Lance armstrong drops fight against doping charges

Dockington

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

Angel Heredia (supplied Marion Jones, among other Olympians, with drugs) interview. A bit long but fascinating/depressing.
http://www.pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=6611

Wow that is disturbing reading, I know the interview is a bit old but if Heredia's claims are true (that the top level of almost all sports is rife with performance enhancing drugs that in many cases he supplied) then it is quite depressing. Especially after watching the top athletes in the world with awe in London. I always knew there were a few bad eggs but thought that the vast majority were clean and just amazing for their dedication and skill. I still hope this is the case and that Heredia's claims are just an attempt to justify his actions.

fishy fishy

Jerrica wrote: »

So all diabetics should be ruled out of the Olympics by virtue of them needing to take insulin by injection?

Oh you. D+ for effort.

so some medications are okay then I guess.

If you are on steroids for a medical condition does that count too?

y'see how it gets messy

Who decides.

You are either drug free or else let everyone take their drug of choice and go from there. I personally would say let them all take what they want and it will be a much more entertaining sport.

Quorum

fishy fishy wrote: »

If you are on steroids for a medical condition does that count too?

It would depend on dosages. You'd take a smaller dosage of steroids for medical conditions, and this level should be provable by tests.

Seaneh

Usine Bolt used Memo Heredia as one of his trainers from 2010-2011, now that is disturbing!

Heredia changed his name to Hernandez and continues to work with elite atheletes, that's messed up.

StephenHendry

Lance is and was a true inspiration to many people from his fight from cancer to TDF champion, it is a sad end to a great career and we might never know the full story of what went on

Turtwig

fishy fishy wrote: »

so some medications are okay then I guess.

If you are on steroids for a medical condition does that count too?

y'see how it gets messy

Who decides.

You are either drug free or else let everyone take their drug of choice and go from there. I personally would say let them all take what they want and it will be a much more entertaining sport.

How would Ocular steroids for the eyes assist in a swimmer's performance? How would an anti-inflammatory - a side effect of which is fatigue- assist a cyclist? I really don't think you understand that there's a significant difference between "drug" and "performance enhancing drug". Some drugs even impair performance but are necessary for medical reasons.

titan18

Seaneh wrote: »

Usine Bolt used Memo Heredia as one of his trainers from 2010-2011, now that is disturbing!

Heredia changed his name to Hernandez and continues to work with elite atheletes, that's messed up.

Aye, works with Marquez too in boxing. Victor Conte continues to work with athletes too even after Balco.

A cyclist took drugs? I don't believe it.

Jerrica

fishy fishy wrote: »

so some medications are okay then I guess.

If you are on steroids for a medical condition does that count too?

y'see how it gets messy

Who decides.

You are either drug free or else let everyone take their drug of choice and go from there. I personally would say let them all take what they want and it will be a much more entertaining sport.

It's really very straight forward.

The world Anti Doping Agency (WADA) decides what is and is not allowed. Any athlete on medication that could be seen to contravene those rules declares it prior to competing and the officials decide from there.

titan18

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12712/Travis-Tygart-Interview-Armstrongs-results-from-August-1st-1998-will-be-stripped.aspx#ixzz24Smw9KQs

Don't know if this was posted but USADA said they'll release the evidence as the other cases proceed. Hopefully, there's something in there that can blow cycling open

Seaneh

StephenHendry wrote: »

Lance is and was a true inspiration to many people from his fight from cancer to TDF champion, it is a sad end to a great career and we might never know the full story of what went on

As someone who has survived cancer, has friends who sruvived cancer and has lost friends to cancer, I find lance armstrong a bit of a prick to be honest.

He says he "defeated" cancer.

No, he didn't, he survived it, cancer has never been defeated.

The language he uses implies that people who don't survive (or defeat in his langauge) cancer "lose". Which implies he is somehow better than them.

That kind of bothers me.


Also, he is a cheat, and he should just admit it.

martomcg

Theres alot of naivety here about drug use in top athletes. Its pretty much certain that Lance doped with multiple different forms of drugs, etc but then so did alot of other top cyclists.

