Enterprise sees 3 hour delay

Chrisplayfair

On Tuesday 21st August 2012, the 2050 Dublin Connolly/Belfast Central suffered a 3 hour delay after coming to a halt near Finaghy halt in South Belfast. It was a result after Loco 208 had shutdown.

After many attempts by the driver & fitters, the loco would not start. It was then declared a failure. On top of this, Tennants Vital was on at Balmoral and there were several specials operating on this line on this night in conjunction and as a result of the failure, the down line was blocked with a special & passenger service behind it.

At 0130hrs, Loco 206 arrived to the scene to haul the disgraced set to York Road. Departing here at 0149hrs, we arrived into Belfast Central at 0210hrs!

It should also be noted that 208 had failed on Mon 20th August 2012 at York Road Depot whilst still fouling the mainline. On this night the problem was fuel starvation. This caused delays to several passenger services as a result. It is believed that it was a similar problem that caused to failure near Finaghy on Tues night.

Photos from the failure :
http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/August-2012/24556647_sBDRWS#!i=2040532747&k=rpcq6kh

CaptainFreedom

More fuel for the Mk3 EGV debate

Hungerford

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

At 0130hrs, Loco 206 arrived to the scene to haul the disgraced set to York Road. Departing here at 0149hrs, we arrived into Belfast Central at 0210hrs!

Two questions: why did it take so long for another loco to come and rescue it? Secondly, who cleared a faulty loco for intercity duties when the fault clearly hadn't been fixed?

Chrisplayfair

As it stands the Mk3 Vans are undergoing testing and commissioning. There is a few technical issues but they are being addressed at present.

With regards to 208 being put back into service, the set completed a test run to Mossley West & back during the afternoon and proved to be okay. However, a test run of a return trip of just 10 miles wouldn't say too much. Finally, the reason it took so long for the rescue loco to travel 5 1/2 miles to the failed set, NIR were operating specials in conjunction with a festival near Balmoral. To send a LE out in the middle of that during single line working would have made problems worse and caused delays on other services which includes specials to Coleraine / Carrickfergus & Portadown.

dowlingm

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

As it stands the Mk3 Vans are undergoing testing and commissioning. There is a few technical issues but they are being addressed at present.

Ah sure, it's only been three years since the project began with 7604, no hurry NIR/IE...

Jamie2k9

Since the 15 August the Belfast services has being a shambles. Prety much a failure/major fault everyday with aerage delay of 90 mins. There has being NI class trains operating as a replacement for the past couple of days and would expect the same tomorrow. At least one entreprise set out of action but one of the days I think it was two.

Cork line isn't much better over the last week either.
I was on the 18.30 to Dublin on Monday terminated Limerick J (lot of smoke from loco) and had to wait for 2 hours for the 20.30 to arrive.

Chrisplayfair

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

There has being NI class trains operating as a replacement for the past couple of days and would expect the same tomorrow. At least one entreprise set out of action but one of the days I think it was two.

That is correct Jamkie2k9. Yesterday seen the 0650 & 1235 from Belfast operated by 6 car Class 3000 units due to the failure of 208 on Monday night. Today had the same services operated by a 6 car Class 3000 unit due to last night's failure at Finaghy. However the coaching stock from last night's failure has returned to mainline service with Loco 206 this evening working the 1810 Belfast / Dublin. 208 remains in York Road awaiting attention.

As the time of this writing there is no intention or any plans for any services to be operated by a Railcar tomorrow. All 3 sets are serviceable and fit for mainline revenue services.

dowlingm

anyone hear about progress getting 75mph 29Ks off and 90mph (capable) TPWSed 22Ks on the 0645 ex Newry? :rolleyes:

Chrisplayfair

First I heard of that, however Dundalk drivers are all passed on 22s so no reason it couldn't be done. I understand the 0645 x Newry is 45mph until it reaches the Border and then it avails of the 75mph limits. This is because of the TPWS issue.

Rud

Is this the first time an Enterprise loco in the purple livery has joined up double headed with the green livery of 8208?

Chrisplayfair

I'm not 100 % sure about that. I remember 177 hauling 208 before infact!!!!

