Prostitution to be made il/legal

iptba

I have just finished reading "Discussion Document on Future Direction of Prostitution Legislation". I found it reasonably balanced. I don't know the literature so perhaps important points have been missed. It also mentioned the different systems around the world which I found interesting enough.

I think I'll make a submission.

The document says:

The Swedish Approach



In 1999, Sweden changed its prostitution laws to punish only purchasers or consumers and not sellers of sex, an approach that has been followed by Norway and Iceland. This legislative approach is intended to address the demand side of prostitution. The purpose of the law was to eliminate street
prostitution and prevent new sex workers from entering prostitution. The Swedish legislation was part of a general initiative to end all barriers to the equality of women in Sweden. The law was based on the conviction that prostitution is, by definition, violence against women, and that no woman voluntarily decides to become a prostitute.9 In other words, the premise is that prostitution is a human-rights violation similar to slavery and so consent is irrelevant. And prostitution and trafficking in human beings for sexual purposes are viewed as issues that cannot and should not be eparated. Catherine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin were influential in putting the issue in these terms on the public agenda.10 On this view, persons selling sex should be treated as victims of crime and should never be criminalised themselves. Society must therefore provide options for those engaged in sex work by introducing social and economic reforms and programmes making it easier for them to exit the trade and reintegrate into society.

I recall some feminists saying some odd things about sex and marriage e.g. that all penetrative sex is rape? All marriage is a form of sexual exploitation/instrument of patriarchy? Can anyone recall any details of such points of view/quotes?

BTW, one doesn't need to read the document to make a submission.

iptba

FWIW, new today:
Dr. Bill Tormey (Doctor & Fine Gael Councillor)

Legalise and regulate prostitution

http://www.billtormey.ie/2012/08/27/legalise-and-regulate-prostitution/

iptba

One can make anonymous submissions - see: https://www.facebook.com/turnoffthebluelight/posts/483700881648326

gaffer91

I'll just link to a post I made in Humanities to save myself typing it all out again. I will also link to other articles below detailing the true "success" of the Swedish policy. Info here and also in this recent post in AH.

iptba

gaffer91 wrote: »

I'll just link to a post I made in Humanities to save myself typing it all out again. I will also link to other articles below detailing the true "success" of the Swedish policy. Info here and also in this recent post in AH.

Hope you make a submission. I don't have time to go into all the points I'd like to make (as I only started last night and have my main work to do) - I'd like to concentrate on a particular angle that might not be covered* by others.

* Women's groups pushing for (generally) women to be able to earn money from an activity without fear of prosecution, while pushing that clients (nearly all men) are criminalised - how would they react if if was the reverse (i.e. men's groups/masculists pushing for such an unusual law). Bring in how some people want different sentencing for women, etc.

Treora

I'll be pushing on the fact that all the prostitution got pushed to Russia. Stockholm has a visa free 4 day ferry trip to St. Petersburg. Prostitution has skyrocketed since Swedish criminalisation. Also the state and dignity reports excluded that Denmark legalised prostitution when Sweden made it illegal.

Medu

I am fine with making it a crime to pay for it. I am fine with making it not a crime if women are forced into it. However what about women that willing get into it for some easy money?(Probably rare but this will probably increase the numbers).
It just seems we have a justice system, and it's not unique to Ireland, that treats women like heavenly creatures that can do no wrong unless they are mislead by wicked men. We already have a crazy law where if a willing 14 year old boy has sex with a willing 16 year old girl then he is basically a rapist but she is a victim.

Cheerful Spring

If women want to give sex for money that's their business. Only think it should be illegal to look for customers on the street.

FlowerBunny123

OU812 wrote: »

It's de-criminalising the women (& possibly men) who are prostitutes, and making the act of paying for prostitution illegal.

It's a very positive thing.

why?

It should be against the law to be a prostitute.

Monty Burnz

Nazi123 wrote: »

why?

It should be against the law to be a prostitute.

