2013 budget preliminaries

Nody

All the usual suspects appear to be going in for 2013 as per this article in yet another nip and tuck style budget.

• Less tax relief(s)
• Moving the tax bands downwards
• Higher motor tax
• Higher alcohol & duty tax
• Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)
• Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits
• Increase in VAT

Am I the only one depressed to still, four years in, still not see some politician with big enough balls to actually take decisive action? I'd welcome SF if for nothing else that someone will actually (hopefully?) take some decisive action and show they are brave enough to lead rather then plodding along as nothing has happened.

sarumite

Nody wrote: »

All the usual suspects appear to be going in for 2013 as per this article in yet another nip and tuck style budget.

• Less tax relief(s)
• Moving the tax bands downwards
• Higher motor tax
• Higher alcohol & duty tax
• Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)
• Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits
• Increase in VAT

Am I the only one depressed to still, four years in, still not see some politician with big enough balls to actually take decisive action? I'd welcome SF if for nothing else that someone will actually (hopefully?) take some decisive action and show they are brave enough to lead rather then plodding along as nothing has happened.

Ah, but you see SF's economic policies are based on the reality that they won't actually have to make decisive action or lead. They know that they won't be in government so they can design their economic policies to sounds appealing without actually having to work.

Farmer Pudsey

Nody wrote: »

All the usual suspects appear to be going in for 2013 as per this article in yet another nip and tuck style budget.

• Less tax relief(s)
• Moving the tax bands downwards
• Higher motor tax
• Higher alcohol & duty tax
• Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)
• Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits
• Increase in VAT

Am I the only one depressed to still, four years in, still not see some politician with big enough balls to actually take decisive action? I'd welcome SF if for nothing else that someone will actually (hopefully?) take some decisive action and show they are brave enough to lead rather then plodding along as nothing has happened.

Yes you are right you can add
increased property tax
Increased college fees
water rates
Generally anything that effects workers of your above there will harly be any increase in Vat as it got hammered last year, little or no extra tax on alachol oe cigs effects the unemployed the most no reduvtion on welfare and no reduction on PS wage rates even though they are one of the highest in Europe.

Tax the private sector out of existance.

ParkRunner

Nody wrote: »

All the usual suspects appear to be going in for 2013 as per this article in yet another nip and tuck style budget.

• Less tax relief(s)
• Moving the tax bands downwards
• Higher motor tax
• Higher alcohol & duty tax
• Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)
• Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits
• Increase in VAT

Am I the only one depressed to still, four years in, still not see some politician with big enough balls to actually take decisive action? I'd welcome SF if for nothing else that someone will actually (hopefully?) take some decisive action and show they are brave enough to lead rather then plodding along as nothing has happened.

What brave decisive action do you mean?

Nody

EF wrote: »

What brave decisive action do you mean?

Restructure the whole social welfare payment and front loading benefits (making benefits go down the longer you stay on but give you more up front to give you a good cushion at the start to get into a new job rather then waiting), doing a proper restructure of HSE services, actually challenging every quango to see where the double work is done and stream line it, give proper incentives and benefit for people starting up their own companies (instead of kicking on them by denying them social benefits), to step up and say I'm cutting every salary above 100k by 25% and my own and my governments by 30% and all benefits by 50% (i.e. leading by example).

I could go on but actually trying to fix some of the root issues instead of cutting a bit on the top at the same corners they have been cutting in for the last four years.

Welease

Nody wrote: »

Restructure the whole social welfare payment and front loading benefits (making benefits go down the longer you stay on but give you more up front to give you a good cushion at the start to get into a new job rather then waiting), doing a proper restructure of HSE services, actually challenging every quango to see where the double work is done and stream line it, give proper incentives and benefit for people starting up their own companies (instead of kicking on them by denying them social benefits), to step up and say I'm cutting every salary above 100k by 25% and my own and my governments by 30% and all benefits by 50% (i.e. leading by example).

I could go on but actually trying to fix some of the root issues instead of cutting a bit on the top at the same corners they have been cutting in for the last four years.