I think there was a time in 2009, 208 failed at Central of the 2045 x Dublin and it was hauled over by 206 that night.

Captain Chaos

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

First I heard of that, however Dundalk drivers are all passed on 22s so no reason it couldn't be done. I understand the 0645 x Newry is 45mph until it reaches the Border and then it avails of the 75mph limits. This is because of the TPWS issue.

One would think that IE would take full advantage of the fact that they got TPWS fitted to the first 6 sets of 22s, that they would actually use them on a service that would take full advantage of that fact. Or is it too hard to keep those sets on that link with the way the 22s are rotated around for maintenance.

zagmund

CaptainFreedom wrote: »

More fuel for the Mk3 EGV debate

I see what you did there, very sharp.

Ran out of fuel . . . fuel for the debate.

Good one.

z

Chrisplayfair

Captain Chaos wrote: »

One would think that IE would take full advantage of the fact that they got TPWS fitted to the first 6 sets of 22s, that they would actually use them on a service that would take full advantage of that fact. Or is it too hard to keep those sets on that link with the way the 22s are rotated around for maintenance.

Without getting diagrams out of the file, of the top of my head there is a 0023 Drogheda/Dundalk on weekdays which comes fresh from the depot. This is the continuation of the 2330 from Pearse. That could easily be an ICR which could then run to Newry to following morning for the 0645. Given the fact there are 6 TPWS sets, I personally don't think it would be too hard to keep these 6 on the Connolly side of things.

First of all before any of this happens, A gauging trial needs to be done! Since these arrived in 2007, they still haven't went north of Dundalk!!!

MoeJay

Aren't there any 201s lying around idle....oh wait

Jamie2k9

Not all 201's are allowed to operate in NI, not all fitted with correct equipment.

highlydebased

Using the Enterprise next week, hopefully it'll have had all it's tantrums over by then!

Captain Chaos

highlydebased wrote: »

Using the Enterprise next week, hopefully it'll have had all it's tantrums over by then!

A few loco swaps maybe. 207, 227 and 228 are the stronger of the 9 Enterprise 201s imo. If you see 209 on a set, good luck.:pac:

Chrisplayfair

Captain Chaos wrote: »

A few loco swaps maybe. 207, 227 and 228 are the stronger of the 9 Enterprise 201s imo. If you see 209 on a set, good luck.:pac:

227 hasn't worked the Enterprise since 30th Jan 2012.

209 hasn't worked the Enterprise since late 2010

I think the HEP on 209 is wrecked

Chrisplayfair

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

227 hasn't worked the Enterprise since 30th Jan 2012.

209 hasn't worked the Enterprise since late 2010

I think the HEP on 209 is wrecked

I think 209 is wrecked, full stop. :pac:

CaptainFreedom

15 years on almost and no major solution to the HEP torture of the locos, have good memories of them when they were brand spanking new, locos and then coaches

Chrisplayfair

208 operated light from York Road to Inchicore today departing at 0755hrs. The loco run under it's own power throughout

end of the road

seems to be the HEP causing the problems? why didn't they get generator vans with the de deitrics when they bought them? don't they have dvts? maybe they could have got them equiped with the generators? would have been easier then putting locos under to much stress with what seems to be badly implemented HEP.

dowlingm

end of the road - I think the problem is that since only two platforms at Connolly can take long sets (and I think also on platform 4 that involves blocking 3?) being able to stuff passengers in the DVT/going without an EGV allowed more seats for the same length of train, especially when marshalling the sets as 3x8 rather than 4x7 and operating a consequently reduced timetable.

Ideally the power car for the DDs would be single ended with a HEP generator mounted at the back which would achieve both or the 201s could be replaced with generator sets where the HEP load could be alternated between the engine units. But neither of those scenarios is happening. It's interesting to see that lots of US/Canadian locos are being refitted as prime mover + generator, HEP off the prime mover seems to be much less fashionable these days.

I would marshall the Enterprise sets back into 4 consists with an EGV each plus one 22K and one C4K set detailed to do infill services. Unfortunately there's no money for that either.

