'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

spokesman

No

morana wrote: »

I am both saddened and delighted. Sad for all the cancer sufferers who put their hope in him and looked up to him who he conned but delighted that the cheat has been caught. Delighted also for Nobby O'Reillys sister Emma, bassons and all the rest he bullied.

Maybe Emma O' Reilly's book might get to be published now,

spokesman

No

BryanL wrote: »

Why are people annoyed at Paul Kimmage? because he was right?
I loved the description of him as a crap cyclist, RAS winner,6th in the amateur worlds, Pro tour level rider, Olympian, multiple grand tours.

if that's crap, what the hell is a Cat2 rider?

Why are people so annoyed at Kimmage and walsh who campaigned and wrote against the tide to promote cleaner sport? they never profitted like Ligget and Sherwin, never travelled in the private jet.

Cycling is cleaner and better because of a few people that actually like cycling as a sport.

Well said......Sherwin is involved with Armstrong in a gold mine in Africa,

alexanderomahon

Don't fully get the real anger at Armstrong. yes he was a drug cheat, but at a time when most of top riders (if not nearly all) were drug cheats.

Like others I'm sure he didn't enter cycling with the intention of taking drugs to win races, but the culture and the reality of professional cycling took him and many others to that place. Others are to blame as well. The owners, managers, older riders, journalists etc must also take their share of the blame.

Armstrong like the other cyclists still went through the pain of cycling at the highest level. He also did survive a viscous cancer and still came back to achieved amazing things for any cancer survivor. The drugs don't suddenly make riding the tour easy.

I just hope at some stage he will be honest about what happened and name those above him who led him down the drugs road.

CardinalJ

No

Kimmage on Newstalk now.

longshanks

Paul Kimmage on Newstalk now




Edit: Too slow

CardinalJ

No

longshanks wrote: »

Paul Kimmage on Newstalk now




Edit: Too slow

Some people might say I used PED's to post faster than you, hard to prove though.

funnights74

No

average_runner wrote: »

So the times today are slower.

Yes but they are what a "Normal" high quality athlete would be expected to produce. The power output produced by drug taking athletes is off the scale hence it's a red flag to any knowledgeable observer, This years TdF was one of the slowest for years, hence it is being lauded as a clean tour. Let's hope the UCI have got it right at last.

Morrisseeee

No

Can someone please UPDATE this :pac:

Inquitus

No

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Can someone please UPDATE this :pac:

Already been done, reversed and page protected.

Kurt Godel

alexanderomahon wrote: »

Don't fully get the real anger at Armstrong. yes he was a drug cheat, but at a time when most of top riders (if not nearly all) were drug cheats.

Like others I'm sure he didn't enter cycling with the intention of taking drugs to win races, but the culture and the reality of professional cycling took him and many others to that place. Others are to blame as well. The owners, managers, older riders, journalists etc must also take their share of the blame.

Armstrong like the other cyclists still went through the pain of cycling at the highest level. He also did survive a viscous cancer and still came back to achieved amazing things for any cancer survivor. The drugs don't suddenly make riding the tour easy.

I just hope at some stage he will be honest about what happened and name those above him who led him down the drugs road.

I suspect anyone who has noticed improvement in their endurance through hard word (whatever the level), feels anger at LA for plain and simply, cheating. There's a point where the individual chooses to dope, or not. LA, and the other endurance athletes who gain pharma benefit, were cheating those who chose not to, those whose names are almost at the top end of races, (and anyone else who chose to aspire at their sport through hard work). Cheating them out of medals, prize and sponsorship money, acclaim, etc. The "reality" and culture of EPO doping leads to overworked heart stress and early death, it's banned for a reason.

On your last point, there's one person to name for leading him down the drugs road- no-one put a gun to his head, it was his own choice.

morana

No

funnights74 wrote: »

Yes but they are what a "Normal" high quality athlete would be expected to produce. The power output produced by drug taking athletes is off the scale hence it's a red flag to any knowledgeable observer, This years TdF was one of the slowest for years, hence it is being lauded as a clean tour. Let's hope the UCI have got it right at last.

yeah if you look at the sustainable power its more normal than something like 6.8w/kg for 40 mins or so for the long climbs.

