Irish Gun Control - To Strict?

codex1

Blay wrote: »

You can own them if you have a reason

There are several AR15 pattern rifles licenced in Ireland at the moment, go talk to Grizzly45 over on the shooting forum he owns a Remington R25 in .243.

NO I cannot by a barrett, .45 ACP or DE .50 in Ireland.

MadsL

crazy cabbage wrote: »

1: Protection of you home
This is a seemingly logical point. keep you home safe. yea?
The problem is that guns are mostly just able to be used as a scar tactic of criminals rather than being any good for actula defense.

It has been said that the sound of a gun owner simply racking the slide on a 12 gauge generally makes intruders disappear. I'd call that a win.

That is presuming that you could get to your gun.

Assuming you are asleep, one of these secures both the gun from little fingers and has it accessible and loaded in a second.

I would seriely dout the you intruder will let you go walk about in you house so you can go get a gun.

What do/would you take with you if you hear a noise downstairs at night?

This study links guns kept in homes to much higher homicide rate in children.

That study shows the rates for states with more guns, not individual gun ownership linked to gun deaths. It is a bit like saying that there are more traffic accidents involving children in Chicago rather than Amish communities. Well, duh.

What do you say to that. OOOOo well i keep my gun in a gun case. Well it isn't much good if someone breaks in then is it. They are not going to wait around while you open you big padlock box.

Linked above to instant access gun safe.

guns creat more problems than they sovle

In all the examples above you have shown that you may not get to your gun, but in cases where you are able to defend yourself would you rather have that in your hands or not. Be honest with yourself.

2: Self defence
Why not learn a marital art if you are so worried about self defence. You can use that anywhere even if the county you happen to be in forbids guns

Because the physical ability to use a gun is pretty straightforward. My neighbours are in their 80s, keep a small .380 on the nightstand, that gives them some fighting chance if they have to use it. They are not physically able to defend themselves against attack; the gun levels the playing field somewhat.

Better yet why not have a debate about tasers. (should have put this is point 1 aswell) They will render your opponent useless while you can call the gards. They will be there by the time he come round. if not tase him again

You are aware just how difficult it is to taze a moving target. Tazers are used mainly for non-lethal use in police situations where the target is surrounded but unwilling to cooperate. Tazers are useless to home-defence.

3: Criminals
first very few have guns.

Err, what? Are you serious?

the ones that do may have a little more power but that has never stoped them in the past.

Sorry, what now? Never stopped, when have criminals ever been unarmed???

In america where the 'good' people have guns too there is still a very high rate of crime.

Yes, that is generally why people carry or own guns in the US. Have you a solution for making guns or crime diasappear. I'd love to hear it.
Crime rates are dropping in the US, but gun ownership is on the increase. I might draw a conclusion from that, but statistics can be misleading.

Guns are bad.

I'm tempted to say M'kay.

They are used for killing.

That is what they are designed to do. They tell me using a handgun as a hammer is dangerous. They are designed for killing what threatens you, that could be the 'bad guy' or for protection in remote areas against snakes or wild animals, or for vermin control. They are also used to put meat in the pot.

why fight evil with evil and let good people get hurt.

I once saw a hippy girl trying to stop a knife fight by playing a flute. It was quite funny, but delusional.

I would rather america takes steps towards a better society rather than reinforce outdated ignorance

Oddly enough, that is basically what America is striving towards. However, it still has principles or self-reliance and defending your family and neighbours. If you take a good look at it's history you might understand why.

Guns need to be abolished and peace promoted

Great, I'll let my local drug cartel know. They'll be thrilled to stop carrying around those heavy guns.

christmas2012

"nature of a gun is to harm an individual" - really? Because guns I use only harm paper targets & the occasional watermelon ;-)

okay so what about handguns what is their main purpose of design its not long arrow shooting for deer etc..its for shooting people(or self defence if you want to word it that way..)

thankfully there are genuine gun enthusiasts who only use it for sporting ie clay pigeon shooting or shooting board target practice for skill etc..but if it comes loose and the laws are laxed for everyone in ireland.....we will have big,big problems all it takes is one pissed off or mental person..