Are there any bits which could be swapped - either PP/TPWS one way or prime mover/HEP t'other - between a parked non-PP and 209 to make a "good" HEP/PP unit?

As for the discussion re the 22s, I simply cannot understand why 29Ks are (a) used on the Newry run and (b) to stand in for broken Enterprises. It means a waiver from proper safe operation because of no TPWS on the 29s and also that full track speed cannot be achieved by Enterprise replacement sets (where IE and NIR haven't left it go to the dogs). The 22s commissioning is so nearly complete it allowed the 2800s to go to Limerick, Drogheda Depot is now housing 22s, so what is the impediment to doing clearance trials? Nobody seems to know or if they do they aren't saying.

CaptainFreedom

end of the road wrote: »

seems to be the HEP causing the problems? why didn't they get generator vans with the de deitrics when they bought them? don't they have dvts? maybe they could have got them equiped with the generators? would have been easier then putting locos under to much stress with what seems to be badly implemented HEP.

Sort of, the original plan was for 4 x trains of 7 coaches, hence there being 4 locos originally, 206-209. This was soon changed to 3 x trains of 8 with the spare coaches stored in Belfast, but they used to be used on occasional off peak services as a 4 piece. Id imagine the locos HEP was designed with 7 coaches and not 8 in mind. Coupled with the rather tortuous route at times together with 2/3 return runs per day, this soon brought reliability down

end of the road

dowlingm wrote: »

(and I think also on platform 4 that involves blocking 3?)

oh? how is that?

dowlingm

end of the road wrote: »

oh? how is that?

not 100pc sure, am hoping Losty or someone else knowledgeable will bring more clarity.

Captain Chaos

If you have a long train on platform 3 you can block 2 which is the one the Enterprise uses. You can't have a too long a train in 2 to block 3 as the way the signal is placed, it does not allow for a very long train in 2 that would foul 3.

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

not 100pc sure, am hoping Losty or someone else knowledgeable will bring more clarity.

4 and 5 are lined up for the Sligo/Maynooth line as well as the Belfast line. Platforms 1, 2 and 3 can run onto the branch but in doing so they foul up all 5 lines going north or west bound.

@Captain Freedom, the Enterprise was meant to be run as a limited stopping service serving Dundalk, Newry and Portadown into Great Victoria Street station, it being fitted with servicing points for the trains, 90 minutes being allowed for the trip. However the parish pumps got going and ensured that Drogheda and Lisburn were added, the spare carriages being added to the 3 consists to ensure capacity was there. From here, the sets became both too heavy and too stop start to allow for the 201 class engine to now cope with what was already a high revving services and the engine wear quickly found shape as we well know today.

In addition to all of this, GVS was too short to accommodate the new sets so the services had to be diverted to Central, adding 7 minutes to the trip as well as 3 minutes per stop and 3-5 minutes for acceleration and braking at the additional stations. It's also interesting to note that Irish Rail and NIR were adamant that GVS was unable to cope with the new set up, the NI politico were informed of this and yet they insisted on the changes, which were for the worse.

end of the road

but at the moment the bellfast train does run onto the branch? also trains have to cross by the end of 3 to get into 2 thus if theirs a long train on 3 it can't cross? if a long train is on 2 a train can't use 1? or is it the case that just a simple upgrade to the signalling could allow such movements?

Captain Chaos

2 and 3 are the only platforms that share a common exit point while still in the station limits, the others merge well outside so it's not a problem.


In this photo from 1997 you can see the train in platform 2 is really pushing it while leaving 3 clear. I don't think this would be allowed today. But that was when the Enterprise had up to 10-12 Mk2s in a formation.


In this pic you can see where the Enterprise comes to today with a standard length set. Add in the EGV and you can see some issues may come up.

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

but at the moment the bellfast train does run onto the branch? also trains have to cross by the end of 3 to get into 2 thus if theirs a long train on 3 it can't cross? if a long train is on 2 a train can't use 1? or is it the case that just a simple upgrade to the signalling could allow such movements?

This is the track layout at Connolly.

Losty Dublin

A lot of the issues in Connolly are to be addressed in the current project of signaling renewals in the Dublin area over the coming 2 years. There are other issues at hand, including path capacity in and out of the station which also need to be addressed..