You ask a guy to justify his position without justifying yours?

FlowerBunny123

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You ask a guy to justify his position without justifying yours?

I don't think you should be allowed to sell sex.Simple as.

Monty Burnz

Nazi123 wrote: »

I don't think you should be allowed to sell sex.Simple as.

...because?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just usually expect people to have a reason for their position on something.

Rjd2

Monty Burnz wrote: »

...because?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just usually expect people to have a reason for their position on something.

Everyone should have the right to do what they want with their bodies, whether others agree with it or not. Its frightening that Ruhama a religious group of extremists are dictating what sex workers can or not do, without even speaking to them. Legalisation has worked elsewhere, but sadly we are probably 50 years behind everyone else when it comes to tolerance of sex workers.

iptba

I've just finished a draft submission. Would anybody be willing to have a look over it and get back to me with any comments/suggestions including on typos (you don't have to be thorough if you don't want to be)? It's 2586 words so shouldn't take too long to read. Thanks.

It just concentrates on complaining about the Swedish model. It is not written from a legal or constitutional perspective except that it quotes Article 40.1:

"All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law"

and talks about how some people want lighter sentences for women (e.g. Baroness Corston and the all-women meeting of Oireachtas members is mentioned). Quite a lot of it is about complaining that the approach is unfair to men. If you think you'd disagree with this approach [of mine], probably no need to look. One other person elsewhere has volunteered but they're doing their own submission so not sure if they will get to look at mine.

I don't want to take anybody away from doing a submission themselves. But I imagine not everyone will do one, even if one can do it anonymously.

Cardinal Richelieu

Will this legislation cover robots?

Cienciano

Nazi123 wrote: »

I don't think you should be allowed to sell sex.Simple as.

Why not? If the 2 people are consenting adults, what's the problem? Both parties are happy and it doesn't effect you at all. Should a woman marrying a guy because he's rich be illegal too? Or a girl who goes home with a guy after he spend the night buying her drinks and a meal?

murphaph

There are numerous countries that have very successfully legalised prostitution and in the process have regulated it and brought it out into the open, while making paid sex with unregistered prostitutes a serious offence (due to the risks of exploitation etc. being much higher in these circumstances).

Nobody should be under the illusiion that these countries (Germany, Australia for example) have no problems with their current systems, but nor should ANYONE be under the illusion that prostitution (or poverty or debt) can be successfully "banned". It cannot be made "go away" and in true Irish fashion we are seeking to brush the problem under the carpet, rather than face up to it and deal with it in the most pragmatic way possible that ensures the best likely outcomes for all.

iptba

iptba wrote: »

I've just finished a draft submission. Would anybody be willing to have a look over it and get back to me with any comments/suggestions including on typos (you don't have to be thorough if you don't want to be)? It's 2586 words so shouldn't take too long to read. Thanks.

It just concentrates on complaining about the Swedish model. It is not written from a legal or constitutional perspective except that it quotes Article 40.1:

"All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law"

and talks about how some people want lighter sentences for women (e.g. Baroness Corston and the all-women meeting of Oireachtas members is mentioned). Quite a lot of it is about complaining that the approach is unfair to men. If you think you'd disagree with this approach [of mine], probably no need to look. One other person elsewhere has volunteered but they're doing their own submission so not sure if they will get to look at mine.

I don't want to take anybody away from doing a submission themselves. But I imagine not everyone will do one, even if one can do it anonymously.

Ok, sent mine in. I had only got one person who offered to look at it [my draft] but they didn't get to read it in the end because a deadline came up.

E-mail address is: justiceanddefence@oir.ie. Even a few lines would add more voices to the debate.
Best to explicitly say you want to be anonymous if that's what you want.

ETA: If there is any place to post submissions, I'd like to know about it so I could post my submission. As I recall, they don't have to post all submissons/make them all public; I've a feeling they might not make mine public. Also, it'd be good to have arguments out there soon so they can be discussed and perhaps others may use e.g. in oral testimony, some of the points made in written testimony.