The problem is.. that would guarantee you a massacre at the next election. Whereas saying you will keep SW benefits, Elderly benefits, Hit the banks/rich etc.. and keep taxes the same will guarantee you votes..

Turkey's wont vote for xmas.. and who can blame them.. If they did what we need done, they will be out of a job..

ParkRunner

Welease wrote: »

Nody wrote: »

Restructure the whole social welfare payment and front loading benefits (making benefits go down the longer you stay on but give you more up front to give you a good cushion at the start to get into a new job rather then waiting), doing a proper restructure of HSE services, actually challenging every quango to see where the double work is done and stream line it, give proper incentives and benefit for people starting up their own companies (instead of kicking on them by denying them social benefits), to step up and say I'm cutting every salary above 100k by 25% and my own and my governments by 30% and all benefits by 50% (i.e. leading by example).

I could go on but actually trying to fix some of the root issues instead of cutting a bit on the top at the same corners they have been cutting in for the last four years.

The problem is.. that would guarantee you a massacre at the next election. Whereas saying you will keep SW benefits, Elderly benefits, Hit the banks/rich etc.. and keep taxes the same will guarantee you votes..

Turkey's wont vote for xmas.. and who can blame them.. If they did what we need done, they will be out of a job..

True that! Perhaps the budget should be the responsibility of an independent body or representatives from each political party regardless of who is in government. The current system is putting huge debts onto the country just to try to win elections

paddy147

Lets fcuk up the domestic economy more and more and more,but lets keep on paying the german bondholders.


Oh wait,we actually dont legally need to pay them,we were forced to do so by the ECB.......


Colm McCarthy digs up the truth on the ECB and front bench minister Pat Rabbit finally admits the truth too........

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/52207/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne


PS-I wonder will Kenny and Noonan now finally stand up to the ECB and Germany,or will they still suck up to them both.

liammur

sarumite wrote: »

Ah, but you see SF's economic policies are based on the reality that they won't actually have to make decisive action or lead. They know that they won't be in government so they can design their economic policies to sounds appealing without actually having to work.

Exactly, these SF crowd are so out of touch it's almost unreal. Austerity is the only game in town for the next 15 years.

paddy147

liammur wrote: »

Exactly, these SF crowd are so out of touch it's almost unreal. Austerity is the only game in town for the next 15 years.

Eh no its not..not with France and soon to be Holand too.

Both have now realized that Austerity is not the way forwrd.

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

Eh no its not..not with France and soon to be Holand too.

Both have now realized that Austerity is not the way forwrd.

You are coming at this from completely the wrong angles.

1. Holland don't want austerity, not because their economy is in turmoil, but because they are paying for the PIIGS. In other words, they don't want to be taking other's debts on.

2. France wants growth measures put in place, to try and get some money back. But they still side with the fiscally prudent Germans.

rainbowdash

Agree 100% that welfare should be front loaded, the more you pay in while working the more you get back the day you lose your job, the longer you are on the dole the less you get.

Give credits for people who go on FAS courses, go back to college, take short term contracts etc. This will silence the "you are hurting the poorest in society" brigade, if credits are given for course and enough places available there will be no hiding place.

Ditto illness benefit, just because somebody is suffering from depression for example, does not prevent them from going on a FAS course or community employment scheme.

Public sector pensions should be capped at say 2 x the basic state pension, after that pay your own contributions like the private sector.

At least Lenny started cutting hard when the going got tough, unlike FG and LAB who seem to be trying to appease everybody.

Bullseye1

Trying to finish off the domestic economy.

liammur

rainbowdash wrote: »

Agree 100% that welfare should be front loaded, the more you pay in while working the more you get back the day you lose your job, the longer you are on the dole the less you get.

Give credits for people who go on FAS courses, go back to college, take short term contracts etc. This will silence the "you are hurting the poorest in society" brigade, if credits are given for course and enough places available there will be no hiding place.

Ditto illness benefit, just because somebody is suffering from depression for example, does not prevent them from going on a FAS course or community employment scheme.

Public sector pensions should be capped at say 2 x the basic state pension, after that pay your own contributions like the private sector.

At least Lenny started cutting hard when the going got tough, unlike FG and LAB who seem to be trying to appease everybody.

