'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

Beasty

No

LeoD wrote: »

what skills exactly did Bradley Wiggins display to win the Tour?

Well he has spent years developing the most aerodynamic sideburns known to man. You watch next year - they'll all be copying him ....

mcgratheoin

No

ballygowan1 wrote: »

Guess you missed this then?

Where have you been living?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/3031535.stm

French customs said that the drugs found were ordinary medical drugs for a gynacological issue and the problem was that they hadn't been declared at the border. Aside from getting caught up in Botezan's actovegin supply, there was never any other hint of drug controversy around Szabo. I'm a little more trusting of the outcome in this case as it was French police investigating rather than any sporting body.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/3047351.stm

On a Sydney note, she was at the peak of her ability in 1999/2000 and six years younger than Sonia.

corny

No

I agree you stand to gain more from PED's with cycling but Tennis is a poor comparison imo. It strikes me that Nadal, Djokovic and Murray win not on the strength of their shots but on the fact they chase down everything and grind the rest into submission. Nadal especially has phenomenal athleticism. Thats why he is unbeatable on the clay courts where longer rallies are common. Literally runs them into the ground.

mcgratheoin

No

Lumen wrote: »

If you're saying "in cycling the difference between winning and losing can be down to physical strength and stamina, and therefore the outcomes can be largely swayed by the use of PEDs, but that's not the case in (say) ball sports" then I still disagree.

But that's not what I'm saying! - you quoted me and then misinterpreted the quote. Yes cycling is a skilful sport. Yes, obviously any sport can be influenced by PEDs. Here's the gist of my point.

"PEDs have a comparatively greater influence on results in cycling than in many other sports including tennis."

To personalise it, I would suggest that Roger Federer at his peak would still be able to beat an average pro tennis player who was pumped up on steroids/EPO/PEDs of choice. During the LA years, we saw performances which were humanly impossible, (according to the power outputs), therefore regardless of the skill level, it was impossible for any clean cyclist to compete.

Lusk Doyle

No

Raam wrote: »

Also depends on the form of cycling. Try keeping up with Robin Seymour as he goes around corners in CX. Fitness being equal, a skilled crosser will destroy a non-skilled crosser. Cycling skills are a lot more subtle than other sports.

Subtle like a fox!!!

petethedrummer

No

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'd like to put him on a bike and ask him to chase the peloton down some Pyrennean descent

Basso won a grand tour though. Andy Schleck too! And Denis Menchov with the handling skills of a drunken monkey.

BryanL

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I'd like to put him on a bike and ask him to chase the peloton down some Pyrennean descent

Or even an old retired Pro throwing shapes on an open road making a Ducati squeel?

http://vimeo.com/48158577

Imagine what Chipo would be doing if it was 10k from a stage finish?

Lusk Doyle

No

petethedrummer wrote: »

Basso won a grand tour though. Andy Schleck too! And Denis Menchov with the handling skills of a drunken monkey.

Did he really? Default promotion to first following disqualification doesn't count :pac:

RobFowl

No

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

Did he really? Default promotion to first following disqualification doesn't count :pac:

Why not?

happytramp

No

RobFowl wrote: »

Why not?

Ah come on, totally doesn't count. Sure he says himself he didn't win it.

Lusk Doyle

No

RobFowl wrote: »

Why not?

Cos Andy Schleck is a dickhead. I'd say he must cause some amount of tailbacks on motorways when passing crashes, the big rubber neck on him.

In case you can't figure it out, I don't like Andy Schleck. I'm much more of a Frank Schleck man :pac:

letape

No

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

he had a habit of getting high and eating junk food, the ephedrine would have been for weight loss.

And footballers have used blood transfusions to aid recovery. Regardless of the reason for taking the substance, two positive tests and bans in a period when there was much less in the way of tests and no out of competition testing etc, I think the point made by the previous poster and off the balls selected view is fair.

2 Wheels Good

No

BryanL wrote: »

Or even an old retired Pro throwing shapes on an open road making a Ducati squeel?

http://vimeo.com/48158577

Imagine what Chipo would be doing if it was 10k from a stage finish?

More than doable on a decent road!
You have to remember their roads aren't filled with potholes and sheep

Cienciano

No

An effigy of disgraced cyclist Lance Armstrong wearing a Jim'll Fix It badge will be burned at a Kent town's annual bonfire celebrations.
A 30ft (9m) model of the American, who was stripped of his seven Tour de France titles for doping offences, will go up in flames in Edenbridge

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-20154327

happytramp

No

Cienciano wrote: »

An effigy of disgraced cyclist Lance Armstrong wearing a Jim'll Fix It badge will be burned at a Kent town's annual bonfire celebrations.
A 30ft (9m) model of the American, who was stripped of his seven Tour de France titles for doping offences, will go up in flames in Edenbridge

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-20154327

Finally! Proof that it really was a Witch hunt all along!

MPFG

No

Hope Pat's enquiry in June covers this point ....(some interesting comments posted at the end)

http://gerard.cc/2012/10/31/forget-backdating/

corny

No

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUJcrkY2U-0

Stan Ground Dude!

T-K-O

MPFG wrote: »

Went on the 'Off the Ball' facebook page to look at Late late show interview with S Roche and D Walsh from 2002...
Anyway I was curious to see that the 'Off the ball' page has Maradona as its title photo ......well as for cheating and known drug use I don't think you could find a beter mascott in football .....

Strange message from that station.......have several programes dedicated to the ills of doping and cheating in cycling but advertise Maradona as our 'mascot' ......blinkered or what.........oh and he still has his world cup medals and accolades and place in history I believe ...unbelieveable bias

Are you seriously comparing Mardonna to Lance Armstrong. Now that is strange.

