'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

Morrisseeee

No

Mmmmmmmm very interesting news !

wonderfullife

No

petethedrummer wrote: »

Lordy! The SKINS chairman has taken a firm stance.
http://www.skins.net/en-AU/index.aspx

Trojan wrote: »

Finally some sensible commentary from people involved in the industry. Kudos to that man. What do they sell, I'll have some!

I wonder if they do eyewear...

LOL

"If they don't institute legal proceedings soon to retrieve their money plus some then I'll change my name to Shirley, put a flower in my hair and start wearing skirts. There are no doubt many others"

Oryx

No

I await McQuaids statement with bated breath. Though maybe he is doing a quick rewrite after the Rabo statement.

mcgratheoin

No

AstraMonti wrote: »

He wasn't a hero at all. He is/was just a loaded with drugs bully that pushed his way to the top. He has nothing that you should admire.

Harsh Astra. Just because it's true doesn't mean that people didn't admire him (in the past) and find his (fake) story inspiring and comforting. It's like there are a lot of people out there who have just found out that the big fat man in red won't be coming around this Christmas. The reality of his existence doesn't diminish the excitement that people felt when they truly believed, in fact it increases the gut-wrenching disappointment that they invested so much emotion in a fairy-tale. There's a sense of personal betrayal, made even more acute because the believers were so invested in the myth that they failed (or wilfully ignored) all the warning signs.

For most of us who follow cycling, there has been a relatively gradual path to the downfall of Lance. From L.A. Confidentiel on, increasing numbers of questions have been raised and inadequately answered. But for those who believed the spin all along, this has all landed on them like a ton of bricks.

wonderfullife

No

Oryx wrote: »

I await McQuaids statement with bated breath. Though maybe he is doing a quick rewrite after the Rabo statement.

The old boys club at the UCI is crumbling surely. The weight of momentum with sponsors pulling away from Lance, Rabo leaving the sport etc surely there is only one logical step from the UCI today....

Accept USADA's report. Launch an internal investigation. Provisionally suspend Verbruggen from his role as honorary President pending outcome of internal probe.

Seriously, i know it's unlikely but if the UCI take USADA to the Court of Arbitration for Sport they all deserve to be dumped in a black sack and beaten with sticks for stupidity.

mcgratheoin

No

wonderfullife wrote: »

Seriously, i know it's unlikely but if the UCI take USADA to the Court of Arbitration for Sport they all deserve to be dumped in a black sack and beaten with sticks for stupidity.

I hope they do tbh. With Rabobank pulling out and that wonderful response from Skins, the edifice of the UCI is tottering on the brink. The problem is that it's still salvageable if they do all the right things, but what I want to see is the whole thing crashing down around McQuaid and Verbruggen. If they persist in suing Kimmage, take USADA to the CAS and Bruyneel shows up for his arbitration hearing, then the rest of the big sponsors may think twice about remaining involved in the sport as it currently exists. A mass exodus of big names would force serious change and may even lead to the UCI appointing a genuinely independent third party to run their drug testing.

morana

No

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Harsh Astra. Just because it's true doesn't mean that people didn't admire him (in the past) and find his (fake) story inspiring and comforting. It's like there are a lot of people out there who have just found out that the big fat man in red won't be coming around this Christmas. The reality of his existence doesn't diminish the excitement that people felt when they truly believed, in fact it increases the gut-wrenching disappointment that they invested so much emotion in a fairy-tale. There's a sense of personal betrayal, made even more acute because the believers were so invested in the myth that they failed (or wilfully ignored) all the warning signs.

For most of us who follow cycling, there has been a relatively gradual path to the downfall of Lance. From L.A. Confidentiel on, increasing numbers of questions have been raised and inadequately answered. But for those who believed the spin all along, this has all landed on them like a ton of bricks.

we have loads of heroes in cycling. I will give you Mark rohan for a start!

wonderfullife

No

I have no real sympathy for Lance - but his whole life is crumbling around him. It's so much worse in life when a self-inflicted mistake leads to your own ruin. On a human level, as Tyler Hamilton said, the best thing he can do now is to stop fighting and believing in his own lies, come clean for his own sanity. It's a long life to maintain those sort of lies. He could do it until now but the horse has bolted on this one and it's too late to close the stable doors. For his own sake and anybody he may care about in his family, confess, strike deals with prosecutors, avoid jail time, promote anti-doping etc

mcgratheoin

No

morana wrote: »

we have loads of heroes in cycling. I will give you Mark rohan for a start!

