Scottish Football Reconstruction (Mod Note #55)

Eirebear

Pro. F wrote: »

Nobody is "going on" about Rangers being fast tracked. What a moronic post.

Wait a minute "moronic"?
You're the one making assumptions regarding the proposals, citing "not having all the details" as justification for calling someone who provided you with more detail as "silly".

My initial reaction to Lennonist's query has been justified, and explained in the context of Scottish football supporters mistrust of everything related to it's governing body.
Lennonist, by the way, is a Celtic fan therefore fits into that bracket.

So, unless you're going to start paying attention to the details layed out for you, including analysis of the political and social climate regarding Scottish football from those who pay more than a passing glance at the game here, then I would suggest you hold back in the insults as all you're doing is dragging us off topic.

Lennonist

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Just pointing out a fact if I was your auld man you wouldn't be a tic fan

Well there's one thing we can say for sure about the Rangers crisis that has shook the foundations of "the establishment" and their former favourite club, all Scottish football fans are paranoid suspicious about the authorities now:D.

Eirebear

Lennonist wrote: »

Well there's one thing we can say for sure about the Rangers crisis that has shook the foundations of "the establishment" (club), all Scottish football fans are paranoid suspicious about the authorities now:D.

Many of us are expert etymologists too.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Pro. F wrote: »

You were clearly referring to the posts made today questioning how it would affect Rangers.



Lol.

Yes as many posters stated Rangers were to be fast tracked by the SFA well if the information available is true the SFA must have made a mistake surely if it was the case in the summer there plans would not have changed

Pro. F

Eirebear wrote: »

Wait a minute "moronic"?
You're the one making assumptions regarding the proposals, citing "not having all the details" as justification for calling someone who provided you with more detail as "silly".

My initial reaction to Lennonist's query has been justified, and explained in the context of Scottish football supporters mistrust of everything related to it's governing body.
Lennonist, by the way, is a Celtic fan therefore fits into that bracket.

So, unless you're going to start paying attention to the details layed out for you, including analysis of the political and social climate regarding Scottish football from those who pay more than a passing glance at the game here, then I would suggest you hold back in the insults as all you're doing is dragging us off topic.

I didn't make any assumptions about the new proposals. And I didn't cite not having all the details as justification for calling your response to the initial question silly. You are just making shít up now.

The facts are this process has been very long and complicated. Fast tracking Rangers was an issue at one stage. So when the process nears the end anybody asking how it affects Rangers is asking a reasonable question.

Pro. F

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Yes as many posters stated Rangers were to be fast tracked by the SFA well if the information available is true the SFA must have made a mistake surely if it was the case in the summer there plans would not have changed

That is irrelevant to the point I made that you quoted. Nobody was "going on" about Rangers being fast tracked. There was one post with a question in it.

:D:p:o:rolleyes::):mad::(:eek:P:cool::pac::(

Eirebear

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't make any assumptions about the new proposals. And I didn't cite not having all the details as justification for calling your response to the initial question silly. You are just making shít up now.

The facts are this process has been very long and complicated. Fast tracking Rangers was an issue at one stage. So when the process nears the end anybody asking how it affects Rangers is asking a reasonable question.

lol

Lennonist

Eirebear wrote: »

Many of us are expert etymologists too.

You don't get to be paranoid, ye haven't been suffering at the hands of the authorities long enough, ye are johnnycomelatelys in that department;). Sure didn't they do their best to bail ye out, and look at the thanks they get for it:D.

Coillte_Bhoy

Eirebear wrote: »

As for the league system - the Austrians tried it between 85 and 93, the Swiss between 88 and 2000.
Both times it led to a drop in commercial revenue, and a drop in attendances at matches.
It's a failed, out dated system. Much like our governing bodies.

Thats a fairly big assumption to make. Not knowing anything about these leagues there could have been a a myriad of reasons for what you've claimed. Attendances also dropped in Scotland and many other leagues during that time.

