'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

Lumen

Cape Clear wrote: »

How much cash has Lance got anyone care to guess?

One. Million. Dollars.



Actually it's $125m, if you believe these sorts of valuations...

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-athletes/olympians/lance-armstrong-net-worth/

mcgratheoin

No

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

I doubt it will happen. If the federal prosecutor thinks he doesn't have enough evidence to get a conviction for doping-related offences (read: convince ten members of a US jury to a standard of "beyond reasonable doubt"), then he doesn't have enough evidence to prove Armstrong was lying about it. It's basically the same stuff.

Ah, but certain aspects will be easier than others to prove in a perjury case. I'm specifically thinking of his association with Michele Ferrari - proving that they worked together post 94 is not enough to convict him of doping/fraud on its own in front of a jury, but if all they're looking for is to prove that he lied about it under oath, that's a different matter.

mcgratheoin

No

Cancellara's quotes

"Johan's name is cited 129 times in the report," ....
"I don't know if I can still work with Johan. We'll see what happens next. I want to know what happened."


:D

corny

No

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Cancellara's quotes

"Johan's name is cited 129 times in the report," ....
"I don't know if I can still work with Johan. We'll see what happens next. I want to know what happened."


:D

Cancellara critical of Bruyneel and Armstrong

Fair play Spartacus.

Clanket

Yes, but he's still great

Has Liggett come out and said anything yet?

Christ, I voted No in the poll only a few weeks ago (as I hadn't a clue about pro cycling and the whole thing smelt like a witch hunt) and now I'm hooked on the drama. I even know their names

Lumen

Clanket wrote: »

Christ, I voted No in the poll only a few weeks ago (as I hadn't a clue about pro cycling and the whole thing smelt like a witch hunt)

As a consequence of your open admission of guilt you have received a reduced penalty: you cannot partake in any helmet threads for the next six months.

Raam

No

Do the shocked and astonished riders all really expect us to believe that they had no idea? How f**king stupid do they think we are? They can take their disingenuity and shove it.

wonderfullife

No

A bit late on the thread here are a few thoughts:

1. It's all well-and-good Armstrong claiming all 26 who testified against him bear a grudge. Even if that weren't ridiculous, the name of George Hincapie is a dagger to the heart. There are literally so much literature in his own book and in media interviews where he describes Hincapie as a brother-like figure.

2. His witch-hunt of our own (as in Irish) Emma O' Reilly is disgusting. That poor girl has had to endure solicitors at her door and so many attempts to discredit her. And for what? Oh yeah, telling the truth.

3. 26 people have risked jail time here. If they are all lying in some monumental conspiracy to nail Armstrong, they all face jail for perjury. Oh wait 26 v 1.....

4. The fact "they were all doping" does not mean Lance was still an excellent rider. If everyone is doping then the equation moves from who has the most skill, talent and ability to who has the most money, best doctors and efficient doping programme.

5. It really bugs me when people relate LiveStrong to cancer research. Bugs me even more that he hides behind it. It is a cancer awareness (& support) charity. Yes i'm sure it does a lot of good things but personally the half billion or so that has gone through it i would have preferred to see invested in research. Yes people need support and awareness, charities like MacMillan do a great job, but it annoys the hell out of me when people say his charity helps beat cancer. It's such a tenuous link to make.

6. If the perjury charges go to court, Lance has 3 choices: 1. strike a deal with prosecutors, enter a no-contest plea and do whatever they want him to do. 2. Plead not guilty and try fight a tidal wave of evidence. 3 plead guilty, 'fess up.

We all know he is too far down the line to plead guilty, so he'll likely plea bargain. Then his fan boys can say he didn't plead guilty but didn't have the energy to fight the claims.

7. Corporate Responsibility - Nike have fcuked this one up big time. BIG TIME. How the hell they can stick by him is beyond my comprehension.

8. Whilst i appreciate the reasoning behind the 6-month bans given by USADA, i still think 2-year bans were appropriate. At the end of the day, all those coming forward have given cycling a platform to really grow from, that should be applauded - but nevertheless they admitted a grand scale of cheating personally.

