'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

MPFG

No

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

I think this reflects what I said about cycling now becoming a sport for the super rich to invest in. Most of these guys were all cycling fanatics as well, I know if I had their kind of money, I would have a cycling team as well.

Sure everything is possible if you only wish hard enough ...Peter Pan (paraphrased)

Mind you if you are going to be an entrepreneur you will need to cut the length of your posts.....writing them must be taking up most of your day already

Colonialboy

Yes, but he's still great

iregk wrote: »

Serious? So Lance Armstrong is personally responsible for the technological advancement in bikes. Wow. Just wow.

Yes Im afraid so, he was partly responsible for driving technological advancements in cycling technology, throughout his early EPO fuelled career, I do mean roadbikes. You probably need to have been folowing cycling along time to know this.
Wasnt the Trek 5100 (?) the first carbon professional road bike used in the TDF that you could buy off the shelf in a regular bike shop an exact 100% replica of the bike as used in the GT.


And I never said what he has done was OK.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

so somehow that trickle of money makes it OK to put the domestics in a situation where they'd be pressured to risk heart failure.... look at the changes made when Graeme Obree was trying to break records.

Im just saying he brought alot of money into the sport I didnt say it was a good thing.
Hat tip to Obree too fair play to him...but werent his advancements consigned to history because the riding position requred was too dangerous for the peloton

FRDMaguire - I didnt read your response, Im assuming it went along the lines of LA was really bad guy and it was all about him and some other points in response to my post regarding stuff I didnt actually say.

chillax people , Im just pointing out some truths as I see it, uncomfortable truths for us ALL to carry. They dont justify any of his or others actions.

petethedrummer

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

Ever wonder why your OCLV carbon bike is so cheap nowadays, I reckon LA drove bike research at a pace never seen before, made it more affordable for everyone.

That Lance Armstrong had time to mastermind his return to cycling and all the trips to Ferrari and insist his bike was to be available to the public is stretching it a bit.

LOl...Look what I found... http://inrng.com/2011/02/how-lance-didnt-change-bicycle-technology/

Colonialboy wrote: »

I dont have graphs or articles , Id guess google does.

On the money issue I need to see graphs and tables.

Colonialboy

Yes, but he's still great

petethedrummer wrote: »

That Lance Armstrong had time to mastermind his return to cycling and all the trips to Ferrari and insist his bike was to be available to the public is stretching it a bit.

LOl...Look what I found... http://inrng.com/2011/02/how-lance-didnt-change-bicycle-technology/



On the money issue I need to see graphs and tables.

I heard about people like you , didnt realise they existed, they believe everything they read on the interweb .

I didnt say LA personally insisted the bike was made avaiable to the public. (what is it with you people is it some form of tourettes, you keep picking holes in posts by basing your response on stuff that was never said) anyways Im just saying that bike happend to be the first that was made available on the high street. Now that you mention it, Im guessing the bike manuf decided that to recoup some of the money it invested in him.

I will show you mine if you show me yours... on the money issue I mean.
If you can show the graphs and tables that show he DIDNT bring money into the sport.

petethedrummer

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

I heard about people like you , didnt realise they existed, they believe everything they read on the interweb .

Relax will ya, I just posted an article with a title that directly contradicted your statement as a relatively unamusing joke. It references an article that supports your original point, which you would have noticed if you had bothered to read it properly. And Lennard Zinn's opinion probably carries more weight than some anonymous INRNG writer. I was doing you a favour.

But wait, I have now read both articles and by your reckoning I believe everything I read.. so I now believe that Lance Armstrong did and didn't advance cycling technology by large amounts. Cop yourself on.

Colonialboy wrote: »

I will show you mine if you show me yours... on the money issue I mean.
If you can show the graphs and tables that show he DIDNT bring money into the sport.

I'm not arguing and have not argued the contrary on that point. I would just like to see some research into it, if it exists. Who is putting words in other people's mouths???

Like I said in my original post on the subject....

petethedrummer wrote: »

I don't have an opinion either way, just wanna know has anyone any links to articles on the subject.

Wibbs

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

Yes Im afraid so, he was partly responsible for driving technological advancements in cycling technology, throughout his early EPO fuelled career, I do mean roadbikes. You probably need to have been folowing cycling along time to know this.