Completely agree, (as a Waterford man) I'd point towards Ciaran Power as well - all I'm saying is that I understand why some people are gutted that the whole Lance story is a fake.

brandon_flowers

No

Rabobank pulling out of cycling highlights the gravity of the situation. They remained during the Rasmussen affair and also there were big suspicions about the teams anti-doping policy in the 00's.

Now they are pulling out when it has nothing to do with them essentially. If other sponsors follow then cycling will be a poor sport for a few years.

I think McQuaid will resign today, don't know why but he just might be able to sneak out of the limelight this way.

allybhoy

No

petethedrummer wrote: »

Lordy! The SKINS chairman has taken a firm stance.
http://www.skins.net/en-AU/index.aspx

Even though I have a feeling it may be a publicity stunt it's a great letter, this quote is a personal favourite

Evasion and delay is not only unsatisfactory, it is morally reprehensible.

TheBlaaMan

No

wonderfullife wrote: »

I have no real sympathy for Lance - but his whole life is crumbling around him. It's so much worse in life when a self-inflicted mistake leads to your own ruin. On a human level, as Tyler Hamilton said, the best thing he can do now is to stop fighting and believing in his own lies, come clean for his own sanity. It's a long life to maintain those sort of lies. He could do it until now but the horse has bolted on this one and it's too late to close the stable doors. For his own sake and anybody he may care about in his family, confess, strike deals with prosecutors, avoid jail time, promote anti-doping etc

:mad:
I'm glad his life is crumbling around him.........I sincerely hope he does jail time for perjury. I have less than zero sympathy for him. There is nothing too bad that could happen to him at this stage for all the trouble that he has brought on many, many people inside and outside the sport. And all under the pretense that his victories were miraculous after his recovery from cancer. He is a disgusting human being. Simple.

Dont feel sorry for him, he has shown himself to be completely unworthy of sympathy.

paddyh117

No

morana wrote: »

it just puts into perspective all the gob****e pros who trot out the same line " its all in the past, not relevenat no" well guess what it is your going to lose your jobs and your chance to condem in strongest terms has passed.

On this note, is anyone else sick of David Millar's attitude?? - "it's a different sport now than it was 5 years ago"......eh hello! Contador wasn't 5 years ago!

Frankly I can't stand him and his holier than thou attitude - if he wasn't caught and banned he'd be the same as the rest of the dopers!

Must admit, I haven't read his book yet, so maybe I’m being harsh - rant over

mcgratheoin

No

paddyh117 wrote: »

On this note, is anyone else sick of David Millar's attitude?? -

David "(Landis) is a liar and a cheat and he has nothing left in cycling so he just wants to burn the house down" Millar?

Surely not....

Harrybelafonte

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Harsh Astra. Just because it's true doesn't mean that people didn't admire him (in the past) and find his (fake) story inspiring and comforting. It's like there are a lot of people out there who have just found out that the big fat man in red won't be coming around this Christmas. The reality of his existence doesn't diminish the excitement that people felt when they truly believed, in fact it increases the gut-wrenching disappointment that they invested so much emotion in a fairy-tale. There's a sense of personal betrayal, made even more acute because the believers were so invested in the myth that they failed (or wilfully ignored) all the warning signs.

For most of us who follow cycling, there has been a relatively gradual path to the downfall of Lance. From L.A. Confidentiel on, increasing numbers of questions have been raised and inadequately answered. But for those who believed the spin all along, this has all landed on them like a ton of bricks.

Seriously? Comparing an honest LA to Santa Claus is spot on. We're adults, not seven year old children. I'll be telling my brat after this Christmas that the fat man doesn't exist, I'll lose plenty of respect for him if he turns a blind eye to the evidence and he's eight. Anyone who believed in LA, ever, was a fool, a fool who hepled perpetuate the myth and give the guy more moral support and allow his ego to work overtime. I am reminded of plenty of a certain religion doing the same thing for the last 50 years. LA a hero, seriously?

Kill your idols.

Morrisseeee

No

The whole saga is like a game of chess, a slow-ish opening, an even slower middle game, but the endgame is moving along quite nicely now

I'm not sure how much personal wealth he has, but I presume it will be stretched to the limit over the next few years!!

AstraMonti

No

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Harsh Astra. Just because it's true doesn't mean that people didn't admire him (in the past) and find his (fake) story inspiring and comforting. It's like there are a lot of people out there who have just found out that the big fat man in red won't be coming around this Christmas. The reality of his existence doesn't diminish the excitement that people felt when they truly believed, in fact it increases the gut-wrenching disappointment that they invested so much emotion in a fairy-tale. There's a sense of personal betrayal, made even more acute because the believers were so invested in the myth that they failed (or wilfully ignored) all the warning signs.