That's news to me. He gave high payed civil serveants pay rises, levied the blind and the deaf.

I do agree with everything else you've said.

rainbowdash

liammur wrote: »

That's news to me. He gave high payed civil serveants pay rises, levied the blind and the deaf.

I do agree with everything else you've said.

Welfare rates were cut, as was public sector pay and income tax levies slapped on everybody upto 6% for high earners.

The welfare rate for a family of 4 was cut by something like €30 per week and the bonus week at Christmas abolished.

Do you remember the emergency budgets?

liammur

rainbowdash wrote: »

Welfare rates were cut, as was public sector pay and income tax levies slapped on everybody upto 6% for high earners.

The welfare rate for a family of 4 was cut by something like €30 per week and the bonus week at Christmas abolished.

Do you remember the emergency budgets?

We need to get real here, these need to be slashed. We need a dose of realism in this country, taking €4/5 off the dole doesn't constitute getting tough, when the country was leaking €18bln a year. How many pensions does bertie ahern have? were the touched?

paddy147

Can we cut FG advisor salaries aswell??

Instead of giving them all 3k salary increases,ontop of their 127k salaries (which broke the 98k pay cap deal)

The goverment could and should lead by example.......

Bannasidhe

rainbowdash wrote: »

Agree 100% that welfare should be front loaded, the more you pay in while working the more you get back the day you lose your job, the longer you are on the dole the less you get.

Give credits for people who go on FAS courses, go back to college, take short term contracts etc. This will silence the "you are hurting the poorest in society" brigade, if credits are given for course and enough places available there will be no hiding place.

Ditto illness benefit, just because somebody is suffering from depression for example, does not prevent them from going on a FAS course or community employment scheme.

Public sector pensions should be capped at say 2 x the basic state pension, after that pay your own contributions like the private sector.

At least Lenny started cutting hard when the going got tough, unlike FG and LAB who seem to be trying to appease everybody.

All very well and good - but what happens to those who lost well paid jobs but received the same SW as everyone else - will their front loading be backdated to reflect the contributions the paid or will their rates just be cut if they haven't managed to secure employment?

My sister began work in 1977, up until 2 1/2 years ago she was unemployed in that time for a total of 3 weeks in the mid 80s. She had a very highly paid job in the construction sector since 1990 - her boss went bankrupt in 2009. She claimed JSB part-time for a year while working part-time. Her JSB has now run out and she is claiming JSA but still working one day a week - her hours were cut back. There are many people like her - should her money be cut?

What about people who already have degrees up to and including post-graduate. College is not an option for them unless they can pay fees? They will also not get any form of grant of BTEA.

I know of 7 people with PhD's, funded by the Irish taxpayer, who cannot get jobs in Ireland - all of them are looking to emigrate. Do we fund more people to get university qualifications so they can also emigrate?
This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that our 3rd level institutions are so chronically underfunded that they are on the point of collapse. I know - I work in an Irish university and we can't even afford photocopies any more.

FÁS courses are a joke and everyone know it.

Take a short-term contract and then when it ends wait up to 15 weeks for your 'repeat' claim to be processed?
What do people live on in the mean-time?

Bullseye1

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I know of 7 people with PhD's, funded by the Irish taxpayer, who cannot get jobs in Ireland - all of them are looking to emigrate. Do we fund more people to get university qualifications so they can also emigrate?
This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that our 3rd level institutions are so chronically underfunded that they are on the point of collapse. I know - I work in an Irish university and we can't even afford photocopies any more.

I'm all for people getting PhD's etc but if its not going to benefit our economy they should not be funded by the taxpayer and now they are leaving the island with their qualifications and basically giving the tax payer the two fingers. nice.

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

Can we cut FG advisor salaries aswell??

Instead of giving them all 3k salary increases,ontop of their 127k salaries (which broke the 98k pay cap deal)

The goverment could and should lead by example.......

How about we just cut the advisors altogether. And about 100 quangos such as the bertie bowl quango, because I for one can't see any value being added.

paddy147

liammur wrote: »

How about we just cut the advisors altogether. And about 100 quangos such as the bertie bowl quango, because I for one can't see any value being added.

