'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

Monty Burnz

No

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I read this over lunch and it made for depressing reading. Essentially it was a catalogue of bullying and intimidation. At one stage it got so bad that during the 2004 Tour, no English speaking journalist would share a car with Walsh in case word of it got back to Lance and he blacklisted them.

Yeah, but he has a charity and sh1t.

corny

No

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Yeah, but he has a charity and sh1t.

paddy no 11

No

Reassuring to know that 90% of people here at least think he was a doper

RobFowl

No

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Reassuring to know that 90% of people here at least think he was a doper

2 die hard cancer haters though......

Monty Burnz

No

paddy no 11 wrote: »

Reassuring to know that 90% of people here at least think he was a doper

Well, 98% plus, but unfortunately 10% seem to think it was ok for him to cheat. Bizarre really. Presumably they thought it was fine for those 3 Chinese chicks to rob Sonia O'Sullivan of a world championship gold medal too.

petethedrummer

No

LOL - http://www.adverts.ie/bikes/discovery-channel-yellow-jersey/2018384

...the 2nd hand market will be flooded with these.

joker77

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I read this over lunch and it made for depressing reading. Essentially it was a catalogue of bullying and intimidation. At one stage it got so bad that during the 2004 Tour, no English speaking journalist would share a car with Walsh in case word of it got back to Lance and he blacklisted them.

Sadly it doesn't say a lot for the rest of the profession.

hardCopy

No

Great interview with Walsh on Newstalk on Saturday.

Worth a listen for any Lance fans.

I highly recommend reading Jonathan Vaughters recent admission as well, if only to understand the fact that some riders and teams stayed clean and the pressure that was on them to dope.

Even of those who did dope, few could match the level of doping and sophistication of Armstrong's operation, it was never a level playing field.

hardCopy

No

petethedrummer wrote: »

LOL - http://www.adverts.ie/bikes/discovery-channel-yellow-jersey/2018384

...the 2nd hand market will be flooded with these.

I saw a young lad in Livestrong shorts at the Sean Kelly Tour today, disappointing.

kincsem

No

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwPsFz85gGw

Chips Lovell

No

joker77 wrote: »

Sadly it doesn't say a lot for the rest of the profession.

Being a member of the profession myself, I wouldn't be so hasty to judge. Some publications may not be interested in having crusading journalism and instead may insist on just getting good copy about the race and none of the controversial stuff. Unless a journalist is backed up by the people he works for, he's on a hiding to nothing. So you never know really.

The other thing is that it takes real mental toughness to follow the paths Walsh and Kimmage did. The amount of abuse they got over the years was phenomenal and I'm sure there's a lot of guys in the business who couldn't face putting themselves and their families through that.

paddy no 11

No

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well, 98% plus, but unfortunately 10% seem to think it was ok for him to cheat. Bizarre really. Presumably they thought it was fine for those 3 Chinese chicks to rob Sonia O'Sullivan of a world championship gold medal too.

Good point, that might get through to some of them

How do you thank someone for a post?

joker77

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Being a member of the profession myself, I wouldn't be so hasty to judge. Some publications may not be interested in having crusading journalism and instead may insist on just getting good copy about the race and none of the controversial stuff. Unless a journalist is backed up by the people he works for, he's on a hiding to nothing. So you never know really.

The other thing is that it takes real mental toughness to follow the paths Walsh and Kimmage did. The amount of abuse they got over the years was phenomenal and I'm sure there's a lot of guys in the business who couldn't face putting themselves and their families through that.

It's not really about being a crusading journalist, it's a pretty simple decision about integrity, in my opinion. You either chose to keep yours, and not be bullied, or allow the blacklisting to carry on.

The very idea you could get blacklisted for allowing another journalist in your car? C'mon. Surely the profession could have done a lot more to stand up against stuff like that.

Don't think I'm being hasty to judge at all.

FlowerBunny123

Why are people so mad?

As I said on another thread,Sean Kelly is just as bad as Lance.
Both cheats and liers.

Yet Sean Kelly is seen as a hero in this country.

Monty Burnz

No

Nazi123 wrote: »

Why are people so mad?

As I said on another thread,Sean Kelly is just as bad as Lance.
Both cheats and liers.

Yet Sean Kelly is seen as a hero in this country.

When all else fails, try to muddy the water. Start a thread on the evil Kelly if you want. We are talking about a proven cheat, doping ringleader, and bully on this thread. He also has a charity (which seems to spend a lot of money promoting the Armstrong brand).

petethedrummer

No

I don't remember Kelly ever assassinating anyone's character or having having exclusive access to the world's leading doping doctor. Or bullying lesser members of the peloton. Or being a massive a**hat. but maybe he did.

Chips Lovell

No

joker77 wrote: »

It's not really about being a crusading journalist, it's a pretty simple decision about integrity, in my opinion. You either chose to keep yours, and not be bullied, or allow the blacklisting to carry on.