For most of us who follow cycling, there has been a relatively gradual path to the downfall of Lance. From L.A. Confidentiel on, increasing numbers of questions have been raised and inadequately answered. But for those who believed the spin all along, this has all landed on them like a ton of bricks.

I understand what you are saying and I feel extremely sorry for all the people that believed (in) him, especially if they are fighting cancer and they need a blind hope. But I can't feel sympathy for all the rest that followed him. All the evidence were just in the front of their eyes, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone really.

MPFG

No

paddyh117 wrote: »

On this note, is anyone else sick of David Millar's attitude?? - "it's a different sport now than it was 5 years ago"......eh hello! Contador wasn't 5 years ago!

Frankly I can't stand him and his holier than thou attitude - if he wasn't caught and banned he'd be the same as the rest of the dopers!

Must admit, I haven't read his book yet, so maybe I’m being harsh - rant over

Yep ...he gets right up my nose too
He is very pro Pat McQuiad as he has moved into the establisment now
But it's his evangelical attitude that drives me insane...he doped and was caught....stop acting like the second coming

BTW - all those twitter bods using French Revoultion charcters as twitter profiles ought to remember that French Revolution lead to a reign of terror!

I want the truth to come out but I want the process not to totally undermine the profession of cycling

buffalo

No

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Seriously? Comparing an honest LA to Santa Claus is spot on. We're adults, not seven year old children. I'll be telling my brat after this Christmas that the fat man doesn't exist, I'll lose plenty of respect for him if he turns a blind eye to the evidence and he's eight. Anyone who believed in LA, ever, was a fool, a fool who hepled perpetuate the myth and give the guy more moral support and allow his ego to work overtime. I am reminded of plenty of a certain religion doing the same thing for the last 50 years. LA a hero, seriously?

Kill your idols.

So everyone everywhere should've automatically known from the moment they heard his story that he was the head of a massive doping ring? I don't think you can expect everyone who picked up any of his books to know exactly what was going on between the lines. A lot of people wouldn't follow pro-cycling to the extent that they'd suspect anything, they'd just follow Armstrong.

Granted, as time went by, and more and more evidence and accusations started flying, I would expect people to wake up. But 'LA Confidential' was only published in 2004, four years after 'It's Not About The Bike'.

Beasty

No

buffalo wrote: »

So everyone everywhere should've automatically known from the moment they heard his story that he was the head of a massive doping ring?

Santa's the head of a massive doping ring??:eek:

FFS, I know it's Friday, but can someone please think of the children ...

Morrisseeee

No

Santa is real.......................Lance isn't

/remember Santa never pretended to be something he isn't, Santa never lies !

allybhoy

No

MPFG wrote: »

Yep ...he gets right up my nose too
He is very pro Pat McQuiad as he has moved into the establisment now
But it's his evangelical attitude that drives me insane...he doped and was caught....stop acting like the second coming

BTW - all those twitter bods using French Revoultion charcters as twitter profiles ought to remember that French Revolution lead to a reign of terror!

I want the truth to come out but I want the process not to totally undermine the profession of cycling

I was listening to a radio program last week and they introduced him without any backstory as "David Millar the pro-cyclist who is helping to fight the war on doping"

...And up next we have Abu Hamza al-Masri who is helping to fight the war on terror

Harrybelafonte

buffalo wrote: »

So everyone everywhere should've automatically known from the moment they heard his story that he was the head of a massive doping ring? I don't think you can expect everyone who picked up any of his books to know exactly what was going on between the lines. A lot of people wouldn't follow pro-cycling to the extent that they'd suspect anything, they'd just follow Armstrong.

Granted, as time went by, and more and more evidence and accusations started flying, I would expect people to wake up. But 'LA Confidential' was only published in 2004, four years after 'It's Not About The Bike'.

As extreme as it may sound, no, I don't think he should ever have reached the level of admiration he did. (I don't mean the doping ring by the way, just his own enhancements.) It's not just about the doping, it was his whole attitude form the beginning. Look, I don't expect people to agree with me, I don't particularly like the idea of people having heroes etc. Admiring people yeah, but heroes become proxies for achievements and cause a strange myopia in the believer.

