'Enough is Enough' - Lance Armstrong

T-K-O

happytramp wrote: »

Yes, full of all the usual American emotion and theatrics!! Wish I could see the whole thing now. One thing though, is it just me or does the way it's edited make it seem like Armstrong personally sent Tygart a death threat? That may be a bit misleading.

Not his style he prefers incineration :rolleyes:

happytramp

No

T-K-O wrote: »

Not his style he prefers incineration :rolleyes:

I'm honestly surprised that line wasn't followed by black and white footage of someone fleeing a nazi with a flamethrower.

I love lance bashing as much as the next guy but I'm not really into everyone in the media that suckled at his teats for ten years jumping on the bandwagon. I want a 'I hated Lance before it was cool' t-shirt.

T-K-O

happytramp wrote: »

I'm honestly surprised that line wasn't followed by black and white footage of someone fleeing a nazi with a flamethrower.

I love lance bashing as much as the next guy but I'm not really into everyone in the media that suckled at his teats for ten years jumping on the bandwagon. I want a 'I hated Lance before it was cool' t-shirt.

It's so unnecessary, Armstrong could not be in any deeper. Guilty, case closed but Interviews like that make a mockery of the situation.

mcgratheoin

No

Weirdview wrote: »

There's an awful lot of articles out there about Lance/Oprah but I think this is by far the best I've come across. Nail on head.

http://bicycling.com/blogs/boulderreport/2013/01/09/not-a-comfy-couch/.

Holy Crap - just read this bit of it...

"A truth that went overlooked in the debate over those samples is that in at least two samples, 100 percent of the protein isoforms in Armstrong’s electrophoresis gels were consistent with synthetic EPO. That means that he had taken so much EPO for long enough that his body basically shut down its own production; it didn’t even register on the test."

Weirdview

No

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Holy Crap - just read this bit of it...

"A truth that went overlooked in the debate over those samples is that in at least two samples, 100 percent of the protein isoforms in Armstrong’s electrophoresis gels were consistent with synthetic EPO. That means that he had taken so much EPO for long enough that his body basically shut down its own production; it didn’t even register on the test."

Scary stuff!!

I like this quote..


He has long proved himself to be a narcissistic manipulator, and people are tired of lies, half-truths, and naked justifications for bad behavior.

Colonialboy

Yes, but he's still great

petethedrummer wrote: »

I think the French did a pretty good job on Virenque.

google doesnt tell you squat
Ive watched the tour in France pre and post Virenque... trust me when he was riding away from everyone on the hills no one was questioning his 'training methods' .
And when ever his mug apeears on TV5 during the TDF commentating more often than not the room erupts in cheers saluting a great French cyclist.

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

Mate you have nothing, you don't even seem to have a point anymore. Why exactly are you even here posting in a forum about a sport you admit you know very little about or an athlete you seem to know little about.

In some ways your very like Lance, bullying and attacking people who have a different opinion to yourself.
Maybe thats why we all hate Lance so much , theres a little bit of each of us in what he did.

Ineresting discussion though ...

Hermy

No

Maybe Lance is gonna tell us his cancer's come back...

iregk

No

Not sure if this has been posted before but 2 years on and it's every bit as appropiate as it was then.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/lance-armstrong-wants-to-tell-nation-something-but,17973/

Diarmuid

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

And when ever his mug apeears on TV5 during the TDF commentating more often than not the room erupts in cheers saluting a great French cyclist.

Because a studio full of people are meant to do that. He was ridiculed in the media in general post-Festina. Of course time passes and things move on. Give it 10 years and Bertie will be back in front of a studio full of cheering gob****es on the Late Late.

Fr D Maugire

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

google doesnt tell you squat
Ive watched the tour in France pre and post Virenque... trust me when he was riding away from everyone on the hills no one was questioning his 'training methods' .
And when ever his mug apeears on TV5 during the TDF commentating more often than not the room erupts in cheers saluting a great French cyclist.



In some ways your very like Lance, bullying and attacking people who have a different opinion to yourself.
Maybe thats why we all hate Lance so much , theres a little bit of each of us in what he did.