The key thing i think people are forgetting is that he didnt just take a pill and automatically win all those titles. How is it he could win them while doping and other cyclists (who actually got caught doping) couldnt beat him? You think he had his own secret lab and was developing drugs that would enhance himself more than other people?

Theres this same perception in the bodybuilding world about steroids being cheating. And that it in some way nulifies all the extreme training all these guys to to be the best in their respective sports.

If someone told you that you could train hard your entire life but never achieve the no.1 spot or amount to anything (or any fame at all) and if they then told you that with your hard work and a "little help" you could be the no.1 in the entire world, what would you say? No? Bollox.

People will always cheat, its funny how its always an "association" that determines what "cheating is". These "associations" obviously are never biased or have hidden agendas?

4zn76tysfajdxp

Seaneh wrote: »

As someone who has survived cancer,

Well done.

engrish?

StephenHendry wrote: »

Lance is and was a true inspiration to many people from his fight from cancer to TDF champion, it is a sad end to a great career and we might never know the full story of what went on

As someone who recently had (and survived) cancer, I can tell you that his books were a massive inspiration to me. He has a fantastic fighting spirit, one which I tried to mimic as I came to terms with my own cancer. He definitely helped me get through it.

About a year ago I managed to get a signed poster and a Livestrong Jersey. His books detail the witch hunt that he had to endure throughout his career, there were always drug tests to take and he constantly had to prove his innocence. This news is disappointing and if he cheated and they can prove it (beyond the testimony of two guilty dopers) he should have his medals taken away, that being said, it doesn't change him in my eyes as a source of inspiration.

StephenHendry

it would appear he doesn't want to continue fighting the allegations made against him and lance is looking to move on and not prolong this any further. also it would appear that he doesnt believe the process of the investigation is entirely fair or just

WumBuster

martomcg wrote: »

Theres alot of naivety here about drug use in top athletes. Its pretty much certain that Lance doped with multiple different forms of drugs, etc but then so did alot of other top cyclists.

The key thing i think people are forgetting is that he didnt just take a pill and automatically win all those titles. How is it he could win them while doping and other cyclists (who actually got caught doping) couldnt beat him? You think he had his own secret lab and was developing drugs that would enhance himself more than other people?

Theres this same perception in the bodybuilding world about steroids being cheating. And that it in some way nulifies all the extreme training all these guys to to be the best in their respective sports.

If someone told you that you could train hard your entire life but never achieve the no.1 spot or amount to anything (or any fame at all) and if they then told you that with your hard work and a "little help" you could be the no.1 in the entire world, what would you say? No? Bollox.

People will always cheat, its funny how its always an "association" that determines what "cheating is". These "associations" obviously are never biased or have hidden agendas?

Well i for one would rather finish tenth and have a clear conscience than finish 1st and not have a clear conscience. The majority of athletes across the different sports are clean and just rely on hard graft and honesty of effort. But these guys you rarely hear about because they tend to finish behind the cheats. Im glad this superficial fraud Armstrong has been exposed and is finally getting his just desserts, its been an open secret about him for years now. Hopefully more of these 'top' athletes will be exposed for what they are now.

Seaneh

Walter Agreeable Quirk wrote: »

Well done.

I was only a kid, more to do with having good medical care even in Ireland in the 80's we had good doctors

engrish?

StephenHendry wrote: »

it would appear he doesn't want to continue fighting the allegations made against him and lance is looking to move on and not prolong this any further. also it would appear that he doesnt believe the process of the investigation is entirely fair or just

Thats the impression I get. I'm waiting to see hard evidence. I didn't expect to see him give up though, by giving up it looks like he is admitting guilt.

hardCopy

martomcg wrote: »

Theres alot of naivety here about drug use in top athletes. Its pretty much certain that Lance doped with multiple different forms of drugs, etc but then so did alot of other top cyclists.

