Prostitution to be made il/legal

RandomName2

There are motions afoot to make prostitution legal in Ireland (that is, being a prostitute, which is currently illegal, will be made legal), and to make the payment of prostitutes (which is not currently illegal) against the law.

So the vendor will be legal but the consumer illegal.

I mean.. I don't even...

This is in a bid to undermine people trafficking into Ireland, ostensibly. It has not been mentioned whether prostitutes would be liable for taxation under this new ... proposal

Something something something SWEDEN

pablomakaveli

Honestly cant see how this will make a difference. If they are doing this to prevent trafficking, what will this do to stop the traffickers?

Theres also the problem that groups like Ruhama often seem to greatly exaggerate the problem of trafficking in Ireland. How will this effect women who are doing this of there own free will?

Just seems like a lazy solution to the problem.

OU812

It's de-criminalising the women (& possibly men) who are prostitutes, and making the act of paying for prostitution illegal.

It's a very positive thing.

christmas2012

Honestly cant see how this will make a difference. If they are doing this to prevent trafficking, what will this do to stop the traffickers?

their logic is to get at the traffickers they hit the consumer,that way the business they hope will go down the tubes..thats the idea thus far

ShooterSF

OU812 wrote: »

It's de-criminalising the women (& possibly men) who are prostitutes, and making the act of paying for prostitution illegal.

It's a very positive thing.

Why not regulate it with licensing (vetted, strict licensing) and criminalise people who pay for unlicensed prostitution?

Thereby decreasing demand for trafficked prostitutes and therefore less trafficked people to suffer and then also allowing those who choose of their own free will to continue to make a living from it?

anniemcl

Legalised prostitution increases the slave trade in sex industry.

No doubt it's great news for anyone who can't get laid but it's bad news for eh...slave girls I suppose from poor countries and families who feel the need to sell their daughter off to pay some bank debts.

But hey...capitalism is the best.

Capitalism rocks for bankers with small dicks.

Why do you think men go to Thailand?

ShooterSF

anniemcl wrote: »

Legalised prostitution increases the slave trade in sex industry.

No doubt it's great news for anyone who can't get laid but it's bad news for eh...slave girls I suppose from poor countries and families who feel the need to sell their daughter off to pay some bank debts.

But hey...capitalism is the best.

Capitalism rocks for bankers with small dicks.

Why do you think men go to Thailand?

Eh is this in response to my post? Legalised and vetted prostitution would reduce illegal trafficked women more imo than criminalising the use of prostitutes by decreasing the actual desire for the black market sex trade. It would also allow women and men who wished to take part to do so with safeguards in place for both sides.
How you license and vet it I don't have details to mind but I'm sure we could look to other states who have such legislation in place.

anniemcl

ShooterSF wrote: »

Eh is this in response to my post? Legalised and vetted prostitution would reduce illegal trafficked women more imo than criminalising the use of prostitutes by decreasing the actual desire for the black market sex trade. It would also allow women and men who wished to take part to do so with safeguards in place for both sides.
How you license and vet it I don't have details to mind but I'm sure we could look to other states who have such legislation in place.

The solution is to stop forcing people to live under a debt based monetary system.

Then these women wouldn't have to sell their bodies.

Then fathers wouldn't sell off their daughters to pay debts.

BluntGuy

anniemcl wrote:

The solution is to stop forcing people to live under a debt based monetary system.

That's not a "solution" to the fact that there is a market for paid sex, and there are people willing to sell.

Are you against any forms of prostitution being legal or just the "slave girl" variety (which I think anyone reasonable is against)?

Joey the lips

RandomName2 wrote: »

There are motions afoot to make prostitution legal in Ireland (that is, being a prostitute, which is currently illegal, will be made legal), and to make the payment of prostitutes (which is not currently illegal) against the law.

So the vendor will be legal but the consumer illegal.

I mean.. I don't even...

This is in a bid to undermine people trafficking into Ireland, ostensibly. It has not been mentioned whether prostitutes would be liable for taxation under this new ... proposal

Something something something SWEDEN

It would be far better to having researched it. I dont understand your something something arguement.