Ineresting discussion though ...

If correcting someone who has an ill-informed opinion is considered bullying then what exactly is the point of a debate. Someone else asked the same poster about what this big picture he keeps referring to is and.....nothing, some silly reply about aliens or something. Says it all really.

If someone wants to ignore the reality of a situation in favour of their own agenda, I think that is called trolling which is usually banned on most forums.

Lusk Doyle

No

Hermy wrote: »

Maybe Lance is gonna tell us his cancer's come back...

That's not even remotely funny.

mirwillbeback

No

Rita1 wrote: »

No
2011abc, 3102derek, AlmostQuick, beardedmaster, bikerdude69, Blazer, BobMc, bombadil, bossa_nova, bradknowell, Cabaal, cannonballer, Chris Ryan, cityman 18, Clanket, couerdelion, CramCycle, Depp, douglastubbs, DrChristianTroy, drogtastic, Floralesque, forzacalcio, Gamb!t, gravid, Hungrycol, Inbox, Jefferson9115, JoeGil, Joekers, johnk123, Jonnykitedude, Laviski, Liam90, mattser, metalmessiah88, MYP82, nipper67, Pa Dee, peterk675, Planet X, Plucky Devil, quagmired, RidleyRider, robertxxx, Sane Max, Shakti, stephendoyle, stiffler123, strokeslover, supackofidiots, thebouldwhacker, Tinder, Unregistered., ViveLaVie, Wexfordboy89, ytareh
57 5.18%

Whats going through these peoples heads who voted NO in the poll that he didn't dope. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Have to be wind up merchants

petethedrummer

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

google doesnt tell you squat
Ive watched the tour in France pre and post Virenque... trust me when he was riding away from everyone on the hills no one was questioning his 'training methods' .

Well you were there and I was not. But he was investigated by his own authorities, barred from the tour de france and then banned from the sport. Were the French public screaming that this was an injustice to 2nd most hated man in their country?

Colonialboy wrote: »

And when ever his mug apeears on TV5 during the TDF commentating more often than not the room erupts in cheers saluting a great French cyclist.

I don't know any sports audience/panel that would boo if an athlete came into the studio (apart from some good natured ribbing on Soccer AM). Anyway he's not dull, so it could be his personality rather than his "achievements" that engenders the warmth.

Beasty

No

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Have to be wind up merchants

Some have certainly been "removed from the site" since voting;)

With others I suspect Fat Finger Syndrome, but also the poll was put up in August with many voting before some of the most damning revelations came out

Colonialboy

Yes, but he's still great

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

If correcting someone who has an ill-informed opinion is considered bullying then what exactly is the point of a debate. Someone else asked the same poster about what this big picture he keeps referring to is and.....nothing, some silly reply about aliens or something. Says it all really.

If someone wants to ignore the reality of a situation in favour of their own agenda, I think that is called trolling which is usually banned on most forums.

Whos reality ... yours...
yep now people who didnt agree 100% with you are trolls... whats next injunctions, dodgy phone calls, being ostracised at the sportif...
chillax dude ... and I didnt see anything in the posts that was ignoring the reality , people are just looking at it from different angles and in the context of other sports .

one does have to wonder where would cycling and the TDF be if Lance hadnt have happened. Im old enough to remember the cycling scene pre-Lance, did he just surf the wave as cycling grew in stature or was he one of the dynamic forces that rolled that wave along. ...Im looking forward to the oprah interview

Fr D Maugire

No

petethedrummer wrote: »

Well you were there and I was not. But he was investigated by his own authorities, barred from the tour de france and then banned from the sport. Were the French public screaming that this was an injustice to 2nd most hated man in their country?

I don't know any sports audience/panel that would boo if an athlete came into the studio (apart from some good natured ribbing on Soccer AM). Anyway he's not dull, so it could be his personality rather than his "achievements" that engenders the warmth.

Virenque was the French favourite before the knowledge of wide-spreading became public with Festina. In fact his popularity far outweighed his level of achievement in comparison to say Laurent Jalabert. After Festina, Virenque was definitely lambasted in the French media because of his initial denials and the silly book he wrote claiming his innocence.