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

NO I cannot by a barrett, .45 ACP or DE .50 in Ireland.

As I said to you several pages ago: Stay in the US. If your firearms rule your life to the extent they clearly do, then stay where you can own all the firearms you like. Nobody here cares about this issue as much as you do, we don't want desert eagles and if you do then you know what to do.

Go moan on a British forum they can't own any pistols and aren't allowed CF semi auto rifles.

garv123

codex1 wrote: »

NO I cannot by a barrett, .45 ACP or DE .50 in Ireland.

You can buy the barret yes, when you prove your valid reason for owning it and meet the needed house security.

The other 2 We've all said no you cant.. The current government were meant to look into changing that again after the last governments anti shooting agenda. Pre 2008 you could own CF pistols. You didn't know that when you started your thread either.

CF pistols may change again in the coming years but the licencing of self defence wont be changing and all owners will have to be members of target shooting clubs.

codex1

crazy cabbage wrote: »

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime
here is another stastic from the same wedsite as you took yours. Shows america has the highest crime rates by far. doesn't mention guns but i wounder what might have caused america to have twice the crime rate than its nearest 'competator'




No. i was saying if people are so worried about there safty then why not learn self defence. Wouldn't work in america becouse ye already have that many guns circulating but in ireland where there is very few i would think that is enough

Tasers are worse than guns. I dont see why. Why cant they be highly regualated and only given to people who are seriesly worried about there safty and are sane.
You dont want to get close enough to use a taser but if someone breaks into you house they are not going to be a million miles away. If you can shoot them you will be able to taser them (unless you live in a mansion)

yes people can hunt and whatever. No objection and under current law that is possible

You also ignored some of my points indication the corralation between child homicide/susicide/death with guns lieing around the house

I respect your opinion, but I don't think hand to hand combat is practical for home defense in any country, there are just to many variables & risks involved.

Tasers are worse, because you have to get in real close to use them, they are mostly single use & a guy rocking on a meth trip might go down, but he will get right back up again but with major rage - what then? You better hope the taser is out of juice so it won't hurt when it sticks it up your ass ;-)

Also - how can I use a taser to go hunting or use down at the pistal range?

The problem here is that you are not required to own a gun safe & that is how kids get access to them, I disagree with this. Guns should never be loaded except when about to be fired & always locked in a safe at home, gun safety 101.

clashburke

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055749811

read the legal links external to boards.ie section. it gives all the Acts and S.I relevant to Irish gun laws.

Prove that you have a valid reason to own a gun in a court case and you might just get your .50cal.:rolleyes:

The RKBA is an American right and i hope to never see it in Ireland. Gun ownership is a privilege given to the responsible members of society if they wish to avail of it.

Finally under the CRIMINAL LAW (DEFENCE AND THE DWELLING) ACT 2011 a person in fear of their safety/family's safety/safety of goods may use reasonable force to prevent this feared danger. This is surely enough with out telling people to shoot intruders on sight as you seem to be implying.

codex1

crazy cabbage wrote: »

I am glad we are not like america. there is so much wrong with that country. If you want to own weapons designed to kill even more efficently than the ones you can legly get here you can stay in america.

I for one do not want a same crazy idot with a gun under his pillow in my neighborhood

Designed to kill - please stop being a drama queen. Opinions like this are bread from ignorance & fear.

The VAST majority of guns in my local gun store are for sporting purposes, yes they could be used on people, so could just about anything you currently have in your kitchen.

codex1

Blay wrote: »

As I said to you several pages ago: Stay in the US. If your firearms rule your life to the extent they clearly do, then stay where you can own all the firearms you like. Nobody here cares about this issue as much as you do, we don't want desert eagles and if you do then you know what to do.

Go moan on a British forum they can't own any pistols and aren't allowed CF semi auto rifles.

Go troll or sulk somewhere else

You've added nothing to this discussion, crying and whining "stay in america" is not helpful. 11 pages of discussion clearly shows that people do care about this issue.