9. I'm looking forward to Johann Bruyneel going up against USADA. Also i fail to see how he can mount a reasonable defence without involving calling Lance as a witness.

10. Lastly, and most importantly, if Pat McQuaid and the UCI had any fcuking decent bone in their body they would drop the Kimmage case IMMEDIATELY and issue a PUBLIC APOLOGY to the man. It's an absolute disgrace and even more so now the USADA report repeats the same claims. If the UCI does not pursue Tygart and the USADA in a Swiss court how can that be fair?

Flandria

No

Raam wrote: »

Do the shocked and astonished riders all really expect us to believe that they had no idea? How f**king stupid do they think we are? They can take their disingenuity and shove it.

Well at least one who did 'have an idea' is opening up - the Rev. David Millar has called for Verbruggen to resign

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2216751/Lance-Armstrong-doping-revelations-David-Millar-calls-Hein-Verbruggen-resign.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

RobFowl

No

Bruyneel (and his management company) have been fired by RSNT

Good riddance, may he never darken the door of any sport again..

Surinam

No

12 sprocket wrote: »

I seen the interview With Nicolas Roche and it was quite clear that what was meant was that there are some cheats in all walks of life, not that everyone cheats.

English is not his first language, so loosen up a bit and give him credit for having the courage to be interviewed at a very difficult time the honest and fair professional cyclists.

THe same boardsies that are taking umbrage and attacking Nicolas are probably the same ones who are complaining about the pros staying silent.

you can't win with some people!

Wow.

He is perfectly fluent in english - he went to school in Ireland and grew up with his english speaking Dad. I have looked back at the interview and I'm still appalled by it. What I wanted to see was clear, unequivocal statements on how doping is wrong and that things have still got to change. If I had invested my life in this sport I would imagine I would be beyond outraged at what has come out. Something along the lines of Bradley Wiggins interview yesterday would have been appropriate.

Instead, we got nonsense about it all being "in the past" (he said it only happened 10 years ago - then the anchor had to actually correct him about Contador way more recent than that!!) and ah shure everyone cheats blah blah blah (his exact words were "everybody cheats at some stage in their life").

His answers on his Dad and the current board of the UCI were similarly woeful - he said that all of this happened before Pat McQuaid was involved and thus implied he shouldn't be getting any of the flack. Then he actually said that Verbruggen is "out of the picture" until the anchor again had to correct him by pointing out that Vergruggen is still an honorary member of the board.

Now don't get me wrong, I am glad Roche spoke publicly on Prime Time (it's a lot better than the glaring silence from the rest of the top guys) but, for me, the interview was awful and I don't see how anything could have got lost in translation like you imply.

Flandria

No

In fairness, I don't think Nico is the sharpest knife in the drawer. Pathetic as it was I couldn't help but feel a bit sorry for him, he looked and behaved like a rabbit caught in the headlights and really shouldn't have agreed to go on if he wasn't going to say something constructive and definite.

Inquitus

No

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19927300

Prudhomme, there shall be no winner of the 7 tours.

wonderfullife

No

Flandria wrote: »

In fairness, I don't think Nico is the sharpest knife in the drawer. Pathetic as it was I couldn't help but feel a bit sorry for him, he looked and behaved like a rabbit caught in the headlights and really shouldn't have agreed to go on if he wasn't going to say something constructive and definite.

i didn't see the interview but i've always found his columns on the Indo entertaining. To be fair, and as i said haven't seen it, but Nico is not used to mainstream media attention. A lot of sportspeople have extensive training on media relations so they avoid sort of off-the-cuff comments that land them in dubious waters. Maybe he just needs to brush up on that a bit.

ROK ON

No

Inquitus wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19927300

Prudhomme, there shall be no winner of the 7 tours.

Eminently sensible.

steve9859

Undercover Elephant wrote: »

I doubt it will happen. If the federal prosecutor thinks he doesn't have enough evidence to get a conviction for doping-related offences (read: convince ten members of a US jury to a standard of "beyond reasonable doubt"), then he doesn't have enough evidence to prove Armstrong was lying about it. It's basically the same stuff.