Pro. F

Eirebear wrote: »

lol

You had a whambulance about a reasonable question. It is indeed funny.

Eirebear

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Thats a fairly big assumption to make. Not knowing anything about these leagues there could have been a a myriad of reasons for what you've claimed. Attendances also dropped in Scotland and many other leagues during that time.

Well the Swiss League are fairly outspoken on the matter.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/swiss-football-chiefs-slam-scotlands-1524036

As has David Taylor been in the last couple of day, stating that change is needed but we shouldn't need to repeat the mistakes of others, although the BBC have done their best to bury that fact in an awful article.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20926259

Eirebear

Pro. F wrote: »

You had a whambulance about a reasonable question. It is indeed funny.

You still talking?

Personally I'd rather discuss the situation regarding Scottish league reconstruction than justify myself again and again to someone who by their own admission doesn't have a scooby what they're talking about.
Now run along.

markesmith

What about Rangers in the Irish League, i.e. the Northern Irish League?

Pro. F

Eirebear wrote: »

You still talking?

Personally I'd rather discuss the situation regarding Scottish league reconstruction than justify myself again and again to someone who by their own admission doesn't have a scooby what they're talking about.
Now run along.

So why did you respond to me?

Broxi_Bear_Eire

markesmith wrote: »

What about Rangers in the Irish League, i.e. the Northern Irish League?

What you babbling about ?

Eirebear

markesmith wrote: »

What about Rangers in the Irish League, i.e. the Northern Irish League?

huh?

Coillte_Bhoy

Eirebear wrote: »

You still talking?

Personally I'd rather discuss the situation regarding Scottish league reconstruction than justify myself again and again to someone who by their own admission doesn't have a scooby what they're talking about.
Now run along.

In fairness i thought his questions were reasonable. You're way over sensitive on anything /SPl/SFA related these days

Coillte_Bhoy

Eirebear wrote: »

Well the Swiss League are fairly outspoken on the matter.
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/swiss-football-chiefs-slam-scotlands-1524036

As has David Taylor been in the last couple of day, stating that change is needed but we shouldn't need to repeat the mistakes of others, although the BBC have done their best to bury that fact in an awful article.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20926259

ya ok but every country is different and has its own idiosyncracies etc. not saying i support the new system but it looks kind of interesting at least. What exactly is their rationale for introducing it??

markesmith

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

What you babbling about ?

Just get the impression that you, Broxi_Bear_Eire, and EireBear see 'Scottish Football Reconstruction' as the fasttracking of Rangers/Newco/whatever back into the top flight of Scottish football.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

markesmith wrote: »

Just get the impression that you, Broxi_Bear_Eire, and EireBear see 'Scottish Football Reconstruction' as the fasttracking of Rangers/Newco/whatever back into the top flight of Scottish football.

No we don't and have no wish to be fast tracked well I don't EB can speak for himself. I suggest you read my posts again it would've the last thing I wanted.
Still puzzled as to your NI vcomment though be great if you would say what you mean

BhoscaCapall

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

No we don't and have no wish to be fast tracked well I don't EB can speak for himself. I suggest you read my posts again it would've the last thing I wanted.

Out of interest is that because you'd feel a bit embarrassed if the SFA so blatantly gave you a helping hand, or because you don't want to be in the "SPHell" (lol)?

Jelle1880

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

Out of interest is that because you'd feel a bit embarrassed if the SFA so blatantly gave you a helping hand, or because you don't want to be in the "SPHell" (lol)?

Or because it's not the correct way to go about it ?

Nah, can't be it.

markesmith

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

No we don't and have no wish to be fast tracked well I don't EB can speak for himself. I suggest you read my posts again it would've the last thing I wanted.
Still puzzled as to your NI vcomment though be great if you would say what you mean

All due respect to you but reading through your past posts isn't in my plans for the evening. But thanks for the suggestion.

My NI comment? Trolling I guess :cool:

Broxi_Bear_Eire

markesmith wrote: »

All due respect to you but reading through your past posts isn't in my plans for the evening. But thanks for the suggestion.