The key thing i think people are forgetting is that he didnt just take a pill and automatically win all those titles. How is it he could win them while doping and other cyclists (who actually got caught doping) couldnt beat him? You think he had his own secret lab and was developing drugs that would enhance himself more than other people?

Theres this same perception in the bodybuilding world about steroids being cheating. And that it in some way nulifies all the extreme training all these guys to to be the best in their respective sports.

If someone told you that you could train hard your entire life but never achieve the no.1 spot or amount to anything (or any fame at all) and if they then told you that with your hard work and a "little help" you could be the no.1 in the entire world, what would you say? No? Bollox.

People will always cheat, its funny how its always an "association" that determines what "cheating is". These "associations" obviously are never biased or have hidden agendas?

The problem I have is that Lance had a unique opportunity to blow the whole thing open, but rather than use that he has been as guilty as anyone else of policing the Omerta. He's done all he can to attack and discredit anyone who ever opposed him.

Plenty of others have taken the more honourable route, look at Paul Kimmage and more recently Jonathan Vaughters.

Even if he had just kept his mouth shut and said "no comment" I'd have more time for him.

Seaneh

engrish? wrote: »

Thats the impression I get. I'm waiting to see hard evidence. I didn't expect to see him give up though, by giving up it looks like he is admitting guilt.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

hard evidence.

StephenHendry

engrish? wrote: »

Thats the impression I get. I'm waiting to see hard evidence. I didn't expect to see him give up though, by giving up it looks like he is admitting guilt.

same here i hope lance keeps fighting these allegations

martomcg

WumBuster wrote: »

Well i for one would rather finish tenth and have a clear conscience than finish 1st and not have a clear conscience. The majority of athletes across the different sports are clean and just rely on hard graft and honesty of effort. But these guys you rarely hear about because they tend to finish behind the cheats. Im glad this superficial fraud Armstrong has been exposed and is finally getting his just desserts, its been an open secret about him for years now. Hopefully more of these 'top' athletes will be exposed for what they are now.

The majority of athletes are most definitely not 'clean'. Absolutely every one of them that competes competitively is on absolutely everything thats deemed "legal" by the various organisations.

And your seriously telling me that if you had the potential to be No.1 in the world, better than 6,973,738,433 other people you wouldnt take it? To go down in history as the best on the planet at something? I'd jump at it with both hands, like most normal people.

Regardless of the outcome of this investigation it doesnt change the fact that he (Lance) still was the No.1 on the planet. No other cyclist will ever achieve his record whether they're on drugs or not.

titan18

WumBuster wrote: »

Well i for one would rather finish tenth and have a clear conscience than finish 1st and not have a clear conscience. The majority of athletes across the different sports are clean and just rely on hard graft and honesty of effort. But these guys you rarely hear about because they tend to finish behind the cheats. Im glad this superficial fraud Armstrong has been exposed and is finally getting his just desserts, its been an open secret about him for years now. Hopefully more of these 'top' athletes will be exposed for what they are now.

You never heard of the Golman Dilemma? It was a survey done in 1984 for the first time amongst elite athletes and was continued on over the years, and the response level was the same. Survey asked would an athlete take a drug that guaranteed them sporting success (e.g. Olympic Gold medal) but the drug would kill them in 5 years. 50% of athletes said they would.

nacimroc

StephenHendry wrote: »

same here i hope lance keeps fighting these allegations

Amazed it took this long to come out. Your telling me a 40 year old guy who just had cancer can fairly beat guys in their 20's who are doped up to their eyeballs. Your asking to be lied to.

Turtwig

titan18 wrote: »

You never heard of the Golman Dilemma? It was a survey done in 1984 for the first time amongst elite athletes and was continued on over the years, and the response level was the same. Survey asked would an athlete take a drug that guaranteed them sporting success (e.g. Olympic Gold medal) but the drug would kill them in 5 years. 50% of athletes said they would.

Do you have any scientific source or linky for this?

PieForPi

Despite giving back his awards, they're not giving back his testicle.

martomcg

Jernal wrote: »

Do you have any scientific source or linky for this?