Yep,get rid of them all.

Bannasidhe

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I'm all for people getting PhD's etc but if its not going to benefit our economy they should not be funded by the taxpayer and now they are leaving the island with their qualifications and basically giving the tax payer the two fingers. nice.

The situation as it now stands is that while it may be possible to get fees paid for post-grad there is no form of financial support (grant/BTEA) available so people have to work (lack of part-time jobs being an issue here) - this used to be manageable when universities could afford to pay post-grads to work as tutors but is now pretty much impossible.
Only those doing the H.Dip can get BTEA - but there is a job freeze so few secondary school positions are available.

Do you think these people want to leave? They have no choice. One of them is a woman in her 50s with 3 adult children and grand-children- do you think she wants to up sticks and go work in some US college so she can stick up two fingers up at the Irish taxpayer? No - she wants to be an Irish taxpayer paying tax in Ireland.

The situation now is that people will be funded to get their primary degree and that's it. They will then be looking at a job market that averages 26 applicants for every position or they will emigrate.

Sending people to college (and I am all for education) or on useless FÁS is not going to help - it's just more kicking the can down the road.

We need jobs - not internships, not degrees for the sake of getting a degree not a FÁS course on some outdated piece of software. JOBS.

hmmm

FG would do well to remember that they were elected on a platform of 2:1 cuts to new taxes. I'd prefer to see them walk rather than kowtow to Labour on this.

liammur

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The situation as it now stands is that while it may be possible to get fees paid for post-grad there is no form of financial support (grant/BTEA) available so people have to work (lack of part-time jobs being an issue here) - this used to be manageable when universities could afford to pay post-grads to work as tutors but is now pretty much impossible.
Only those doing the H.Dip can get BTEA - but there is a job freeze so few secondary school positions are available.

Do you think these people want to leave? They have no choice. One of them is a woman in her 50s with 3 adult children and grand-children- do you think she wants to up sticks and go work in some US college so she can stick up two fingers up at the Irish taxpayer? No - she wants to be an Irish taxpayer paying tax in Ireland.

The situation now is that people will be funded to get their primary degree and that's it. They will then be looking at a job market that averages 26 applicants for every position or they will emigrate.

Sending people to college (and I am all for education) or on useless FÁS is not going to help - it's just more kicking the can down the road.

We need jobs - not internships, not degrees for the sake of getting a degree not a FÁS course on some outdated piece of software. JOBS.

Fas should be shut down, complete waste of money.

Jobs,,,that's where the real problem lies, because most economies are now needing jobs. The US unemployment of over 8%

Bullseye1

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Do you think these people want to leave? They have no choice. One of them is a woman in her 50s with 3 adult children and grand-children- do you think she wants to up sticks and go work in some US college so she can stick up two fingers up at the Irish taxpayer? No - she wants to be an Irish taxpayer paying tax in Ireland.

Has the woman ever worked or has she always been in collage?

paddy147

hmmm wrote: »

FG would do well to remember that they were elected on a platform of 2:1 cuts to new taxes. I'd prefer to see them walk rather than kowtow to Labour on this.

Id say that it will be Labour who walks out 1st.

The unions still do have alot of pulling power over Eamon Gillmore.

rainbowdash

rainbowdash wrote: »

Agree 100% that welfare should be front loaded, the more you pay in while working the more you get back the day you lose your job, the longer you are on the dole the less you get.

I wish people would stop with that. In a boom, sure, it makes sense, but at the moment there are no jobs for people to go to.

You'd be just taking money from them on a gradual scale knowing that they won't find any employment.


(that said, I am in favour of community employment and the likes. Keep your Welfare at the highest rate if you work, say 20 hours a week for the local council or such, doing jobs they can no longer afford to do themselves without outside help).

liammur

hmmm wrote: »

FG would do well to remember that they were elected on a platform of 2:1 cuts to new taxes. I'd prefer to see them walk rather than kowtow to Labour on this.

For the good of the country that is not an option.