The very idea you could get blacklisted for allowing another journalist in your car? C'mon. Surely the profession could have done a lot more to stand up against stuff like that.

Don't think I'm being hasty to judge at all.

If the profession as a whole stood up to him then, yes, it could have been stopped. But the will wasn't there.

I'm fairly sure the guys involved felt lousy about it. But if you're the guy who gets turfed off the Tour de France beat because you can't get quotes from Lance and his team and the other papers can, you may make that choice. It's not uncommon for people to choose their jobs over integrity when forced into that situation.

And its a widespread problem in the media. Take Holywood interviews for example. Nobody is allowed ask awkward questions and if they do, they don't get invited back. No interviews, no work.

Inquitus

No

Nazi123 wrote: »

Why are people so mad?

As I said on another thread,Sean Kelly is just as bad as Lance.
Both cheats and liers.

Yet Sean Kelly is seen as a hero in this country.

FlowerBunny123

Monty Burnz wrote: »

When all else fails, try to muddy the water. Start a thread on the evil Kelly if you want. We are talking about a proven cheat, doping ringleader, and bully on this thread. He also has a charity (which seems to spend a lot of money promoting the Armstrong brand).

Don't get me wrong,I think Kelly and Armstrong are both scymbags of the highest order.

I just hate the fact Irish people seem to forget Kelly was a liar and a disgusting cheat.

Chips Lovell

No

Drugs are bad, m'kay.

joker77

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If the profession as a whole stood up to him then, yes, it could have been stopped. But the will wasn't there.

I'm fairly sure the guys involved felt lousy about it. But if you're the guy who gets turfed off the Tour de France beat because you can't get quotes from Lance and his team and the other papers can, you may make that choice. It's not uncommon for people to choose their jobs over integrity when forced into that situation.

And its a widespread problem in the media. Take Holywood interviews for example. Nobody is allowed ask awkward questions and if they do, they don't get invited back. No interviews, no work.

They felt lousy about it? Boo hoo for them.

I'd agree that it's not uncommon for people to choose their jobs over integrity, and I'd also agree that it's a widespread problem in the media. That's why I said it doesn't reflect well. Just because it's uncommon and widespread, doesn't in any way make it right.

It's a dirty game I suppose.

FlowerBunny123

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Drugs are bad, m'kay.

So you consider Kelly a disgusting liar and cheat?

Chips Lovell

No

joker77 wrote: »

They felt lousy about it? Boo hoo for them.

I'd agree that it's not uncommon for people to choose their jobs over integrity, and I'd also agree that it's a widespread problem in the media. That's why I said it doesn't reflect well. Just because it's uncommon and widespread, doesn't in any way make it right.

It's a dirty game I suppose.

No, doesn't make it right. I just think it reflects badly on the people who force them to make choices like that rather then the individuals themselves. And by the former I don't just mean Lance and his entourage, but the people who employ those journalists and, in a way, the people who buy papers.

Surinam

No

hardCopy wrote: »

Great interview with Walsh on Newstalk on Saturday.

Hey what programme was that on? - I'm trying to find it on Newstalk's website. Thanks

thebouldwhacker

Yes, but he's still great

Nazi123 wrote: »

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Drugs are bad, m'kay.

So you consider Kelly a disgusting liar and cheat?

Why hide behind a new account?

Chips Lovell

No

Lads and ladies,
Can we leave the modding to the mods please. If you feel someone is trolling or re-regging, please report the post and ignore them rather than bringing it up on thread.

Thank you.

hardCopy

No

Surinam wrote: »

hardCopy wrote: »

Great interview with Walsh on Newstalk on Saturday.

Hey what programme was that on? - I'm trying to find it on Newstalk's website. Thanks

I'm not sure what it was called, pretty sure Ger Gilroy was presenting. The interview started at 3pm and was about half an hour long.

FlowerBunny123

thebouldwhacker wrote: »

Why hide behind a new account?

My other account is a cycling mod.

joker77

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

No, doesn't make it right. I just think it reflects badly on the people who force them to make choices like that rather then the individuals themselves. And by the former I don't just mean Lance and his entourage, but the people who employ those journalists and, in a way, the people who buy papers.

Yes I'd partly agree with that also. He was the poster boy, and that was 'the story'.

But looking at it from another angle - the guys working the 'Tour de France beat' as you put it. Intelligent guys and girls, for the most part. A large number of whom would have had a fair idea about what was going on, especially if they were in cars and knocking about with Walsh. So there's a line there, where it goes from having a lack of integrity, to being complicit. There is a point reached - an awareness of what is going on, and then making their peace with it.

One small point though about your post - 'force them to make choices'. Would you class it as force? There is a choice there, but free will was exercised.

Chips Lovell

No

Nazi123 banned for acting the maggot