AlekSmart

Rjd2 wrote: »

Everyone should have the right to do what they want with their bodies, whether others agree with it or not. Its frightening that Ruhama a religious group of extremists are dictating what sex workers can or not do, without even speaking to them. Legalisation has worked elsewhere, but sadly we are probably 50 years behind everyone else when it comes to tolerance of sex workers.

For sure Rjd2,I get VERY itchy when I read of organizations or groups thereof claiming representative status figures like THIS ..

http://www.herald.ie/news/in-brief-support-for-vice-law-change-3215917.html

GROUPS representing 1.6 million people want vice laws reformed to criminalise men buying sex rather than prostitutes, campaigners have said.

As the deadline passed for submissions to the Government on new vice laws, the Turn Off The Red Light group claimed its awareness is reaching at least 44,000 people a week online.

Turn Off The Red Light, which has the support of 57 trade unions, human rights and victims' organisations, ex-prostitutes and emergency workers, said it has been greatly encouraged by the huge level of public support.

Sorry peeps,but there is No earthly way this group of groups can definitively speak on this topic for 1.6 Million people.

Claiming to do so only renders their position laughable.

Pawwed Rig

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Now that would be interesting. I will e-mail that site and see if anyone is registered on boards

There was no response form that turnofthebluelight site. My e-mail returned undeliverable

Daveysil15

So is this definitely going ahead then? They've been talking about this for a while now. According to the article posted by the OP, a thousand women are offered for sex daily through the internet, with up to 90 per cent wanting to leave the sex industry but feel they cannot. I find that hard to belief. Ruhama even stated that they don't know what percentage of prostitutes in Ireland are forced into it and how many are doing it of their own free will.

Pawwed Rig

I would wonder at the 90% figure wanting to leave. Is this a vague I am sick of this job want to leave or is it a desperation want to leave. Without being flippant, I want to leave my job as does every other person I ask in my office. Would that put me in the 90%?

Also I would not believe any statistics that group put out which I am assuming is where the Irish Times got their statistic.

Also from their website they claim 'The aim of this campaign to end prostitution and sex trafficking in Ireland'. I am not sure how criminalising it will do this. It doesn't work for drugs.

astrofool

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I would wonder at the 90% figure wanting to leave. Is this a vague I am sick of this job want to leave or is it a desperation want to leave. Without being flippant, I want to leave my job as does every other person I ask in my office. Would that put me in the 90%?

I'd imagine there's a difference between not liking your office, sales assistant etc. job and not liking random strangers sticking their penis into you multiple times an hour.

iptba

astrofool wrote: »

I'd imagine there's a difference between not liking your office, sales assistant etc. job and not liking random strangers sticking their penis into you multiple times an hour.

Of course, there are lots of other jobs, some of which have aspects to them that are not appealing to some. And if you don't have many qualifications/aren't fluent in English, or want to earn more money than one might otherwise get from some jobs, sometimes one has to take on jobs that have unappealing aspects to them.

Also, I don't think anyone is denying that some of them would want to get out of the profession. It's whether there are problems with the 90% figure or not, or what the 90% figure relates to.

Rigorous research would probably have scales of how much somebody wants to get out of a job so that comparisons could be made with other categories of job. And maybe control for issues like qualifications, levels of English, etc.

Pawwed Rig

astrofool wrote: »

I'd imagine there's a difference between not liking your office, sales assistant etc. job and not liking random strangers sticking their penis into you multiple times an hour.

I accept that which is why I said 'without meaning to be flippant'.

Even taking their 90% statistic as fact, that would indicate 10% of people are happy enough?
All I am saying is there are different levels to this that a broad 90% statistic hides.

I did more research on this group and they are religious group founded by nuns. I hope we are beyond letting the church tell us what we can and can't do again. Are we really going to get good, objective data when nuns are reporting on prostitution?