Bannasidhe

Bullseye1 wrote: »

Has the woman ever worked or has she always been in collage?

Ran her own very successful business for 25 years. It was wound up as part of her divorce settlement as her ex-husband claimed half of it and forced the sale. She also worked at least 20 hours a week all through university - paying tax and PRSI.

Given that I said she is in her 50s - how long do you think it takes to get a PhD?

hmmm

liammur wrote: »

For the good of the country that is not an option.

The "good of the country" is to cut back our deficit to manageable levels - all sensible parties agree on this.

What is up for discussion is how that is achieved. FG are the largest party and the most important part of their manifesto was clear - it is up to them now to implement this, and if they cannot they should walk rather than implement an alternative.

Bullseye1

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ran her own very successful business for 25 years. It was wound up as part of her divorce settlement as her ex-husband claimed half of it and forced the sale. She also worked at least 20 hours a week all through university - paying tax and PRSI.

Given that I said she is in her 50s - how long do you think it takes to get a PhD?

I've no idea how long she took but there are professional or maybe a better word be life-long students who love nothing more than accumulating PhD's and Master Degrees.

liammur

hmmm wrote: »

What is up for discussion is how that is achieved. FG are the largest party and the most important part of their manifesto was clear - it is up to them now to implement this, and if they cannot they should walk rather than implement an alternative.

Great,,,and failing this an election & bring back FF ?

Bannasidhe

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I've no idea how long she took but there are professional or maybe a better word be life-long students who love nothing more than accumulating PhD's and Master Degrees.

If people want to collect degrees/ PhD's they are free to do so as they will be paying for them themselves.

As I made clear - currently free fees applied to one's first primary degree (if you fail and have to repeat a year fees are not covered for the repeat), plus some post-grad courses as long as it can be demonstrated one is genuinely up-grading one's qualifications.

The maximum number of years free fees will be paid for is primary degree x 3 (x 4 for some courses), M.A x 1 or M.Phil x 2 and if one can convince the authorities (and this is by no means a given) PhD x 3.

Grant or BTEA can be claimed for primary degree or H.Dip only. Not for M.A./M.Phil. or PhD.

I have two primary degrees - fees were paid for both. My PhD fees were paid for by winning a competitive scholarship and I worked the whole time as well. What does it matter if I get another 3 degrees and a brace of PhD's? - The taxpayer will not be paying and the universities would be getting fees...

But the number of degrees or the amount of time people choose to spend in college is a tangent - The point is just telling people to 'go to college' is not a solution unless there are jobs available for graduates. If those jobs are not there we are funding the education of people to help them get good jobs when they emigrate.

syklops

paddy147 wrote: »

Eh no its not..not with France and soon to be Holand too.

Both have now realized that Austerity is not the way forwrd.

What is the alternative to austerity? Spending money we dont have?

Mr. teddywinkles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Yes you are right you can add
increased property tax
Increased college fees
water rates
Generally anything that effects workers of your above there will harly be any increase in Vat as it got hammered last year, little or no extra tax on alachol oe cigs effects the unemployed the most no reduvtion on welfare and no reduction on PS wage rates even though they are one of the highest in Europe.

Tax the private sector out of existance.

Did I not hear on the radio just last week that they do indeed plan to cut welfare payments again.

later12

Nody wrote: »

• Less tax relief(s)
• Moving the tax bands downwards
• Higher motor tax
• Higher alcohol & duty tax
• Reduction (in unspecified ways) to the social expenditure bill (I guess those below 25 will get another hit with a minor touch for the rest)
• Minor cuts to pensions/elder benefits
• Increase in VAT

Where are you getting that list?

Lower/ fewer tax reliefs; changes to bands, motor tax, and excise are all in the Memorandum of Economic & Financial Policies, it is true.

But the Memorandum, if you read it, doesn't mention VAT specifically, but indirect taxes. This may or may not mean a VAT increase.

I also have no idea why you are claiming that the cuts to the elderly and pensions will necessarily be minor. There may be political reasons for believing this may be the case, but it is misleading to imply, as you have done, that the MEFP specifically proposes minor cuts to the elderly.