However Virenque did eventually admit, took his punishment and came back afterwards which after all is what is supposed to happen. Whilst he was still popular, it was nowhere near the same level as before.

Comparing Armstrong to Virenque is folly because there were never any stories of Virenque bullying people or trying to buy off authorities etc, etc.

Hermy

No

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

That's not even remotely funny.

It's not meant to be funny.

EDIT: My Dad is currently undergoing radium treatment so I'd be the last to joke about this!

Fr D Maugire

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

Whos reality ... yours...
yep now people who didnt agree 100% with you are trolls... whats next injunctions, dodgy phone calls, being ostracised at the sportif...
chillax dude ... and I didnt see anything in the posts that was ignoring the reality , people are just looking at it from different angles and in the context of other sports .

one does have to wonder where would cycling and the TDF be if Lance hadnt have happened. Im old enough to remember the cycling scene pre-Lance, did he just surf the wave as cycling grew in stature or was he one of the dynamic forces that rolled that wave along. ...Im looking forward to the oprah interview

Well in this instance, my reality is THE reality. There is a world of difference in saying that cycling as a sport is treated more unfairly than other other sports in regards anti-doping than trying to make out it was only Armstrong who was treated unfairly in the same context.

The Festina affair, the Giro blitz raids of 2001, Operation Puerto, the Rasmussen affair, the Contador affair, Mantova investigation, Drugs for Oil, Padua Investigation and now the SKY reshuffling. None of these cases started as a result of the traditional testing procedures that are standard in other sports. They all started because of police investigations, tip-offs or media-driven campaigns. Is that unfair in comparison to other sports. Of course but it ain't unique to Armstrong either as the poster is trying to make out.

It is pretty clear now that Armstrong was never going to be caught using the conventional methods as he was clearly protected and had a fortune to which he could sue whoever he wanted. The Postal investigation started because of a tip-off from Floyd Landis, much the same as Puerto and other team-mates were involved, not just Armstrong.

Trying to re-write reality so that its seems as if Armstrong has been the only athlete to fall-foul of non-conventional anti-doping is just BS. Many cyclists have suffered the same fate but you don't have people on here whining about it.

Cycling fans have grown accustomed to outside forces doing the anti-doping for the sport and we are ok with that. It does irk that other sports are not held to the same level of scrutiny but at the end of the day if you truly want to see cheats caught, it shouldn't matter how it happens.

MPFG

No

"my reality is THE reality" - Is that a Kim Yong Ill quote ?

However you do make vaild points about doping investigatiosn in cycling being further than other sports and not unique to Armstrong

However Armstrong is now (whatever his sins) too much a caricature of evil in sport ....a bit of balance wouldn't go a miss

Reading Riss at presnt and there is a man I could easily hate

petethedrummer

No

Colonialboy wrote: »

one does have to wonder where would cycling and the TDF be if Lance hadnt have happened. Im old enough to remember the cycling scene pre-Lance, did he just surf the wave as cycling grew in stature or was he one of the dynamic forces that rolled that wave along.

What stature are you referring to?

Are you referring to the wonderful state of professional cycling?

Or are you referring to the huge increase in amateur racing/sportive and utiliy cycling of the last 5 years?

Fr D Maugire

No

MPFG wrote: »

"my reality is THE reality" - Is that a Kim Yong Ill quote ?

However you do make vaild points about doping investigatiosn in cycling being further than other sports and not unique to Armstrong

However Armstrong is now (whatever his sins) too much a caricature of evil in sport ....a bit of balance wouldn't go a miss

Reading Riss at presnt and there is a man I could easily hate

TBH, I am tired of reading about people moaning about only Armstrong being singled out when that ain't the reality of the situation.

One of the arguments in favour of Lance is "well it doesn't matter because they were all cheating so it was a level playing field". Apart from that being inaccurate anyway, as the evidence flows it becomes clearer and clearer that Armstrong still had huge advantages over his competitors.