My NI comment? Trolling I guess :cool:

Well if it makes you happy

Dempsey

Eirebear wrote: »

Which links to my earlier point actually - this system makes it very hard for teams to get promoted given the disrepancies between the upper and lower tiers.

In Switzerland, 16 out of the 48 potential promotions were won, 4 out of the 12 years saw no promotion/relegation at all.
In Austria they fared slightly better, however still less than 50% of potential promotions were won, with 13 out of 28.

We've been complaining for years that our league is stagnating, this won't help imo.

I didnt know those stats but I doubt that the league structure is entirely to blame for that. In Scotland the biggest problem between the lower 6 in the SPL and the SFL1 is the 'financial cliff' that exists between the SPL and SFL which is one of the things on the agenda for changing.

Given that the Austrian League wanted to go 10 clubs and no relegation at one stage I think that highlights a financial gulf beyond the top 10 and the rest of their league. Scottish Football arent automatically doomed to the same failures but I dont think they will be far off without tweaks to the financial distribution.

My issue with the structure is that I dont think its practical given the amount of postponements that happen in Scottish Football in the SPL & SFL1. The Winter break will be destroyed for some clubs and not others because of it and/or delays to the split itself.

The one good thing if this does get voted in, it can be easier to change if its not working compared to the situation that we are currently in.

Badabing

Will SKY/ESPN and BT have a strong voice here over the new structure? Money talks big time in all this

Eirebear

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

ya ok but every country is different and has its own idiosyncracies etc. not saying i support the new system but it looks kind of interesting at least. What exactly is their rationale for introducing it??

yeah, however a system that has been implemented twice (that i know of) and failed twice in countries which could be seen as comparable with Scotland (and that's flattering Scotland these days, outwith Celtic) is hardly inspiring confidence is it?
As for their rationale, as far as I can tell they've never said - because we're just fans and don't actually matter in the grand scheme of things.

Dempsey wrote: »

I didnt know those stats but I doubt that the league structure is entirely to blame for that. In Scotland the biggest problem between the lower 6 in the SPL and the SFL1 is the 'financial cliff' that exists between the SPL and SFL which is one of the things on the agenda for changing.

Given that the Austrian League wanted to go 10 clubs and no relegation at one stage I think that highlights a financial gulf beyond the top 10 and the rest of their league. Scottish Football arent automatically doomed to the same failures but I dont think they will be far off without tweaks to the financial distribution.

My issue with the structure is that I dont think its practical given the amount of postponements that happen in Scottish Football in the SPL & SFL1. The Winter break will be destroyed for some clubs and not others because of it and/or delays to the split itself.

The one good thing if this does get voted in, it can be easier to change if its not working compared to the situation that we are currently in.

All my own research - can you tell i was bored today?

The only good thing to come out of this in my opinion is, as you say, the streamlining of the governing bodies.
Three bodies running the game is ludicrous.

BhoscaCapall

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Or because it's not the correct way to go about it ?

Nah, can't be it.

I wasn't asking you, but your answer comes under the first one since I'll be generous enough to assume that you would be embarrassed if the SFA acted improperly to benefit you.

Not sure why you had to be so difficult there.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

I wasn't asking you, but your answer comes under the first one since I'll be generous enough to assume that you would be embarrassed if the SFA acted improperly to benefit you.

Not sure why you had to be so difficult there.

Its not about being embarrassed. Its about not wanting any help from them as it would suit there little agendas

Jelle1880

This pretty much sums it up:

The National League would be made up of

Rangers
Queens Park
Annan
Elgin
Montrose
Peterhead
Berwick Rangers
Clyde
East Stirling
Stirling Albion
Brechin City
Forfar Athletic
Arbroath
East Fife
Stenhousemuir
Ayr Utd
Stranraer
Albion Rovers

SPL 2 would start with

Dunfermline
Morton
Partick Thistle
Raith Rovers
Falkirk
Livingston
Hamilton
Cowdenbeath
Airdrie Utd
Dumbarton
Queen of the South
Alloa

And the SPL 1 will be made up of the 12 teams in it this season.

