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Lance Armstrong being stripped of all titles.
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Then there's the people who actually have a clue, and realise that LA competed on a level playing field where everyone used something...
Ummm, if he competed on a level playing field wwhere everyone used something, that would mean that he also used something. You're agreeing with me...
The guy has been a role model professional. He's done so much good in his life,
it's saddening to see his name dragged through the mud like this when his only
REAL crime is being the best...
Ah now, here's the nub. If Armstrong was a complete douchebag, who hadn't survived cancer, and wasn't a genial, likeable guy, then people like you wouldn't be defending him. You're letting your emotions cloud your objectivity. I have read fairly extensively on this over the past while because it's an interesting case and, well, I like to read! It's pretty clear, IMO, that there is a huge amount of evidence against Armstrong.
Just answer me this: if Armstrong had nothing to hide, why not contest the charges? I know that if I was wrongly accused of something I would fight it like mad. More specifically, why doesn't he allow his samples taken prior to 1999 to be tested using the latest methods? Why...because he has something to hide.0 -
Ummm, if he competed on a level playing field wwhere everyone used something, that would mean that he also used something. You're agreeing with me...
Ah now, here's the nub. If Armstrong was a complete douchebag, who hadn't survived cancer, and wasn't a genial, likeable guy, then people like you wouldn't be defending him. You're letting your emotions cloud your objectivity. I have read fairly extensively on this over the past while because it's an interesting case and, well, I like to read! It's pretty clear, IMO, that there is a huge amount of evidence against Armstrong.
Just answer me this: if Armstrong had nothing to hide, why not contest the charges? I know that if I was wrongly accused of something I would fight it like mad. More specifically, why doesn't he allow his samples taken prior to 1999 to be tested using the latest methods? Why...because he has something to hide.
Refer back to my first sentence, you're not one of those people.0 -
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Monty Burnz wrote: »
And what about the poor idealistic clowns who were trying to race him without the drugs? Guys who may well have been faster than him if he weren't cheating? Guys that the likes of Armstrong drove out of the sport as they learned they couldn't beat the cheats?Yes it does, or at the very least i believe it should now be accepted for what it was. That's the disagreement. Don't think it's really that 'stupid'.
That's the reality of the top level, in a lot of sports. And to be honest I would struggle to believe anyone in the tdf (especially in lance's prime) is clean, they just wouldn't keep up, in my opinion of course
.. And to suggest that a lifetime natural rider could get to tdf level without ever having to overcome juiced competition only to then be driven out by big bad lance armstrong is also kind of unrealistic... 0 -
Ri na hEireann wrote: »Yes it does, or at the very least i believe it should now be accepted for what it was. That's the disagreement. Don't think it's really that 'stupid'.
So you think that would send out a good message? It's basically something like this - "Ah sure there was so many at it. He was obviously best at EPO-aided cycling compared to the others who were also EPO-aided. It was what it was and he's still the champ (of EPO-aided cycling). Forget about the few fools who didn't want it enough to pump roids in to themselves or have blood transfusions, sure they were never going to get near him anyway."
Yess! Exactly. Good message though? Probably not. But then again gatlin and blake medaled in the 100m and nobody batted an eyelid so who knows... 0 -
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What is the reality?That's the reality of the top level, in a lot of sports.
Which suggests that if there was a single clean athlete there he probably would have kicked everyone else's ass if it weren't for doping. But let's be sure the fastest doper keeps the title, huh?And to be honest I would struggle to believe anyone in the tdf (especially in lance's prime) is clean, they just wouldn't keep up, in my opinion of course ..
It's not unrealistic, it has happened loads of times - to two Irish riders I can think of alone. God knows how many riders from the other 99.8% of the world's population were driven out.And to suggest that a lifetime natural rider could get to tdf level without ever having to overcome juiced competition only to then be driven out by big bad lance armstrong is also kind of unrealistic...0 -
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Monty Burnz wrote: »
What is the reality?That's the reality of the top level, in a lot of sports.
Which suggests that if there was a single clean athlete there he probably would have kicked everyone else's ass if it weren't for doping. But let's be sure the fastest doper keeps the title, huh?And to be honest I would struggle to believe anyone in the tdf (especially in lance's prime) is clean, they just wouldn't keep up, in my opinion of course ..
It's not unrealistic, it has happened loads of times - to two Irish riders I can think of alone. God knows how many riders from the other 99.8% of the world's population were driven out.And to suggest that a lifetime natural rider could get to tdf level without ever having to overcome juiced competition only to then be driven out by big bad lance armstrong is also kind of unrealistic...
1. PEDs
2. No it doesn't. The best guys would for the most part still be the best guys.
3. Driven out by Lance in the tdf? Don't think so.0 -
What?2. No it doesn't. The best guys would for the most part still be the best guys. The drug cheats would still be faster, you mean? That's kind of my point. The fastest honest athlete in history couldn't beat them - so in all likelihood there were some clean riders who finished in the bottom half of the field who were actually the fastest non-cheats in the race - ergo the winner.
You don't think the culture of doping, as perfected by Armstrong, drove honest riders out of the sport? Then you are lying to yourself or very naive. Or can't read. Try "Rough Ride", or ask Mark Scanlon.3. Driven out by Lance in the tdf? Don't think so.
By the way, do you think that Ben Johnson was the real winner of the Olympic hundred metres in 1988?0 -
Monty Burnz wrote: »
What?2. No it doesn't. The best guys would for the most part still be the best guys. The drug cheats would still be faster, you mean? That's kind of my point. The fastest honest athlete in history couldn't beat them - so in all likelihood there were some clean riders who finished in the bottom half of the field who were actually the fastest non-cheats in the race - ergo the winner.