GT_TDI_150

No

maximoose wrote: »

http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/armstrong1150px.jpg

Quite the farce.

that graph still has F.Schleck as 'clean'

raftni wrote: »

one thing I don't understand.


Let's assume Lance was cheating from 1999 - 2005.

The heat would have been highest during that period.

1. Why retire, get away with it, and come back in 2009 and 2010 and dope again knowing that they'd be trying thrice as hard to catch him second time around???? seems like he had so much to risk in coming back, why would he come back and dope ''again''?

2. And why if these blood tests from 2009,2010 are deemed positive, why were they not deemed positive back in 2009, 2010 when they were taken?

Sorry, I'm not up on what test have now shown to be positive, but I think he came back in 2009/2010 assuming he was competing against a 'cleaner' peleton and probably though that with little or no cheating he could take them on again ... by his own standards he was poor in those 2 years

I'm one of those that read his books many, many moons ago ... his 'explanations'(not creation lactic acid at the same rate as non-chemo'd athletes, ...) at the time to me seemed plausible, but then I started listening to what 'testimonies' were out there and ...started to strongly disbelieve his version of events.

I hate that 'sure they're all at it in cycling' is all I was hearing in the office today!!

I think it is too soon to decide whether this is a good or bad day for cycling.
If the authorities have the balls to remove all 'known' dopers from the record books, leaving any competitions they won without a winner AND if on the back of this they start handing lifetime bans to anyone(riders, team boses, doctors, ...) caught/involved in doping then it could be a good day. Surely Johan Bryneel is next for one of the 'covetted' lifetime bans?!? Otherwise it is just a charade ...

a 2yr ban for getting caught is imo ridiculus!

morana

No

dont know about you but I am sickened by his contemporaries coming out with the usual **** like Merckx in Het Nieuwsblad " he never tested positive" ffs when will a rider have the balls to stand up. Thats the problem with cycling its totally in denial they cant stand up and say "yeah he doped its right he lose his results"

This episode has depressed me. Here is a guy who has conned the world and damaged peoples careers and the likes of Horner says hes a hero....he should get a ban for that alone. It shows what they really think.

corny

No

morana wrote: »

dont know about you but I am sickened by his contemporaries coming out with the usual **** like Merckx in Het Nieuwsblad " he never tested positive" ffs when will a rider have the balls to stand up. Thats the problem with cycling its totally in denial they cant stand up and say "yeah he doped its right he lose his results"

This episode has depressed me. Here is a guy who has conned the world and damaged peoples careers and the likes of Horner says hes a hero....he should get a ban for that alone. It shows what they really think.

Ever heard the saying 'people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones'. His contemporaries were all at it so it would be hard for them to feign indignation.

Great day for cycling and USADA are ****in heroes for finally bringing this despicable man to justice.

my friend

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Can someone please UPDATE this :pac:

signs were ominous in 1994 with his first win....

biomed32

No

I think the sad thing is in this whole mess is that Armstrong has surrendered all his titles effectivly, from my understanding, escaping any official guilty verdict although this theory falls flat on its face if USDA continue.
A younger version of me was in awe of Armstrong and his amazing feats and on top of that his foundation Livestrong which has grown exponentially since it was started. I even recall being excited to ride with him in the phoenix park in 2009 when he was in Ireland.
I think this whole mess could have been averted if Lance had owned up at the time when he was first caught, effectivly getting a slap on the wrist, something I deem Contador got.
Alas a dirty chapter in cycling has been closed and as said in the beginning of this Armstrong has made sure he does not have the truth of his part aired in the general publics domain either to protect Livestrong or himself or both...

GT_TDI_150

No

biomed32 wrote: »

I think the sad thing is in this whole mess is that Armstrong has surrendered all his titles effectivly, from my understanding, escaping any official guilty verdict although this theory falls flat on its face if USDA continue.
A younger version of me was in awe of Armstrong and his amazing feats and on top of that his foundation Livestrong which has grown exponentially since it was started. I even recall being excited to ride with him in the phoenix park in 2009 when he was in Ireland.
I think this whole mess could have been averted if Lance had owned up at the time when he was first caught, effectivly getting a slap on the wrist, something I deem Contador got.
Alas a dirty chapter in cycling has been closed and as said in the beginning of this Armstrong has made sure he does not have the truth of his part aired in the general publics domain either to protect Livestrong or himself or both...