GarIT

astrofool wrote: »

I'd imagine there's a difference between not liking your office, sales assistant etc. job and not liking random strangers sticking their penis into you multiple times an hour.

Yes there is a difference, for some people the differences are different.

I would dislike the second option more than I would dislike an office job. As well as that I would dislike being a vet more than anything you have mentioned because I hate animals. Some people may like your second option more than other jobs and should have a right to take it.

Some people like some jobs more than others, I'm sure the majority of people would prefer to be a Footballer or Singer over collecting litter but all options are still open.

I don't see a point of criminalizing the consumer. I don't think that the person buying sex is doing anything wrong at all. There are issues that arise when it is someone that was trafficked but that can be regulated separately. Especially in the case of trafficking a licence system would work. Every prostitute could be made to carry a licence which must be renewed each year, and a valid visa must be held to obtain a licence. Then you make the punishment for buying from an unlicenced prostitute, 5 to 10 years in jail and you have made a big impact towards stopping trafficking.

Many people will disagree based on religious grounds or because they see sex as something intimate and special but they shouldn't be able to regulate for everyone else. Thats like me trying to stop you smoking in your own home because I don't like it.

Daveysil15

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Even taking their 90% statistic as fact, that would indicate 10% of people are happy enough?
All I am saying is there are different levels to this that a broad 90% statistic hides.

I did more research on this group and they are religious group founded by nuns. I hope we are beyond letting the church tell us what we can and can't do again. Are we really going to get good, objective data when nuns are reporting on prostitution?

Yes the 90% is a bit of an exaggeration. There's a huge grey area in all of this. There are women doing this job who are terrified for their lives, while some may even enjoy it, and everything else in between. For the women that have chosen it, they probably don't dislike it anymore than working in McDonald's. And if they choose to do it they can choose to leave it. A prostitute can earn more in a few hours than a person would in a week working for minimum wage.

The thing I don't like about Ruhama is that they have only worked with the victims of prostitution. I don't think they have ever spoken to a woman who has done it of her own free will. If they looked at it from both sides of the fence then maybe their facts would be more accurate, but because they haven't, their opinion is very biased.

Pawwed Rig

Yet they are the ones that are driving policy in this area without any input from sex workers themselves

Rjd2

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Yet they are the ones that are driving policy in this area without any input from sex workers themselves

Its the same in Sweden from all accounts, prostitutes are ignored and their opinion is not heard as they supposedly have no clue about their profession.

Below is a Swedish prostitute's opinion on her work, choice, soceity's judgement and laws.

Illuminating to say the least.:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D7nOh57-I8

iptba

"Is prostitution harmful? Nope, says Journal of Medical Ethics" http://www.bioedge.org/index.php/bioethics/bioethics_article/10218
That's a lay piece on it.

The full text is free at: http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/08/27/medethics-2011-100367.full.pdf

iptba

One person posted their submission to the recent consultation at: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80656423&postcount=98.

There may be other submissions around the net?

Daveysil15

So is there an actual date set for this or is it still in discussion?

iptba

Daveysil15 wrote: »

So is there an actual date set for this or is it still in discussion?

Still in discussion.

Monty Burnz

Rjd2 wrote: »

Its the same in Sweden from all accounts, prostitutes are ignored and their opinion is not heard as they supposedly have no clue about their profession.

Below is a Swedish prostitute's opinion on her work, choice, soceity's judgement and laws.

Illuminating to say the least.:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D7nOh57-I8

Very interesting, and well worth watching.

Pawwed Rig

I was talking to the spokesperson for one of the turnoftheredlight organisations during the week. The legislation has been drafted pretty much by this group.

The consultation process might result in minor changes but I would imagine the bulk of the legislation will be submitted as is.

Monty Burnz

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I was talking to the spokesperson for one of the turnoftheredlight organisations during the week. The legislation has been drafted pretty much by this group.

The consultation process might result in minor changes but I would imagine the bulk of the legislation will be submitted as is.