If the league standings now were to be the same as after 22 games next season we would have a top 8 group of

Celtic
Inverness
Motherwell
Hibs
Aberdeen
St. Johnstone
Kilmarnock
Dundee Utd

The following 8 teams would then lose all their points and play 14 games against each other for the right to play a minimum 22 games in SPL 1 the following season.

Hearts
St. Mirren
Ross County
Dundee
Dunfermline
Morton
Partick Thistle
Raith Rovers

The following 8 teams will make up the third group of 8, retain their points and play 14 games against each other to avoid relegation to the National League, though it has yet to be made clear how many of these 8 teams will be relegated to the national league at the end of the season, and how many in the national league will replace them in SPL 2 the following season

Falkirk
Livingston
Hamilton
Cowdenbeath
Airdrie Utd
Dumbarton
Queen of the South
Alloa

Now, the problems with all this are many fold

1. The 12 teams who start SPL 2 next season (all of div.1 plus Queen of the South and Alloa) will play for no championship at any time. The top 4 will lose all the points they earned after 22 games, along with the bottom 4 in SPL 1, and will fight it out for the right to play in SPL 1 the following season. Now Celtic are running away with the SPL this season, as are Rangers in Div 3 and Queen of the South in Div. 2, but Dunfermline, Morton and Partick are locked in a 3 way charge for the Div. 1 title. The point is all of these teams are playing for actual league championships. The 12 teams that make up SPL 2 next season and each season thereafter will play for no championship at all and the ironic thing is they are proposing to call it 'The Championship'

2. Falkirk and Livingston, currently mid table in Div. 1 but could yet go on a run that would see them promotion contenders for the top league, would next season find themselves fighting to avoid relegation to the bottom league.

3. Whoever finishes 2nd in Division 3 this season (let's say Queens Park as they're 2nd just now) will play off at the end of this season against whoever finishes 2nd bottom in Division 2 (currently Stranraer). If Queens Park win they will start next season in the bottom tier of Scottish football, which is where they are now. Should Stranraer win they will find themselves..................in the bottom tier of Scottish football as well.

4. The Division 2 play off will be just as meaningless, as the top two will join the ten currently in Div. 1 to play in the Championshipless 'Championship'. Indeed, this could be the last time Partick, Morton and Dunfermline ever get to play for an actual championship, as they'll never be good enough to get near winning SPL 1, but too good to be relegated to the national league, the only other league that has an actual championship to be won

Dempsey

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/20953055

Scottish Football Association chief executive Stewart Regan hopes to convince fans the country does not need a larger top flight.

"I think there's an educational exercise that we need collectively to go through," said Regan.

"We'll be working very closely with [fans group] Supporters Direct in order to make sure that those messages are delivered.

"Fans have spoken about a 16-team league but one of the underlying points made after that is because they'd like to see more games.

"In reality, a 16-team competition delivers less games than the proposal that we're examining at the moment for 12, 12 and 18."

There is this thing called the internet & social media and you can get questions directly from fans and answer to everyone that wants to listen in! You could also discuss all the major concerns that all fans have. :rolleyes:

Fan surveys were done already, they knows what the fans want yet they are ignored! Apparently we all need to be educated! :mad:

Eirebear

I like this tweet from matthew Lindsay (The Herald)

Matthew Lindsay ‏@MattLindsayET
SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster says 12-12-18 failed in Austria due to everyone wanting to "play the two biggest clubs in country". #spl

Umm.....i'm ok with it now, because that was never the case in Scotland, was it?

Eirebear

I know there's plenty Hibee's on here, maybe even one or two Hearts fans - what are their opinions on these proposals?

Dempsey

http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/raith-rovers/209079-turnbull-hutton-backs-reconstruction-plans-as-great-for-sfl-clubs/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Outspoken Raith Rovers chairman Turnbull Hutton has given his backing to new plans for Scottish football.