To me this is the problem in cycling(read all pro-sport), a slap on the wrist is not a strong enough deterent ... lifetime bans on the other hand, will make a fella think twice about getting involved.

e.g. you can compete in an olympics/tour/world cups/.... get caught for PED after the event, serve a 2yr ban and take part again 4-3-2yrs later?!, where is the deterent in that?

Dermot Illogical

No

http://www.theonion.com/articles/havent-we-all-done-steroids-in-a-way,29317/

GT_TDI_150

No

alexanderomahon wrote: »

Did people really believe stuff like this was not drug fuelled?

I was still young and naive in those days and a 'believer'

Now, I hate what he has done to my memories!!!!

downwiththatsor

No

Abc news Report here http://www.steephill.tv/players/generic/?title=ABC+Report+on+the+Lance+Armstrong+Lifetime+Ban&dashboard=&id=2012/misc_clips/armstrong_ban_nightline&yr=2012
David Walsh on BBC Five Live http://www.steephill.tv/players/720/qt/?title=Lance+Armstrong+Analysis+including+interviews+w/+Dave+Walsh+and+Doug+Ullman&dashboard=&id=velorooms.com/files/bbc_radio_five_live_ullman_slater_walsh_240812.mp3&yr=2012

honkjelly

So you'd assume the USDA have a pretty tight case against Lance, which will hopefully be made public in time. What I don't get why the federal criminal investigation was dropped earlier this year. If there is evidence that he's guilty and he's lied in a federal investigation then he should be getting jail time ala Marion Jones?

morana

No

honkjelly wrote: »

So you'd assume the USDA have a pretty tight case against Lance, which will hopefully be made public in time. What I don't get why the federal criminal investigation was dropped earlier this year. If there is evidence that he's guilty and he's lied in a federal investigation then he should be getting jail time ala Marion Jones?

think it was a different thing all together.They wanted to know if public money was used to buy roids!

I see Anderson and Escartin are condoning it on cyclingnews.com...that tells a thousand tales..

corny

No

honkjelly wrote: »

So you'd assume the USDA have a pretty tight case against Lance, which will hopefully be made public in time. What I don't get why the federal criminal investigation was dropped earlier this year. If there is evidence that he's guilty and he's lied in a federal investigation then he should be getting jail time ala Marion Jones?

Their only concern was did a federal crime take place not did Lance Armstrong take PED's. Important distinction.

Just looking back on the Armstrong TDF wins. In 2003 i make it Carlos Sastre was the only man in the top 10 not implicated or convicted of doping and he finished 9th!!!

Edit: Same in 2004 actually!

downwiththatsor

No

Nice to see some support for Lance :eek:


http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/armstrong-hunts-down-rider



At the Spanish Vuelta, riders including former rival and teammate Alberto Contador joined ex-Armstrong coach Johan Bruyneel in offering support.
"I think he was a cyclist who always showed such strength, great intelligence and spectacular physical conditioning," said Contador, who edged Armstrong for his second Tour title in the first year of his comeback in 2009 and has battled his own doping charges. "We should wait and see what happens at the close before passing judgment."

GT_TDI_150

No

downwiththatsor wrote: »

Nice to see some support for Lance :eek:


http://www.bicycling.com/news/pro-cycling/armstrong-hunts-down-rider



At the Spanish Vuelta, riders including former rival and teammate Alberto Contador joined ex-Armstrong coach Johan Bruyneel in offering support.
"I think he was a cyclist who always showed such strength, great intelligence and spectacular physical conditioning," said Contador, who edged Armstrong for his second Tour title in the first year of his comeback in 2009 and has battled his own doping charges. "We should wait and see what happens at the close before passing judgment."

This is why we cant call it a watershed moment for cycling ...

DirkVoodoo

No

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

To me this is the problem in cycling(read all pro-sport), a slap on the wrist is not a strong enough deterent ... lifetime bans on the other hand, will make a fella think twice about getting involved.

e.g. you can compete in an olympics/tour/world cups/.... get caught for PED after the event, serve a 2yr ban and take part again 4-3-2yrs later?!, where is the deterent in that?