I was. Since the early 80's. Beyond that he certainly increased the exposure of cycling in general, especially in the US which increased the marketplace for "hi tech" bikes(MTB's had ruled the market up to that point), I reckon what effect LA had on actual bike design and development was minimal. Carbon fibre bikes have been around since the 80's in the pro peloton. Our own Sean Kelly rode them on occasion. Aluminium was also around for a good while.

What(very broadly) made them bypass steel among the pros? Generally lighter weight, cheaper and simple availability as the tech improved to mass produce them. Indeed what killed off the steel bike among pros more than anything(and defo killed it in the amateur marketplace) was cost. Al and CF are quicker and easier to build to get similar and better results than steel. A pro level frame in steel is gonna be many many man hours more expensive than a similar frame in CF(or AL) and the latter esp CF will be lighter at the end of it. EG today I can get a pretty decent Chinese built "pro" CF frame for 1500 quid, if I wanted a steel Peg or Zulo or whatever I'm looking down the barrel of triple that figure and more. When the Chinese got on board with cheap labour and manufacturing this accelerated massively. Indeed the timeline of first AL and then CF showing up in numbers in the pro peloton and on the "high street" matches the rise of Chinese manufacturing far more than the rise of LA*.



*I reckon that's why Ti kinda died in the crib, costs didn't come down and at the same time it didn't have the "history" of steel. It just showed up at the wrong time.

Ash.J.Williams

Lance had no positive affect on cycling.

Fr D Maugire

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

I heard about people like you , didnt realise they existed, they believe everything they read on the interweb .

I didnt say LA personally insisted the bike was made avaiable to the public. (what is it with you people is it some form of tourettes, you keep picking holes in posts by basing your response on stuff that was never said) anyways Im just saying that bike happend to be the first that was made available on the high street. Now that you mention it, Im guessing the bike manuf decided that to recoup some of the money it invested in him.

I will show you mine if you show me yours... on the money issue I mean.
If you can show the graphs and tables that show he DIDNT bring money into the sport.

Generally when people post claims, they are at least expected to back then up in some way like a link to an article or stats or something. You do none of this and expect everyone to accept what you say as fact.

As for not reading my post, I actually agreed with some of your post, in particular about the greater visibility Armstrong brought to cycling and the subsequent increase in bike sales and riders wages.

I disagreed with some of it as well, I think you overstated his role in attracting big companies to the sport. For example which companies are you referring to? I also gave a fuller more realistic account for the reason in the decrease in interest of sponsoring cycling teams. It has more to do with the introduction of the ProTour, tough economic conditions and doping scandals than it has to do with Lance.

Colonialboy

Yes, but he's still great

Wibbs wrote: »

I reckon what effect LA had on actual bike design and development was minimal.

During his Comeback 1.0 (after cancer recovery), Lance Armstrong insisted that his sponsors, mechanics and advisors to come up with the best possible equipment for him, which spurred development in high-end road bike equipment from all brands.

During Comeback 1.0; starting at the turn of the millennium, Armstrong was a major driving force behind the rapid adoption of molded carbon fiber bikes. His winning of the Tour on a stock frame in 1999 was unheard of in the postwar era

Armstrong 1.0 also had a profound effect on helmet designs, skinsuit fabrics and designs, and aero’ handlebar, wheel, shoe and pedal designs.

Other Comeback 1.0 tech effects
It was not only stock carbon frames, but prior to the Texan’s ride into Paris in 1999, Shimano also had been shut out of victory in the Tour. Not a superstitious man, Armstrong broke through that psychological barrier just as he did the barrier of the L’Alpe d’Huez stage winner never achieving overall Tour victory, a success he accomplished in both 2001 and 2004.
But his refusal to race on Shimano pedal designs current at the time (SPD and SPD-R), opting instead for an old Look-made Shimano version long since discontinued, resulted in Shimano creating a new pedal, the SPD-SL, which shares many characteristics with Look designs. Similarly, the shape of the ten-speed Shimano STI brake/shift lever relied heavily on Armstrong’s input.
In Armstrong’s first Tour win, he rode the time trials on a Trek-labeled Litespeed Blade. Trek worked with aerodynamics guru and Armstrong confidant John Cobb to come up with a sleek carbon Trek time trial bike, which ultimately became the Equinox 11 OCLV TT frameset raced by the Postal team and available through any Trek dealer

Back in the day, everyone had the same equipment and a level playing field. Now, you might say that is true again, but there has been a massive jump in equipment performance since 1999, much of which can be attributed to the “Armstrong effect” during Comeback 1.0.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/02/news/lance-armstrong-on-twitter-how-lance-changed-bicycle-technology_160248

petethedrummer

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

........snip snip....

http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/02/news/lance-armstrong-on-twitter-how-lance-changed-bicycle-technology_160248

You can thank me when you're apologising for misrepresenting my post.:p

2 Wheels Good

No

Phil Liggett says Lance Armstrong's accusers were motivated by jealousy - link

Flandria

No

He brought money into cycling alright.