Quashed positive tests(99/01)
Donations to governing bodies.
Forewarning of tests.
Reporting rivals to the UCI.
The latest is the director of the Lausanne lab being forced to explain how to beat the EPO test to Lance/Bruyneel.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lausanne-laboratory-gave-armstrong-key-to-beating-epo-test-says-tygart

Considering the advantages he had and the complicity of the the governing body, I see nothing wrong with a little extra effort being applied to catch such an individual. Why should the fact the had cancer mean that he should get away it.

Lusk Doyle

No

My, how you've changed, Dougal...



:pac:

Fr D Maugire

No

Yes, I seem like a zealot but I admit to being in the Kimmage, Walsh camp about this. It hasn't taken until the last years for me to figure out Armstrong was a cheat. Watching him being paraded around as some sort of hero all the while knowing he was a fraud was hard to stomach. Not because he was a cheat but for how he pimped out cancer for his own greedy devices. To me that sets him out as much worse than any regular joe who cheats to keep up or to get ahead in their sport, then factor in the manipulation, the bullying, the intimidation and the corruption and it sets him on a whole new level of nastiness very few athletes come near.

The witch-hunt comments make me laugh, Landis makes his allegations of doping at Postal to US Cycling who passed it on to the US Anti-doping authority. What did people think USADA should have done with the info?? Just ignore it or do what they are there for, catch dopers so they launch an investigation. How is that a witch-hunt??

The FBI only got involved because they happened to be running another investigation into the trafficking of doping products in US cycling involving Joe Papp, Michael Ball and Rock Racing, minor guys. Once they heard about the USADA investigation into US Postal, they widened their scope and started their own investigation into Postal, in particular because US Postal is partially a government funded business so if government money was used for purchasing drugs, that is some serious **** right there in US legal terms.

Lets not forget the FBI case was eventually shelved at the last minute and never seen the light of day. Nobody knows why exactly but it seems that political power came from above to shut it down, that is how much stinking political pull Armstrong seemingly had.

So it was the USADA whose job is to catch cheats that eventually busted the thing wide open but they are somehow the bad guys for doing their actual job. Witch-hunt indeed.

iregk

No

I do love the argument his fans put forward though. Oh where would cycling be if it wasn't for Lance Armstrong. Yes because the tour de france wasn't already steeped in 96 years of rich history prior to Lance's arrival. It was nothing but an open sportive until the great man graced the tar and turned it into the biggest annual sporting event on global TV. Even to this day surpassed only by the Olympics for world wide TV audience.

It also, in case anyone hadn't realised, stopped for a couple of years only to make a brief return ending it's failed comeback in 2010. Since then the tour hasn't official been held. The British media are falling all over themselves with Bradley Wiggins and team sky in 2012 but that was essentially the Orwell Randonee and Wicklow 200 combined that he won and the British public were lied to convinced that it was the tour de france. Yes indeed folks the tour de france, the giro (which he only rode once), the vuelta (which he only rode once), tour of flanders, amstel tour, tour down under, paris roubaix, paris niece, terrano adriattico, the world champion ships, milan san remo, tour of poland etc... all these never existed prior to 1999 and haven't existed since January 2011. When the great man retired, he took all them races that he never rode with him. Shame.

T-K-O

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

If correcting someone who has an ill-informed opinion is considered bullying then what exactly is the point of a debate. Someone else asked the same poster about what this big picture he keeps referring to is and.....nothing, some silly reply about aliens or something. Says it all really.

If someone wants to ignore the reality of a situation in favour of their own agenda, I think that is called trolling which is usually banned on most forums.

:rolleyes:

ill informed? He was a cheat and he abused his power, what am I missing. I've said this on numerous occasions.

If someone doesn't like an opinion they usually revert to the good old troll comment.

I didn't answer the last question because I clearly stated my point of view, no point rising to a loaded question like that.

You have a narrow minded view on drugs in sport, it almost sounds personal. The hate for Lance is strong and that IMO prevents you from having an adult conversation on the matter.