You are just drawing up a scenario that suits your own particular argument, not one that is based on the facts of the matter.

hmmm wrote: »

FG would do well to remember that they were elected on a platform of 2:1 cuts to new taxes. I'd prefer to see them walk rather than kowtow to Labour on this.

liammur wrote: »

For the good of the country that is not an option.

In fairness there is no serious issue of kowtowing. According to the Memorandum, the ratio for the 2013 budget will come out at around 35:65; i.e. €1.25bn in revenue raising measures, as opposed to €2.25bn in public expenditure cuts.

http://www.finance.gov.ie/documents/publications/other/2012/EU-IMFprog.pdf

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Did I not hear on the radio just last week that they do indeed plan to cut welfare payments again.

I don't see how anyone could say that with authority at this early stage; if tax bands are expanded to bring people deeper into the tax net, then it would make sense to reduce unemployment welfare transfers accordingly.

paddy147

The president of the Irish estate agents and auctioneers assosiation said on RTE News yesterday that it was and is ABSOLUTE MADNESS to introduce a property tax in this country...when so many are in trouble with mortgage debt on their properties.

He cant see what the goverment are doing this for,considering that they are not doing anything to help out the people in distress or helping out the domestic economy..

Nody

later12 wrote: »

Where are you getting that list?

Lower/ fewer tax reliefs; changes to bands, motor tax, and excise are all in the Memorandum of Economic & Financial Policies, it is true.

But the Memorandum, if you read it, doesn't mention VAT specifically, but indirect taxes. This may or may not mean a VAT increase.

Seeing how that's the easiest indirect tax to change, that it was already raised already etc. yes, that's not a far guess to go as the indirect tax that will increase will in fact be VAT as the whole point of it is to raise more money and that's the easiest one to grab it from; could be wrong but very unlikely.

I also have no idea why you are claiming that the cuts to the elderly and pensions will necessarily be minor. There may be political reasons for believing this may be the case, but it is misleading to imply, as you have done, that the MEFP specifically proposes minor cuts to the elderly.

Because to date the politicians have been afraid to touch it and the fact that every other type of cut to date has been minor in every other area. Now if the politicians out of the blue would drastically change their behaviour the memorandum would also read drastically different. Hence by the decisions taken to date and by the actions to date it's not a out of the blue sky idea that the cuts will be minor.

You are just drawing up a scenario that suits your own particular argument, not one that is based on the facts of the matter.

Actually the argument is based on the facts from the previous 4 years of budgets and the actions of the politicians (from all relevant government parties) for the last decade.

later12

paddy147 wrote: »

The president of the Irish estate agents and auctioneers assosiation said on RTE News yesterday that it was and is ABSOLUTE MADNESS to introduce a property tax in this country...when so many are in trouble with mortgage debt on their properties.

On the other hand those in mortgage difficulty are in the minority of householders in the state. There are plenty of households who benefit from the provision of council services who ought expect to compensate the council for the added value which their house enjoys & derives through the provision of local services. About 80% of mortgage customers have no significant problems in meeting the (original or revised) instalments on their mortgages according to Central Bank data, and there is another significant cohort of householders who own their homes outright.

He cant see what the goverment are doing this for

Because they need a stable revenue base, that much is not hard to understand.

later12

Nody wrote: »

that's not a far guess to go as the indirect tax that will increase will in fact be VAT

Because to date the politicians have been afraid to touch it

from the previous 4 years of budgets and the actions of the politicians (from all relevant government parties) for the last decade.

Ah right, so just to confirm, nothing in this Memorandum then.

I have already said that one may guess the budgetary decisions using one's political sensibilities, but what I am suggesting is inappropriate was your listing of the supposed measures as though they were confirmed as fact, when in reality they were just your own interpretation of what the Memorandum actually says.

An unsuspecting reader could quite easily happen across that post and presume you to be conveying with accuracy what was in the memorandum - that isn't what you did.

Bannasidhe

paddy147 wrote: »

The president of the Irish estate agents and auctioneers assosiation said on RTE News yesterday that it was and is ABSOLUTE MADNESS to introduce a property tax in this country...when so many are in trouble with mortgage debt on their properties.