Try using google......

http://michaelwaustin.blogspot.ie/2010/01/goldman-dilemma.html

titan18

Jernal wrote: »

Do you have any scientific source or linky for this?

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Education_Awareness/SocialScienceResearch/Research_Projects/2010/Connor_Project_Summary.pdf

Well, there's a WADA article

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/phys-ed-will-olympic-athletes-dope-if-they-know-it-might-kill-them/

A NY Times blog

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/43/11/871.abstract

That's a link to the abstract of the British Journal of Sports Medicine when they tested it on normal population.

Don't really have anything more than that unless you want more blogs and discussions on it.

Turtwig

titan18 wrote: »

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Education_Awareness/SocialScienceResearch/Research_Projects/2010/Connor_Project_Summary.pdf

Well, there's a WADA article

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/phys-ed-will-olympic-athletes-dope-if-they-know-it-might-kill-them/

A NY Times blog

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/43/11/871.abstract

That's a link to the abstract of the British Journal of Sports Medicine when they tested it on normal population.

Don't really have anything more than that unless you want more blogs and discussions on it.

Thanks,

I'd like the original paper. I can't seem to find it anywhere. All I'm getting is references to it but no actual direct reference to it. Leading to me question whether such a dilemma actual exists. It might, but I'm not finding anything that's a primary source.

titan18

Jernal wrote: »

Thanks,

I'd like the original paper. I can't seem to find it anywhere. All I'm getting is references to it but no actual direct reference to it. Leading to me question whether such a dilemma actual exists. It might, but I'm not finding anything that's a primary source.

Aye, I can't find the original paper either, but as WADA and the British Journal of Sports Medicine refer to it, I'd assume it exists. Goldman might have referred to it in his book, "Death in the Locker Room", but I've never read it.

Turtwig

titan18 wrote: »

Aye, I can't find the original paper either, but as WADA and the British Journal of Sports Medicine refer to it, I'd assume it exists. Goldman might have referred to it in his book, "Death in the Locker Room", but I've never read it.

That was the same author, JM Connor, though. I'd just like something else, but so far google and wikipedia are incredibly sparse. I might post something in the science or athletics forums to see if anyone knows anything else.

Thanks though.

cerebus

Jernal wrote: »

That was the same author, JM Connor, though. I'd just like something else, but so far google and wikipedia are incredibly sparse. I might post something in the science or athletics forums to see if anyone knows anything else.

Thanks though.

It looks like the survey may be in one of these - seems to be an ongoing series published by Bob Goldman and others:

http://amzn.com/0896511553
http://amzn.com/096314510X

Dempsey

The only thing thats bothering me about the whole USADA case is why it took this long for all these people to testify against him and the motivation for their testimony.

UnitedIrishman

WumBuster wrote: »

Well i for one would rather finish tenth and have a clear conscience than finish 1st and not have a clear conscience. The majority of athletes across the different sports are clean and just rely on hard graft and honesty of effort. But these guys you rarely hear about because they tend to finish behind the cheats. Im glad this superficial fraud Armstrong has been exposed and is finally getting his just desserts, its been an open secret about him for years now. Hopefully more of these 'top' athletes will be exposed for what they are now.

That's great but what if your coaches/doctors are telling you that everyone is using the same drugs, that by not taking it then you're going to fall way behind and you'd be the outsider in the sport rather than those who are doping?

Lance is most definitely guilty, you don't get that kind of improvement and longevity in that sport unless you're on something. As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, David Walsh said there wasn't much that would astound him but when he saw Armstrong flying up the mountain stage, he said it was slightly unbelieveable. And it was.

By Armstrong playing this 'oh, it's a conspiracy' card, he's trying to hold on to the last remnants of his legacy. It wouldn't bother me so much if Armstrong hadn't made a fortune from cheating and then playing the 'cancer' card when questioned at times, and in his own mind he's convinced himself that he's right and all those that question him.

And it's not exactly the best deterrent for future athletes with Nike and other companies standing by him through all this - Do drugs. Win titles. Get rich. Get out and live the rest of your life constantly denying allegations.