Then it looks like another classic case of ideology getting the better of pragmatism, and everyone suffering for it - not least the people they are pretending to protect.

SeanW

That would be disappointing but not surprising. After all this is a country where a 15 year old boy can be thrown in jail, given a criminal record and placed on the sex offenders register, for "statutory rape" of a 16 year old girl.

Between the religious-right and the feminist left, it's a case of the lunatics running the asylum.

Dandelion6

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

I would wonder at the 90% figure wanting to leave. Is this a vague I am sick of this job want to leave or is it a desperation want to leave.

The study that that figure comes from doesn't say. Analysis of that figure (it's actually 89%) here.

Pawwed Rig

thanks Dandelion. That is what I figured alright lies, damn lies and statistics

Monty Burnz

Dandelion6 wrote: »

The study that that figure comes from doesn't say. Analysis of that figure (it's actually 89%) here.

Thanks for the link - it would be interesting to look at that study in more detail. Is it available to view anywhere for free?

Edit - ah, found it here.

Right, looking at it, the first odd thing I've noticed is table 9. The study is based on research in 9 countries, and all of the other tables I've looked at look at the 9 countries individually or in aggregate.

But for some reason, table 9 - "respondents who said that prostitution would not be safer if legalised" - looks only at 6 countries. Even then, it appears that a small majority of respondents (54%) think that it would be safer if legalised. Why were 3 countries (and nearly 300 respondents) omitted from this table?

The Corinthian

Rjd2 wrote: »

Below is a Swedish prostitute's opinion on her work, choice, soceity's judgement and laws.

Illuminating to say the least.:)

Indeed. What I found most interesting, is not really related to prostitution but was her claim that prior to the law being passed, a request was sent out for consultation, resulting in 98% of respondents arguing against it, yet it was passed nonetheless.

If true, that would make the Swedish democracy very much the same as ours.

Dandelion6

Monty Burnz wrote: »

But for some reason, table 9 - "respondents who said that prostitution would not be safer if legalised" - looks only at 6 countries. Even then, it appears that a small majority of respondents (54%) think that it would be safer if legalised. Why were 3 countries (and nearly 300 respondents) omitted from this table?

According to the body of the report that question was only asked in six countries. It's not explained why it wasn't asked in the other three. But it's interesting that the findings are reported as "46% said it would be no safer"! Also, there is a very broad range in the responses - from 15% in Mexico to 73% in Zambia. This suggests a need for contextualisation, which is completely absent in the report.

T runner

iptba wrote: »

"Is prostitution harmful? Nope, says Journal of Medical Ethics" http://www.bioedge.org/index.php/bioethics/bioethics_article/10218
That's a lay piece on it.

The full text is free at: http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/08/27/medethics-2011-100367.full.pdf

I dont think he managed to convince many on his contribution to this "taboo, bursting journal".

Heres a scholarly article (on of many) on the harms of Prostitution. It quotes many authemtic reports. She describes the 5 countries report whiche interviewed 475 prostitutes across 5 countries: ( US, S.Africa, Turkey, Thailand, Zambia.) This describes how 72% of respondents reported physical assault while working as a prostitute, 63% reported rape and 46% at least 5 times.



People who make money out of prostitution use prostitutes to publicly promote decriminalising its use. They use them to make them money out of sex so obviously they will have power over them. Even still i believe people have met with the so called "sex workers" group although theyw ill be rightly wary.

Here is what independent Irish prostitutes have to say:


http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/learn-more/testimonies/

These are the groups who are involved in teh campaign.

http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/about/whos-involved/

A comprehensive cross section of Irish society

What groups are against this campaign? Do feel free to post!!

The profiteers from the sex industry? Some users of prostitutes? The odd disgruntled fella (im a male myself although not disgrunled) who tends to think improvements in womens and childrens lots are somehow anti-men?

Glad this is going to pass. Less demand=less supply=less prostitution=less violence, rape, disease, psychological issues after abuse, for millions of vulnerable women, children and men (usually young boys).