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

Go troll or sulk somewhere else

You've added nothing to this discussion, crying and whining "stay in america" is not helpful. 11 pages of discussion clearly shows that people do care about this issue.

I'm sulking? :pac: You're the one crying because ya can't buy an AR15 over the counter in Ireland:pac: You're afraid the boogey man is gonna jump out from under your bed and you'll need a gun to hand at all times:pac:

This thread has been 11 pages of you posting sh1te and being corrected by the same people over and over.

garv123

codex1 wrote: »

Go troll or sulk somewhere else

You've added nothing to this discussion, crying and whining "stay in america" is not helpful. 11 pages of discussion clearly shows that people do care about this issue.

11 pages of you talking crap about laws you have no clue about and disagree with people who actually know the laws and own guns in here because they dont agree with you.

codex1

christmas2012 wrote: »

okay so what about handguns what is their main purpose of design its not long arrow shooting for deer etc..its for shooting people(or self defence if you want to word it that way..)

thankfully there are genuine gun enthusiasts who only use it for sporting ie clay pigeon shooting or shooting board target practice for skill etc..but if it comes loose and the laws are laxed for everyone in ireland.....we will have big,big problems all it takes is one pissed off or mental person..

There are hundreds of handguns which are designed specifically for sporting / target use - competition handgun tournaments very are popular here & I enjoy them.

codex1

Blay wrote: »

I'm sulking? :pac: You're the one crying because ya can't buy an AR15 over the counter in Ireland:pac: You're afraid the boogey man is gonna jump out from under your bed and you'll need a gun to hand at all times:pac:

This thread has been 11 pages of you posting sh1te and being corrected by the same people over and over.

Once again, your showing your ignorance and are now restoring to cursing

I put up a post, people respond, then I respond back - this is how an forum works. I know its hard for you to get it & I forgive you

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

Once again, your showing your ignorance and are now restoring to cursing

I put up a post, people respond, then I respond back - this is how an forum works. I know its hard for you to get it & I forgive you

:pac:

You're just a joke...that's all I'll say on the matter.

codex1

garv123 wrote: »

You can buy the barret yes, when you prove your valid reason for owning it and meet the needed house security.

The other 2 We've all said no you cant.. The current government were meant to look into changing that again after the last governments anti shooting agenda. Pre 2008 you could own CF pistols. You didn't know that when you started your thread either.

CF pistols may change again in the coming years but the licencing of self defence wont be changing and all owners will have to be members of target shooting clubs.

I don't consider having to go to court & hiring a lawyer an acceptable form of making a purchase in 2012. Go to court....

BillyMitchel

garv123 wrote: »

eth0 wrote: »

Yea i dont think there should be a renewal fee for those at all. Most countries dont require licenses for them anyway. 1 paid license should be able to cover multiple guns. 2 or more gun license + draconian safe requirements means having a couple different guns around or collecting soon becomes a very expensive hobby

Pellet guns under 1j dont require a licence.

That used be the system here. One licence and guns added on cheaply.

But hey presto they decide we'll make more money off the 200,000, guns in Ireland and make it a licence per gun and 80euro for 3 years each. some lads have 12 licences to pay

There's 200,000 guns in Ireland? What kind usually and is it mostly hunters/farmers etc that keep them?

codex1

Blay wrote: »

:pac:

You're just a joke...that's all I'll say on the matter.

Dam right, because everything you have said so far is just that....a joke...well...there is also the made up facts, lies, slurs and general rudeness

Witcher

BillyMitchel wrote: »

There's 200,000 guns in Ireland? What kind usually and is it mostly hunters/farmers etc that keep them?

There's over 200,000, think it's 220k. It would be mostly farmers and hunters that have them. That figure doesnt mean there are 220k individuals with firearms, some people would have 2 or more, I know people with 6.

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

Dam right, because everything you have said so far is just that....a joke...well...there is also the made up facts, lies, slurs and general rudeness

Quote one made up fact or lie I've posted..I dare you:pac:

crazy cabbage

madsl and codex

there is clearly a difference in opinions.

In my arguments i was pulling sastics of the internet that i dont really understand but here is my honest view.