My opinion on the matter is it would be a lot easier for the garda to police it if the buying was illegal. Also it would make sure that the forced prostitutes dont have there lives further degraded by being given a criminal record as well.

Let me make it simple. If you know that it was an offence to get caught looking for a prostitue you would be far far more careful about where you look and this is the aim of the measure. To make it less accessable and less cruel to the victum,

RandomName2

OU812 wrote: »

It's de-criminalising the women (& possibly men) who are prostitutes, and making the act of paying for prostitution illegal.

It's a very positive thing.

Can the prostitutes sue if you refuse to pay? :pac:

No really, the thing is farcical. Imagine the same idea with drugs.
Supermarkets can sell heroin, but any customer can go to jail for buying it. BUT if you steal heroin, there's no offense.

So prostitutes can legally profit from a practice which is in practice illegal.

It just.. I mean... I don't even know where to come from with this.

It's meant to curb illegal immigration - when actually providing a secure source of work for such immigrants.

I suppose the argument is that punters would be less likely to pay for the service if paying for the service was illegal; but it just seems such a naive approach. :pac:

Oh and Joey the Lips, the "something something sweden" thing is the usual argument that is prefaced with "Well on the continent..." that is really starting to grind my gears. EU membership? "Well, Switzerland. My case rests. "

GarIT

I don't think that something that should be acceptable should be made illegal to prevent another problem. Trafficking is a separate issue which needs to be dealt with separately. Making prostitution illegal to deal with trafficking is like making breathing illegal to deal with CO2 emissions. Trafficking shouldn't be brought into the debate on prostitution as its a separate issue.

However Legalising prostitution and making purchasing from an unlicensed prostitute highly illegal would reduce trafficking as it would deter patrons, reduce prices and decrease profit making it not worthwhile for the traffickers.

There are an increasing number of people than ever that see sex as nothing more than fun. There is nothing wrong with prostitution other than it is against some peoples religious and moral beliefs. If someone doesn't like it they shouldn't do it but they shouldn't stop other people that don't share their beliefs.

juan.kerr

Will prostitutes now be expected to pay tax on the earnings?

thebman

Is that not some form of entrapment? :P

The guy is breaking the law by paying for the service and breaking the law by not paying for a service.

What if he only found out she was a prostitute afterwards like some sort of 2 star hollywood movie like American Pie would do? Rock and a hard place :P

juan.kerr

juan.kerr wrote: »

Will prostitutes now be expected to pay tax on the earnings?

Sorry OP, missed your question about tax in the opening post.

Pawwed Rig

This is a crazy law and another way where men will be criminalised. How can a contract between two consenting adults be a criminal offence for one and not the other? Why should the man be the criminal. The drug analogy earlier is appropriate. Should we prosecute users and allow dealers to go free?
I am not claiming that there are no issues with the Prostitution trade in Ireland (and worldwide) but I think this constant portrayal of victims is exaggerated. The woman are already (presumably) guilty of a criminal offence, tax evasion, but they are still the victims?
It is another case of laziness on behalf of the campaigners. There is a problem with trafficking. So should we go after traffickers? Ah no sure just go after the easy targets.
Prostitution has been alive and well for 1000's of years and has been evident in every culture in the history of the planet. To think the Irish govt (who have been unable to manage anything for 30 years or more) is going to solve the problem is ridiculous.
A more reasonable policy would be to regulate the industry. Have areas people could go to and avail of the service. License them, tax them etc. Would Ireland be able to manage this? Probably not when you look at the mess we have made of other regulation.


Criminalising men is not the answer.

juan.kerr

This is all down to lobby groups and who shouts loudest. No ones going to argue the case that men should be able to legally use prostitutes as it isn't a vote winner.

It's a different story when the lobby groups bring up people smuggling, underage prostitutes, women being forced into it, victimisation etc.