Monty Burnz

T runner wrote: »

I dont think he managed to convince many on his contribution to this "taboo, bursting journal".

Heres a scholarly article (on of many) on the harms of Prostitution. It quotes many authemtic reports. She describes the 5 countries report whiche interviewed 475 prostitutes across 5 countries: ( US, S.Africa, Turkey, Thailand, Zambia.) This describes how 72% of respondents reported physical assault while working as a prostitute, 63% reported rape and 46% at least 5 times.



People who make money out of prostitution use prostitutes to publicly promote decriminalising its use. They use them to make them money out of sex so obviously they will have power over them. Even still i believe people have met with the so called "sex workers" group although theyw ill be rightly wary.

Here is what independent Irish prostitutes have to say:


http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/learn-more/testimonies/

These are the groups who are involved in teh campaign.

http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/about/whos-involved/

A comprehensive cross section of Irish society

What groups are against this campaign? Do feel free to post!!

The profiteers from the sex industry? Some users of prostitutes? The odd disgruntled fella (im a male myself although not disgrunled) who tends to think improvements in womens and childrens lots are somehow anti-men?

You may want to note that in the 9 country study that covers those countries and more, even though those putting the questions had a clear anti-prostitution agenda, a majority of the sex workers said that they would be safer if prostitution was legalised.

I presume you also have not watched the interview with the Swedish sex worker?

Glad this is going to pass. Less demand=less supply=less prostitution=less violence, rape, disease, psychological issues after abuse, for millions of vulnerable women, children and men (usually young boys).

Yes, just like making drugs illegal has eliminated drug abuse, and how prohibition in America eliminated drinking and reduced crime...

Pawwed Rig

I think you will find that people here would prefer an open debate on the issue rather than rely on the sources that you listed.

For example how members in the ICTU have even heard about the campaign that they are supposedly supporting

I am not sure why you think demand will decrease just because it is criminalised?

T runner

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You may want to note that in the 9 country study that covers those countries and more, even though those putting the questions had a clear anti-prostitution agenda, a majority of the sex workers said that they would be safer if prostitution was legalised.

This what the study says:

95% experienced sexual harrasment which in the US would be legally sanctionable in a diferent job.

65-95% sexuallya ssaulted as children

70-75% physically assaulted in prostitution

60-65% raped in prostitution

75% homeless at some point

89% wanted to escape prostitution

68% experienced post traumatic stress disorder (severity similar to combat victims of battered women seeking shelter)

88% experienced verbal abuse and social contempt.



Despite these statistics with women desperate for any change in their circumstances: only 34% thought that prostitution should be made legal, and 46% thought they would be no safer if this was so.

How can anyone still claim that buying sex should be still be legal? Why should we not crimilaise the bastards (clients) who abuse vulnerable women as the figures above tell us?

I presume you also have not watched the interview with the Swedish sex worker?

I choose evidence to inform my opinion from bona fida sources. Pimps and Johns use prostitutes tactically in interviews to promote their legalisation alternative to protect their profit against the fall in business inevitable after legalisation.

Id rather listen to the 875 listed above than the 1 (no doubt vulnerable woman also) probably being used by her scum employers.

Yes, just like making drugs illegal has eliminated drug abuse, and how prohibition in America eliminated drinking and reduced crime...

Clients are not addicted to buying prostitutes, beating them and raping them are they? The fear of being caught will reduce demand significantly and drive public opinion against the "industry" as people become educated to the true nature of abuse and degradation againt vulnerable people that is prostitution .

Monty Burnz

T runner wrote: »

This what the study says:

95% experienced sexual harrasment which in the US would be legally sanctionable in a diferent job.

65-95% sexuallya ssaulted as children

70-75% physically assaulted in prostitution

60-65% raped in prostitution

75% homeless at some point

89% wanted to escape prostitution

68% experienced post traumatic stress disorder (severity similar to combat victims of battered women seeking shelter)

88% experienced verbal abuse and social contempt.