I have never once come across a gun in the 21ish years of my life. Never even seen a gun outside of a film/movie. I have never been robed or muged or physicly treatned in anyway.
I then look at the news and see 4 high profile cases in america that involved someone legly geting a gun and killing lots of people (not to mention what they do abroad but that is another discussion) What am i supposed to think? yea lets give everyone in ireland a gun like they do in america (sterotyping i know but you get the point)

I know people do use for hunting or whatever in ireland. I have never come across people hunting though and i live in the country but i know that if people want to they can. They can leagly own a gun for that purpose or sporting purpose. The provisions are there.

I dont see why we need to loosen gun control in ireland. I have never come across a gun in my life and would rather keep it that way

codex1

Blay wrote: »

There's over 200,000, think it's 220k. It would be mostly farmers and hunters that have them. That figure doesnt mean there are 220k individuals with firearms, some people would have 2 or more, I know people with 6.

Blay, do you know anyone who owns "exotics" or high caliber riles - did they have any major problems obtaining a licence for them? Just curious, thanks.

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

Blay, do you know anyone who owns "exotics" or high caliber riles - did they have any major problems obtaining a licence for them? Just curious, thanks.

Yes I do, I know people with CF pistols.. several people with restricted rifles...a guy with a 9.3 calibre rifle(restricted in Ireland). None of them had a problem with licences..the guys with CF pistols had them before the ban came in. I'm a member of a range so I see firearms that wouldn't be seen outside of that setting in Ireland.

There's people on this very forum with restricted rifles...Grizzly45 has a CF semi auto rifle.

codex1

Blay wrote: »

Quote one made up fact or lie I've posted..I dare you:pac:

HA - Your making this to easy, without having to even scroll I can pick one:

"You're just a joke...that's all I'll say on the matter.".....really?

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

HA - Your making this to easy, without having to even scroll I can pick one:

"You're just a joke...that's all I'll say on the matter.".....really?

Unfortunately for you that's not a lie or a made up fact..it's truth:pac:

codex1

Blay wrote: »

Unfortunately for you that's not a lie or a made up fact:pac:

"that's all I'll say on the matter" and then continuing to bang on about nonsense is is not a lie?

also, saying that I can get a 50 cal in Ireland is another lie - show me evidence that anyone (non-military) in Ireland has obtained a licence for a Barrett or DE .50 since the laws where last changed?

BillyMitchel

Blay wrote: »

BillyMitchel wrote: »

There's 200,000 guns in Ireland? What kind usually and is it mostly hunters/farmers etc that keep them?

There's over 200,000, think it's 220k. It would be mostly farmers and hunters that have them. That figure doesnt mean there are 220k individuals with firearms, some people would have 2 or more, I know people with 6.

Cheers. No idea about the subject.

If there's 220k legal guns and never any media coverage or hysteria. Would I be right in saying then that the laws regarding ownership is perfectly good and no need for it to be changed?

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

"that's all I'll say on the matter" and then continuing to bang on about nonsense is is not a lie?

All I'll say about *you*, the topic is still up for discussion.

Witcher

BillyMitchel wrote: »

Cheers. No idea about the subject.

If there's 220k legal guns and never any media coverage or hysteria. Would I be right in saying then that the laws regarding ownership is perfectly good and no need for it to be changed?

I've no problem with the application process here really. I've never encountered a problem with my licences..had them inside 2 weeks. I think that's the complaint most people would have about the system...it can be slow sometimes. There are things within the legislation on what is/isn't restricted that I would like to see changed but apart from that it's ok.

codex1

Blay wrote: »

All I'll say about *you*, the topic is still up for discussion.

Proof of your claims that someone, under todays laws can obtain a licence for a DE .50?

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

Proof of your claims that someone, under todays laws can obtain a licence for a DE .50?

I never said they could..read the last two lines of this post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80419222&postcount=113

I stated several times that you can't have a CF pistol so did Garv. Nobody is saying the system here is perfect but we can have firearms here that are banned 60 miles away in Britain so I'm happy with it.