T-K-O

Fr D Maugire wrote: »

TBH, I am tired of reading about people moaning about only Armstrong being singled out when that ain't the reality of the situation.

One of the arguments in favour of Lance is "well it doesn't matter because they were all cheating so it was a level playing field". Apart from that being inaccurate anyway, as the evidence flows it becomes clearer and clearer that Armstrong still had huge advantages over his competitors.

Quashed positive tests(99/01)
Donations to governing bodies.
Forewarning of tests.
Reporting rivals to the UCI.
The latest is the director of the Lausanne lab being forced to explain how to beat the EPO test to Lance/Bruyneel.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lausanne-laboratory-gave-armstrong-key-to-beating-epo-test-says-tygart

Considering the advantages he had and the complicity of the the governing body, I see nothing wrong with a little extra effort being applied to catch such an individual. Why should the fact the had cancer mean that he should get away it.

Thank you, I'm glad we could agree on this issue

Colonialboy

Yes, but he's still great

petethedrummer wrote: »

What stature are you referring to?

Are you referring to the wonderful state of professional cycling?

Or are you referring to the huge increase in amateur racing/sportive and utiliy cycling of the last 5 years?

read the post I was referring to the stature of cycling .

If I was referring to the just the stature of professional cycling I would have said 'professional cycling' , I didnt so evidently I was not .

funninly enough as regards witchhunt .. if you search this thread YOU were the first person to use the word witchhunt .

So feel free (or anyone else for that matter) enlighten me as to where you think cycling would be if Lance had not come along ...

this is getting boring now... anyone who tries to look at the Lance issue
in a broad manner and questions if theres elements of it that were good for cycling, or maybe other sports need to be looked at or why did so many other cyclists not come under this focus, are labelled a troll, who thinks it was a witch hunt and that the tdf is equivalent to the W200.

btw before you fall off your turbos... Im not saying there were elements that were good, and Im not saying cycling is better off cos he came on the scene, Im just asking and im interested in where poelpe think the cycling word might be if he hadnt appeared on the scene
reminds me I must pull out my Pro-Cycling mags from the 90s and have a read it will be interesting to see what everyone was saying back then

Cienciano

No

Hermy wrote: »

Maybe Lance is gonna tell us his cancer's come back...

Lusk Doyle wrote: »

That's not even remotely funny.

Hermy wrote: »

It's not meant to be funny.

EDIT: My Dad is currently undergoing radium treatment so I'd be the last to joke about this!

The scary thing is, I'll put money on it that in the Oprah interview, cancer will be talked about as much, or even more than doping.

T-K-O

Colonialboy wrote: »

read the post I was referring to the stature of cycling .

If I was referring to the just the stature of professional cycling I would have said 'professional cycling' , I didnt so evidently I was not .

funninly enough as regards witchhunt .. if you search this thread YOU were the first person to use the word witchhunt .

So feel free (or anyone else for that matter) enlighten me as to where you think cycling would be if Lance had not come along ...

this is getting boring now... anyone who tries to look at the Lance issue
in a broad manner and questions if theres elements of it that were good for cycling, or maybe other sports need to be looked at or why did so many other cyclists not come under this focus, are labelled a troll, who thinks it was a witch hunt and that the tdf is equivalent to the W200.

btw before you fall off your turbos... Im not saying there were elements that were good, and Im not saying cycling is better off cos he came on the scene, Im just asking and im interested in where poelpe think the cycling word might be if he hadnt appeared on the scene
reminds me I must pull out my Pro-Cycling mags from the 90s and have a read it will be interesting to see what everyone was saying back then

Obviously I agree.

This post is common sense. We all know what the guy did, no need for another history lesson. However to completely dismiss the possibly that he raised the profile of the sport etc, is ridiculous and /or to accuse people of defending him for stating such a view, well Im at a loss

RobFowl

No

Lads/Lasses lets get back to the important issues....


Will i tape the interview or watch it live (not going to pretend I'm going to avoid it).


And much more importantly is it one for Leffe, Hoogardeen, duval, Red wine or else go native and have a Boston pale, Brooklyn lager or sell my soul and watch it with a Bud.....