He cant see what the goverment are doing this for,considering that they are not doing anything to help out the people in distress or helping out the domestic economy..

This has me puzzled too. I live in a row of terraced houses new built in 2005 when the prices were around 240,000. Since that time only one house has been put on the market (at 240,000) but failed to sell - this was around 2009. In 2006 my house was valued at 250,000 - now, who the hell knows?

My nearest neighbour on the other side is a detached, 4 bedroom with large garden, ample off street parking, mature gardens and decking. This house has been on and off the market since 2005 during which time the asking price has fallen from 400,000 to 199,000 and it has failed to sell.

How on earth do they evaluate the current value of my property?

paddy147

later12 wrote: »

On the other hand those in mortgage difficulty are in the minority of householders in the state. There are plenty of households who benefit from the provision of council services who ought expect to compensate the council for the added value which their house enjoys & derives through the provision of local services. About 80% of mortgage customers have no significant problems in meeting the (original or revised) instalments on their mortgages according to Central Bank data, and there is another significant cohort of householders who own their homes outright.

Because they need a stable revenue base, that much is not hard to understand.

Well there will come a time in this great country of ours,where people will just not have enough money left in their account/pocket to pay for everything that they are expected to pay for from next year and 2014 )water charges.

So what do you do with a person who CANNOT pay all these charges from 2013 onwards???


The goverment seem to ignore the Credit Union reports and surveys.

So what will FG/Labour do with alot more of the people who will be further crippled with domestic and personal dept next year??

Its a very honest question here...because I can see possible serious unrest in this country next year.




As a lady said to me the other day in the supermarket..........




..."Theres only so much juice you can squeeze out of an orange"....

later12

paddy147 wrote: »

Well there will come a time in this great country of ours,where people will just not have enough money left in their account/pocket to pay for everything that they are expected to pay for from next year and 2104 )water chargesr.

So what do you do with a person who CANNOT pay all these charges from 2013 onwards???


What will FG/Labour do with alot more of the people who will be crippled with dept next year??

Its a very honest question here.

The Government has not completely abandoned the "ability to pay" principle of revenue collection.

If someone is the owner of a property which does enjoy the main council services, then one should anticipate to have to pay for the benefits that accrue to them through the provision of those services. Otherwise, they might want to consider the wisdom of contracting the charges by way of amassing significant & expensive assets in the first place.

paddy147 wrote: »

As a lady said to me the other day in the supermarket..........

..."Theres only so much juice you can squeeze out of an orange"....

There was a saying in a bank where I used to work that went "you can't get blood out of a stone, but you can get water out of a turnip". The turnip, in this case, is the Irish householder, which through his irrational & eager desire for property ownership, will do almost anything to retain his title deeds.

paddy147

The goverment dont want to talk about anything or listen to anyone else though.

Its a case of EVERYONE MUST pay or else.....and not a persons ability to pay or not pay.

Phil Hogan bulled/rushed his way in and didnt even know what the hell he was doing or saying..he hasnt thought it out properly.


So who do you get out of a recession then...and get the domestic economy going again

I know...just keep on taxing and taxing and taking more and more money off of people and taking it out of the domestic economy too.Threaten them too while you are at it.




Like that lady said to me......"theres only so much juice you can squeeze from an orange"...

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

The goverment dont want to talk about anything or listen to anyone else though.

Its a case of EVERYONE MUST pay or else.....and not a persons ability to pay or not pay.

Phil Hogan bulled/rushed his way in and didnt even know what the hell he was doing or saying..he hasnt thought it out properly.


So who do you get out of a recession then...and get the domestic economy going again

I know...just keep on taxing and taxing and taking more and more money off of people and taking it out of the domestic economy too.Threaten them too while you are at it.




Like that lady said to me......"theres only so much juice you can squeeze from an orange"...

Everyone knows that. But survival is the name of the game for Ireland now. The last government ruined this country, the time comes, where you have to start paying back what you borrow. This applies to countries as much as individuals.
Greece/Ireland/Portugal....and now the likes of Egypt. We have to do what we are told.

paddy147

Are Kenny and Gilmore not doing exactly what the last goverment did though???