Odysseus

crazy cabbage wrote: »

madsl and codex

there is clearly a difference in opinions.

In my arguments i was pulling sastics of the internet that i dont really understand but here is my honest view.

I have never once come across a gun in the 21ish years of my life. Never even seen a gun outside of a film/movie. I have never been robed or muged or physicly treatned in anyway.
I then look at the news and see 4 high profile cases in america that involved someone legly geting a gun and killing lots of people (not to mention what they do abroad but that is another discussion) What am i supposed to think? yea lets give everyone in ireland a gun like they do in america (sterotyping i know but you get the point)

I know people do use for hunting or whatever in ireland. I have never come across people hunting though and i live in the country but i know that if people want to they can. They can leagly own a gun for that purpose or sporting purpose. The provisions are there.

I dont see why we need to loosen gun control in ireland. I have never come across a gun in my life and would rather keep it that way

Just because you have never encountered one, due to lack of interest I guess, why should I have to undergo some of the strictist gun laws around? I have an interest in shooting and should not be held back in it just because some people associate firearms with what they see on TV.

clashburke

codex1 wrote: »

Proof of your claims that someone, under todays laws can obtain a licence for a DE .50?

you cannot as per the legislation that you can find and read. the link is above.

what would you need a .50cal handgun for that a smaller gun could not accomplish?? the paper targets are not that tough over here:rolleyes::rolleyes:

BillyMitchel

Blay wrote: »

BillyMitchel wrote: »

Cheers. No idea about the subject.

If there's 220k legal guns and never any media coverage or hysteria. Would I be right in saying then that the laws regarding ownership is perfectly good and no need for it to be changed?

I've no problem with the application process here really. I've never encountered a problem with my licences..had them inside 2 weeks. I think that's the complaint most people would have about the system...it can be slow sometimes. There are things within the legislation on what is/isn't restricted that I would like to see changed but apart from that it's ok.

Thanks. I remember I went to a shooting range in America before and some of the machine guns that you could fire were freighting. They were the length of my leg and the weight of a donkey. Scary feeling holding a gun with live ammo, won't lie. Think we fired glocks 9mm if that makes sense? Can still remember how much my hand was shaking!! Lol

codex1

Blay wrote: »

I never said they could..read the last two lines of this post:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80419222&postcount=113

I stated several pages back that you can't have a CF pistol so did Garv. Nobody is saying the system here is perfect but we can have firearms here that are banned 60 miles away in Britain so I'm happy with it.

Well dude, I only came here for some opinions / little debate & to learn....lot of people came here to pick a argument. I agree with you, no laws are perfect - but no reason why they cannot be improved upon & in turn that won't happen without some sort of grass roots effort, which I might be interested in pursuing when I eventually get back home.

BattleCorp

garv123 wrote: »

But if you possessed a centrefire pistol before the law in 2008 you can still legally own that pistol and buy other centrefire pistols.

Sorry to pipe up here but no, you can't replace your centrefire pistol. You are allowed to keep your centrefire pistol if you had it before Nov 2008 but you can't change it for another centrefire pistol.

This will cause serious problems when people start to get problems with their centrefire pistols or when they just simply wear out.

I'm open to correction but I think I'm correct in interpreting the legislation.

Very dumb fcuking law, seriously.

crazy cabbage

Odysseus wrote: »

Just because you have never encountered one, due to lack of interest I guess, why should I have to undergo some of the strictist gun laws around? I have an interest in shooting and should not be held back in it just because some people associate firearms with what they see on TV.