What has this got to do with whether or not it should be legalised??

T runner wrote: »

Despite these statistics with women desperate for any change in their circumstances: only 34% thought that prostitution should be made legal, and 46% thought they would be no safer if this was so.

Another misrepresentation - of a list of things that they 'needed', 34% said they needed prostitution legalised. It is not clear how many options they were allowed to pick from this list.

And, as you point out, a majority of prostitutes said they would be safer if it was legalised.

T runner wrote: »

I choose evidence to inform my opinion from bona fida sources. Pimps and Johns use prostitutes tactically in interviews to promote their legalisation alternative to protect their profit against the fall in business inevitable after legalisation.

Id rather listen to the 875 listed above than the 1 (no doubt vulnerable woman also) probably being used by her scum employers.

So you choose to listen to things that confirm your prejudice, and ignore evidence that challenges your prejudice? Wow, you are like a Creationist. Well played.

Funny, the woman in the video talks about people like you who endanger sex workers.

T runner wrote: »

Clients are not addicted to buying prostitutes, beating them and raping them are they? The fear of being caught will reduce demand significantly and drive public opinion against the "industry" as people become educated to the true nature of abuse and degradation againt vulnerable people that is prostitution .

And the American public were not all addicted to alcohol in the 1920s. But prohibition did nothing to stop people drinking, had a very negative impact on public health, cost many lives and caused criminality to flourish.

Remind you of anything?

damon671

Despite these statistics with women desperate for any change in their circumstances: only 34% thought that prostitution should be made legal, and 46% thought they would be no safer if this was so.

This is just from my point of view. Technically, there's nothing wrong with prostitution. It's just the moral values. They are not hurting anyone, thus I think it should be made legal.

Dandelion6

T runner wrote: »

People who make money out of prostitution use prostitutes to publicly promote decriminalising its use. They use them to make them money out of sex so obviously they will have power over them.

What makes you assume the sex workers speaking out against the law are being used by someone else? Is it because they're saying something you don't agree with?

Also, you might want to read about the effects of the Swedish law on people who make money out of prostitution. This is from a report by the Swedish National Board of Health and Welfare:

According to one informant in Göteborg, there are probably more pimps involved in prostitution nowadays. The informant says the law against purchasing sexual services has resulted in a larger role and market for pimps, since prostitution cannot take place as openly.

A woman engaged in indoor prostitution in Göteborg relates that when the law took effect in 1999, about ten women engaged in prostitution from various Eastern European countries approached her business because they wanted to hide indoors. Informants from the Stockholm Prostitution Centre also mention that the law has opened the door to middlemen (pimps), because it has become more difficult for sellers and buyers of sexual services to make direct contact with one another.

Whereas there doesn't seem to be any evidence that this has happened where sex work has actually been decriminalised, in New Zealand and New South Wales.

T runner wrote: »

Less demand=less supply

Not necessarily.

As for who opposes the campaign, not many in Ireland, but that's more to do with Irish conservatism and the influence of certain powerful societal groups. Globally it's a different story, especially in the HIV/AIDS sector where most of the leading organisations would support decriminalisation.

AlekSmart

Dandelion6 wrote: »

What makes you assume the sex workers speaking out against the law are being used by someone else? Is it because they're saying something you don't agree with?

As for who opposes the campaign, not many in Ireland, but that's more to do with Irish conservatism and the influence of certain powerful societal groups. Globally it's a different story, especially in the HIV/AIDS sector where most of the leading organisations would support decriminalisation.

With this motley crue of campaigners now sensing ultimate victory in their crusade to dominate and direct Irish Socio-Sexual attitudes,I'd have to be concerned about where they turn their attention to next.

The ease with which they appear to have pushed their particular belief-set through will doubtless set many of their number thinking of the next step.

Just when we thought we had come through the dark ages of moral jackbootism,this creepy stuff comes back to haunt us...and those whom this group claim to be concerned about.....:o