Perjury would be easier to prove as it can be relating to anything he lied about under oath, not just the doping. But you are right in that it will take the political will, and I'm not sure that there would be the stomach for it. If the UCI accept the findings (and they really have little choice as they are pretty robust, and the USADA say they have more stuff to release if UCI challenge) and remove Lance's tour wins, there will be strong desire among most people to consign that period to history as soon as possible.

Nevertheless, I am sure Lance is spending a lot of time with his lawyers right now, as it is a real, if relatively remote risk, and would likely result in a good bit of jail time were it to go to court

T-K-O

There is a reason people want to move on and others coming out with crap like 'yeah he was cheating but not me or my dad'

Or I was winning races and not taking drugs, when I took drugs I didnt have any success, give me a break

BS - It's rift within the sport and the cyclists old / current are well aware. All of these guys are as bad as each other.

Cycling is in such a mess it needs something big to clear its name. Armstrong might just do that, but lets take out heads outta the sand.

Chips Lovell

No

Stokes is reporting that Bruyneel has been fired

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13051/Report-Johan-Bruyneel-loses-general-manager-role-with-RadioShack-Nissan.aspx

Undercover Elephant

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Ah, but certain aspects will be easier than others to prove in a perjury case. I'm specifically thinking of his association with Michele Ferrari - proving that they worked together post 94 is not enough to convict him of doping/fraud on its own in front of a jury, but if all they're looking for is to prove that he lied about it under oath, that's a different matter.

That's a fair point.

Course, we don't know for certain what was said to the grand jury, because it is sealed. He may have recanted on that - may even have taken the 5th. But given that the feds in this case have been leakier than a leaky thing, that's a little unlikely.

What I probably should have said is that they didn't think they'd get a conviction, which is subtly different from not having enough evidence to get a conviction. If you catch my drift.

MPFG

No

wonderfullife wrote: »

i didn't see the interview but i've always found his columns on the Indo entertaining. To be fair, and as i said haven't seen it, but Nico is not used to mainstream media attention. A lot of sportspeople have extensive training on media relations so they avoid sort of off-the-cuff comments that land them in dubious waters. Maybe he just needs to brush up on that a bit.

I agree - Nico is not a journalist and most Irish people quizzed in that fast fire manner would find it difficult to come across in a coherent manner..

He is an intelligent young man but anyone who read his Bio will know he spent less than 2 years in school in Ireland and seemed to go to alot of different schools as his parents split up and got back together. His first language is French and he speaks Italian and a little Spanish

Of course if interviews aren't his strong point and he is not media savvy one would ask the question why he put himself forward in the first place

This probably shows a naivety and an willingness to participate...which in fairness is to his credit...

I know he SEEMED to brush the doping issue under the carpet but the point he made was really in defnece of cycling as a whole in comparison to other walks of life ...which is fair enough especially when at present it seems so corrupt to everyone especially those outside the sport

I am glad he is the way he is rather than some slick media type who always 'says the right thing'.. ( he did threaten to kill Gadret in print and throttle Bennati....not anything you'd see the more cautious say)
Ther is no doubt from his other interviews/columns he is anti doping but he like many are in a difficult position when their livelihood is dependent on so many past transgressors

The villians of this piece are Pharmastrong, other dopers and the managers and authorities that allowed this culture to prevail

Chips Lovell

No

Brian Smith: "I told Lance I'd never take drugs... two weeks later I was sacked"

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2216492/Lance-Armstrong-latest-Brian-Smith-told-cyclist-hed-drugs-sacked.html

MPFG

No

Oh dear..this just reported about Roman Kreuziger who is on his way to Saxo/Tinkoff with Nico

"According to the recent USADA dossier though, Bjarne Riis should be happy he didn’t sign Kreuziger in the past. In his witness statement, Leonardo Bertagnolli claims that most of the Liquigas team (that he was a part of in 2007) was using the doping doctor Michele Ferrari. Bertagnolli names Roman Kreuziger by name in his statement plus Enrico Gasparatto who also attended Roman Kreuziger’s wedding last week".

High Nellie

MPFG wrote: »

I agree - Nico is not a journalist and most Irish people quizzed in that fast fire manner would find it difficult to come across in a coherent manner..