An interesting read, if you have time, and a real eye-opener for me was this interview by Angel Heredia (formerly of Balco) on drugs used by professional athletes. http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/angel-heredia-interview-sports-doping-1927491/

Most interestingly - with regards Armstrong not failing a test - is Heredia speaking about designer drugs:

Heredia: It gets around who can provide you with something how quickly and at what price, who is discreet. The coaches approached me and asked if I could help them, and I said: yes. Then they gave me money, $15,000 or thereabouts, we got a first shipment and then we did business. At some point it led to one-on-one cooperation with the athletes.

SPIEGEL: Is there doping at every level of athletics?

Heredia: Yes, the only difference is the quality of the doping. Athletes with little money use simple steroids and hope they don’t get tested. The stars earn 50,000 dollars a month, not including starting bonuses and shoe sponsorship contracts. The very best invest 100,000 dollars – I’ll then build you a designer drug that can’t be detected. Designer drugs are composed of several different chemicals that trigger the desired reaction. At the end of the chain I change one or two molecules in such a way that the entire structure is undetectable for the doping testers.

D_D

Wibbs wrote: »

To be sure cycling is very dubious for doping and has been for a long time. Back in the day, before the mid 80's it was mostly amphetamines etc to keep them upright in the saddle as the toll on the body was and is unreal compared to other sports. Especially back in the days of small enough money and near daily racing not just the big tours. Most of the greats in cycling back then were implicated, caught or admitted it outright. Jaques Anquetil a monster of a cyclist, who unlike your Lances of the world competed throughout the season and not just aimed at the tour de france, he said that all the riders doped(with speed) and that you'd have to be mad to think anyone could do what they did without it. Problem was a couple of them died from it.

The diff came from the mid 80's onwards. Speed etc isn't much of a performance enhancer. In the sense that there's no way it's going to turn a carthorse into a racehourse, it'll just keep the carthorse going. It's still a level playing field. Drugs like EPO actually improve physical performance and can do so markedly and different people react in different ways. Some can make huge improvements on that stuff and win where they otherwise wouldn't have.

It was as clear as the nose on your face there was something other than water in his water bottle. When you see someone built for spinting/time trialling hammering specialised climbers on mountain stages you think GTFO. When you see damn near all his ex teammates done for doping and he expected us to believe he as the team leader was clean, you think GTFO. When his name is connected with dopers and suppliers and "doctors" in a cynical drive to win the Tour for the US of A and his backers, you think GTFO. When you see him play the cancer violin or the anti American bleat to deflect the accusations you think GTFO. In short Lance Armstrong, GTFO.

He'll still get support in the US. The mouthbreathers among them will refuse to admit he dopes. Doping in sport in the US is as bad or worse than it ever was in the old Soviet bloc(they dope in baseball FFS), they're just better at covering it up and backing their dopers. Fair play to the few yanks that have kept the anti doping pressure on, this day will be a nice reward for them.

It's not just cycling either. Not by a long shot. It just had the beady eye on it because it was sooooo obvious. IMHO there are bugger all in athletics that are clean and near zero among the consistent winners.

Thanks for that post. You seem to have a fair bit of knowledge in this, whereas I have absolutely none but I still find interesting. What's your opinion on Phelps so? Do you think he's at it as well? And Bolt? I just somehow find it hard to imagine because they have so much to lose... But again, don't have a clue.

Seaneh

D_D wrote: »

Thanks for that post. You seem to have a fair bit of knowledge in this, whereas I have absolutely none but I still find interesting. What's your opinion on Phelps so? Do you think he's at it as well? And Bolt? I just somehow find it hard to imagine because they have so much to lose... But again, don't have a clue.

Bolt "trained" with Angel Heredia (working under the name Angel Hernandez).

Heredia is a chemist, not a coach.

Bolt doped.

D_D

Seaneh wrote: »

Bolt "trained" with Angel Heredia (working under the name Angel Hernandez).

Heredia is a chemist, not a coach.

Bolt doped.