It would be interesting to know what % of prostitutes chose to enter the profession of their own volition. I would expect it to be a significant majority.

thebman

juan.kerr wrote: »

This is all down to lobby groups and who shouts loudest. No ones going to argue the case that men should be able to legally use prostitutes as it isn't a vote winner.

It's a different story when the lobby groups bring up people smuggling, underage prostitutes, women being forced into it, victimisation etc.

It would be interesting to know what % of prostitutes chose to enter the profession of their own volition. I would expect it to be a significant majority.

That is pretty much nail on the head.

They want to make it so the woman is not breaking a law because it helps trafficking as the women can't go to authorities.

But they want to appease the Christian part of FG so they won't just let it be legalised.

So we end up with a stupid law that doesn't work because FG as a party needs to appease the Christian part of the party. They tried already with Gay Mitchell for president and the Irish electorate already rejected that part of the parties ideology but they are determined to ram it down our throats anyway to appease that part of the party.

Wish they'd just f*** off and form their own party and see how many votes their agenda gets on its own.

Pawwed Rig

My concern is for the increasing criminalisation of sex in this country and all the laws are directed at men. If an 18 yo kid meets a girl in a club and they end up spending the night together, if it turns out she has lied about her age he is liable for conviction as a sex offender. If the situation is reversed the girl would not be similarly liable. If two 15 year olds have sex the boy is the guilty one.
Now if a men pays a woman for sex he is the guilty one?? Have women ZERO culpability in Ireland?
Surely if we really want to go back to the good old catholic days and criminalise anything to do with sex both parties should be equally culpable?

pablomakaveli

juan.kerr wrote: »

This is all down to lobby groups and who shouts loudest. No ones going to argue the case that men should be able to legally use prostitutes as it isn't a vote winner.

It's a different story when the lobby groups bring up people smuggling, underage prostitutes, women being forced into it, victimisation etc.

It would be interesting to know what % of prostitutes chose to enter the profession of their own volition. I would expect it to be a significant majority.

This seems to be mostly down to Ruhama which are a religious group.

Aside from the fact that they will be biased towards only one solution in this matter due to their religious ethos there is also the problem that the media always turns to them to get their information regarding prostitution.

Also the figures regarding prostitution Ruhama give never seem to be backed up with evidence. For example, if we take what Ruhama say as a fact then trafficking is endemic in Ireland. Yet almost everytime i read about prostitutes being charged by the gardai in the papers they always seem to mention that the women were working of their own free will. This contradicts what Ruhama say as surely we'd be finding these cases of traffickingall the time if it was that widespread.

Rather than have Ruhama and other religious groups calling the shots in this matter, we should be asking the prostitutes themselves what they would like to be done.

GarIT

Laws are made to prevent a person's actions from having a negative affect on another person. A person that chooses to be a prostitute harms nobody. A person that chooses to buy sex from a willing prostitute harms nobody. That's why it should be legal.

Trafficking does hurt people but it isn't prostitutes or the people that avail of the service, that are doing the trafficking. Its like cigarettes, thousands are brought into the country illegally each year but this doesn't affect the transaction between the person in the shop and the shop owner.

iptba

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Rather than have Ruhama and other religious groups calling the shots in this matter, we should be asking the prostitutes themselves what they would like to be done.

There are prostitutions against the "turn off the red light" approach: http://www.turnoffthebluelight.ie/

We are a sex worker led association campaigning against calls to criminalise the purchase of sex, and for the health, safety, human, civil and labour rights of sex workers in Ireland.

People can make submissions through August 31st. Details are in this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79366400 .
I fear most of the submissions will be about criminalising men/purchasers.

goose2005

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Also the figures regarding prostitution Ruhama give never seem to be backed up with evidence. For example, if we take what Ruhama say as a fact then trafficking is endemic in Ireland. Yet almost everytime i read about prostitutes being charged by the gardai in the papers they always seem to mention that the women were working of their own free will. This contradicts what Ruhama say as surely we'd be finding these cases of traffickingall the time if it was that widespread.

