you are still only seeing the tip of the iceburg,any simple reserch will tell you that it was the constantines church that edited the womens role out of christanity [read pauls letters] as far as the magdalene laundries ,it was big business,£100,000s went into the vatican bank,incidentaly the vataican state as EU member has to show its wealth,google it you will be shocked

Mr. Loverman

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Technically it's ONE adult paying for sex. And it's not really much consent if you're being coerced into doing it for a fee. If you were truly consenting and WILLING to have sex with the person you would do it for... free. But we don't call sex "free sex". It's how normal, healthy sexual relations generally are.

Nothing wrong with paying for sex? Mind boggling.

The man who cleans the street only does it because he gets paid.

The woman who makes your sandwich only does it because she gets paid.

They may only be cleaning the street and making sandwiches because they get paid to do it, but it is still a choice, albeit a limited one and they may hate their job.

Cienciano

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Technically it's ONE adult paying for sex. And it's not really much consent if you're being coerced into doing it for a fee. If you were truly consenting and WILLING to have sex with the person you would do it for... free. But we don't call sex "free sex". It's how normal, healthy sexual relations generally are.

Nothing wrong with paying for sex? Mind boggling.

If you're forced to do it, you're not consenting. I said consenting. What do you consider "normal healthy sexual relations"? Is bondage ok? Drunken one night stands? Peeing on each other? Just because you have a problem with someone doesn't mean it's wrong. If people want to pay for sex, it's their business. No one works for free unless you listen to bill cullen

The_Thing

The parish priest of London's Soho has said that people are using the sex workers as pawns in a wider debate.

Below is a video of his submission to the House of Commons with regard to changes being proposed to the UK's prostitution laws.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YkV29ssxgM

Jay D

Reading some of the comments here are a joke.

I buy some drugs off my dealer. Garda see us, I've enough for a few joints, My dealer has a good amount on him. I get brought in for posession, if the Garda is generally a clown out to do your head in but the dealer will be arrested and charged with intent to supply. I am likely going to walk away and be told to stay away from that whacky backy, while the said Garda brings it home and gets stoned.

Why should it be any different from the sex industry's point of view. I go to a prositiute, she's selling a service I avail of. Her service is illegal so why am I breaking the law and why should I be the one done for all sorts. Oh she's a woman and she's being forced into it. She'd never do it like on her own initiative, that's clear as day isn't it?

Cop the fúck on people.

mikom

Anagrams of Ruhama....

aah rum
ah arum
ah mura
aha rum
amu rah
arum ah
arum ha
ha arum
ha mura
haar mu
haar um
mu haar
mura ah
mura ha
rah amu
rum aah
rum aha
um haar

Coincidentally these are the sounds that most prozzy punters release before blowing their load.

Ps. Catholic groups.... please keep your snouts out of lawmaking and the running of the country.

Pottler

Religious beliefs+Money=cuntishness. It's a fairly solid equation, seldom deviated from.

Treora

Looking at the twitter and fb accounts of the two campaigns they are roughtly equal. @turnoffRL is externally funded (non-Irish) as a campaign and internally the organisations are desparate for state funding. Thus using the campaign to validate their existance. It looks as if most will be under severe existance threat during the next budget. turnoffthebluelight.ie only needs a few more followers in twitter to be ahead. Unsurprisingly.

Dionysius2

The ex-prostitute on the Late Late Show last night certainly gave some rare insights into the bonking game, did she not ? Bet there are a lot of guys awondering just how much detail she had on them and whether some might have found it's way into her book of life.

popolive

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

The also receive over EUR 700,000 in funding from the government each year.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057220713&page=114


Zero credibility. It's like putting the Nazis in charge of arranging Middle Eastern peace talks...

These hypocrites annoy me.

Chucken

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

For those of you who don't know, the Magdelene Laundries were forced labour camps for prostitutes.

Old thread, I know but...really?