Then he kept it.

petethedrummer

No

2 Wheels Good wrote: »

Phil Liggett says Lance Armstrong's accusers were motivated by jealousy - link

I say Phil Liggett's lack of accusations were motivated by money.

Flandria

No

This read gives a good insight into the pace that American cycling developed at in the 80s. Very interesting to see how the Armstrong suspects (Carmicheal, Stapleton et al) quickly got involved when the money started to flow. It's well worth a read...

Fr D Maugire

No

dave2pvd wrote: »

There was a massive trickle down effect. The US Pro circuit was huge right up until the mid-2000s. At one point it seemed like every single Aussie pro ended up here on a domestic team, the likes of Navigators, Jittery Joes, HealthNet, Jelly Belly, Colavita, etc. Irish riders too: do you remember when McCann, Power, DO'L and Scanlon were all in the paid ranks over here? No longer was Asia Tour the biggest outside of Europe - North America was.

Then the economy crashed. The glory days were over, but pro cycling here still had a strong core. Not now: that core has been gutted in the last 6 months.

I mentioned trickle down. It wasn't just pro teams that were getting sponsor dollars. It was amateur also. Both men's and women's teams. Further support came from manufacturers. No one seemed to be paying much for Zipp wheels, Specialized frames, Hincapie kit, Crank Bros components,....those deals are much less sweet now - for economic reasons.

Absolutely agree on that considering I attended both the US PRO Champs in Philly and the San Francisco GP twice during those years. Great events they were but San Fran didn't last long and Philly is not being held this year.

The US pro class seems to go in cycles, there was quite a few teams and decent races in the early 90s(LeMond) but then it went into the doldrums in the late 90s but it definitely improved during the Lance era.

I have always heard that a lot of the guys on the US scene get paid a pittance and are barely scraping by, even in the 'good ol days'. Imagine if they could get a calendar together with the races that have been held over the last decade. California, Utah, Colorado, Gerogia, Missouri, San Francisco etc.

I think the downfall of Amrstong will scupper any chance for cycling to develop further in the US. Sad for US cycling fans but not exaclty the end of the cycling world either.

dave2pvd

No

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Absolutely agree on that considering I attended both the US PRO Champs in Philly and the San Francisco GP twice during those years. Great events they were but San Fran didn't last long and Philly is not being held this year.

The US pro class seems to go in cycles, there was quite a few teams and decent races in the early 90s(LeMond) but then it went into the doldrums in the late 90s but it definitely improved during the Lance era.

I have always heard that a lot of the guys on the US scene get paid a pittance and are barely scraping by, even in the 'good ol days'. Imagine if they could get a calendar together with the races that have been held over the last decade. California, Utah, Colorado, Gerogia, Missouri, San Francisco etc.

I think the downfall of Amrstong will scupper any chance for cycling to develop further in the US. Sad for US cycling fans but not exaclty the end of the cycling world either.

Rumor has it Philly had the sponsors. Armstrong's interview made them abandon ship. Sad. Such an impressive event.

ThisRegard

No

McQuaid replaced on the IOC committee. claims he's too busy to attend from now on, jump before push/politely asked to leave? Can't get link but I read it in the journal.ie.

2 Wheels Good

No

ThisRegard wrote: »

McQuaid replaced on the IOC committee. claims he's too busy to attend from now on, jump before push/politely asked to leave? Can't get link but I read it in the journal.ie.

From Yahoo news

funnights74

No

Flandria wrote: »

But he never won the Tour of Flanders...;)

Or paris - Roubaix, truly great cyclists need to have won a few grand tours and either of these great classics.

corny

No

funnights74 wrote: »

Or paris - Roubaix, truly great cyclists need to have won a few grand tours and either of these great classics.

The days of Grand Tour winning riders winning the cobbled classics are over. Doesn't make them any less 'great'.