You were looking for books to read? Grab David Millar's book and see if that helps.

It's all well and good getting on your high horse about these things when you aren't confronted with it yourself.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

God forbid you ever make a mistake you regret and have to rely on the mercy and forgiveness of others.

Plenty of cyclists have doped, some of them have had no remorse and learned nothing (Ricco, etc.) but others like Millar have got through to the other side and used their experience to stop others from making the same mistakes.

You can keep handing out lifetime bans, but there will always be more cheats ready to take the risk because for some, the risk of not being able to compete and secure a contract is as terrifying as the risk of being caught. You need to change the mindset, that you don't need to dope to compete, that people can win clean.

It's when guys take the second chance and toss it away like an empty gel wrapper that you need to take the harsh measures. Some guys just won't learn. The UCI also seems to be totally unwilling to make examples of some of the top riders. I like Contador as a rider, but has he showed any signs of repentance?

corny

No

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

You were looking for books to read? Grab David Millar's book and see if that helps.

It's all well and good getting on your high horse about these things when you aren't confronted with it yourself.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

God forbid you ever make a mistake you regret and have to rely on the mercy and forgiveness of others.

Plenty of cyclists have doped, some of them have had no remorse and learned nothing (Ricco, etc.) but others like Millar have got through to the other side and used their experience to stop others from making the same mistakes.

You can keep handing out lifetime bans, but there will always be more cheats ready to take the risk because for some, the risk of not being able to compete and secure a contract is as terrifying as the risk of being caught. You need to change the mindset, that you don't need to dope to compete, that people can win clean.

It's when guys take the second chance and toss it away like an empty gel wrapper that you need to take the harsh measures. Some guys just won't learn. The UCI also seems to be totally unwilling to make examples of some of the top riders. I like Contador as a rider, but has he showed any signs of repentance?

Thats rubbish. In effect what you're saying is its ok to dope as long as you do it just the once and write a book saying how sorry you are.

If two years isn't an effective deterrent the authorities need to find one. A lifetime ban sends the right message. At least we wouldn't have a cheating bastard as an Olympic champion.

GT_TDI_150

No

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

GT_TDI_150 wrote: »

To me this is the problem in cycling(read all pro-sport), a slap on the wrist is not a strong enough deterent ... lifetime bans on the other hand, will make a fella think twice about getting involved.

e.g. you can compete in an olympics/tour/world cups/.... get caught for PED after the event, serve a 2yr ban and take part again 4-3-2yrs later?!, where is the deterent in that?

You were looking for books to read? Grab David Millar's book and see if that helps.

It's all well and good getting on your high horse about these things when you aren't confronted with it yourself.

Everyone deserves a second chance.

God forbid you ever make a mistake you regret and have to rely on the mercy and forgiveness of others.

Plenty of cyclists have doped, some of them have had no remorse and learned nothing (Ricco, etc.) but others like Millar have got through to the other side and used their experience to stop others from making the same mistakes.

You can keep handing out lifetime bans, but there will always be more cheats ready to take the risk because for some, the risk of not being able to compete and secure a contract is as terrifying as the risk of being caught. You need to change the mindset, that you don't need to dope to compete, that people can win clean.

It's when guys take the second chance and toss it away like an empty gel wrapper that you need to take the harsh measures. Some guys just won't learn. The UCI also seems to be totally unwilling to make examples of some of the top riders. I like Contador as a rider, but has he showed any signs of repentance?

I know what ur saying but these guys arent making a mistake, they know what the do is wrong/illegal.

Whether i work(i do)or receive benefits to make ends meet(barely), i dont go out and rob old ladies or sell drugs to make my life more comfortable as i know the consequences (btw i think punishments for these are too light also)

People still made the consious decesion to engage in doping, its not like they got 'rohipnolled'

downwiththatsor

No

Hope contadors friend the guy with the doctors robe and big syringe can travel at short notice!

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/sports/more-sports/cycling/Banned-Lance-Armstrong-says-hell-race-on-Saturday/articleshow/15648764.cms

MrSing

Very happy to see this cheat exposed, Dirty rat!