"I'm optimistic. If I had a list of things I'd like to have changed about Scottish football going forward, then I was never a fan of the financial distribution, the fact we had two bodies running our leagues, the boredom of playing each other four times.

"But if I look at what is being proposed now, there are some interesting possibilities.

"Does the financial picture look a lot brighter now? Absolutely.

"Without quoting numbers, the indicative numbers would make one hell of a difference to a club like ours."

"The dawning reality from the SPL is that the criteria for stadiums are going to have to be tempered with some realism.

"That also makes a big difference. There has been millions wasted on infrastructure for a bankrupt football set-up just to tick a box on the old SPL check-list."

"If Rovers make it into that middle league of eight, you won't have to go to an Airdrie, a Cowdenbeath or a Livingston for a third and fourth time," Hutton said.

"You will have the likes of Hearts, Hibs or Aberdeen possibly coming to Stark's Park. That can only excite fans.

"And if you do get promotion, your team will have done it on merit because they will have taken on SPL teams and succeeded."

"I'm very supportive of the new plans.

"Everyone knows my position. I'm an advocate of protecting full-time Scottish football and in the past I have been one of the voices calling for an SPL2.

"I openly admitted to being one of the five SFL chairmen who voted for Rangers to be admitted to the First Division in the summer because I was looking at the bigger picture; I was looking at a better distribution model and a better governance.

"For me, if you have a better spread of money and better governance, then the number of teams you play isn't as significant as some people think."

Hamilton chairman Les Gray insists that the share of money and governance of the new set-up is more important than the make-up of the leagues.

"I'm very supportive of the new plans.

"Everyone knows my position. I'm an advocate of protecting full-time Scottish football and in the past I have been one of the voices calling for an SPL2.

"I openly admitted to being one of the five SFL chairmen who voted for Rangers to be admitted to the First Division in the summer because I was looking at the bigger picture; I was looking at a better distribution model and a better governance.

"For me, if you have a better spread of money and better governance, then the number of teams you play isn't as significant as some people think."

"Teams winning the SPL receive £3m or £4m, whereas Dunfermline in 12th last season got £800,000. But for winning the First Division, Ross County were handed just £60,000.

"That's too big a gap. The new set-up will change that significantly.

"(SFA chief executive) Stewart Regan has called these plans a new dawn for the game but that's for him to say. But we do need change. Fans are turning away in their droves.

"We need to freshen things up, to make it more exciting. If more promotion and relegation and play-off games do that, then it can't be a bad thing."

I'd agree with Les Gray, epseically over the financial disparity currently exists and somewhat with Turnbull Hutton. For me, the positives do outweigh the negatives, its a pity we dont have a better league model up for discussion.

blahfckingblah

Eirebear wrote: »

I like this tweet from matthew Lindsay (The Herald)

Matthew Lindsay ‏@MattLindsayET
SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster says 12-12-18 failed in Austria due to everyone wanting to "play the two biggest clubs in country". #spl

Umm.....i'm ok with it now, because that was never the case in Scotland, was it?

Ah in fairness it is hard to distinguish the second best team theres a few teams battling out for it

dreamers75

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/rangers/news/green-rangers-should-quit-scotland_63139.html

BhoscaCapall

dreamers75 wrote: »

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/rangers/news/green-rangers-should-quit-scotland_63139.html

lol every football forum (non Celtic) I go on is laughing at him. Again. What a champ :pac:

Broxi_Bear_Eire

dreamers75 wrote: »

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/rangers/news/green-rangers-should-quit-scotland_63139.html

Nothing new in that lets face it if Lawell could get a way out for Celtic he would

Broxi_Bear_Eire

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

lol every football forum (non Celtic) I go on is laughing at him. Again. What a champ :pac:

Why Lawell would like to get out as well no big deal

BhoscaCapall

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Why Lawell would like to get out as well no big deal

It's more him and Traynor's whinging about being "left in the bottom division", ignoring the fact that the number of divisions would be reduced meaning it would take the same number of seasons to reach the top tier. In fact with the number of promotion spots increased to 4 in each division he'd be in with a better shot.