They can and will blatantly threaten us (the Irish people) but they wont even say a word to the ECB,german bondholders or Merkel.

If I saw Kenny and Gilmore leading by example then maybe I wouldnt be so pi55ed off at them.but I dont see any example of it.

I do see loads of salary increases for all the FG heads though and tax payers monies being blown on 10,000 silk ties aswell.



Yep,thats leading by example.




Im off out now,talk to you later on this evening.

Regards.

liammur

paddy147 wrote: »

Are Kenny and Gilmore not doing exactly what the last goverment did though???

They can and will blatantly threaten us (the Irish people) but they wont even say a word to the ECB,german bondholders or Merkel.

If I saw Kenny and Gilmore leading by example then maybe I wouldnt be so pi55ed off at them.but I dont see any example of it.

I do see loads of salary increases for all the FG heads though and tax payers monies being blown on 10,000 silk ties aswell.



Yep,thats leading by example

Yes, Kenny & Gilmore are doing exactly what FF did when the Troika were in. Effectively they are a puppet government. Any government in a bailout programme is. Greece is the prime example.

I agree that they are not leading by example by not cutting back on their own outrageous expenses etc.

ednwireland

3 months of flag flying by our glorious leaders to see what they think they can get away with easiest. i'm sick of it already. these guys really are clowns

Godge

paddy147 wrote: »

The president of the Irish estate agents and auctioneers assosiation said on RTE News yesterday that it was and is ABSOLUTE MADNESS to introduce a property tax in this country...when so many are in trouble with mortgage debt on their properties.

He cant see what the goverment are doing this for,considering that they are not doing anything to help out the people in distress or helping out the domestic economy..

Why would you listen to him, he is saying that for his members.

The Vintners Association will say that putting ten pence on the pint is absolute madness and will close pubs
The unions will say that cutting public service pay is absolute madness and will lead to strikes.
The poverty industry representatives will say that cutting social welfare is absolute madness and will hurt the old and the weak

Etc. Etc.

If somebody from a representative group says something it should be taken with a bucket of salt.

areyawell

A lot of politicians just love the power and don't care about the citizens of Ireland as long as they have a nice big pay check for doing nothing. All local politicians do is attend one or two meetings a week and discuss nothing and get free meals and other expenses with a nice pay check. Its an utter Joke. The country is broke and will be for the next 20 years. The government are smart, there not going to cut everything or increase tax,vat etc in just one year because they would have a riot on there hands. Ever year it will be cut worse and worse for the next 20 years. Household charge this year and next year we have property tax, water chargers etc. All I can say to people is get out while you can, don't tie yourself down to a mortgage and look for work abroad.

KINGVictor

Bannasidhe wrote: »

All very well and good - but what happens to those who lost well paid jobs but received the same SW as everyone else - will their front loading be backdated to reflect the contributions the paid or will their rates just be cut if they haven't managed to secure employment?

My sister began work in 1977, up until 2 1/2 years ago she was unemployed in that time for a total of 3 weeks in the mid 80s. She had a very highly paid job in the construction sector since 1990 - her boss went bankrupt in 2009. She claimed JSB part-time for a year while working part-time. Her JSB has now run out and she is claiming JSA but still working one day a week - her hours were cut back. There are many people like her - should her money be cut?

What about people who already have degrees up to and including post-graduate. College is not an option for them unless they can pay fees? They will also not get any form of grant of BTEA.

I know of 7 people with PhD's, funded by the Irish taxpayer, who cannot get jobs in Ireland - all of them are looking to emigrate. Do we fund more people to get university qualifications so they can also emigrate?
This doesn't even take into consideration the fact that our 3rd level institutions are so chronically underfunded that they are on the point of collapse. I know - I work in an Irish university and we can't even afford photocopies any more.

FÁS courses are a joke and everyone know it.

Take a short-term contract and then when it ends wait up to 15 weeks for your 'repeat' claim to be processed?
What do people live on in the mean-time?

Good post and I agree with most of what you are saying but the underlined above is an exaggeration.