He is an intelligent young man but anyone who read his Bio will know he spent less than 2 years in school in Ireland and seemed to go to alot of different schools as his parents split up and got back together. His first language is French and he speaks Italian and a little Spanish

Of course if interviews aren't his strong point and he is not media savvy one would ask the question why he put himself forward in the first place

This probably shows a naivety and an willingness to participate...which in fairness is to his credit...

I know he SEEMED to brush the doping issue under the carpet but the point he made was really in defnece of cycling as a whole in comparison to other walks of life ...which is fair enough especially when at present it seems so corrupt to everyone especially those outside the sport

I am glad he is the way he is rather than some slick media type who always 'says the right thing'.. ( he did threathen to kill Gadret in print and throttle Bennati....not anything you'd see the more causious say)
Ther is no doubt from his other interviews/columns he is anti doping but he like many are in a difficult position when their livelihood is dependent on so many past trangressors

The villians of this piece are Pharmastrong, other dopers and the mangers and authorities that allowed this culture to prevail

Whatever way you look at it, one of his main roles in his new team will be to support Contador who was a doper very recently. I find that hard to stomach.

MPFG

No

High Nellie wrote: »

Whatever way you look at it, one of his main roles in his new team will be to support Contador who was a doper very recently. I find that hard to stomach.

Maybe but what is the alternative ......Ag2R Mondiale has just had someone tested positive for EPO at Beijing ?

RadioShackNissaTrek (or whatever they are called) ??? Frank schleck
Astana ??? Vino controlled
Garmin ??? a who's who of past dopers
Movistar ??? Valverde
Liquigas (or whatever they are called)???? Basso

it goes on and on.....Riis has promised a non doping team and AC was not with him when he tested positive....
Must hope for the best

MPFG

No

For those doubting Nico .....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/nicolas-roche-if-you-dope-dont-blame-anyone-else-its-your-choice-admit-it-3257272.html

RobFowl

No

MPFG wrote: »

RadioShackNissaTrek (or whatever they are called) ??? Frank schleck

Allegation floating around (L'equipe among others) that Frank was deliberately spiked by a certain Belgain ex manager to stop him jumping ship......
(Similar allegations that the same was done to AC)
Twittersphere abuzz with this and who is ultimately behind it....


Edit heres a link to back up the above...
http://www.wort.lu/en/view/french-newspaper-raises-doping-allegations-against-bruyneel-50780057e4b0069dd6579285?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

and here
http://thegaviafiles.tumblr.com/post/33378795535/the-bertagnolli-testimony-a-look-into-ferraris-world
https://twitter.com/dimspace

BryanL

MPFG wrote: »

For those doubting Nico .....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/nicolas-roche-if-you-dope-dont-blame-anyone-else-its-your-choice-admit-it-3257272.html

That's a good read a nice response to hear. Beats the " I didn't hear or see anything"

T-K-O

I like Nico but his articles always read like ...poor me.

fat bloke

No

Cracking' paragraph from Nico. Fair play to him, it can't be said any plainer or straighter than that:

"Helping anti-doping is saying. 'Okay I doped. I got it from this doctor. These are the riders that I met in the waiting room. This is how it's done. These are the new products that are in the peloton that are not yet detectable. These are the products that we use to mask the ones that are detectable. This product does this, this product does that. This is how we beat the test.' That's helping anti-doping.

dastardly00

No

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Stokes is reporting that Bruyneel has been fired

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13051/Report-Johan-Bruyneel-loses-general-manager-role-with-RadioShack-Nissan.aspx

It's now confirmed.

“Acting in mutual agreement, on October 12 Leopard SA and Johan Bruyneel decided to end their collaboration. From this day on, Johan Bruyneel will no longer act in the position of General Manager of cycling team Radioshack Nissan Trek”.

“The Reasoned Decision published by the USADA included a number of testimonies as a result of their investigation. In light of these testimonies, both parties feel it is necessary to make this decision since Johan Bruyneel can no longer direct the team in an efficient and comfortable way. His departure is desirable to ensure the serenity and cohesiveness within the team.”