Hmmmm, that's a big leap. And also si it not too difficult to hide chemist training partner? Does she train beside him in her lab coat and safety goggles? It's like saying 'Bolt watches Breaking Bad.... Doped'.

Colmustard

Paul Kimmage and the Lance Armstrong tussle was rather famous in the cycling world, Paul Kimmage never gave him a peaceful press question session.

Armstrong once gave the cancer cover story and Kimmage accused him of drugs and him been the cancer in the sport.

I have a tendency to blame the cycling authorities, it was only in 2008 when the tour de france descended into fiasco and nearly lost all credibility that the authorities reacted. The Tour is clean-er now. I doubt Bradley Wiggins is a drug cheat.

Good riddance Armstrong, but now if he is stripped of his titles, who gets them, probably the cyclists that came 50th.

opinion guy

Seaneh wrote: »

Bolt "trained" with Angel Heredia (working under the name Angel Hernandez).

Heredia is a chemist, not a coach.

Bolt doped.

Does Bolt have any need to dope ?

He seems to win races without even trying all that hard. Why risk it when you are that good ?

opinion guy

Colmustard wrote: »

Good riddance Armstrong, but now if he is stripped of his titles, who gets them, probably the cyclists that came 50th.

The drug dealer maybe ???? :pac:

Does Armstrong have to give back prize money ?

Dempsey

opinion guy wrote: »

Does Bolt have any need to dope ?

He seems to win races without even trying all that hard. Why risk it when you are that good ?

Maybe he doesnt have to try because he's doped to the eyeballs! :pac:

Colmustard

opinion guy wrote: »

The drug dealer maybe ???? :pac:

Does Armstrong have to give back prize money ?

Probably, but really that will not bother him, he is up there with the world's richest sportsmen.

When he was given a statement on some interview I seen today he was wearing a NIKE top, I don't know what that says.

opinion guy

Dempsey wrote: »

Maybe he doesnt have to try because he's doped to the eyeballs! :pac:

Well maybe - but why dope yourself to be that good - it attracts too much attention. If you were so superhuman with doping wouldn't you stop to be at at an only slightly better than everyone else level?

drdeadlift

Dempsey wrote: »

The only thing thats bothering me about the whole USADA case is why it took this long for all these people to testify against him and the motivation for their testimony.

Thats the interesting part.

hardCopy

opinion guy wrote: »

Dempsey wrote: »

Maybe he doesnt have to try because he's doped to the eyeballs! :pac:

Well maybe - but why dope yourself to be that good - it attracts too much attention. If you were so superhuman with doping wouldn't you stop to be at at an only slightly better than everyone else level?

Why work with a dope doctor if you're clean? I knew Jamaica had dodgy drug enforcement policies but hadn't heard about Bolt's before now. Sounds very sketchy.

No athlete should be working with coaches associated with dope, our own Rob Heffernan included.

If you hire these guys, expect everyone to assume you're dirty.

Dempsey

opinion guy wrote: »

Well maybe - but why dope yourself to be that good - it attracts too much attention. If you were so superhuman with doping wouldn't you stop to be at at an only slightly better than everyone else level?

Ego? Money?

opinion guy

Colmustard wrote: »

Probably, but really that will not bother him, he is up there with the world's richest sportsmen.

When he was given a statement on some interview I seen today he was wearing a NIKE top, I don't know what that says.

Lol - poor Nike.....they never seem to catch a break....

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/assets_c/2010/02/Tiger-Woods-New-Nike-Ad-thumb-500x457.jpg

heavyballs

Why not let the feckers take as many drugs as they want for next years TDF,probably see no improvements at all in time trial times etc proving they're all cheaters.

NIMAN

This is probably the most unshocking news in sport. Surely most people accepted that he was cheating and didn't need this to prove it?

Just makes you wonder how many other top athletes are doping as well. How many of the medalists in London2012 are taking drugs?

I say forget about dope testing, let them take whatever they want, and get on with it.

jimbobaloobob

Do ye reckon theres a sport thats drug free?