Question for the enthusiasts, who will cycling blame now that Lance is outta the way or will this be the golden egg that will cure the sport

AstraMonti

No

T-K-O wrote: »

Question for the enthusiasts, who will cycling blame now that Lance is outta the way or will this be the golden egg that will cure the sport

They are still many people that need to move away from the sport in order for something to change for good, UCI's heads are some of them.

Beasty

No

AstraMonti wrote: »

They are still many people that need to move away from the sport in order for something to change for good, UCI's heads are some of them.

Yep - we already have our next target in our sights

MPFG

No

T-K-O wrote: »

Are you seriously comparing Mardonna to Lance Armstrong. Now that is strange.

I don't think I did

My point was if you are a radio station and run anti doping programmes would you have Maradonna as your mascot...and how I would like to see soem balanced programming re drugs in other sports
I don't think that point excuses Armstrong or compares the two....but the reality of the issues of drugs is they are in other sports but no one seems to investigate or report .......

dave_o_brien

No

MPFG wrote: »

I don't think I did

My point was if you are a radio station and run anti doping programmes would you have Maradonna as your mascot...and how I would like to see soem balanced programming re drugs in other sports
I don't think that point excuses Armstrong or compares the two....but the reality of the issues of drugs is they are in other sports but no one seems to investigate or report .......

Absolutely agree, only over the weekend my brother was saying how crap it was that Armstrong was a druggie. I mentioned the Barcelona speculation, to which he responded "sure everyone knows Messi won't leave Barcelona cause they paid for his growth hormone treatment, and he's really grateful for that. Is that doping? I didn't know that, I thought that was legal..."

Mods, I am not speculating myself on whether or not Messi is a doper, just passing on a second hand comment reflecting how people who follow other sports often don't realise that some accepted treatments are actually illegal.

shaka

No

Messi had medical condition as child which meant he needed Hormone treatment to help him grow , think he was borderline dwarf/midget/little person- sorry folks don't know the pc term to use

corny

No

shaka wrote: »

Messi had medical condition as child which meant he needed Hormone treatment to help him grow , think he was borderline dwarf/midget/little person- sorry folks don't know the pc term to use

But you'll plough on till you find it!!!:D

Eamonnator

No

shaka wrote: »

Messi had medical condition as child which meant he needed Hormone treatment to help him grow , think he was borderline dwarf/midget/little person- sorry folks don't know the pc term to use

Vertically challenged?

maximoose

No

shaka wrote: »

Messi had medical condition as child which meant he needed Hormone treatment to help him grow , think he was borderline dwarf/midget/little person- sorry folks don't know the pc term to use

David: "Look whether or not Anton is indeed a midget, or a dwarf-"
Alex: "No he’s a midget"
David: "What’s the difference?"
Alex: "A dwarf is someone who has disproportionately short arms and legs"
David: "Oh I know the ones"
Alex: "It’s caused by a hormone deficiency"
David: "Yeah… bloody hormones"
Alex: "A midget is still a dwarf but their arms and legs are in proportion"
Gareth: "So... what’s an elf?"


:pac:

Leroy42

Without wanting to go OT,(but still) if the storys about Messi are true about growth hormones then surely that is an even greater use of PED's than even LA partook in. Messi was aparantly born and grew so that he wouldn't cut it in the world of professional football. Barcelona decided that his inherent skill was such that he would be re-engineered. That is dangerously close to DNA re-engineering for me.

How is that not as bad as what LA did? Is it because its football that so little is said about it. It has been suggested in many quarters that the next wave of PED's will be DNA changing based.

Would the Messi example not be along the lines of taking guys with low VO2 max and giving them drugs to bring them up to superstar levels?

brandon_flowers

No

Leroy42 wrote: »

Without wanting to go OT,(but still) if the storys about Messi are true about growth hormones then surely that is an even greater use of PED's than even LA partook in. Messi was aparantly born and grew so that he wouldn't cut it in the world of professional football. Barcelona decided that his inherent skill was such that he would be re-engineered. That is dangerously close to DNA re-engineering for me.

How is that not as bad as what LA did? Is it because its football that so little is said about it. It has been suggested in many quarters that the next wave of PED's will be DNA changing based.

Would the Messi example not be along the lines of taking guys with low VO2 max and giving them drugs to bring them up to superstar levels?

If US Postal had paid for Armstrongs cancer treatment would you question it?

Barcelona paid for a medical treatment, not an illegal administration of PED's.

shaka

No

Don't think so , whether or not barca payed for it he had a medical condition that would of been treated at some stage . Think maybe it's a case of earlier the better for all parties concerned.. It's fairly well documented, not some dirty little secret like pharmstrong ..

Ps I'll go with vertically challenged

Leroy42

@Brandon - I would not qustion USPS paying for cancer treatment, the man was dying and it is right that an employer looks after someones health. Messi is a different case. Messi's life, as far as I understand and am fully open to correction, was not under threat. It was only a medical condition in so far as medicine could help change it. You could argue that EPO can change my inherent abilities as well. My point being that it is a fine line between doping and medical enhancements.

@ Shaka, I am pretty sure there are plenty of vertically challenged people going around. But what next. A guy who is good at basketball but is short is given growth hormones to get to 6'6". Why stop there, use better drugs to get to 7' or 8'.

It is well documented because it is accepted. That doesn't make it right.

What effect does blood doping and EPO have on an elite athelete. It takes his natural abilities and allows them to push far beyond what 'Normal' elites can achieve. Is Messi's treatment any different?