Also borne out by this http://www.turnoffthebluelight.ie/information/brothel-keepers/ which shows that in 2006-09, 21 women were convicted of "brothel keeping", and just 4 men were. Many of the women convicted were essentially running a co-op.

Pawwed Rig

Do we know the origins of the turnofthebluelight site? I wouldn't like to support something to subsequently find out it is set up by some dubious source.

Seems to make sense to consult with the industry themselves rather than some old woman in rural Ireland who is never affected by this issue.

Funny story. My Dad was a Garda and he told me that the busiest time of the year for Prostitution was the Ploughing Championships. He said that women travel from England especially for it due to the hight demand for hookers.

pablomakaveli

iptba wrote: »

There are prostitutions against the "turn off the red light" approach: http://www.turnoffthebluelight.ie/



People can make submissions through August 31st. Details are in this thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=79366400 .
I fear most of the submissions will be about criminalising men/purchasers.

This is the sort of thing that im talking about. Not surprisingly the media never seems to even mention this organization in relation to prostitution. And they also manage to provide statistics and cases instead of the hearsay we get from Ruhama.

iptba

pablomakaveli wrote: »

And they also manage to provide statistics and cases instead of the hearsay we get from Ruhama.

Some on the Ruhama side provide statistics - I just don't believe them:

1,000 prostituted woman are available for sexual exploitation each day, 97 per cent of which have been trafficked into Ireland.
Ref: Irish Times letter, February 8, 2011

I'm guessing such a statistic is based on not classifying anybody (or virtually nobody) as economic migrants.

pablomakaveli

iptba wrote: »

Some on the Ruhama side provide statistics - I just don't believe them:

I'm guessing such a statistic is based on not classifying anybody (or virtually nobody) as economic migrants.

That "statistic" doesn't seem to match up to the cases brought before the courts. If 97% of women were victims of trafficking then most of the women brought before the courts should be trafficking victims. Yet it seems the majority brought before the courts are ones who travelled here of there own free will and work as prostitutes.

It does seem like Ruhama like to class foreign prostitutes who travel here of there own free will as being "trafficked". It's this dishonesty which annoys me. If this was anything to do with legalizing abortion or drugs for example a group like Ruhamas claims would comeunder more scrutiny.

Dannyboy83

Al Capone must be having a giggle for himself at this.

Ireland has the most expensive cigarettes in Europe.
Ireland is the cigarette smuggling Capital of Europe.
Criminals are making huge money from cigarettes which feed drugs/weapons and other activities.

Fuel costs have nearly doubled in 3 years.
Ireland is experiencing a surge in fuel smuggling not seen since the 80s.

Prostitution no longer an offence for prostitute, but is an offence for the consumer.
A trafficked prostitute probably now risks her life if she 'rats' her pimp out when caught - no excuse.

The market/demand will continue to exist regardless. Due to measures which will be taken to bypass the risk, the market will probably actually ultimately grow, just like the underground steroid epidemic in Wales.

No social stigma since it's all underground.
Underground = increased health risks for all parties.

Risk of getting caught means the consumer will agree to pay more money = bigger profits for the pimps = increased demand = more competition = more trafficking = more ruthless behaviour = more money diverted into other criminal activities.


Solution?
Stop passing laws which require humans to behave as robots.
1. Provide a legalised, regulated alternative
2. A legalised, regulated alternative means the demand in the criminal market collapses, as does trafficking. It will only increase again when the price disparity between the legal option and the illegal option is too great.

goose2005

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Do we know the origins of the turnofthebluelight site? I wouldn't like to support something to subsequently find out it is set up by some dubious source.

Seems to make sense to consult with the industry themselves rather than some old woman in rural Ireland who is never affected by this issue.

Funny story. My Dad was a Garda and he told me that the busiest time of the year for Prostitution was the Ploughing Championships. He said that women travel from England especially for it due to the hight demand for hookers.

I've heard the same about the Fianna Fail Ard Fheis...

iptba

I see the Labour Party are listed as one of those who made the submission: http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/2012/08/press-statement-56-organisations-submit-case-to-outlaw-payments-for-sex/

Also various trade unions: SIPTU, Communication Workers’ Union, Impact Trade Union, Irish Medical Organisation, Irish Nurses and Midwives Organisation, Public Service Executive Union committee.