This is all tainted by the fact that everyone I know personally who was/is a Lance fan 1. Isn't into cycling. 2. Couldn't name one other winner of the TdF, let alone any other cyclist. 3. Wouldn't listen to the facts/evidence (circumstantial or otherwise). 4. Immediately became upset at losing their object of idolatory, which made absolutely no sense to me. 5. Defended his spitting on people, his arrogance and his mouth zipping signal.

I, genuinely ask, apart from surviving cancer and doing something with his life, something which many other people, family members and friends have done, what made him such a special human being? Maybe I oversimplify it.

Kav0777

No

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Santa is real.......................Lance isn't

/remember Santa never pretended to be something he isn't, Santa never lies !

I believe he gives the reindeer PED's though, or "magic dust" as he calls it.....


Edited to Apologise to Mods for doping speculation..

wonderfullife

No

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

Seriously? Comparing an honest LA to Santa Claus is spot on. We're adults, not seven year old children. I'll be telling my brat after this Christmas that the fat man doesn't exist, I'll lose plenty of respect for him if he turns a blind eye to the evidence and he's eight. Anyone who believed in LA, ever, was a fool, a fool who hepled perpetuate the myth and give the guy more moral support and allow his ego to work overtime. I am reminded of plenty of a certain religion doing the same thing for the last 50 years. LA a hero, seriously?

Kill your idols.

ah come on! he's 8?! give it until at least 10 I think i was just gone 11 when i found out the news and you should never "lose respect" for an 8 year old*

*unless said 8 year old is destroying the u-12 competitions due to performance enhancing drugs.

buffalo

No

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

This is all tainted by the fact that everyone I know personally who was/is a Lance fan 1. Isn't into cycling. 2. Couldn't name one other winner of the TdF, let alone any other cyclist. 3. Wouldn't listen to the facts/evidence (circumstantial or otherwise). 4. Immediately became upset at losing their object of idolatory, which made absolutely no sense to me. 5. Defended his spitting on people, his arrogance and his mouth zipping signal.

I, genuinely ask, apart from surviving cancer and doing something with his life, something which many other people, family members and friends have done, what made him such a special human being? Maybe I oversimplify it.

This is key. I think any LA fans who were still clinging on to their vision until recently were not at all into cycling. Surviving cancer, and coming back stronger than before (to win some big race in France)... that's a powerful thing. You don't see why that would inspire people?

mcgratheoin

No

AstraMonti wrote: »

All the evidence were just in the front of their eyes, it shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone really.

Totally agree, but we've seen again and again how the cancer surviving, charity founding Lance is held up as a counterpoint to the cheating, self-serving bully Lance, so it comes as no surprise to me to find that many of his fans and defenders have little or no interest in his cycling career. It's the story, the hope and the myth that people bought into. In all likelihood they never followed cycling, never read any of David Walsh's or Paul Kimmage's articles, and quite probably never really cared that much about it.

HarryBelafonte hits the nail on the head when he talks about his 7 year old. When I was a kid I actually met Santa one Christmas night and commented to my mother after he'd gone that he had the same shoes as my father (who was in the next door garden holding the reindeer). The evidence is there, but there's a complete disregard for it because you're so invested in the myth that it never even occurs to you to question it. I don't think that the anger and frustration towards Lance fans is directed at those people with a 7-year old's outlook, rather it's at those 8-year olds (continuing HarryBelafonte's excellent analogy) who have had the evidence pointed out to them and still refuse to change their mindset.

My original point was that it's entirely understandable for that 7-year old to be upset and feel betrayed initially, and telling them that is should have been obvious from the start may not actually make them feel any better about it.

mcgratheoin

No

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

This is all tainted by the fact that everyone I know personally who was/is a Lance fan 1. Isn't into cycling. 2. Couldn't name one other winner of the TdF, let alone any other cyclist.

As he said, "It's not about the Bike"

I'll get my coat....

buffalo

No

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling-has-cleaned-up-its-act-now-claims-stephen-roche-3265071.html

Stand back everyone! Stephen Roche says it's okay!!

It's a sign of how far the pro-peloton has sunk when a rider is "suspected of being clean".

iregk

No

Am I the only one seeing a future spin on this from LA? I'm saying his statement today will be the usual denial, it's a witch hunt, never failed a test etc... Live the lie. Sponsors will come looking for money back as may well race organisers. When he is sorting that out with them and is staring into a financial abyss out cometh the biography of our time: "Lance Armstrong: Coming Clean"

That would sell like hot cakes with a full admission of guilt in it and would easily recover his returned prize money and sponsorship. I can already see it spinning around his mind...