Irish Rail - 4 Carriage DARTs and rising fares (speculation)

LXFlyer

I have no connection whatsoever with any public transport company as I've posted here many times.

Africa

lxflyer wrote: »

I have no connection whatsoever with any public transport company as I've posted here many times.

I dont post here much, and hadnt seen. But from the way you post, I am surprised you arent to be honest.

end of the road

bikeman1 wrote: »

the weekly joke of an 071 going light engine Drogheda - Connolly on a Friday, then used as a taxi for a Dundalk driver to get home on Saturday after working the Belfast and then going light engine back to Drogheda for Monday.

WDF? tell me more, lucky driver to have a 071 as a taxi home.

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

WDF? tell me more, lucky driver to have a 071 as a taxi home.

Isn't there a 201 used to ferry staff between Heuston and Inchicore?

Losty Dublin

bikeman1 wrote: »

I never said emergency brakes are used to stop a train at a station. But drivers do use the ATP to slow down a train. For example, coming into Malahide some drivers fly in over the points and let the ATP kick in which slows the train down quite severely to 5mph as it is approaching a red. Not very professional in my opinion.

Also you can have emergency brakes put in after failing to acknowledge the ATP causing the DART to come to a stop, before eventually resetting and continuing on.

Drivers don't use ATP to brake a train; it kicks in automatically under certain programmed situations. Even so, should ATP or indeed CAWS need to make a brake application then it it made with the train brake and not an emergency brake as you have inferred.

I don't know what your other points have to do with anything here so best to ignore them.

goingnowhere

As stated above the ATP does not use the emergency brake in normal operation

If a driver fails to acknowledge an ATP downgrade or the ATP views the full service brake as not decelerating the train at a sufficient rate the emergency brake will stop the train, and that does happen every now and again.

LXFlyer

Africa wrote: »

I dont post here much, and hadnt seen. But from the way you post, I am surprised you arent to be honest.

It's an area that I've a great personal interest in, but no professional connection to.

As someone who has been faced with the choice of making cuts myself, I can understand the dilemma facing these businesses. No one likes making cuts of any form, but sometimes frankly there may be no other option.

Where I would have a problem is if people are being left behind. There is a huge difference between having a less than comfortable journey than not being able to make he journey at all. At that point you potentially risk losing far more customers than the cost savings deliver.

bikeman1

Losty Dublin wrote: »

bikeman1 wrote: »

I never said emergency brakes are used to stop a train at a station. But drivers do use the ATP to slow down a train. For example, coming into Malahide some drivers fly in over the points and let the ATP kick in which slows the train down quite severely to 5mph as it is approaching a red. Not very professional in my opinion.

Also you can have emergency brakes put in after failing to acknowledge the ATP causing the DART to come to a stop, before eventually resetting and continuing on.

Drivers don't use ATP to brake a train; it kicks in automatically under certain programmed situations. Even so, should ATP or indeed CAWS need to make a brake application then it it made with the train brake and not an emergency brake as you have inferred.

I don't know what your other points have to do with anything here so best to ignore them.

Well Losty I invite you to travel everyday into Malahide as I do on the DART and say that some drivers don't use ATP to slow the train down, because that's exactly what happens. Not professional.

You don't what my other points refer to? We are talking about IE running 4 car darts to save money. I suggested that they should look at cost savings elsewhere.

The fact is a huge diesel bill is generated by a poor decision to move all maintenance to Portlaoise. Drogheda is not too bad, but there still are a lot of empty workings.

bikeman1

end of the road wrote: »

bikeman1 wrote: »

the weekly joke of an 071 going light engine Drogheda - Connolly on a Friday, then used as a taxi for a Dundalk driver to get home on Saturday after working the Belfast and then going light engine back to Drogheda for Monday.

WDF? tell me more, lucky driver to have a 071 as a taxi home.

The 16:50 Dublin - Belfast / 20:10 Belfast - Dublin is worked by a Dundalk driver on certain days. One of those days is a Saturday. Normally the roster is to travel home on the 22:37 departure from Connolly. However on a Saturday this service doesn't run. The driver would be out of hours if he waited until the 23:37 home as he wouldn't book off until after 01:00. So IE's answer is to use an 071 to get him home, which has to be positioned on a Friday evening from Drogheda. This poor planning must waste some amount of fuel.