[Although one member of SIPTU said here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80436184&postcount=85 they were never asked to vote on it.]

sarkozy

Can I ask: how many people contributing to this thread are not male?

I expect an insignificant minority. Not exactly a balanced discussion.

I've discussed this at length before in other threads. Many in this thread are scapegoating one organisation to avoid discussing the the real issue.

It's childish because the evidence for the efficacy of this approach is actually coming from other European countries.

The fact is that none of you have accurate figures for the structure of the sex market in this country because it is an illicit market. Therefore, many here are exploiting this to place an irrational and unrealistic burden of proof on those figures in order to preserve their preconceived beliefs. But while statistics are useful, more important are the personal testimonials from sex workers who have left the business for whatever reasons, because these tell us about what life is actually like for sex workers (male and female) in this country.

Someone here said, and many agreed by the looks of things, that the 'majority' of sex workers of their own free will. That's one way of putting it. Another is that people become sex workers out of desperation, because they have found themselves in a bad situation without the resources (psychological, economic, human) to adequately feed and shelter themselves - that family, friends, community, society and the state have let them down. If someone has evidence to the contrary, please correct me, but as a human being with a wife who values her body very much and shares it only with me, I suspect, as an average human being in Irish society, that this is not something anyone but the most unusual would choose entirely out of their own volition as an aspirational 'career move'.

And they're the sex workers who aren't trafficked which numerous United Nations reports (and reports from Interpol, etc.) say is one of the fastest growing industries, not just illicit industries, in the world.

So let's call a spade a spade and say that, in the sex industry here, the likelihood is if you purchase the services of a sex worker, you're either sticking your manflesh in a woman in very desperate times (and working for a pimp) or a woman who is a prisoner and an illegal immigrant also in very desperate times. (I would say different statistics pertain to male sex workers of various types.) But you might get lucky. You might get a lovely Dublin 4 girlie who's selling sex because she thinks it's a good career move. No, you see, prostitution generally is a business borne out of vulnerability.

So, what's all this about? This legislation. Based on experience from other countries, empowering women to report without fear of arrest, in the first instance, is a practical measure to get more data on the industry. This will inform more strategic and effective responses, whatever they may be. The second is, yes, to criminalise the procurement of sex as a deterrant because it as been deemed that prostitution is, as reality rather than theory has it, bad for the sex workers (and probably beyond). This is a complex issue because this legislation involves not only codifying a pragmatic response to a perceived problem which is designed to protect people, but it involves value judgements which reflects the state of our social mores, morals and political reality.

I believe strongly that on these boards and beyond, the topic of prostitution takes place in a vacuum. There is a tendency of posters here to begin with a priori the assumption that prostitution is a simple economic exchange, therefore eliding the moral issues (out of self-interest), and so when discussing the pragmatic, political issues, they become meaningless.

Full legalisation and regulation is a sensible consideration, like similar strategies to deal with other illicit cargo by making them legitimate. But evidence from other countries shows that this alone cannot solve the problem - as in the Netherlands and Germany, prostitution remains an underground industry, meaning that sex workers right now are in desparate trouble and, therefore, sex workers need to be empowered to get support when needed, and to escape if necessary.

So: I support this legislation (even if I despise FG's Christian/Catholic rhetoric). I think the very fact that it gets so much snarling attention from men (I'm one, too) means that the legislation must already be working!

Pawwed Rig

sarkozy wrote: »

Someone here said, and many agreed by the looks of things, that the 'majority' of sex workers of their own free will. That's one way of putting it. Another is that people become sex workers out of desperation, because they have found themselves in a bad situation without the resources (psychological, economic, human) to adequately feed and shelter themselves - that family, friends, community, society and the state have let them down.