Which is right. The masacur at batman has a lot to do with guns

And you can get guns. I said that. If you want shoot melons or whatever you can go through a process and get a gun

I dont see why we should relax the laws around a dangerous weapons when the people who want/need them for sporting purposes can get them already

Witcher

BillyMitchel wrote: »

Scary feeling holding a gun with live ammo, won't lie. Think we fired glocks 9mm if that makes sense? Can still remember how much my hand was shaking!! Lol

Yeah the feeling is something else alright, I always thought I'd have no problem with holding a gun and it would be a laugh, then when I was given one to fire for the first time I thought 'I have to be serious here..no ****ing around'. That's a while ago now and I shoot clays every week with a group of lads and we have a great laugh and safety is just natural now..you should try it again.

codex1

clashburke wrote: »

you cannot as per the legislation that you can find and read. the link is above.

what would you need a .50cal handgun for that a smaller gun could not accomplish?? the paper targets are not that tough over here:rolleyes::rolleyes:

hehe

I guess the problem I have with the current laws is that they, in my opinion, are overly restrictive. I don't see why as a tax payer with no criminal history, a lot of firearms training & a history of responsible gun ownership I cannot purchase the guns that I want - within reason.

I also don't see why I should have to explain to the government why I want one, its to subjective & nanny state-like, if I meet the legal criteria - take my money & give me my licence.

Odysseus

marshbaboon wrote: »

Nothing. It was a comment pertaining to US lax gun laws. The point is where do you place the upper limit if the laws are relaxed? If you enjoy shooting for sport, and you're able to own several weapons surely the laws aren't too strict.

Just because I own 3 firearms don't mean that I think the system is not too severe over here, shooting needs to be understood as a sport and be accessible like a sport. We have some very good people competing at a high level for Ireland, often this is not acknowledge, as if shooting is a dirty/seedy sport.

Witcher

codex1 wrote: »

Well dude, I only came here for some opinions / little debate & to learn....lot of people came here to pick a argument. I agree with you, no laws are perfect - but no reason why they cannot be improved upon & in turn that won't happen without some sort of grass roots effort, which I might be interested in pursuing when I eventually get back home.

I'm with you on changing the laws..I see people firing CF pistols in my club and I can't..all I can use is a 5 shot .22lr..I'd love the law to change, I'd have my cash down on the table tomorrow for a Glock 17.

I think shooters on the forum here have debated the law changing so much and come to the conclusion that it probably won't happen anytime soon that we've become tired of debating it all:pac: We just have to live with the system as it is for now, there have been pushes for a change in the pistol situation by some organisations but the appetite doesn't seem to be there with the Minister for Justice to remove the ban.

Manic Moran

Why does 'too strict' have to equal "The US as an alternative"?

How about using Italy, Austria, France, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, or Andorra as a 'less strict' alternative? Does anyone immediately object to Dutch gun laws?

mikemac1 wrote: »

Governer Schweitzer of Montana was over in Waterford a few months back honouring favourite son of the Deise, Thomas Francis Meaghar.
The governer seemed a very nice and genuine man

Completly offtopic, sorry

Not so off-topic. He's well known as a popular and successful Democrat politician who claims to have "more guns than I need, and not as many as I want." Much to the annoyance of some of the senior leadership of the party.

some states such as California will not issue CWP's.

Not a valid example. Issuance is at the discretion of the county Sheriff. Some Sheriffs have a 'nearly no issuance' policy (San Francisco County), some have a 'when you become a resident of the county, please come by the Sheriff's office and pick up your permit application' policy (Amador County). Annoyingly, permits are valid State-wide, so I cannot carry a fiream in San Francisco, but a visitor who lives about 30 miles to my East can do so.

NTM

clashburke

codex1 wrote: »

hehe

I guess the problem I have with the current laws is that they, in my opinion, are overly restrictive. I don't see why as a tax payer with no criminal history, a lot of firearms training & a history of responsible gun ownership I cannot purchase the guns that I want - within reason.

I also don't see why I should have to explain to the government why I want one, its to subjective & nanny state-like, if I meet the legal criteria - take my money & give me my licence.

Your post is contradicting itself.

The legal criteria is that you explain to AGS (Government if you like) why you want the firearm.
Thus to meet the legal criteria you need to explain.

MadsL

Anita Blow wrote: »

And the fact is that 4 times more people per capita have to be killed just so you can have that right.

Except you haven't proved a link between that statistic and the fact that Americans have a right to own arms. The Swiss and Czechs have the right to arms and have no such murder rate. There is more complexity about the reasons that the US has a high crime rate. Not the least of which is an active drug cartel war happening on its border and an insane gang warfare culture.