It could be resolved by using a Connolly man like happens on some of the days.

Good news one of the 4 car trains during the summer is running as a 6 car this evening. Sense might be prevailing....

Jamie2k9

Good news one of the 4 car trains during the summer is running as a 6 car this evening. Sense might be prevailing....

Or it could just be more people back in work/education as happens every September and the larger trains are used again.......

The fact is a huge diesel bill is generated by a poor decision to move all maintenance to Portlaoise. Drogheda is not too bad, but there still are a lot of empty workings.

Some positives from that also as ICR sets based in Cork, Limierick etc only have to travel to Portlaoise and not to Dublin for maintance. If a train is in difficulty then maintance can travel to it easier as the location is very central have had a few call outs to Athy/Carlow/Limerick J. Lots of sets due for maintance operate as passenger services ie. 18.05 and 18.40 in evenings and some morning services also. All maintenance is not carried out in Portlaoise and many services start in Portlaoise in mornings so all in all the fuel bill wouldn't be overly large as many are scheduled services.

n97 mini

bikeman1 wrote: »

This poor planning must waste some amount of fuel.

There was an 071 on the docks that was left running 24/7, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I doubt very much if there aren't other locos around the place also left running 24/7.

Victor

schemingbohemia wrote: »

The fact that you think you "should" get a seat is idiotic

You might tone down this comment.

Moderator

end of the road

to be honest the argument of demand at peak times being lower is redundant as in the summer the demand at peak times doesn't decrease that much. the colleges schools and some businesses are closed but people still are traveling to and from the beach or where-ever
having trains from places like cork limerick waterford and tralee traveling to port laoise for maintenence makes sense as drogheda would be to far. having trains from rosslare and other services operating out of connolly traveling to drogheda makes sense as port laoise would be to far.

Losty Dublin

bikeman1 wrote: »

Well Losty I invite you to travel everyday into Malahide as I do on the DART and say that some drivers don't use ATP to slow the train down, because that's exactly what happens. Not professional..

For the last time, ATP applies the brake itself under certain circumstances. Drivers are not using it at a braking tool in spite of what you think.

Cookie_Monster

lxflyer wrote: »

As I posted long ago in this thread, my understanding is that this is an energy cost saving measure. I assume the savings must be fairly large to make it worthwhile.

it would want to be alright to offset all the lost revenue from pissed off customers who won't use the DART anymore

People do need to realise that the transport companies are facing serious funding issues with fuel costs rising and subsidies falling. The shortfalls need to be made up somewhere.

And like most businesses wages are the biggest cost in IE, start there; or procurement, or capex on stupid things or irrelevant wifi and other nonsense or useless services down west etc. cutting capacity by up to 50% on their busiest routes is hardly the answer

Full trains are not dangerous - yes they might be less comfortable, but I fail to see anything dangerous. And yes I have commuted on full standing buses and trains and know exactly what it's like.

The only point I'd make on this is the report of the odd fainting due to heat and lack of air from crowding on DARTs, you hear about it from time to time on here or the news.

Expecting a guaranteed seat in rush hour is living in cloud cuckoo land.

not on most IE routes it's not these days

monument

Africa wrote: »

...this is about the 4 train carriages being dangerous...

If it is dangerous report it to the Railway Safety Commission. Otherwise you seem to be hyping the danger for your cause.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish Rail are well aware of the dangers and well able to report it themselves!

Apparent or alleged offenders generally don't report them self to the police or a safety authority.

If you think something is a danger to passengers then it's up to you to report it. That's how the system works. If you're bothered coming on here claiming something is a danger then why not also contact the RSC with your concerns?

Africa wrote: »

Lets put it this way; I was in Netherlands a couple of weeks ago. I flew to Amsterdam, and had to make 2 connections as I was going to a rural part of Netherlands. Longest I had to wait was 3 minutes between my 3 trains, every passenger got a seat, and it had enough carriages.