Also the sense of entitlement, ever present at Ibrox, that they deserve to be anywhere else. You are a Division 3 club. I don't see the likes of Annan, Berwick etc having a stroppy.

Anyway we heard this 'threat' when Rangers were trying to bully their way into the SPL, then Div 1, then Div 2... then Div 3. Yawn.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

It's more him and Traynor's whinging about being "left in the bottom division", ignoring the fact that the number of divisions would be reduced meaning it would take the same number of seasons to reach the top tier. In fact with the number of promotion spots increased to 4 in each division he'd be in with a better shot.

Also the sense of entitlement, ever present at Ibrox, that they deserve to be anywhere else. You are a Division 3 club. I don't see the likes of Annan, Berwick etc having a stroppy.

Anyway we heard this 'threat' when Rangers were trying to bully their way into the SPL, then Div 1, then Div 2... then Div 3. Yawn.

Once again you don't know what these clubs are saying. He is giving an opinion. Bullying lol think you will find Rangers were the club that was bullied. Rangers were the club that had to accept an illegal transfer ban so the club could play football. That cannot be denied.
He is only saying that he says this season as a bit of a waste or is he not allowed to have a view now

BhoscaCapall

He's allowed to have a view, and he's allowed to be ridiculed for it.

Dempsey

dreamers75 wrote: »

http://www.sportsmole.co.uk/football/rangers/news/green-rangers-should-quit-scotland_63139.html

I guarantee he'll finish out the fixture list because he wants money! No chance he'll cut off income, sponsors would cancel contracts too. What a numpty!

Maybe he can join up with the new Ukrainian/Russian league!

Broxi_Bear_Eire

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

He's allowed to have a view, and he's allowed to be ridiculed for it.

And to be defended

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Dempsey wrote: »

I guarantee he'll finish out the fixture list because he wants money! No chance he'll cut off income, sponsors would cancel contracts too. What a numpty!

Maybe he can join up with the new Ukrainian/Russian league!

All he has said is he doesn't see the point in carrying on no where does he say he won't be unless I am missing something or maybe your reading more into it than me

Dempsey

"If this does happen what is the point of us finishing the season? Why should we send players out to get broken noses – like Ross Perry last week – or have players getting surgery when no-one can get promoted and no-one can get relegated," he told Rangers TV. "We might as well have a winter break now til next August. I can't see any point in carrying on with meaningless matches.

Obviously talking through his hat because he knows he cant do it without financial penalties and cash flow issues. Not the first time he's talked shíte on behalf of Rangers, not the last!

BhoscaCapall

There'll be a niche in the market for a wee machine that belts out Billy Boys and pelts the opposition fans with coins and lighters. To Dragon's Den!

Jelle1880

BhoscaCapall wrote: »

There'll be a niche in the market for a wee machine that belts out Billy Boys and pelts the opposition fans with coins and lighters. To Dragon's Den!

We know, Celtic want out too.

Broxi_Bear_Eire

Dempsey wrote: »

Obviously talking through his hat because he knows he cant do it without financial penalties and cash flow issues. Not the first time he's talked shíte on behalf of Rangers, not the last!

Really you see that as him saying we aren't playing the rest of the season. You need to have a look at yourself he is giving an opinion on the matter. I can't get over you really thinking he was pulling the plug on playing :pac:

Dempsey

Broxi_Bear_Eire wrote: »

Really you see that as him saying we aren't playing the rest of the season. You need to have a look at yourself he is giving an opinion on the matter. I can't get over you really thinking he was pulling the plug on playing :pac:

I dont think he's really thinking about pulling the plug, he's just talking shíte like he normally does. I'm saying that he couldnt even carry out his idle threat even if he wanted to. I hope the rest of the SFL call him out over it and then we see what shíte he comes up with next.