Diarmuid

No

corny wrote: »

The days of Grand Tour winning riders winning the cobbled classics are over. Doesn't make them any less 'great'.

Let's see how Sagan's career pans out...

corny

No

Diarmuid wrote: »

Let's see how Sagan's career pans out...

Points jersey is all he'll ever win at the grand tours:p

happytramp

No

corny wrote: »

Points jersey is all he'll ever win at the grand tours:p

They said the same about Kelly for years. That didn't stop him though did it?

hinault

Armstrong continues to lie.

alfalad

No

Armstrong is now being sued for fraud because his books are now fictional! Two guys in California are suing Armstrong and the book publishers.

Colonialboy

Yes, but he's still great

meanwhile in the rest of the sporting world you get fined 500yoyos for making a phone call but only 200 for missing 2 consecutive urine samples.

Arsenal FC Player Fines
Non production of Urine Samples for 2 Consecutive Weeks 200
Phone Calls in the building (texting allowed) 500 etc etc
http://www.balls.ie/american-football/per-mertesacker-is-arsene-wengers-debt-collector/#sthash.noAWwOUK.S4NrxEJL.dpbs

Granted its not apples to apples comparison but like many people have said theres a bigger picture here ...

deandean

C3PO

Colonialboy wrote: »

meanwhile in the rest of the sporting world you get fined 500yoyos for making a phone call but only 200 for missing 2 consecutive urine samples.

Arsenal FC Player Fines
Non production of Urine Samples for 2 Consecutive Weeks 200
Phone Calls in the building (texting allowed) 500 etc etc
http://www.balls.ie/american-football/per-mertesacker-is-arsene-wengers-debt-collector/#sthash.noAWwOUK.S4NrxEJL.dpbs

Granted its not apples to apples comparison but like many people have said theres a bigger picture here ...

Funny how we all see things differently! My reading of this is that Arsenal FC have an internal testing system whereby they analyse their players urine on a weekly basis. This is in a sport where some posters on here claim that doping is rife! I'm not suggesting that football doesn't have an issue with doping but if cycling teams had taken a similar position in the past the sport might not be in the mess it's in now!

ThisRegard

No

C3PO wrote: »

Funny how we all see things differently! My reading of this is that Arsenal FC have an internal testing system whereby they analyse their players urine on a weekly basis. This is in a sport where some posters on here claim that doping is rife! I'm not suggesting that football doesn't have an issue with doping but if cycling teams had taken a similar position in the past the sport might not be in the mess it's in now!

Off the Ball (again) has an interesting discussion on this yesterday evening because the Fuentes case is starting next week. WADA are an interested party as they know the Spanish government have all the evidence as part of Operation Puerto but they only ever released the documents relating to cyclists as they say the case only relates to cycling. So obviously there's accusation of a cover up related to the likes of soccer and tennis players in particular. Guardiola for example failed a test for nandrolone back in 2001 but on appeal was cleared and his suspension and suspended sentence over turned. Jaap Stam also tested positive for the same thing around the same time, he had his suspension reduced to a month on appeal. A team mate of his also tested positive but I don't have enough interest to remember who he was.

It should be an interesting case.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9816922/Spain-accused-of-a-doping-cover-up-as-doctor-implicated-in-cyclings-Operation-Puerto-scandal-goes-on-trial.html

Flandria

No

ThisRegard wrote: »

Off the Ball (again) has an interesting discussion on this yesterday evening because the Fuentes case is starting next week. WADA are an interested party as they know the Spanish government have all the evidence as part of Operation Puerto but they only ever released the documents relating to cyclists as they say the case only relates to cycling. So obviously there's accusation of a cover up related to the likes of soccer and tennis players in particular. Guardiola for example failed a test for nandrolone back in 2001 but on appeal was cleared and his suspension and suspended sentence over turned. Jaap Stam also tested positive for the same thing around the same time, he had his suspension reduced to a month on appeal. A team mate of his also tested positive but I don't have enough interest to remember who he was.

It should be an interesting case.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/9816922/Spain-accused-of-a-doping-cover-up-as-doctor-implicated-in-cyclings-Operation-Puerto-scandal-goes-on-trial.html

Don't forget that Guardiola's team doctor in Italy (who also worked with Frank de Boer) washed up at Camp Nou within a couple of months of Pep's appointment... Didn't Del Moral have links to Barca as well?