You can't compare intercity / regional rail where people do generally get a seat to the suburban service where people are expected to stand.

It's also highly unrealistic to expect Ireland to be on par with the Netherlands given:

• One has and continues to invest in rail, while the other as neglected its railways even in boom times,
  
• One has highly planned towns and cities which are generally planned around railways, and the other country is planned around roads

Africa wrote: »

Now for my question, since you wanted to know about me; do you work for IE, or are you a government member?

You were not asking me, but my answer is: No.

Africa wrote: »

pointless construction or improvement jobs,

Such as?

Most people in the Netherlands don't go around calling rail investment pointless.

Africa wrote: »

pointless advertising schemes

Such as?

LEIN

Only seen 6 and 8 car DART's this morning.

CIE

DD9090 wrote: »

Only seen 6 and 8 car DART's this morning.

Pressure's on, eh?

Wait until the need arises for ten-car DARTs. Will they close the railways on weekends again, to lengthen the platforms?

Wote

CIE wrote: »

DD9090 wrote: »

Only seen 6 and 8 car DART's this morning.

Pressure's on, eh?

Wait until the need arises for ten-car DARTs. Will they close the railways on weekends again, to lengthen the platforms?

It's not always necessary to have a full Weekend possession to do that. We installed modular platforms on the Thameslink line which necessitated overnight possessions in stages over a number of overnights when the Midland Mainline was being lightly used.

bk

CIE wrote: »

Wait until the need arises for ten-car DARTs. Will they close the railways on weekends again, to lengthen the platforms?

I hope they will go the opposite direction, shorter, but more frequent DARTS.

CIE

bk wrote: »

I hope they will go the opposite direction, shorter, but more frequent DARTS.

That's more labour-intensive. And it also leaves platforms crowded. Puts a huge dent in average speeds, as well as increases interference with intercity and medium-hop commuter rail.

Cookie_Monster

CIE wrote: »

That's more labour-intensive.

true but since they're cutting loads of the running on many routes there'll be a surplus of drivers anyway.

And it also leaves platforms crowded.

not really, less time for crowds to build up so the lower capacity per train is offset and more by the increased frequency. 8 carriages every 15 mins v say 4 carraiges every 5

Puts a huge dent in average speeds,

how? if anything means trains will be stopped slightly shorter at each stop I would have though, increasing average speed?

as well as increases interference with intercity and medium-hop commuter rail.

again there'll be less of these with the cuts and DART really should have priority anyway since the numbers using it is much greater


won't happen though because the capacity of the loop bridge and connolly area is dismally low.

bk

Like Cookie_Monster said, this is what mass transit is supposed to be like, quick, frequent service. Like Luas, London Underground or pretty much any other Metro in the world.

This is how DART should be, not the current, terribly infrequent service.

Yes the downside of this is that it requires more drivers. But IMO it is a price worth paying to turn the DART into a real mass transit system.

Alternatively you could look at automating the DART and making it driver less.

Africa

Havent seen a 4 carriager in a few days; anyone else?

bikeman1

Africa wrote: »

Havent seen a 4 carriager in a few days; anyone else?

I was on a 4 car last night but that was the 19:30 ex Howth. So no problems as it was off peak.

Good driver as well, didn't pull all the way to the end of the platform.

The Idyll Race

bk wrote: »

Like Cookie_Monster said, this is what mass transit is supposed to be like, quick, frequent service. Like Luas, London Underground or pretty much any other Metro in the world.

This is how DART should be, not the current, terribly infrequent service.

Yes the downside of this is that it requires more drivers. But IMO it is a price worth paying to turn the DART into a real mass transit system.

Alternatively you could look at automating the DART and making it driver less.

I'm with you bk on this, the USP of DART when it was created was the frequency of trains meant that while it was useful to have, you didn't need a timetable to access the service. Fifteen minute head way off peak, five minute on peak. This meant that the bulk of the trains were two-carriage off peak and four on-peak. In the intervening years population increases mean that they do need a minimum four carriage set, but the messing with the infamous GEC Alsthom sets means that Irish Rail do not have as many sets available for service as they should.