You don't think the culture of doping, as perfected by Armstrong, drove honest riders out of the sport? Then you are lying to yourself or very naive. Or can't read. Try "Rough Ride", or ask Mark Scanlon.3. Driven out by Lance in the tdf? Don't think so.
By the way, do you think that Ben Johnson was the real winner of the Olympic hundred metres in 1988?
With or without all the drugs in the world, i dont think a kimmage or scanlon are the same calibre athlete as LA. But hey, speculate all day.
Perfecting drug culture? How exactly?
I've already read that, thanks though.
I think ben johnson was the one unfortunate enough to be caught. Also being canadian may not have helped at the time given the actions and decisions that followed.
Do you know anything about drugs? And regarding sprinting how do you feel about blake and gatlins recent medals and performances in general? Should they even be allowed compete?0 -
Based on what, his TDF wins? Wasn't there something fishy about them...oh yes, all the blood doping he was doing. So based on something else?With or without all the drugs in the world, i dont think a kimmage or scanlon are the same calibre athlete as LA. But hey, speculate all day.
By winning a record series of TDF without getting caught until he was finished? By 'encouraging' his team mates to join in his doping? By making it impossible for non-cheats to compete?Perfecting drug culture? How exactly?
Is that a yes or a no?I think ben johnson was the one unfortunate enough to be caught. Also being canadian may not have helped at the time given the actions and decisions that followed.
Yes, I know something about drugs. Re. Blake and Gatlin, it may well later transpire that they are doping - at which point I will say strip them of their medals, and you will presumably say 'yerra let them keep them'. And what chance does an honest athlete have then?Do you know anything about drugs? And regarding sprinting how do you feel about blake and gatlins recent medals and performances in general? Should they even be allowed compete?0 -
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Monty Burnz wrote: »
Based on what, his TDF wins? Wasn't there something fishy about them...oh yes, all the blood doping he was doing. So based on something else?With or without all the drugs in the world, i dont think a kimmage or scanlon are the same calibre athlete as LA. But hey, speculate all day.
By winning a record series of TDF without getting caught until he was finished? By 'encouraging' his team mates to join in his doping? By making it impossible for non-cheats to compete?Perfecting drug culture? How exactly?
Is that a yes or a no?I think ben johnson was the one unfortunate enough to be caught. Also being canadian may not have helped at the time given the actions and decisions that followed.
Yes, I know something about drugs. Re. Blake and Gatlin, it may well later transpire that they are doping - at which point I will say strip them of their medals, and you will presumably say 'yerra let them keep them'. And what chance does an honest athlete have then?Do you know anything about drugs? And regarding sprinting how do you feel about blake and gatlins recent medals and performances in general? Should they even be allowed compete?
This will just keep going round in circles so i'll probably leave it with this post.
I agree 100% with your morality on the matter and i wish cheating didn't exist. However it does, on a grand scale where far more get away with it than are caught. I just accept it and hate to see great athletes dragged through the mud over it, for doing whatever it takes to be competitive and win, whereas you and alot of people don't accept it. It's a loaded topic thats going nowhere soon.0 -
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what I just cannot understand is how come he was not caught. how can he win so much over so many years and the suspicion have been there but no actual proof........and by proof I mean a positive test resulting in a ban not witness accounts from others who have been caught.
Also how did his teammates get caught and he didn't?
Are they saying his samples were actually positive but he had bribed the UCI to make them negative?0 -
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what I just cannot understand is how come he was not caught. how can he win so much over so many years and the suspicion have been there but no actual proof........and by proof I mean a positive test resulting in a ban not witness accounts from others who have been caught.
Also how did his teammates get caught and he didn't?
Are they saying his samples were actually positive but he had bribed the UCI to make them negative?
Victor Conte said to fail a dope test is failing an IQ test. It's impossible to be caught unless you do something stupid0 -
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Which bit? There are already quite a few books out there about doping in cycling. Tyler Hamilton has one which directly relates to this.
So does David Millar, an excellent book. I mean this specific case.'How I saved sport from itself by Lance Armstrong'.
Something like that alright
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I know right. I don't get itHahahaha that's hilarious :pac:
Aquarius34 wrote: »
Drugs ruin the spirit of what sports is all about. If some are cheating and others are not, then it's not a game anymore it's a fraud.
I really get annoyed when people lie about taking drugs and claim to take such titles as if they worked they way up natural . It's like, if you're doping and you go around claiming that you are naturally good at whatever competitive sport, it just makes you look weaker than you really are.
Well your assuming some are not. There's a certain amount of naivety in that as well as the assumption that an athlete on PED's isn't working very hard to be the best. I'd be almost certain the LA trained as bloody hard as any athlete to get where he did. You can't win the TdF by sitting on the couch eating corn flakes sprinkled with EPO. Not to mention all his competitors have been caught using too. None of that takes away from the fact he was cheating and should suffer the same consequences as others that have been caught but pro sports are knee deep in PED use as far I'm concerned. Also I kind of disagree apologists that say everyone is using so it's equal anyway. It's not. LA had resources not available to everyone and I'd imagine that put him ahead of most. I don't particularly like PED use but I don't see a way around it other than actions like this and hopefully improved testing in the future (now who's naive).Hanley wrote:I still think it was a bull**** investigation carried out as a witch hunt.
Was it really? He was using. He was one of the most successful athletes ever. Could the ADA's really let that go? You could argue the ends justify the means. Armstrong probably did.0 -
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