This is true of alot of activities such as theft, drug dealing, attacking people on the street. It could be argued that it is done because the person was in a bad situation.

noone is claiming that it is something that is pleasant for the girl to do however there are many who do not partake in this activity despite having the same circumstances of the girls that do. it is not a pleasant job which I am sure will cause personal issues for the girl in question maybe for the rest of her life however it is something that has been with us for centuries and as long as the laws of supply and demand hold true it will be with us longer. The issue being discussed is if it is right to criminalise the men for this, a point which you barely addressed in your post.

I agree with you that people should be helped and should not have to do this job but even during boom times it was a huge industry and now with no money around who will help them? Everyone can get social welfare!

sarkozy wrote: »

Full legalisation and regulation is a sensible consideration, like similar strategies to deal with other illicit cargo by making them legitimate. But evidence from other countries shows that this alone cannot solve the problem - as in the Netherlands and Germany, prostitution remains an underground industry, meaning that sex workers right now are in desparate trouble and, therefore, sex workers need to be empowered to get support when needed, and to escape if necessary.

So: I support this legislation (even if I despise FG's Christian/Catholic rhetoric). I think the very fact that it gets so much snarling attention from men (I'm one, too) means that the legislation must already be working!

These two paras do nmot make sense when taken together. you agree with legalisation and regulation but support further criminalisation.
From a personal POV it won't affect me in the slightest but that does not mean we should not stand up for the rights of others. Seriously how can a contract between two adults be a criminal offence for one and not the other?

Anyway good post, it was getting a bit one sided here.
I realise I didn't address trafficking but I doubt anyone is arguing in favour of that which is an issue that needs to be solved at a higher level than criminalising the users. In fact I would have thought that this legislation would have worked against the average girl on the street more than the trafficked girls.

sarkozy

A considered repsonse, but I'm not writing policy, so you'll forgive me if my post wasn't professional.

Clearly, law does not have to benefit both sides equally. That is not the only consideration for legislation, for example.

I said I support the proposal to criminalise the solicitor of sex. That does run at odds with the legalisation and regulation of the sex industry. Except that when you assume that there will continue to be an illicit sex industry, legislation of the sort proposed is still required. This is what I was getting at. It would be a different situation, of course, because regulation could, conceivably, re-introduce sanctions on (vulnerable) sex workers who are working illegally. And, let's face it, those who would work illegally, in spite of a legal, regulated industry, would be the vulnerable people we're talking about.

Pawwed Rig

I would argue that the trafficked and therefore most vunerable will be affected most by criminalising the punters in that the industry will be driven further underground where it will get nastier. We should be shining lights on these issues rather than burying them

sarkozy

How would you propose we do that?

Pawwed Rig

Pretty easily. There was a primetime programme on it fairly recently that filmed a guy moving prostitutes around the country. Why can't the Guards do exactly what he did? Pose as a punter and do what they are meant to do ie Investigate and prosecute.

sarkozy

That's a tactic. It's not a normative framework, nor a legislative framework nor a strategy. Tactics come after those. This discussion is about changing the legislative framework which will then inform, e.g. Garda strategies and tactics.

GarIT

So you are saying that taking away someone's free will would stop them being in desperate situations?

Some people would say that prostitution is probably the best career in the world but I suppose I'm a man so my views don't count.

Pawwed Rig

sarkozy wrote: »

That's a tactic. It's not a normative framework, nor a legislative framework nor a strategy. Tactics come after those. This discussion is about changing the legislative framework which will then inform, e.g. Garda strategies and tactics.

So why not try using the tactics currently available to help people genuinely in distress rather than introduce new legislation that will be enforced on a piecemeal basis by an already (apparently) over stretched Gardai. The solution seems to be always new legislation. We have enough legislation. We need enforcement.

As I said criminalising the user is never the solution but seems to be a tactic irish governments prefer.

rodento

sarkozy wrote: »

That's one way of putting it. Another is that people become sex workers out of desperation

What happens to these people if you deny them this sort of income, what are the alternatives

GarIT

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

So why not try using the tactics currently available to help people genuinely in distress

The currents laws are too harsh, we need full legalisation and regulation.

transylman

One of the oldest professions in the world, existing to serve one of the most basic human needs, and they think they can legislate it out of existence. As idiotic and counter to human nature as priests pledging vows of celibacy.