A faulty product brought in a shop must be replaced. Irish Rail should have had the Alsthoms put right or replaced, and it is really as simple as that.

Go back to fifteen minute headways off peak and five minute on peak, and timetable the diesel services to fit into that pattern and not disrupt it. Not rocket science, and the management and unions shouldn't be wringing their hands and saying why they can't do it.

dowlingm

My understanding is that another issue with the 8200s was the cost of spares and IE's reluctance to buy enough of same, along with any general deficiency in the platform. A fleet of 10 cars is always going to be expensive to maintain on a per-car basis - depending on MTBF one spare widget might cover 10 cars or 100 cars (based on deploying the part and the leadtime to get a replacement for stock) and speaks to the downside of building a fleet on a tender here and a tender there. As another "type" there is also driver currency to consider, so plainly if there are more than 10 cars spare the 8200s should always be 10 of those rather than complicating rostering.

As for the issue at hand, in theory completion of DASH2 should allow DARTs to run closer together especially over the loop line and thus get more passengers moving with the same number of trains completing runs more quickly and heading back for more. In practice... well, we'll just have to see. The failure to complete DASH2 to date... well it doesn't help that IE pick upgrade times and then Howth businesses force them to abandon the planned date, for example.

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

The failure to complete DASH2 to date... well it doesn't help that IE pick upgrade times and then Howth businesses force them to abandon the planned date, for example.

Oh yes, our old friend Vested Interests and their closely related Pet Politicians. Another thing that any replacement for CIE will have to proof itself against.

zagmund

bikeman1 wrote: »

Africa wrote: »

Havent seen a 4 carriager in a few days; anyone else?

I was on a 4 car last night but that was the 19:30 ex Howth. So no problems as it was off peak.

Good driver as well, didn't pull all the way to the end of the platform.

Was sat around Connolly yesterday evening waiting for the train to Rosslare. A 4 car went north about 1815.

As it happens I was smart and went right to the front of the train so all the people at the 'wrong end of the platform' in Pearse would be at the opposite end. Of course the driver stops half way down the platform and everyone waiting at the 'right end' had to rush down and squeeze on.

*This* is why we need platform announcements.

z

Africa

Yep. Was on a 4 carriager about half 6 myself. This is rush hour time. The train was PACKED by the time we were in Lansdowne coming from blackrock.

Planning to mail that place someone listed here about the dangers of these carriages. Stupid IE.

maggy_thatcher

The 07:25 service from Bray was still a 4-carriage train this morning; I guess they don't think many people want to be in town before 9 or something. It becomes somewhat "friendly" by the time it makes it to GCD!

As was the 17:45 service from Howth yesterday evening - I guess IE think rush hour is over by then!

bikeman1

Just viewed a 4 car LHB set (older Dart) working the 16:45 Howth - Bray. This is crazy stuff to actually take off two cars for a train that leaves town at 17:15 in peak season is utter madness. They really are trying to drive people off the rails!

Chris_5339762

Saw a few DARTs last Sunday and all of them were 8 cars heading into town at around midday....

LXFlyer

Well there was a big match on in Croke Park!

Jamie2k9

There was a lot of 6 and 8 car sets operating this morning.

jimogr

Short 'summer' darts to continue it seems

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1003/breaking49.html

Sponge Bob

Barry Kenny said.

Iarnród Éireann is to maintain its summertime reduction in the size of some peak-hour Dart trains from eight carriages to four for the foreseeable future.

Dart carriages may “feel fuller than they would have” in the past,

May???? How about "we will pack you mugs in like sardines and blame the troika"

Cookie_Monster

nowhere do they actually use any kind of number or get passenger comments... just a few handy percentages here and there... Top notch journalism again

n97 mini

Sponge Bob wrote: »

May???? How about "we will pack you mugs in like sardines and blame the troika"

Welcome to the Maynooth line.

Many is the time I travelled in to work in the guards van, after being hoisted aboard with loads of other customers out of the ditch in Castleknock as not only was the train too short, but the platforms were shorter.

N64

I was on the DART today and during a non peak time they use a 8 car set - when I came home around 6 ish - there was a 4 car set in which everybody was packed liked tinned sardines.