Your argument has been completely shot down but you keep harping on with this same lame argument "I can buy X in America but I can't buy it in Ireland.

I'd agree with this, silly nonsense about .50 cal cannons (what is the obsession with those anyway, my local range just got one ffs.) is pointless in the Irish context, no justifiable reason anyone should own that in Ireland.

I'm all for liberty and freedoms, but owning a machine whose sole purpose (outside of sport use which is legal here) is to end another person's life or harm another person is not a basic freedom as it violates another person's freedoms.

It only violates freedoms is you use it. Then there are consequences. Your sole purpose argument is a bit thin, there are lots of reasons to own a firearm.

Anita Blow wrote: »

The US has an Intentional Homicide Rate of 4.2 per 100,000 people. Ireland has an IHR of 1.2 per 100,000 people.
The US has widespread gun ownership, Ireland does not.

I really don't need to point out the incorrect logic there do I?
The US grows more rice than Ireland.
The US has more Chinese people than Ireland, therefore there are more Chinese people in US because they grow a lot of rice.

In the past month there has been 4 high-profile killings of multiple innocent people by people who would've been considered sane/innocent before they carried out these attacks.

Generally, most people are considered sane before they commit crimes, most even after they commit crimes. As to finding people guilty before they commit crimes, wasn't that a Tom Cruise movie?

They were Denver, Chicago, New York and Wisconsin.
I don't think I could name a similar incident in Ireland where a previously sane person with no previous violent convictions killed multiple civilians so easily

.
Really? You have a short memory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bombings_during_the_Northern_Ireland_Troubles_and_peace_process

You can twist and turn the figures and try to come up with any and every excuse, but those are the facts.

There are facts, and then there are interpretations. There is also assumption. You have shown all three.

crazy cabbage wrote: »

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime
here is another stastic from the same wedsite as you took yours. Shows america has the highest crime rates by far. doesn't mention guns but i wounder what might have caused america to have twice the crime rate than its nearest 'competator'

I'd love to know, but clearly it isn't as simple as "guns".

That data you quoted is from 2002. In the last 10 years the US has reduced crime rates to become 5th rather than 1st.
http://www.numbeo.com/crime/rankings_by_country.jsp

No. i was saying if people are so worried about there safty then why not learn self defence. Wouldn't work in america becouse ye already have that many guns circulating but in ireland where there is very few i would think that is enough

So you agree with me on self-defence then in the US.

Tasers are worse than guns. I dont see why. Why cant they be highly regualated and only given to people who are seriesly worried about there safty and are sane. You dont want to get close enough to use a taser but if someone breaks into you house they are not going to be a million miles away. If you can shoot them you will be able to taser them (unless you live in a mansion)

Because it is widely assumed they are non-lethal when in fact they have caused many deaths. Over 500 in the US. URL="http://electronicvillage.blogspot.com/2009/05/taser-related-deaths-in-united-states.html"]Source[/URL

You also ignored some of my points indication the corralation between child homicide/susicide/death with guns lieing around the house

I look forward to the study linking having bits if rope lying around leading to hanging suicides.

crazy cabbage wrote: »

madsl and codex

there is clearly a difference in opinions.

In my arguments i was pulling sastics of the internet that i dont really understand but here is my honest view.

I have never once come across a gun in the 21ish years of my life. Never even seen a gun outside of a film/movie. I have never been robed or muged or physicly treatned in anyway.
I then look at the news and see 4 high profile cases in america that involved someone legly geting a gun and killing lots of people (not to mention what they do abroad but that is another discussion) What am i supposed to think? yea lets give everyone in ireland a gun like they do in america (sterotyping i know but you get the point)

I know people do use for hunting or whatever in ireland. I have never come across people hunting though and i live in the country but i know that if people want to they can. They can leagly own a gun for that purpose or sporting purpose. The provisions are there.

I dont see why we need to loosen gun control in ireland. I have never come across a gun in my life and would rather keep it that way

I think you misunderstand that I am not arguing for looser gun control in Ireland. I sympathise with gun owners in Ireland who have to put up with the decisions of their local Garda Superintendent rather than a fair and consistent application of the law. There is far too much "I don't like the look of that" for lads who are just out shooting bunnies and foxes.