Legalization and full regulation, only solution.

sarkozy

Well, then, QED. I've been served. There is no alternative. Legalise prostitution. It's only correct measure.

Are there any women on this forum? Women. What do you think?

pablomakaveli

sarkozy wrote: »

Well, then, QED. I've been served. There is no alternative. Legalise prostitution. It's only correct measure.

Are there any women on this forum? Women. What do you think?

Why do you seem to think a womans opinion is more valid on this matter than any mans opinion? I mean any women who posts here cant offer any better insight than any of the men unless those women work as prostitutes. Also not all prostitutes are female so that does not mean a woman can have more understanding or insight into this.

Ultimately the only peoples opinions who should matter here are those of the prostitutes themselves.

Monty Burnz

OU812 wrote: »

It's de-criminalising the women (& possibly men) who are prostitutes, and making the act of paying for prostitution illegal.

It's a very positive thing.

...because?

You seem to have left out your actual argument.

Monty Burnz

iptba wrote: »

I see the Labour Party are listed as one of those who made the submission: http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/2012/08/press-statement-56-organisations-submit-case-to-outlaw-payments-for-sex/

There's a tradition that anything the government does that is unpopular is ascribed to Fine Gael, regardless of whether it came from Labour or a combination of the two parties. I don't see any special reason why we should not carry on ignoring the facts here.

Monty Burnz

sarkozy wrote: »

Are there any women on this forum? Women. What do you think?

I have to say, it's slightly patronising of you to expect all the women to line up behind your position.

iptba

sarkozy wrote: »

I believe strongly that on these boards and beyond, the topic of prostitution takes place in a vacuum.

One could say other points in such discussions take place in a vacuum. For example, many men around the world sell their bodies in other ways to make money. For example, I was watching a Channel 4 programme recently following some UK women were working a day in the mine. Generally, only men work in that mine. One worker a day died in that mine. Men doing dangerous jobs are seen as responsible for their own actions more than women, and don't get the victim status women get.

Some people care much more about women than men in society. If people want to do this in their own time, with their own resources, that's one thing; it's completely different to enshrine it in our laws.

jill_valentine

sarkozy wrote: »

Well, then, QED. I've been served. There is no alternative. Legalise prostitution. It's only correct measure.

Are there any women on this forum? Women. What do you think?

I think that, in the stupid political environment we have, it makes sense to focus on undermining the demand - eg. criminalising the punter - rather than trying to blindly cut heads off a hydra.

However, my ideal solution would be legalised and regulated brothels as seen in Australia, which even have their own websites. Safe, clean and professional for all involved. I don't believe it should be illegal to trade sex in itself, however the nature of the industry means that it is prone to an association with trafficking, drug and human exploitation as things are now. Ruhama's numbers might be bunkum, but they are right about that. The problem is, you'll never get that passed in this country for another fifty years at least.

Pawwed Rig

GarIT wrote: »

The currents laws are too harsh, we need full legalisation and regulation.

The current laws are not harsh at all. It is virtually legal. It is just the organisation of it that is illegal.
Currently the only criminals are those who set up brothels, obviously traffickers (but that is nearly a seperate issue from prostitution) and the women themselves for not declaring their income to Revenue.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Ultimately the only peoples opinions who should matter here are those of the prostitutes themselves.

Now that would be interesting. I will e-mail that site and see if anyone is registered on boards

Denerick

There has always been prostitution and there always will be. Its the 'oldest trade' for a reason. The reason? Because people will find ways to sell their bodies if they want or need to. The state should stop pretending that its immoral or somehow evil and regulate it so that the prostitute is within the bounds of the law and afforded the full protection of the law. And also tax the hell out of it. The better off kind of independent prostitute makes more in a month than the minimum wage worker does in a year. The whole image of 50 year old transvestites underneath bridges in dodgy spots of town is wholly inaccurate.