I could manage Irish Rail better - and I have not even completed my leaving cert yet! :rolleyes:

Northern Monkey

Got the 7.30 Malahide dart into town this morning. 4 carriages, stuffed full and heat on full blast :rolleyes: One girl fainted on our carriage with the heat, I'm sure there will be lots more of this happening over the next few months if they persevere with the squash them in like sardines approach.

Infini

I work In IR myself and even I can agree with some people here that the way they have some 4 pieces on during rush hour is kinda daft. Also noticed sometimes that one train can come up as a 4 piece and be packed and the next train behind is a 6/8 piece and half empty sometimes O.o U can never win

bikeman1

Northern Monkey wrote: »

Got the 7.30 Malahide dart into town this morning. 4 carriages, stuffed full and heat on full blast :rolleyes: One girl fainted on our carriage with the heat, I'm sure there will be lots more of this happening over the next few months if they persevere with the squash them in like sardines approach.

That is a disgrace. And someone said on here that it was safe? On an 8 car home now thankfully and had an 8 car in, so avoiding them it seems. Was travelling yesterday. All DARTs were 4 cars and seemed to cope well with the Sunday demand. All nicely full with a few standees the way it should be. It would be better if they used the 8100s at the weekend, to get more bums on seats instead of the massive standing area on other sets.

N64

bikeman1 wrote: »

That is a disgrace. And someone said on here that it was safe? On an 8 car home now thankfully and had an 8 car in, so avoiding them it seems. Was travelling yesterday. All DARTs were 4 cars and seemed to cope well with the Sunday demand. All nicely full with a few standees the way it should be. It would be better if they used the 8100s at the weekend, to get more bums on seats instead of the massive standing area on other sets.

I think its safe myself as many other rapid transit systems suffer the same sort of overcrowding issues and they generally get on fine (although it is undesirable to be in one)

I fully understand why Irish rail have to make these cutbacks but again, running a four car set in the middle of rush hour while there are 8 car trains operating at low use times is just plain and simply moronic.

Is this an issue the way the DART fleet is turned around at the end of the line?

dowlingm

Since IE don't seem to want to use all of their DARTs, might as well sell 'em... (1600mm too! Just needs a transformer swapout for 3kV and whatever they use for signalling etc)
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban-rail/single-view/view/trensurb-seeks-more-emus.html

eigrod

The 5.27pm Tara to Greystones yesterday was 4 carriages. Absolutely scandalous.

Their stock response to numerous complaints on Twitter "We are providing capacity to match demand".

IrishRail Mission statement 2012 : "Prices up, services down, **** the customer."

Cookie_Monster

eigrod wrote: »

Their stock response to numerous complaints on Twitter "We are providing capacity to match demand".

Multiple complaints about lack of capacity and that is the response?, outright lies to customers on the ground who are actually experiencing the problems.
:rolleyes: :mad::mad::mad:
fucking CIE, same old same old....

jimogr

Barry Kenny will be on George Hook this evening. If a good few people email in about this issue it might get some airtime:

Barry Kenny of @IrishRail is my guest tomorrow on the show - questions/queries/complaints to therighthook@newstalk.ie

Infini

dowlingm wrote: »

Since IE don't seem to want to use all of their DARTs, might as well sell 'em... (1600mm too! Just needs a transformer swapout for 3kV and whatever they use for signalling etc)
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban-rail/single-view/view/trensurb-seeks-more-emus.html

Actually thad be stupid expecially considering those Units are not only in good condition but when they EVENTUALLY electrify the maynooth/m3 lines theyre gonna need those units to run on those lines. Or would u prefer 1 train an hour out that way forever now would ya? :P

foggy_lad

Infini2 wrote: »

Actually thad be stupid expecially considering those Units are not only in good condition but when they EVENTUALLY electrify the maynooth/m3 lines theyre gonna need those units to run on those lines. Or would u prefer 1 train an hour out that way forever now would ya? :P

The only electrification out to Maynooth in the foreseeable future will be if someone introduces electric eels into the Canal!