However, I am not supporting relaxing gun controls in Ireland, merely taking issue with the frankly lazy view that guns are the root of all evil in the US.

crazy cabbage

Why does 'too strict' have to equal "The US as an alternative"?

becouse the op mentions the US in opening post

codex1

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Which is right. The masacur at batman has a lot to do with guns

And you can get guns. I said that. If you want shoot melons or whatever you can go through a process and get a gun

I dont see why we should relax the laws around a dangerous weapons when the people who want/need them for sporting purposes can get them already

My issue is that I cannot get the type of guns that I want - its like being a petrol head, having the money to buy a Lamborghini and the government telling you NO WAY, you can only buy a fiat 500 or a Nissan Micra....it sucks.

They should take my money, checkout my background & if all checks out give me a licence for my exotic guns - if I'm a dick, then take them all away, fair enough

Manic Moran

PieForPi wrote: »

and "accidents" such as people "cleaning their gun and it went off" that seem to happen an immense amount in the US.

Protecting us from ourselves, eh? Not an argument I'm incredibly in favour of. Reckless endagerment laws already exists.

codex1

Manic Moran wrote: »

Why does 'too strict' have to equal "The US as an alternative"?

How about using Italy, Austria, France, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland, Spain, or Andorra as a 'less strict' alternative? Does anyone immediately object to Dutch gun laws?



Not so off-topic. He's well known as a popular and successful Democrat politician who claims to have "more guns than I need, and not as many as I want." Much to the annoyance of some of the senior leadership of the party.



Not a valid example. Issuance is at the discretion of the county Sheriff. Some Sheriffs have a 'nearly no issuance' policy (San Francisco County), some have a 'when you become a resident of the county, please come by the Sheriff's office and pick up your permit application' policy (Amador County). Annoyingly, permits are valid State-wide, so I cannot carry a fiream in San Francisco, but a visitor who lives about 30 miles to my East can do so.

NTM

The guns laws in CA have gotten much stricter in the last two years, I've a forest ranger buddy who patrols the Emigrant Wilderness in the high sierras who cannot get a CWP for love nor money, he even considered moving to Carson City, but a Nevada issued CWP is not recognized in CA....its a real pain.

crazy cabbage

codex1 wrote: »

My issue is that I cannot get the type of guns that I want - its like being a petrol head, having the money to buy a Lamborghini and the government telling you NO WAY, you can only buy a fiat 500 or a Nissan Micra....it sucks.

They should take my money, checkout my background & if all checks out give me a licence for my exotic guns - if I'm a dick, then take them all away, fair enough

My problem is that from what i hear on the news here the people in america who get guns and then kill people such as at batman were sane and there backround checked out and all the rest of it.

I think this tread would have went more in your favour if you didn't mention america.

I am tired of this discussion and i dont think anything will be done in the short term so am leaving unfollowing this tread. We have much more important stuff for our goverment to be at. wish ya well

codex1

clashburke wrote: »

Your post is contradicting itself.

The legal criteria is that you explain to AGS (Government if you like) why you want the firearm.
Thus to meet the legal criteria you need to explain.

That is the current legal situation, I disagree with having to explain yourself - like a child to the government & I disagree with the limitations applied to what you can currently buy.

Manic Moran

codex1 wrote: »

The guns laws in CA have gotten much stricter in the last two years, I've a forest ranger buddy who patrols the Emigrant Wilderness in the high sierras who cannot get a CWP for love nor money, he even considered moving to Carson City, but a Nevada issued CWP is not recognized in CA....its a real pain.

Erm. No, they haven't.

I've been living here over ten years and have a modest collection. California has a terrible reputation, but it's nowhere near as bad as some of the Eastern States. About the only true annoyance the last few years which has been enacted is the .50BMG ban.

What is your buddy's county of residence? Check with this map for issuance.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/recent/clownburner/OCCCWS/ca_ccw_map-big.png