Chrisplayfair

In this pic you can see where the Enterprise comes to today with a standard length set. Add in the EGV and you can see some issues may come up.[/QUOTE]

Platform 2 will be able to accomadate a 7 coached set with EGV + Loco without Platform 3 being affected. The photo above of 207 + 230 shows nothing as it doesn't show where the starting signal is for Platform 2.

Its basically the same as an 8 piece operating which it did for many years.

Captain Chaos

Chrisplayfair wrote: »

Its basically the same as an 8 piece operating which it did for many years.

Speaking of which, one of the Enterprise sets I saw today did have 8. I even did a double take at the 5 standards.

Chrisplayfair

Its been like that from Friday last week. It was put on for a special party travelling (coach reserved for 1650xDublin) and hasn't been taken off since.

kieran4003

GM advised Irish Rail in 1992 against the installation and use of HEP on the 201 Class on reliability and excessive engine wear grounds. Irish Rail unusually did not listen...

I understand solutions are being worked on for the technical issues with the MK3 EGV's, there is every inetntion to use them as soon as possible.

There has been somewhat of a recovery in cross border traffic in recent months, but reliability will have to be improved to sustain the extra numbers. Despite an excellent 24 hour bus service, the Enterprise remains very popular. It is of course an excellent service in general, the comfort, first class offering, catering and staffing far exceeds the Intercity service in the republic.

Losty Dublin

kieran4003 wrote: »

GM advised Irish Rail in 1992 against the installation and use of HEP on the 201 Class on reliability and excessive engine wear grounds. Irish Rail unusually did not listen....

Given that EMD were and are still marketing and supplying loco's with head end power packs fitted for years, I'd be somewhat sceptical if this was the case.

kieran4003

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Given that EMD were and are still marketing and supplying loco's with head end power packs fitted for years, I'd be somewhat sceptical if this was the case.

It was exactly the case. Sure hasnt HEP proved to be exactly as I described?

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Given that EMD were and are still marketing and supplying loco's with head end power packs fitted for years, I'd be somewhat sceptical if this was the case.

While EMD were implementing HEP on other locos, they normally used 16 cylinder engines. The F40PH for example, has a 16-645E3.

I don't know if it is true about EMD recommending against the use of HEP but it has certainly been mentioned a lot over the years.

Losty Dublin

kieran4003 wrote: »

It was exactly the case. Sure hasnt HEP proved to be exactly as I described?

Yes it did happen. However Irish Rail set a tender for an engine that came with an auxiliary generator for train supply and EMD answered the tender. If EMD hadn't confidence in their product being reliable then they shouldn't have answered the tender.

CIE

Karsini wrote: »

While EMD were implementing HEP on other locos, they normally used 16 cylinder engines. The F40PH for example, has a 16-645E3.

I don't know if it is true about EMD recommending against the use of HEP but it has certainly been mentioned a lot over the years

EMD never does recommend against HEP; they've been doing it for ages, even with 12-cylinder locomotives. However, with most EMD engines nowadays, the HEP generator is run on an auxilliary "donkey engine" (US "pony motor") rather than off the crankshaft of the "prime mover" (main diesel engine); the original F40PH (and the Co-Co F40C that came before it) due to having 3,000 horsepower out of a 16-cylinder 645 engine had to run the prime mover at 900 RPM at all times to keep the HEP flowing; commuter rail agencies that are still using the F40PH (and some long-distance operators such as VIA Rail Canada) often have rebuilt them with the auxilliary diesel motor for HEP (usually a Caterpillar engine) to cut down on wear and tear. Usually when a "prime mover" has over 3600 horsepower (or a comfortable 4000 horses), HEP generators run off their crankshaft. (The only EMD 12-cylinder engine that had over 4000 horsepower was the four-stroke H-engine.)

The reason why the engine needs to run at full bore is because a variable speed would produce a variable AC field rate, so it has to run at the same speed in order to maintain the required 50Hz or 60Hz (depending on location).

The UK equivalent (ETH) uses 1000V DC and therefore does not require the engine to run at a constant speed.